The discussion over under "Expecting" got distracted (no! really?) by the question, "Where can a Vampire go and not go?"

Examples: A vampire can go in an apartment building without asking the owner, but not the apartment, and ditto with hotel/motel rooms. He can go in a private gun club without being invited. He can go into a private casino without being invited, but not into a private poker game.

Some times, I just give up; what's the darn rule, anyways? (Thanks to KAM the Merciless for suggesting this go in the Sink)

Mark, that episode I refered to where Angel entered Faith's hotel room is 'Consequences'It takes place in the second half of S3.

The only explanation I have for the facts (as I see them) is that there is a distinction between hotel\motels and more permanent accomadation such as apartment\houses (which may constitute a home).

The contradictions we see in other parts of the rules don't help of course. ie. Doyle says in ep1 'City of . . .' that Angel should know he wasn't a vamp as he entered Angel's apartment uninvited. Then Angel in the same episode enters Russell's house uninvited. That episode also implies that as the owner of Tina's apartment block Russell could access her room uninvited.
Doyle then says in a later episode that it's only where the apartment (?) is occupied by a living person that they need an invite.

It's really Wesley's comment in 'Somnabulist' (sp?) that's muddies the water, when he tries to invite Angel in. He's seeing the need to do this throws my arguement out but I'd find it surprising to think that any mortal can invite a vamp into the home of another. It should be the owner\occupier, as in 'The Lost Boys' (ie. Man of the house)

Unfortunately it looks like there is no simple answer.

BTW, when did the private poker game come up, I can't remember that.

If the poker game came up after 'Expecting' I may not have seen it yet as I'm watching from Ireland. Can you be careful with spoilers if so. Thanks.

It is an episode you haven't seen yet. But you're not terribly far behind, what with the reruns taking over this season. Angel stands in a hall and asks a man to invite him to a poker game.

Russel was the vampire? Angel can enter another vampire's lair. I'm just not clear on the whole "who is the owner" thing. Can a landlord give a vampire carte blanche to enter any room in the building? Maybe the answer is that anybody with a soul can invite a vampire into any dwelling they're standing in, whether they're living there or not. No "owner" distinction.

KAM the Merciless? Where did that come from, Mark?

It could be psychological. If you think of the house, apartment, cave, etc., as your home, you might have a certain expectation of privacy, where a motel room is just a temporary place to hang your hat.*

An apartment building owner rents to different people & expects that they will occasionally allow other people in, so he doesn't need to invite a vampire in.

Of course, this is flawed a well. In the Buffy episode where Angelus kills the teacher, the teacher is surprised that Angelus is on school grounds & he says that the sign invites people in. (So now my door mat says 'Enter, unless you're a vampire'. ;-)

POSSIBLE SPOILERS!!!
I don't remember Angel being unable to enter a private poker game. Was that The Ring? Also was he unable to enter or was he just being polite?

In Buffy I got the impression that when you allow one vamp into your home, you allow all vamps. I could be wrong, but I thought that was being implied in the Buffy ep where they revealed this rule. (Don't know the name, sorry. It was the one where Buffy & the others had to perform the religious ceremony to keep Angelus from entering.) If I did interpret this correctly, then it causes a nit in the Angel episode Prodigal, where Angel can't get into the room where two vamps have already been invited.

That same Buffy episode also said a vamp couldn't enter your car unless you invite them in.


*A trend in Vampire fiction for the last couple of decades has been to use the potential victims' beliefs.

If you believe a cross will protect you from a vampire it will, if you don't believe it won't.

In a bad Doctor Who story Haemophores from the future would get psychic headaches if someone believed in something strongly enough.

In the comicbook Vamps, the vamps were unable to drink the blood of a crazy homeless guy because he believed some paper & cardboard was a magical armor.

KAM the Destroyer: that's the episode. Angel repeats (several times) "I really think you should invite me in." That's the key phrase.

This bit about belief being important showed up in Fright Night, where Chris Sarandon mocked Roddy McDowell trying to use a cross. "You have to have faith for that to work on me."

KAM,
The episode with the ritual was 'Passion'.
If one vamp can enter then this doesn't mean that other vamps can. If you go back to BB&B in season 2 Angelus can enter Buffy's house but Drusilla can't. The same thing happens in S3 when Spike is in Joyce's house, Angel cannot enter (since his invite had been revoked in 'Passion')

The 'home' thing is what makes most sense to me or should I say 'seems' to tie in with the inconsistencies in the show.

BB&B was probably before I started watching. I don't remember Angelus trying to enter the house when Spike was invited in. Angelus didn't know that Spike was even there.

However, Cordy did seem to think that because she had given Angel a ride in her car that Angel & his vampire buddies could go for a joyride & I don't remember the Scooby Gang saying anything to indicate that was wrong.

Mark: KAM the Destroyer? Now you'e making me sound like a series of Arnold Schwartzenegger films. "Hear me now and listen to me later, little girly man. I'm going to... Stake you up."

KAM: You need to see "BBB"! Such a cool Xander episode. What made you start watching Buffy anyway? I'm curious. :)

On the "invitation" rule, it has to be a home, and an individual home at that. Witness Spike in "The Initiative." Public buildings are free access. As are other vampire's lairs - as discovered recently in an epsiode of Angel -- which is how Darla got into Angel's apartment in the first season Buffy episode "Angel" without an invitation.

It kinda scares me that I know this stuff.

The show, or shows, I used to watch were moved or cancelled. (Can't remember what they were right now, though.) So I thought I've give Buffy a chance. I think the first episode I saw was the one where Oz first became a werewolf. The WB was also rerunning a bunch of shows at the time on Mondays, so I did see some earlier ones, but I don't think BBB was among them.

Amazing irony that for being such demonic creatures, vampires need to be invited in before they can bring death & destruction. TPTB have a twisted sense of humor.

Rachgd: That makes sense, but I am going to have to watch the beginning of "The Ring" again to see if it disputes that interpretation. I don't remember where the poker game was. It might have been a hotel room.

KAM,
The Spike\Angel (in Buffy's house, with Joyce) episode was in early season 3. I won't describe the scene, it's too funny to spoil but watch out for it. It's called 'Lover's Walk' Spike is brilliant in it.

I was thinking of Spike in Joyce's house in Becoming, where Spike was willing to help Buffy while he and Dru left.

I don't remember Spike in Joyce's house during Lover's Walk, but the WB is on a UHF station here & the picture quality isn't always the best.

After posting last time I went to Buffy.com to read up on the first three seasons. Turns out that Phases, the first one I saw, preceded Bewitched, Bewildered & Bothered. Although I believe I started watching toward the end of the summer reruns, and they were showing an odd assortment of episodes, including Invisible Girl & Prophecy Girl, the last two eps of the first season. Go fig.

Hey, Keith, I found Buffy the same way-summer reruns! I think it was running against "Voyager" here early on. I picked it up the summer after the first season. I guess reruns aren't so bad, after all.

I think Vampires needing invitation comes from Dracula. I don't think there charms work either until you invite their evil into your home and life. It had more symbolism than the current "Punk cultist" vampires in Buffy TV universe.

Just saw the Buffy episode 'Real Me' Buffy says in it that only someone who lives in the house can invite a vamp in. This makes Wesley's invitation to Angel in 'Prodigal Son' useless (not that Angel needed it as the apartement was owned by a vampire).
It also raises confusion over how Angel got into the party in 'City of ...' unless the girl was allowed to bring someone with her.

I guess parties are an exception as a second season Angel ep has vamps walking into a party as well.

A party (without invitations--the paper kind) could be seen as an "Open House" where the invitation would be implicit

One thing to consider about the apparent contradictions in BTVS and ANGEL regarding the rules for vampire entry is that if the only basis for the contradiction is something a character says, the character may have just been mistaken.