(I haven't watched much of Angel, so)

Ah, so there are two reasons why vampires must feed, other than hunger. 1. Strenght, and 2. Higher mental functions will degrade without food. Somehow that seems kind of, well, limiting. I mean, it rules out the possibility of Vampires being sealed away, only to be unleashed centauries latter. Oh wait, they would just use demons for that anyways.

So, Fred and Gunn think they can take out three vampires by themselves? Why do we even have a Slayer then?

I get the sense that Slayers are only sent to areas, such as the Hellmouth, where vampiric or other demonic activity is nearing the apocalyptic level.

"I love you son -- now, get out of my house!"

Is Cordy becoming Angel's "White-Lighter"? I know that the WB has teamed Angel with Charmed mainly because Buffy is on UPN, but this is a bit much.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The whole point of having a Chosen one is because the rest of humanity are cows to Vampires. But if some guy and some girl (essentially) with little or no training can go around and kill Vampires en masse, why do we need a Chosen One? This is fast becoming the problem with the Buffyverse. Vampires are becoming too easy to kill. The Master would be nothing more than the villian of the week this year.

I think Gunn has had some training, he formed a gang and they trained all the time. Fred has obviously been training this summer. I think that most humans would be killed by vampires.

Gunn has clearly had training, and both Fred and Gunn are far better equipped to deal with vamps than vamps are to deal with humans, particularly weapon-wise. (If they ever wised up to the existence of Super Soakers and holy water, all their problems would be over.)

That's a good point Mathew, Water guns would be very efffective, I have never though about that before.

I don't know about that. Massive amounts of Holy Water would be hard to come by. You can't just bring a 5-gallon jug of water to your neighborhood Catholic Church every week and ask the priest to "bless it," especially if you're not Catholic.

Of course, there are certain Wiccan infusions called holy water. If they are as effective as the other, then it becomes a different matter.

You could always use a flammable liquid like alcohol or gasoline, then strike a match...

Amazingly, Angel's fantasies showed Connor as he looks presently & not as he looked 3 months ago. (Shame they didn't film the fantasy sequences at the end of last season.)

Is Justine played by a different actress here? She seemed different.

You can't just bring a 5-gallon jug of water to your neighborhood Catholic Church every week and ask the priest to "bless it," especially if you're not Catholic.

Who says the priest has to be Catholic? For that matter, who says that Fred or Gunn isn't?

My sister once told me that the novelization of the Buffy movie had Buffy walking into a church and asking a Preist to bless a six pack of Evian.

Holy water, according to the Pocket Catholic Dictionary is "Sacramental blessed by a priest, invoking God's blessing on all who use it. Blessed water is symbol of spiritual clesning, and its use is advised in moments of physical danger agaist temptations from spirtual enemies."
Eastren Rite Holy Water would presumably also work. Protestant Holy Water wouldn't work as the sacraments are a medium of blessings, and not blessed themselves. Why Vampires fear Christianity so much is one of the shows unanswerable questions, but I'm sure everyone has a theory.


Bunnies, Bunnies, it must be bunnies!

Regarding, why there is a Slayer, I think that, in the Buffyverse, there are enough ordinary humans who could slay a vampire in one-on-one combat, provided those humans have the proper training and weapons. However, I think that a Slayer is uniquely capable of slaying multiple vampires in repeated skirmishes. Additionally, a Slayer can handle various extra-strong demons and the occasional "big bad".

I agree with all those points. However, Vampires are stronger and faster than Humans, Gunn and Fred were carrying no relics, had no plans. I think if they are going to show humans fighting Vampires, it should be a little more than a street fight. Granted, these were probably young Vamps in LA, and not the Order Of Aulrelus in the maw of the Hellmouth. I mean, Vampires should be tough, it should take effort to bring even one down. But if that was the case, Angel wouldn't be possible as a show.

Protestant Holy Water wouldn't work as the sacraments are a medium of blessings, and not blessed themselves.

With the exception of most Anglican churches, I would think.

Vampires also usually have much better hearing than humans, but it always bothers me when, say, two people are conversing not far from a vamp and they're never heard by it! Or if they are then the vamp either never lets on, or if it deos then it'd probably come up with some plan of attack within the next few seconds or whenever.

Anyway, nice beheading by Lila! And gosh, doesn't Wesley's neck look all nicely healed now, without the slightest scar to show for his misfortune with Justine's knife? Of course, it could just be lighting and camera angles.

Who says the priest has to be Catholic? For that matter, who says that Fred or Gunn isn't?

The point of ny post was really in the phrase "every week," not in the example of the Catholic Church. Yes there probably other denominations that can supply the Holy Water, but even more that can't. Likewise, it is even less likely that everyone who fights vamps belongs to the "right" denominations than that none of them do.

Do you have to actually belong to the "right" denomination in order to use holy water? I don't recall the episode right now, but didn't Angel and co. once have an encounter with a nun who appeared to be rather familiar with the demonic world? Perhaps the various parishes in the LA area have an understanding that when someone asks for holy water for unspecified purposes, you give it to them, because it's probably for killing vamps?

Try and read Terry Pratchetts "Carpe Jugulum" which deals with vampires, and what happens when they wise up, and how many religious symbols there are... Very funny!

I have sort of an answer to the above discussion about holy water. A bunch of years ago, I read an X-Men where one of the characters (Storm) was bitten by Dracula. One of the other characters (Wolverine) made a cross with his claws against Dracula, but Dracula said it had no effect because Wolverine didn't believe in God. Storm at one point was affected by a Star if David worn by one of her teammates. Not that it's the same universe, or even true, but it could help the above discussion. Apparently you have to believe in the higher power that whatever you're using is a symbol for. Doesn't explain why in one Buffy ep Willow had a cross nailed to her wall, but...

a quote from the pratchett book :

In Ghat they believe in vampire watermelons, although folklore is silent about what they believe about vampire watermelons. Possibly they su-ck back.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum)

and some annotations from Pratchett Annotations

+ [p. 91] "'That is the double snake symbol of the Djelibeybian water cult,' he said calmly."

In Pyramids, the Djelibeybian high priest Dios had a staff with two serpents entwined around it -- possibly the same symbol. There are at least three distinct theories about why holy symbols repel vampires. The Catholic theory is that the repelling force is the faith of the holder, and the symbol merely focuses that faith -- so a symbol on its own, or in the hands of a non-believer, is useless. (This has produced some interesting interpretations of what a 'holy symbol' could be -- one film shows a yuppie repelling a vampire with his wallet.) The Orthodox theory is that faith is irrelevant -- it's God who is performing the miracle, not the wielder. The psychological theory, which Terry seems to be subscribing to here, is that the effect is entirely in the mind of the vampire.

and on how to get rid of vampires:

+ [p. 106] "'I believe that in Glitz you have to fill their mouth with salt, hammer a carrot into both ears, and then cut off their head.' 'I can see it must've been fun finding that out.'"

Terry is here parodying, but not even slightly exaggerating, the bewildering variety of ways of dealing with vampires in earth mythology. To give a taste of how abstruse these beliefs could become, here is a quotation from the alt.vampyres FAQ (held on alt.vampyres:

"Some Gypsies in Kosova once believed that a brother and sister born together as twins on a Saturday could see a vampiric mulo if they wore their underwear and shirts inside out. The mulo would flee as soon as it was seen by the twins."

+ [p. 154] "'... The blood is the life [...] porphyria, lack of?'"

Oats has crammed an impressive collection of vampire stories into one page of notes. "The blood is the life" is a catchphrase from Dracula; it is closely associated with the Christian view of the vampire -- just as the Christian gains eternal life through the sacrament of Christ's blood, so the vampire earns a perverted version of the same.

Porphyria is a very rare, genetic blood disorder, one form of which includes the symptoms of severe light sensitivity, reddish-brown urine and teeth, deformation of the nose, ears, eyelids, and fingers, an excess of body hair, and anaemia. It has been suggested that it explains some aspects of both vampire and werewolf legends.

about garlic:
+ [p. 247] "'Do onions hurt us? Are we frightened of shallots? No.'"

The hero of the classic 1954 novel I am Legend, the last living human on an earth where everyone else has become a vampire, actually experiments with this possibility.

I am Legend's been made into at least a few films, the only one of which I can remember right offhand is loosely based on it, starring Charlton Heston, in the 1971 flick, The Omega Man. This was at a time when horror flicks, whether about vamps or not, really, pardon the pun, sucked.

Anyway, most of the time, or at least it seems to me, films and TV shows involving vamps always have them being burned by touching a cross the protagonist holds, but what about a Star of David? Wouldn't that burn vamps or have some other negative effect on them as well? I've read lots of vamp novels and seen lots of vamp shows and films but I don't ever rememeber even once seeing anything other than a cross or sunlight burning vamps.

I haven't seen the movie myself, but on trivial pursuit, I think, the question is "in the polanski movie about vampires, why did dracula laugh at the cross?" and the answer was "Because he was jewish (not christian), so it didn't work". Can sb. confirm it?

In the X-File ep. about vampires who only want to live quietly and pay their taxes, Mulder tries to make a cross out of breadsticks, but it doesn't work at all.

the X-files ep. I meant was "Bad Blood", Season 5, 12th. ep.

Constanze: from the Internet Movie Database entry for Fearless Vampire Hunters:

---

Quote:

[A young woman tries to fend off Shagail, a Jewish Vampire, with a cross]
Shagail: Boy have you got the wrong vampire.

---

Patterson: True, as some churchs in the Angelican Communion might bless water with that understanding.

This is something I think that is often forgotten. The "Blessed Sacraments" theory of Vampire repelling comes mostly from Bram Stroker, who was a Christian (Presumably still is) and wrote Christian Themes into Dracula. It may have orgins eariler than that, but the point is, that piece of folklore is rooted in a Christian symbolism.

To my knowlege, a Star of David is not an symbol of God or God's blessing. It's a modern symbol of the Jewish people, to my knowlege. A Vampire would have no reason to fear it than an American Flag.

Oh, as for the Buffyverse, it's best you don't ask that question.

I'm not sure that it's the religious meaning of the cross that harms vampires in the Buffyverse. After all, Willow has called upon various and sundry deities, and none of them has been the God of Israel. I tend to think that it's some mystical property inherent in the cross shape, or perhaps the results an ancient curse laid down on the first vampire and all his descendants. Or, you know, I should go to bed.

I don't think that Holy Water can kill vampires in the Buffyverse (unless it's ingested I guess, which doesn't explain why it didn't burn on the way down.)

Remember, in the episode where Angel had to go through the trials to save Darla, he walked on a floor of crosses and stick his entire arm into a bowl of Holy Water. Then again, the mysticism of the place could have protected his life.

I don't think that Holy Water can kill vampires in the Buffyverse (unless it's ingested I guess, which doesn't explain why it didn't burn on the way down.)

Remember, in the episode where Angel had to go through the trials to save Darla, he walked on a floor of crosses and stick his entire arm into a bowl of Holy Water. Then again, the mysticism of the place could have protected his life.

I refer you to the case of one Zachary Kralik (Buffy, "Helpless"), who took his pill with a tall glass of holy water and promptly disintegrated from the inside out.

I refer you to this part of my post:

(unless it's ingested I guess, which doesn't explain why it didn't burn on the way down.)

Why didn't it burn on the way down? Was that a nit on that ep?

Since when can vamps climb walls like Melissa did in this episode. Why does Angel bother with the grappling hook and rope?

Why was Angel cleanshaven when they opened the coffin? Can vamps control hairgrowth to conserve energy?

Gunn has a li'l goatee beard this season that he didn't have last season. Fair enough, but how did Angel know about it at the bottom of the sea? His dream should have featured Gunn still clean-shaven, as he was every time they'd seen each other before.

Patterson: The co-existance of various kinds of gods shouldn't really prove a problem. Most gods invoked in Willow's spells are of a rather parochial nature, and are within the confines of nature, as opposed to Ultimate Reality represented by Holy Triune God. So there is no flaw.

Granted, I think the creators just took standred Vampire lore and used it, and tossed in Magic as a plot element.

Holy water hurts vamps-ingested or not. See "Lovers Walk"-BtVS 3rd sesason.

From a while back:

Why didn't it burn on the way down? Was that a nit on that ep?

I think you missed my point: It *did* burn on the way down.

Are you sure? IIRC, he took his pills, drank, had a look of relief on his face, and then started to feel it. It should have burned as soon as it hit his mouth.

Possibly he just didn't notice at first. Quite insane, after all, and in a good bit of distress because of not having the pills. It *did* work quite quickly

Plus, he liked pain. Maybe he just thought it tasted good until he realized "This is not good."

>> And gosh, doesn't Wesley's neck look all nicely healed now, without the slightest scar to show for his misfortune with Justine's knife? Of course, it could just be lighting and camera angles. >>

Actually, in the scene where it's revealed he's got Justine prisoner, you can see a thin scar on the righthand side of his neck.

Of course, why a Vampire needs to take pills is a really good question. Like why does God need a spaceship?