Interesting Developments, huh? Me, I haven't suspected her parents since I read John Douglas' The Cases that Haunt Us. Douglas, a former FBI profiler, illustrated a convincing case that they were not involved in the murder. I'm glad to see that that conclusion may be bearing out as we speak.

The suspect claimed today that "he loved her", he was with her when she died, and that she died accidentally. She was strangled- how is someone accidentally strangled?

It will be interesting to see how exactly this alleged killer knew her-did he see her on the beauty pageant circut?

It will be interesting to see WHY ANYONE CARES!!

A murder is always hard to cope with, but I doubt most murdered people get this much hype years after the fact...

Did he see her on the beauty pageant circut?

Well, the suspect, John Mark Karr, was fired from his teaching job for posession of child pornography. Also, he's admitted to having sex with JonBenet while she was alive, before he "accidentally" killed her. I don't know if he was a child beauty pageant groupie, but that will probably come out. Now, excuse me while I vomit...

I suppose he may argue that she was killed in sex gone wrong?

It has been speculated today that Mr. Karr is confessing to this just to get attention or fame. His ex-wife has said she thought he was living in Alabama at the time, though the local police there had no comment when asked that by the media.

maybe he strangled her trying to keep her quiet...

of course, the parents involvement in all this is still up in the air...

I had no idea until today that Patsy Ramsey died two months ago of ovarian cancer.

I speculate the parents sold their daughter to the criminal for money.

(Why not? Child prostitution ain't just in the Far East ya' know!)

Why would they need money? The Ramseys were pretty well off as it is, plus if they were as venal as you make them out to be, why would they risk their daughter's pageant career?

Anyway, what evidence do you have for such speculation, a speculation not supported by the suspect's assertions?

I'm hoping there is some direct evidence linking this guy--he's got obsessed fruit loops nut written all over him.

Refresh my memory had JonBenet been raped before she was killed?

John A. Lang: I speculate the parents sold their daughter to the criminal for money.
Luigi Novi: C'mon, John. JonBenét's father made got over $118,000 just as a bonus at work the year she was murdered. They lived an aflluent Colorado lifestyle. Does this really make sense to you?

Bajoran: Refresh my memory had JonBenet been raped before she was killed?
Luigi Novi: According to the Wikipedia article on her that I linked to in the first post on this board, she may have been.

I've been in Denver the past week, and this thing is all over the news. The PCT nuts are all over this one.

[for those who don't know, PCT = Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist"]

The local news said she was killed for her life insurance money, when she got it.Anyone know her life insurance money?

How could Karr get her life insurance money?

no, Benn, her parents..not Karr, unless Karr is related to them in some way

I'm not Benn. If I was Benn, I would type Benn in the section that said "Username" instead of Mike. My name is Mike. And what? Her parents hired Karr to kill the girl for insurance money? That makes no sense:

a. they didn't need the money
b. if they just wanted money, they would have made a lot more with a live girl
c. why would they kill the girl in such a way that would incriminate them?

because there is no suvh thing as bad publicity...

opps, sowee Mikec

Killing your daughter doesn't bring mere publicity. It brings a dead daughter, jail time, and in the case of Colorado, the death penalty. And I would point out that being thought of as a murderer may be the exception to that rule about bad publicity. It didn't exactly help O.J. Simpson or Robert Blake's images.

but it helped many a politcian...

Which politician has gained publicity in their favor from being accused or suspected of murder?

Was Mr. Karr actually under arrest in Thailand, or just in custody? I know he is being deported on a visa violation and not on an extradition request, because the Thai government wanted him out of the country. According to MSNBC he worked in a Christian school for two weeks and was fired because he was too strict.

Explanation: Sometimes having a lot of money just ain't enough for some people.

Remember: Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Which politician has gained publicity in their favor from being accused or suspected of murder?

Osama Bin Laden...

How did the Ramseys have "absolute power"? By that logic, anyone in power or rich would be guilty of every crime committed.

I don't believe her parents killed her. I do believe that her parents did know who had killed her for money. Also I believe they (her parents) helped him flee the country and to hide. I honestly don't know if the killer is Karr because there are so many incosistances in his confession but we'll see what happens.

It will be interesting to see WHY ANYONE CARES!!

They care because:

1.) The media disgustingly and sensationally hype the hell out of stories like this to win ratings or sell copies, most especially the tabloid rags who always claimed to "have evidence" of who the real killer(s) is/are (I'd hate to see where all they're gonna go with this, though I can imagine) but never actually tell you, and;

2.) She was a cute little blonde 6yo white girl that Mommy dressed up to look way too mature for her age in hopes of winning some stupid beauty contests that the girls were never given any choice in wanting to enter or not anyway, and as we all know the media focuses a hell of a lot more on missing or dead attractive white girls and women than they do those of any other color.

John A. Lang: Explanation: Sometimes having a lot of money just ain't enough for some people.
Luigi Novi: This makes no sense. An already affluent couple is going to kill their younger child because their money isn't "enough"? What the hell does that mean? Just how much money would they have gained from this that would've been so much more than what they already had and from the money their occupations were to continue earning them?

John A. Lang: Remember: Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Luigi Novi: And what "power" are you referring to on the part of the Ramseys? Can you actually show how these principles actually apply specifically to them? Because some like more money or because power corrupts means that any given parent of a murdered child is the one who killed them? Shouldn't such conclusions be based on evidence, rather than cliches?

Dotter31: Which politician has gained publicity in their favor from being accused or suspected of murder?

Polls Voice: Osama Bin Laden.
Luigi Novi: Osama bin Laden isn't a politician.

Bajoran: Also I believe they (her parents) helped him flee the country and to hide.
Luigi Novi: Based on what evidence?

Further explanation: Greed is one of the most powerful vices. Whether it be money or sex...some people just can't get enough of it.
They'll do anything to get more of it.
Nothing is wrong with being wealthy...its just how you obtain that wealth is in question.
Including...selling a child for sexual favors.

Nothing is wrong with sex, as long it's with the other person's consent...and with a person close to your age. (within 10 years)


In my opinion, the Ramseys were very sick people to exploit their child to win those beauty contests by having her dress up in those costumes which were inappropiate for a child that age. They were practically saying, "Come and sexually exploit our child!"

Wasn't Patsy Ramsey an ex-beauty queen?

Polls Voice: Osama Bin Laden.
Luigi Novi: Osama bin Laden isn't a politician.

Right. Osama has never held any government office or attempted to hold one. Terrorism is not a form of politics.

Bajoran: Also I believe they (her parents) helped him flee the country and to hide.
Luigi Novi: Based on what evidence?

Luigi, belief does not necessarily require evidence. I can believe there's an invisible dragon in my garage. But until I claim it as a fact (and Bajoran didn't), no evidence is required.

Nothing is wrong with sex, as long it's with the other person's consent...and with a person close to your age. (within 10 years) --JAL

Not that I disagree with that statement, but many celebrities break that ideology already.


Polls Voice: Osama Bin Laden.
Luigi Novi: Osama bin Laden isn't a politician.

Dotter31: Right. Osama has never held any government office or attempted to hold one. Terrorism is not a form of politics.

bin Laden is a politician, he's just not an elected one. He leads, manipulates, represents people...

This isn't really the thread for a discussion on what constitutes a politician so I'll cease any further comments on it. If someone knows which thread would be good to have that discussion, I'm open for discussing it there.

Bajoran: Also I believe they (her parents) helped him flee the country and to hide.
Luigi Novi: Based on what evidence?

Luigi, belief does not necessarily require evidence. I can believe there's an invisible dragon in my garage. But until I claim it as a fact (and Bajoran didn't), no evidence is required.

ScottN, your invisible dragon is hereby protected by the endangered species act, from this point on, you are not permitted to disturb the habitat of this invisible dragon.

John A. Lang: Further explanation: Greed is one of the most powerful vices. Whether it be money or sex...some people just can't get enough of it. They'll do anything to get more of it.
Luigi Novi: But you haven’t explained the evidence upon which you base the conclusion that this is what the Ramseys did.

John A. Lang: Nothing is wrong with being wealthy...its just how you obtain that wealth is in question. Including...selling a child for sexual favors. Nothing is wrong with sex, as long it's with the other person's consent...and with a person close to your age. (within 10 years)
Luigi Novi: I don’t think anyone is debating this, since this is not pertinent to the topic of this thread.

John A. Lang: In my opinion, the Ramseys were very sick people to exploit their child to win those beauty contests by having her dress up in those costumes which were inappropiate for a child that age. They were practically saying, "Come and sexually exploit our child!"
Luigi Novi: I also think that child beauty pageants are inappropriate.

But that has nothing to do with murdering her.

That someone might do one thing that some disapprove of (but which is not illegal), it does not follow that they would do a completely different, illegal, and far more serious crime like murder.

ScottN: Luigi, belief does not necessarily require evidence. I can believe there's an invisible dragon in my garage. But until I claim it as a fact (and Bajoran didn't), no evidence is required.
Luigi Novi: Granted, but obviously one should not draw conclusions empirical matters, such as the question of who murdered someone, based on “belief”.

Luigi, could we have a board (or could you suggest an appropriate one) to discuss whether or not OBL is a politician, or perhaps the more general issue of the definition of a politician?

Feel free to delete this message after you read it.

Done.

Amazing how bin laden can come out of a celebrity murder case... Next we'll find out he's also a suspect...

Anyway, getting back to the jonbenet ramsey murder, is this getting more hype than the OJ murder?

Yeah, but it's in Denver, so it'll be easy to find a slow white Bronco...

Ducks and runs

This is my theory on what happened...

1. The criminal in this case saw JoBonet in a child's beauty pageant and wanted her for "his pleasure"

2. He contacted her parents for "sexual favors" from JoBonet for a great deal of money.

3. The parents agree & take the money.

4. JoBonet's parents "arrange" JoBonet to be "conveniently" in their basement that night.

5. The crime is done...JoBonet dies.

6. JoBonet's parents plan the "coverup"...I mean...what "good parents" would sell their child for sexual pleasure...right?

Granted...it may not be "evidence" as such...but it's certainly plausable...and I wouldn't be too surprised if it did happen that way.

ScottN, don't be silly, its the grassy knoll...

Didn't the Ramsey's also have a son? Why not sell him too?

Wasn't she worth more money alive on the beauty pageant circut? Why settle for the one-time payment?

Selling your little child of either gender for sex is wrong on so many levels and whether that led to accidental or intentional death the parents should still be held liable and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law, as should the child rapist if there actually was one. I don't know what happened 10 years ago since of course I wasn't there but I think JonBenét's death probably was accidental and maybe her parents made some deal with, or was deathly threatened by, the rapist, if there was one, which is why they claimed not to know anything about it.

This is all just speculation of course.

John A. Lang: Granted...it may not be "evidence" as such...but it's certainly plausable...and I wouldn't be too surprised if it did happen that way.
Luigi Novi: It's not evidence at all. It's a scenario that you describe, and yes, the scenario is certainly "plausible" in the sense that such things do occur, but you have not explained what information exists that this is actually what happened with the Ramseys. That such a thing does occur in general, it does not follow that therefore, ipso facto, it occured in this case.

Dotter: Didn't the Ramsey's also have a son? Why not sell him too?
Luigi Novi: Perhaps John Lang thinks that the criminal in question wouldn't be interested in Burke because he only interested in girls?

Luigi,

My belief is based on the fact I have a couple of friends who are police detectives. One works is SEX Crimes and the other is a Detective Sargeant. The three of us have been debating this case since it happenend. And for the record I am not in law enforcement. I am a assistant manager at a bookstore. They have a different insight into the case and for the record they don't have any official reports about the JonBenet case this is more speculation. The only way the killer could have been free this long is if he had major backers to get him out of the country. The Ramsey's had turned Jonbenet into a sex symbol and child pornography is a huge industry in this country. It would have been very easy for a pervert to get a hold of video tapes of the pageants and track down where they lived. My friend the Sex Crimes detective said the child beauty pageants draw the absolutely the worst element of the population. Girls who's only worry should be which new Barbie outfit to buy instead they are paraded around like hookers in some cases. The three of us believe that Karr is not the killer a player in this but not the killer. My beliefs may turn out to be faulty but they are still my beliefs.

Possible evidence...

If the crime happened in the Ramsey's basement...wouldn't there be some "noise" going on? And if so, why didn't any of the Ramseys get up to see what was going on?

Why? Because they knew what was going on.

Withholding evidence is a crime.

Child prostitution is a crime.

Therefore...these items could be considered evidence to indict the Ramseys.

John,

It was a huge, bleepin' house. It was deep in the basement, with 2 empty floors between where JonBenet was found and the family's sleeping area.

Think "Mansion" (or maybe McMansion).

Do you have evidence that the Ramseys withheld evidence or prostituted their child (in an illegal manner)?

ScottN--the noise could have traveled through the furnace ducts.

Bajoran: My belief is based on the fact I have a couple of friends who are police detectives. One works is SEX Crimes and the other is a Detective Sargeant. The three of us have been debating this case since it happenend. And for the record I am not in law enforcement. I am a assistant manager at a bookstore. They have a different insight into the case and for the record they don't have any official reports about the JonBenet case this is more speculation.
Luigi Novi: In the first place, the identity of the murderer is a question of empirical fact, not "belief". In the second place, with all due respect, Bajoran, none of what you've explained here constitutes evidence in favor of your theory, since, because it is not based on actual reports, it is colored by personal perception and/or biases. This does not illustrate that it was the Ramseys who killed JonBenét.

Bajoran: The only way the killer could have been free this long is if he had major backers to get him out of the country.
Luigi Novi: Untrue. Leaving the country requires nothing more than a plane ticket and a passport. If the murderer had not yet made the suspect list during the initial investigation (and indeed, there were charges the police made big errors in the case), then leaving the country would've been easy.

And even if this were true, it does not follow that the "backers" had to be the Ramseys. Are they the only ones in the country who have money? For that matter, who’s to say that the murderer could not have money of his own?

Bajoran: The Ramsey's had turned Jonbenet into a sex symbol and child pornography is a huge industry in this country.
Luigi Novi: Non sequitur.

Just because some pervert may have come to see JonBenét as a sex symbol does not mean that that was her parents’ intent when they entered her into those pageants. The fact remains that there are many people who do not think that there is anything wrong with child beauty pageants, and who participate in them in good faith. They’re common in the South, where the Ramseys are from, and are considered akin to Little League, Cub Scouts, or Brownies. They entered JonBenét into those pageants because JonBenét had begged her mother to do so. Just because you and I find them in questionable taste does not mean that those who participate in them have consciousness of guilt, because they may indeed not share our opinion of them.

Just because perverts may be drawn to these pageants does not mean that therefore, that is the motive on the part of the parents who enter their children in them.

Bajoran: It would have been very easy for a pervert to get a hold of video tapes of the pageants and track down where they lived.
Luigi Novi: If that’s true, then that would be an argument in favor of the Ramseys, since by this admission on your part, the murderer could’ve found her on his own.

John A. Lang: Possible evidence...If the crime happened in the Ramsey's basement...wouldn't there be some "noise" going on? And if so, why didn't any of the Ramseys get up to see what was going on? Why? Because they knew what was going on.
Luigi Novi: Or, because basements are far enough below bedrooms (and when underground, sufficiently soundproofed) that any activity would not wake them, especially if that activity was someone applying blunt-force trauma (enough to hemorrhage the entire right hemisphere of her brain) and then a garrote to a 6-year-old girl. Given that John and Patsy’s bedroom was on the third floor, and the room in the basement where JonBenét was found was two rooms away from the room with the staircase that led up to the first floor (their basement was composed of about 7 different rooms), this is hardly difficult to believe. Why you assume that any of this had to have produced noise, when the assailant could’ve easily cut off any cries for help on JonBenét part, I don’t know.

As John Douglas writes in The Cases That Haunt Us:

Inside, I observed that because of the inherent design of the house and the additions the Ramseys had made, the flow from one part of the home to another was choppy. You couldn’t walk from one room to another without coming to a dead end…Two staircases led from the first to the second floors, one being the spiral set where Patsy had found the ransom note. You would need some agility to carry a large package or something the size of a six-year-old up or even down those stairs. The master bedroom, converted from the attic on the third floor, seemed tucked away, removed from the rest of the house. John had work space up there, and her and Patsy had elaborate separate bathrooms and closets.

JonBenét’s bedroom was typical for a six-year-old in a middle or upper-middle-class family. I noted quite a few dolls and memorabilia of her pageants. Any sound coming out of this room, even a rather loud one, would be difficult to hear upstairs and over in the other wing in the Ramseys’ bedroom. A noise from the first floor would be even more difficult, and anything coming from the basement would be virtually impossible to hear up on the third floor.

As a test, I had one of [investigator Ellis] Armistead’s investigators go into JonBenét’s room and count to ten, gradually increasing his volume as he counted. We stayed up the master bedroom. We could not hear him clearly until he reached number five. I also noted that the house had about a half dozen entry doors on the first floor and that JonBenét’s room had a balcony that you could reach with a small stepladder or by standing on a garbage can.

John A. Lang: the noise could have traveled through the furnace ducts.
Luigi Novi: JonBenét wasn’t killed in the furnace room. She was killed in the wine cellar, which was next to the furnace room, or boiler room, and separated by a door that could’ve been closed. No indication is made in the schematics or descriptions of the house that there are any furnace ducts leading from the wine cellar (or even the furnace room) to the Ramsey’s bedroom, or from JonBenét’s bedroom to their bedroom (which, as aforementioned, were in separate wings of the house). Also aforementioned was the fact that Douglas investigated the house and determined that sound, particularly if it were the muffled cries of a child, could not be transmitted from one bedroom to the other, much less from the wine cellar to the master bedroom.

John A. Lang: Withholding evidence is a crime. Child prostitution is a crime.
Luigi Novi: You have not established that the Ramseys withheld evidence, much less that they have committed child prostitution.

ScottN: It was a huge, bleepin' house.
Luigi Novi: Five thousand square feet on all four floors.

And watch your mouth, young man. Such language…

ScottN: It was a huge, bleepin' house.
Luigi Novi: Five thousand square feet on all four floors.

And watch your mouth, young man. Such language…


He had to use bleepin because he's unable to count that high...

I assume that was not a flame, right?

The guy's worked in the military defense and computer software industry. I think he knows how to use numbers.

They withheld evidence by not telling the police what really happened....that they sold their daughter for sexual purposes for money...which is...child prostitution.

Hey! I count real good. One, Two, Five!

No, that wasn't a flame. I know better to flame a person who possesses the knowledge to launch a thermonuclear warhead at me while I sleep...


Flaming Luigi however...

Can someone refresh my memory. Did the Ramseys have any other children besides JonBenet?

John A. Lang: They withheld evidence by not telling the police what really happened....that they sold their daughter for sexual purposes for money...which is...child prostitution.
Luigi Novi: You have not established that they did not tell the police what "really" happened, nor have you established that they sold their daughter for prostitution. You are fabricating actions on their part that they haven't even been accused of by the police, without providing any information that shows they committed these actions. This is not what evidence is.

Bajoran: Can someone refresh my memory. Did the Ramseys have any other children besides JonBenet?
Luigi Novi: JonBenét's older brother Burke was nine at the time of her murder, and is now 19 or almost 19. John Ramsey also had three other children from his first marriage: Melinda, John Andrew, and Elizabeth (called "Beth"). Beth and a friend died in a car accident in Chicago at the age of 22 on January 8, 1992. The Ramsey's private Beechcraft was named for her.

Oh, Polls Voice:

I also count down real good!

John, you say that the Ramseys sold JonBenet for money. You say your evidence is because the Ramseys witheld evidence...evidence that they sold JonBenet for money. Do you see how circular your logic is?

Please see the SCO/IBM case for another example of that.

MikeC...I'm just glad to have some kind of logic. Circular or otherwise.

Luigi...I apologize...I can't think of anything else to say regarding the case. I'm not an attorney nor do I have hard evidence to convict the Ramseys...all I know is...I find it VERY HARD to believe that the Ramseys let JoBenet sleep in the basement unattended that night rather than sleeping in a safe bedroom upstairs and then saying "We don't know what happened" (or something similar) The point is: THEY KNEW.

If Mrs. Ramsey was the mastermind behind this, she is in the "ultimate eternal prison".

John, you can believe anything you want, but I'd rather see some evidence. I agree, though, that the full truth has yet to be revealed.

I just heard that the police have uncovered evidence that Karr was going to have gender reassignment surgery. There is something definelty wrong with this guy. I also just heard that Karr had a first class flight on his way back to the United States from Thailand. I say his flight back should have been in coach in handcuffs and leg irons the entire way back. How dare a alleged murderer get the first class treatment on a extradition flight.

He got first class treatment because the police were hoping that if he was comfortable, he would be more willing to talk, AND by not handcuffing him, he or his lawyer could not claim he was being forced to talk. It's a psychological trick.

(Also, from what I understand, the flight did not have distinctions between first class and coach)

He flew business class, not first class.

I wish I got cavier and roast duck etc for my last meal .

In the old days it was customary for the prisoner to request a final meal.

Based on Karr's body language during his interview in Thailand, and the fact that there are a few incosistancies in his confession, there is more going on here that has been revealed. He certainly fits the profile, and there are many undetectable substances out there, but to say her death was an accident I don't buy. Karr was a teacher and had some gender issues but I don't see where he got the money to "rent" a beauty queen from her parents and then "accidentally" kill her. He said he was there, fine, but I don't see him mistreating JonBenet beyond molestation/sex.

Now they say he was with his family on that night.

But his email address is marked as his sn the day she died.

uh uh

Now they say he was with his family on that night.

But his email address is marked as his sn the day she died.

His wife has claimed she was with him from the get-go.

What the heck does your second sentence mean?

John A. Lang: Luigi...I apologize...I can't think of anything else to say regarding the case. I'm not an attorney nor do I have hard evidence to convict the Ramseys...all I know is...I find it VERY HARD to believe that the Ramseys let JoBenet sleep in the basement unattended that night rather than sleeping in a safe bedroom upstairs and then saying "We don't know what happened" (or something similar) The point is: THEY KNEW.
Luigi Novi: They didn't let her sleep in the basement. After visiting their friends Fleet and Priscilla White on Christmas Day, they arrived home shortly after 9pm. JonBenét, already asleep, was carried by her father upstairs to her bedroom. Where did you get the idea that they put her in the basement? That's where she was likely killed, and where the killer was hiding. It wasn't where she was sleeping.

A conviction aside, evidence is needed to form any kind of conclusion. Without it, then on what basis can a conclusion be formed? And if one does not have some command of the facts and details of the case, then is it not reasonable to suggest that one reserve judgment on the matter until they gain some?

I know what you meant, but your first sentence should read: "They didn't let her sleep in the BASEMENT," Luigi.

Scott, I think anon is referring to the fact that Karr's e-mail address contains the date that JonBenet was killed (as in the address itself is the date, not that he sent e-mails on that date). This does not prove anything other than what is undisputed: that Karr is a disturbed person with an obsession with the case.

Big deal. I was online the same day that I went to the Angels game last year. Doesn't prove a darned thing.

Thanks, Mike. I fixed it.

Scott, it's not that he was online the day that JonBenet died, it's that his e-mail address is literally the date of her death, i.e. his address is something like "december251996@yahoo.com," or whatever. Again, this is absolutely no proof of anything other than he is a very obsessed individual.

thanks MikeC.ScottN should change his sn to I dont believe a thing they say!

Llol

You know, not everyone uses AOL, so not everyone knows that "sn" means "screen name". In fact, quite a few of us despise AOL and refuse to have anything to do with it.

ScottN probably has a secret contract with MSN Messenger...

Taken to Computer Annoyances in the Sink, before Luigi does it for me

OK, Actually, it's moved to "This may seem Dumb but... Computer Science Edition 2.0"

I read somewhere that Patrica Cornwell was throwing in her two cents about this case within the last week, did anybody catch what she said? She's probably plugging a new book or something with her non-expert opinion but I'm curious what she had to say.

er, MIkeC, I think that's how they caught him, with that date in question

How is she a non-expert? She's a former forensic scientist who worked as a technical writer at the Virginia Medical Examiner's office, she helped establish the Virginia Institute of Forensic Science and Medicine, and serves as its Chairman of the Board. I know she didn't work in an official medical capacity at the VME office, but what did she major in in college? Couldn't she have studied the relevant subject matter, and adhere to the same procedures as journalists do in investigating the matter?

That's what caused the police to zero in on him, along with other suspicious, obsessive behavior. It's not really evidence and to this point, the only evidence the police are admitting to is Karr's confession. In fact, yesterday investigators admitted that the investigation was just in its infancy and that Karr was basically arrested so he wouldn't flee.

I've heard the evidence at this point is more likely to prove he didn't do it than did...

Isn't that guilty until proven innocent? The only evidence I've seen that proves that Karr was the killer and not some obsessive psycho is his own confession. If they could match handwriting (which they are working on), if they had DNA evidence, if someone could place him in Denver at the time...

Which is why his PD asked to seal his handwritten note asking for a PD, so it wouldn't go out to the media.

My apologies Luigi, or rather Patricia, but from what I gathered on the board regarding her books it sounded that she was just an author with an interest in such things. It appears I misread that board. I'd be more interested to hear what John Douglas has to say but did anyone catcher her statement?

Well, even if she was "just an author", again, couldn't she theoretically research the subject, and utilize expert consultation in reaching her conclusion?

Of course, but couldn't anybody review the facts and draw conclusions? Of course not many people want to hear from those who have no experience in criminalistics but its anybody guess at this point; especially since most of us are only privy to what the news tells us.

Well, that's what I meant: Anyone can draw their conclusions, so long as they have an adequate command of the facts.

The DNA does NOT match. I just heard on 92.3 FreeFM, and later confirmed when I turned on CNN, that the DNA taken from Karr's saliva and hair does not match the DNA found on the blanket that covered JonBenét's body. As a result, no charges will be filed against Karr. How Karr was in possession of knowledge of details of the murder that were not made public remains unclear.

Bummer. I feel so bad for John Ramsey.

I certainly began to have my doubts in light of the alibi provided by his ex-wife and family, the inconsistencies of his story with the known facts of the case, but I'm still left wondering how in the world he had knowledge of details of the case that the public didn't know about?

Good question Luigi. Could it be that he was so "in love" (obsessed) with JonBenet that he was able to acquire such information? Hopefully Karr isn't done discussing this case before his lawyers move on to the child pornography charge.

I certainly began to have my doubts in light of the alibi provided by his ex-wife and family, the inconsistencies of his story with the known facts of the case, but I'm still left wondering how in the world he had knowledge of details of the case that the public didn't know about? - Luigi Novi

That's not a big mystery to me. I can easily envision the police interrogating Karr in such a way that his answers matched up with the facts that haven't been made public. "Isn't it possible that you strangled her in this way, rather than that way?" Karr: "Why, yes. Yes. That's it. I forgot. I strangled her this way, not that way." Or whatever. It's not something that hasn't been done before by the police in order to get a confession.

"First, we kill all the lawyers."

Benn, isn't that statement, kill all the lawyers an act of terrorism since you're threatening most of congress?

back to the legal issue at hand, so if Karr didn't do it, who did? Sounds like a JFK thing...

A JFK thing?

Benn, isn't that statement, kill all the lawyers an act of terrorism since you're threatening most of congress? - Polls Voice

In that case, I guess we're gonna have to ban all copies of Shakespeare's Henry VI, because that's what I'm quoting. (Or actually misquoting. See below.)

"First thing we must do, let's kill all the lawyers." - Dick the Butcher, Henry VI

Is it possible that Karr is acquanted with the actual killer? Perhaps not at the time, since he apparently wasn't in Colorado, but maybe they met later.

and Oj said Not Guilty also

No, Oj killed the girl for her life insurance money.

JFK thing

Noun - Event

1. as in one of those high publicity cases which will never be solved within our life time.

2. One of those cases whose publicity and celebrity stature causes untold number of conspiracy theories to explain it.

Okay, the second definition seems to apply here. Thanks, Polls.

All I can say is that the owners of the tabloids like "The Star" & "The Enquirer" are more that likely embarrassed for printing their "stories" before the DNA mismatch was confirmed.

So...Karr was nothing more than a publicity seeker.

(Bear in mind...I never mentioned Karr by name...I did however identify the guilty party as "the criminal")

And American Taxpayers are left footing the bill for this publicity stunt of Karr's. I say he should get a bill for the flight, the food and alcohol and the officers time who accompined him on the flight back to the US. I say deport him bach where we found him and let him finish the sex change operation he had been planning.

John, I doubt the editors and owners of those "publications" are capable of that emotion. If they were, I doubt those rags would exist.

And yeah, he should foot the bill, just like that retard runaway bride (Jennifer Wilbanks?), who cost the police a lot of money with her shenanigans.

Aren't there still criminal charges pending against Karr in California for his child pornography stuff?

Think they want to send him back to Thailand for that.

Nope, they're extraditing from CO to CA.

I can legitimately say that I was in a shopping mall female child beauty contest. Just a fun, local thing, not a Toddlers and Tiaras monstrosity.

Did you win?

Got my picture in the local town paper. Crown on my head and all. Like I said though, fun, local thing.

This is one of those cases where I doubt we'll ever know what really happened unless there's a detailed confession from the killer or there's a breakthrough in the science on the physical evidence.

Butch - I hate how the media trot out those pageant photos of JonBenet. Why can't they run "JonBenet looking like a normal kid" photos. That shopping mall contest i did - i was OK with wearing a crown, even a dress, but NO six year old should be caked in lipstick, eyeshadow and blush like JonBenet had to be.

The term “JonBenet” is often used as quick shorthand for a child beauty queen. the problem with a law against child beauty pageants is that said law could be struck down on constitutional grounds I.e. the First Amendment.

This year will mark the 25th Anniversary of JonBenet's murder, and her killer is still walking around free.

Patsy Ramsey, who died of ovarian cancer in 2006, went to her grave with the murder of her daughter still unsolved. And, to rub salt in the wound, she was under a cloud of suspicion at the time. Yes, the family was eventually exonerated, but she was dead by then.

And, like so many other cases in this forum, the passage of so much time makes it more and more unlikely that this case will be solved.

Tim - I wish we could see more photos of JBR as an ordinary kid in pants and shorts and without all that makeup.

That would be good, show that she was a human being first.

If they ever catch whomever killed her, I think they should castrate him, without anesthetic.

The USA and Canada should legally ban child beauty pageants. No preteen girl should be on a pageant stage in lipstick and blush being gawked at by middle aged adults.

>If they ever catch whomever killed her, I think they should castrate him, without anesthetic.>

What happens if the murderer turns out to be female.

Perhaps they should. However, this is a debate for another section of this forum

However, we don't know if keeping her out of such pageants would have saved JonBenet's life. Until the killer is caught and their motives uncovered, all we can do is speculate.

Having normal childhoods did not save Seana Tapp, or the Beaumont Children, from whomever killed them. Children fall victim to horrible people, it happens.

We can sit here and say "If only A had happened, instead of B. Then C would still be alive." However, until the actual facts come to light, it's just speculation.