Wow, she killed a classmate accidentally when she was seventeen by running a stop sign. I had no idea. According to Snopes, the event changed her, she's carried the weight of it ever since, and rarely speaks of it. I had no idea. That's awful. Anyone else ever hear of this?

Yeah, I had actually. It's a sad story. She's lukcy she's a Republican otherwise she'd NEVER have the opportunity to move on with her life because the media would be all over her for it.

It is a sad story, but I cannot let your insinuation go unchallenged. One word: Chappaquiddick.

My assertion was that if she was a Democrat she'd be crucified. Your comment just proved me right. Certainly the Right Wing Media (WSJ OpEd page, New York Post, Fox, Washington Times, Scaife's papers) would do their best to protray her (Laura Bush) as a cold-blooded murderer even though she was just a reckless teenager.

Yeah, because nobody picks on George W. Bush's past.

Well, Chappaquidick was pretty much this, the Kennedy's were able to expediate the investigation while everyone else was watching the moon landing. There are a lot of mysterious circumstances surrounding it, enough to keep Ted Kennedy from ever running for president.

Pesti: And Laura Bush's ex-boyfriend, who was stalking her, was murdered while Dubya was governer (IIRC). So? Only Democratic alledged murderers are allowed to run for office?

Are you accusing Bush of murder?

If he is, I think he's wrong. Bush isn't smart enough to commit a murder and get away with it.

Karl Rove on the other hand...

Bush has gotten away with murder: the deathes of over a thousand US servicemen and women in Iraq (and over 20,000 Iraqi civilians).

Rona, that means FDR was just as guilty, if not far more, for sending American troops to fight in WWII?

Or is it because this is viewed by some as an "illegal" or "greedy" war?

Sending servicemen to war who end up dying is not murder, regardless of whether the war is thought to be justified or not. This holds true for the men Clinton sent to Kosovo, and for the ones Bush has sent to Iraq. Calling this "murder" is just as wildly inaccurate, inflammatory, and argumentatively worthless as comparing them to Hitler.

What about condemning people to death instead of listening to clear-cut evidence of their innocence during his time as gov. of Texas? If it's not murder according to the book, at least I consider it killing in cold blood, because Bush wanted to look good as "tough-on-crime-guy" for his election as pres.

I was referring to Rona's reference to sending troops to Iraq.

As for his capital punishment policies while governor, I would like to see documentation of this, constanze. Do you have a link?

Sorry, no link. It was a TV documentation and/or articles in german magazines before the election, mentioning several cases were serious evidence pointed to innocence, but Bush simply refused to allow more time for a retrial, instead going ahead with the set execution date.

I've also read (but can't remember the links) about a group of US law professors and students who researched murder cases and found a much too high number of botched trials (not small technical details, but serious cases of overlooked/not admitted evidence for innocence etc.)
I think it was the report of this group that caused one Governor last year to declare an amnesty for all death penalty in his state when he retired (although this decision was criticized as cop-out, since a retrial would have cleared several people sentenced as guilty, which in turn might have enabled them to sue the state for miscarriage. Instead, they are still legally guilty, only pardoned.)

OOOOOOH! Well if it was on TV it must be true! People on TV, especially foreign TV, would never pull whatever out of their ass and toss it against the wall to see if it sticks. Nice to see Germany is maintaining its high "truth in media" standards started in the 30s.
On the other hand we also have to remember that in THIS country before a governor can pardon someone the case has to be recommended to him to review by a panel of judges. If they don't send it to him he can't pardon that person. This check and balance of the pardoning system is a result of left-wing governors who decided they had the right to ignore the law, and the will of the people, and toss out executions for oh so many years.
OTOH one governor that DIDN'T bother to take the advice of a judicial panel and pardon an execution was then governor Bill Clinton. I'm sure a certain GERMAN TV documentation and/or article "forgot" mention the case of Ricky Rector.

OOOOOOH! Well if it was on TV it must be true! People on TV, especially foreign TV, would never pull whatever out of their ass and toss it against the wall to see if it sticks.

Do I understand you correctly that you do not believe anything on TV? Because I know the difference between an in-depth report on a serious channel done by professional journalists researching the matter for some time - which I therefore find credible - and a news flash on a less reputable private channel, which is interested only in the viewing percentages, doesn't employ many serious journalists because of its reputation, has been wrong on other occasions, and presents a short piece in an info-tainment show- which I therefore disbelieve until I hear from other sources.

Besides, I mentioned also articles in magazines - I think one was "Der Spiegel", which has a very good reputation. Not yellow press. If you do not believe either TV or papers, where do you get reliable information from?

Nice to see Germany is maintaining its high "truth in media" standards started in the 30s.

I think that remark was uncalled for, and is besides the topic.

On the other hand we also have to remember that in THIS country before a governor can pardon someone the case has to be recommended to him to review by a panel of judges. If they don't send it to him he can't pardon that person.

Okay, I'll explain in more detail what I meant (I thought Americans would know what I was referring to, and I could be short).
- Several convicted people applied to Bush as governor as last resort not for a pardon, but for a delay of the execution and the chance for a fair re-trial, to examine either new evidence, evidence that had been over-looked, or serious problems like the whole trial being a railroad (is that the correct word?). All of the people cited in different reports were denied this chance and died.

Furthermore, the group of law professors and students I mentioned - I can't recall the name of the group, but I assumed most people would know what I meant - pointed to how trials done in a rush often led to people being declared guilty against strong doubts/evidence, and that in some US states, this rushing was worse than in others.

- The other problem was that - esp. in the case of a pair of brothers - international appeals were made to pardon them, because at the time of the crime, they were underage, and it was felt this was even more reason against death penalty. (Most europeans are against the death penalty for a variety of reasons and consider it an uncivilized, barbaric remnant of older times; but the execution of underage people is considered as a breaking of Human Rights, and therefore even worse.)

This check and balance of the pardoning system is a result of left-wing governors who decided they had the right to ignore the law, and the will of the people, and toss out executions for oh so many years.

This ranting has nothing to do with my point.

OTOH one governor that DIDN'T bother to take the advice of a judicial panel and pardon an execution was then governor Bill Clinton. I'm sure a certain GERMAN TV documentation and/or article "forgot" mention the case of Ricky Rector.

I have no knowledge of the case of Ricky Rector. And the TV reports were discussing Bush's methods, so a convict pardoned by Clinton wouldn't be part of the topic.

Many people over here find the idea worrying to send people to their death just for the "tough law-and-order image" at the next election, which was what the report was about. If you think it's alright, then we have different opinions

Luigi: Chris Hitchens was on Dennis Millr's HBO show a while back, and he said something (I think I'm getting the quote exact, I'll Google it later when Piper isn't trying to walk on the keyboard) that rang very true. In reference to how mnay people in Texas were executed during Bush's short term;

"He claims he reviewed every single case carefully, and that he beleived the evidence was clear in all cases. This is simply not possible. With as many people as he put to death, if he really reviewed every single case carefully, he wouldn't have had time to do anything else at all. He would've done nothing. He must've just been rubber stamping the things."

I may disagree with Hitchens on quite a few issues, but there's no denying that when he's right, he's fraggin' right.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/

So much for "OOOOOOH! Well if it was on TV it must be true!"

Adam: OOOOOOH! Well if it was on TV it must be true!
Luigi Novi: Constanze didn’t say anything it being true merely because she saw it on TV.

Adam: People on TV, especially foreign TV, would never pull whatever out of their ass and toss it against the wall to see if it sticks. Nice to see Germany is maintaining its high "truth in media" standards started in the 30s.
Luigi Novi: So your only attempt to question the credibility of the report is not to do so on its own merits, but on the basis of the fact that it was conducted in a country that was ruled by a genocidal and propagandistic regime sixty years ago? What, because of what Joseph Goebbels did, this must mean that all German newsmedia today are equally invalid? How do you figure this?

Brian Webber: Luigi: Chris Hitchens was on Dennis Millr's HBO show a while back, and he said something that rang very true. In reference to how mnay people in Texas were executed during Bush's short term;…I may disagree with Hitchens on quite a few issues, but there's no denying that when he's right, he's fraggin' right.
Luigi Novi: Yes, you said that he said this on the second Fahrenheit 9/11 board.

Btw, guys, I saw Ladder 49 today. It was great. My Spoiler-FREE review is here.

Luigi,

googling I found some links (most in German, of course):

here

Relevant quote translated:

Während George W. Bushs fünfjähriger Amtszeit als Governeur wurden in Texas 150 Männer und zwei Frauen hingerichtet, mehr als zweimal soviel wie in anderen Bundesstaaten. In vielen Fällen wurden dabei internationale Übereinkommen verletzt: So haben die USA 1972 den Internationalen Pakt über bürgerliche und politische Rechte ratifiziert, der die Hinrichtung von zur Tatzeit Minderjährigen untersagt. In Texas werden auch zur Tatzeit 17jährige hingerichtet.
During George W. Bushs five year period as governor 150 men and 2 women were executed in Texas, more than twice as much as in other states. In many cases international agreements were broken: In 1972, the USA ratified the International treaty about civil and political Rights, which forbids the execution of people who were underage at the time of the crime. In Texas, people who were 17 at the time of the crime are executed.

Die Wiener Konsularrechtskonvention garantiert ausländischen Angeklagten den Kontakt mit ihrer Botschaft. In den USA werden immer wieder ausländische Staatsbürger zum Tode verurteilt, denen dieser Kontakt nicht ermöglicht wurde, so auch die deutschen Brüder Le Grand, die Anfang 2000 in Arizona hingerichtet wurden

The Vienna Consular rights convention guarantees foreign nationals who are accused the contact with their consulate. In the USA, every so often foreign nationals are sentenced to death, who have been denied this contact, like the german brothers Le Grand, who where executed in Arizona at the beginning of 2000.

from the newspaper freitag

Am Pfingstwochenende hat die Tribune über die Todesmaschine in Texas geschrieben: Dutzende Todeshäftlinge seien dort in den vergangenen Jahren trotz vieler Verfahrensfehler, Unregelmäßigkeiten und möglicher Irrtümer hingerichtet worden. Verteidiger vom einem Drittel der 131 unter Bush Hingerichteten seien vor oder nach dem Todesstrafenprozess vom Anwaltsverband suspendiert, ausgestoßen oder getadelt worden. In 22 Fällen habe der Verteidiger bei der Verhandlung über das Strafmaß keine Zeugen oder Gutachter gerufen. 23 Angeklagte seien mit Hilfe der fragwürdigen Aussagen von Mithäftlingen zum Tod verurteilt worden. So bleibt es in "mehreren Fällen" nach wie vor ungeklärt, ob die Hingerichteten wirklich schuldig gewesen sind.

On pentecoast weekend the Tribune wrote about the death machine in Texas: dozens of death row inmates have been executed in the last years despite many errors during trials, irregularities and possible mistakes. Defendant lawyers of a third of the 131 which were executed under Bush were suspended, thrown out or admonished by the lawyer association before or after the death trial. In 22 cases, the defendant lawyers called no witnesses or experts during the trial about the degree of punishment. 23 accused were sentenced to death with the help of doubtful testimony by fellow inmates. So in "several cases" it's still unclear whether the executed people really were guilty.

this telepolis article has several links and mentions Gouvernor Ryan, Illoinois, who was pro-death penalty, but changed his mind after 13 death row inmates had to be released after painstaking work by relatives or lawyers. (In the same time, 12 people were executed in Illoinois.)

I hope this is a start for you.

Thanks, constanze.

Last night, NBC news ran a story on all the problems in Houston's crime lab. It seems they botched so many tests that it is likely that many people were sent to the electric chair based on false test results. Of course, none of this would trouble Bush. He eagerly puts to death black men and mentally handicapped people too.

As to Laura, tell your party to stop criticising Kerry's opposition to the Vietman War. Back then, you were a Democrat who opposed the war too. Stop being a hypocrite... or did you experience a holy conversion upon meeting G.W.?

Rona: Stepford Wives don't do that sort of thing (what is up with her eyes anyway?).

Well, Mrs. Kerry was a staunch Republican back in her day, so let's not start throwing stones in the glass house.

Actually, Rona, I heard that Bush has a nice white robe and a hood and throws burning crosses into yard of black people. Come on, Grow up, he doesn't do any of these things for the outlandish reason you insinuate, so stop trying. How can you expect anyone to be reasonable with you when you and unreasonable?

The way the American Criminal Justice System works is that the Courts find a man guilty, and decide on the punishment, including the death penalty. Even if he has the power to pardon and commute, the governor's inaction does not make him culpable.

Does anyone else think it is funny that Laura is going to lead an anti-gang involvement movement in the inner cities? I never knew she had that much street cred.

About as convincing as Nancy Reagan with her "just say no to drugs" campaign.

Laura Bush shows that she lacks an ounce of class in her new book. She even stoops to the level of criticising Hillary Clinton's redecorating of the White House as garrish and in bad taste. At least Hillary had the good taste to marry a very intelligent (Rhodes scholar!) man. Laura's choice of partnership with a mental midget says a lot about her taste.

Said very intelligent man proceeded to cheat on her several times. Your point?

That said intelligent man was very intelligent?

Well, he was elected president.