Charlie gets some of the best lines in this one.

"It was full of bees."
"I'd have thought Cs actually."

"It wouldn't be an irrational fear of bees if I could pull myself together it, would it?"

Black & White Watch: In the Pilot, Locke shows Walt a black and a white backgammon piece and says "two players, two sides, one is light, one is dark." In this ep, Jack finds a pouch on Adam/Eve that contains one white stone and one black stone, which he then hides from Locke.

I'm ranting again at the stupidity at work here.

Sayid of all the people, who worked out that the distress call went unanswered for 16 years, thinks it's important to keep the fire on the beach going??? If nobody came along to rescue the french woman - and knowing they're off course by a thousand miles - what's the use of pretending that a ship might come along any minute?

Aaargghhh. Why don't they tell everybody to get off their butts and put together a workable plan? Why are Jack and Kate and Locke and Charlie the only people of 46 that originally go to the cave?
Why is Sayid arguing against moving into the cave, instead of proposing a sensible plan:

- While some people carry the stuff into the cave, the others cut a broad path into the jungle, broad enough to be seen from above, others arrange stones/wood /metal from the wreckage to form letters on the beach. It's not as if Jack asked for an ultimatum.
For that matter, if gathering firewood and food is so important, why are Sayid and Mike the only ones doing it, if there are 46 people there???

I'd expect small groups of 4 to 5 people doing various tasks at once. Instead, we see the few heroes doing things one after the other.
I also wonder if Jack will consider that since he's the only Doctor around, he should be careful instead of rushing into danger head-on (like James T. Kirk).

Jack says this is the only freshwater spring they've found. I'm surprised nobody called him on that: they haven't surveyed the darned island yet!! They don't know how many springs there may be!!!

costanze: Jack says this is the only freshwater spring they've found. I'm surprised nobody called him on that: they haven't surveyed the darned island yet!! They don't know how many springs there may be!!!
If he used those exact words, then it's not like he's lying. They haven't found any others. He didn't say that it's the only one on the island.

I didn't mean that he was lying, but he was using it as argument for moving there. Since Sayid was against leaving the beach, he should've pointed out that there could easily be a freshwater spring 100 meters further down the beach!

For that matter, I'm still hoping there's a nice beach resort without radio just on the other side of the island, and they stumble on it in the last ep. ... (In the trivia part of the "Castaway" movie, TPTB said in the one packet Tom Hanks never opened contained a solar-powered satellite phone - which would've got him off the island right away!)

I don't quite understand what nationality the Suns are. The fat guy calls them "Chinese" (or does he simply mean Asian?), Mike says in the States these people, the Koreans, don't like Blacks.
If they're supposed to be Korean, why is the title referring to a japanese expression /novel about japan?

And if they're living in Australia - since they're boarding the plane in Sydney, with Jack, not in Singapur/Malaysia/Asia itself, how come the man doesn't speak English at all? Wouldn't he need to understand at least basic english to get along in daily life - to know when his plane is called, which gate etc.? (He doesn't have his wife as official interpreter along, either).

The House of the Rising Sun is also a legendary brothel in New Orleans.

Legendary in the sense that they're not sure if it really existed -- the eponymous song is based on old, old folksongs about it.

Sayid of all the people, who worked out that the distress call went unanswered for 16 years, thinks it's important to keep the fire on the beach going??? If nobody came along to rescue the french woman - and knowing they're off course by a thousand miles - what's the use of pretending that a ship might come along any minute? - constanze

We don't know whether the French woman is "missing" in the eyes of the world.

But we can assume that the passengers of the plane are missing in the eyes of the world. And if they are missed, then the chances that someone might be looking for them increases... no matter how off course they might be.

Also, the fact that no one has responded to the French woman's distress signal doesn't mean that they should abandon any attempt to reach out for help. I mean, the French woman hasn't turned off her distress signal... why should the passengers extinguish theirs?


I didn't mean that he was lying, but he was using it as argument for moving there. Since Sayid was against leaving the beach, he should've pointed out that there could easily be a freshwater spring 100 meters further down the beach! - constanze

Jack had a perfectly valid argument.

Again, he didn't say that there was no other freshwater on the island... he said this was the only source of freshwater that they've found.

What good does it do to argue that there might be another freshwater source closer to the beach? Find it... then talk about it. I mean, the passengers might wonder if the island might be the location used by for the next season of Survivor... but I don't see them pinning their hopes on that.

We don't know whether the French woman is "missing" in the eyes of the world.

I understood that she was missing since she was using this special emergency frequency on this special airplane transceiver radio.

But we can assume that the passengers of the plane are missing in the eyes of the world. And if they are missed, then the chances that someone might be looking for them increases... no matter how off course they might be.

A 1000 miles is way off course. And if the chances are against them - and there's a lot of water on the original course - then the search will soon be called off and the plane written off as "missing, likely on the bottom of the ocean".

Also, the fact that no one has responded to the French woman's distress signal doesn't mean that they should abandon any attempt to reach out for help. I mean, the French woman hasn't turned off her distress signal... why should the passengers extinguish theirs?

But I'm not talking about extinguishing theirs. I'm talking about getting off their butts and doing sth useful instead of waiting for rescue to show up.

And the very fact that it's still running means to me that she was never found.

What good does it do to argue that there might be another freshwater source closer to the beach? Find it... then talk about it. I mean, the passengers might wonder if the island might be the location used by for the next season of Survivor... but I don't see them pinning their hopes on that.

At the moment, they're pinning their hopes on being found quickly, despite being off-course and out of radio-range (and the reason Sayid gave about hopes being destroyed is stupid the longer this goes on). They would have a better chance of survival doing what common sense says. Instead, they act as if it's an either-or choice - either stay on the beach for rescue, or get to the caves to survive more than one day - when it should be: do everything necessary for survival: clear a path and set a signal and explore the whole island and have a fishing group and have a group collecting firewood and so on.

I mean, usually the odds are with more people to survive because you can distribute tasks, don't go crazy from loneliness etc. But with these guys, I'd go off alone in the first few days if I'd been on this plane!

And if they're living in Australia - since they're boarding the plane in Sydney, with Jack, not in Singapur/Malaysia/Asia itself, how come the man doesn't speak English at all?

How to do this without spoilers...

Why do you assume that because they were getting on a plane in Sydney that they lived in Australia? Do you assume that of all the Americans who were getting on the plane in Sydney as well? All it means is they were in Sydney and they were travelling to LA.

I assumed they live in Australia since otherwise it would be easier for them to board the plane along the way to the US in Singapur/Malaysia/ Asia, instead of flying to Australia, board the plane, and then fly back again.

As for the Americans: they all had a reason to be in Australia - fleeing from the police, wanting to go on a walkabout, looking for someone who was in Australia... I didn't assume they lived in Australia, but that they stayed for some time. Also, Americans don't have a language barrier when they board a plane in Australia (not much, I mean). Or do Sydney airport personnel and Australian hotels and taxi drivers all understand and speak Korean? (If the organisation Jin's father belonged to organized everything, that would explain it.. but the woman who tries to help Jin escape gives her the ticket and passport - how would this be possible then?)

The transition between their scenes at home and then suddenly the airport was just so suddenly. If there's additional explanation - like they lived in Korea for the last couple of years, flew to Sydney for some business and left the next day - then I'll have to wait till they show us.

In the flashbacks, everyone is Korean and everyone is speaking Korean. Doesn't seem likely it would mean they live in Australia. BTW, Jin is the man while Sun is the woman.

The episode "...in Translation" will give an explanation as to why they're in Australia.

Gordon - thanks for the info. I'll wait for that ep., then.

I understood that she was missing since she was using this special emergency frequency on this special airplane transceiver radio. - constanze

Perhaps so. But there's still a difference between her being missing and hundreds of other people.


But I'm not talking about extinguishing theirs. I'm talking about getting off their butts and doing sth useful instead of waiting for rescue to show up. - constanze

OK... poor choice of words... why should they allow their signal fire to extinguish. Sayid's right... keeping the fire going is important and "useful" (no matter how slim the odds are).

I find it annoying the way the characters don't share information, e.g. why did Jack hide the two stones from Locke? Granted, telling him wouldn't have meant anything at this stage (or to any episode I've seen since) but it does seem to have some significance. Admittedly not to Jack but there was no reason for him to hastily put the stones away when Locke entered. This lack of information sharing gets increasingly annoying in later episodes.

I missed this episode the first time around and saw it just last night, by coincidence, just before 'in Translation' aired. They do seem to be in Korea, but Constanze is correct, it seems that they are in Korea one night and the next they are trying to board the same flight Jack is attempting to get on. Wasn't Sun's dog with them the night before, that would indicate they were in Korea.

I find it annoying the way the characters don't share information, ...

Yes, rewatching the pilot, I thought this was a real stupid decision of the "leaders" to keep information to themselves, instead of sharing everything they know with everybody else. The reason given - that people would loose hope if they knew that the signal was unanswered for 16 years - is flimsy and grows more and more dumb the farther all these complications and twists develop.

I think TPTB decided on everybody keeping his/her discoveries secret to add tension, but I find it more annoying and bothersome to figure out if Jack told Charlie about this, or if Sawyer knows that about Sayid, or does Locke know about this already, or learn it only later...

Where did they get the axe from? Would an axe normally be on a plane, especially post 9/11 - or have I missed something and they found it on the island?

I think that you can still check it in your luggage that's stored under the plane.

You mean the axe isn't the standard fire-emergency-axe that belongs on the plane (in a cupboard where only the stewardessess know about, maybe, for security reasons), but that besides Locke and his knife collection, there was also some axe murderer with his tool on board?

A Woodcutter? (I want to be a woodsman like my Pa... ) Butcher? Locke is strange enough, but an axe?

Maybe an ok lumberjack brought it with him and it is named michelle.

Lumberjack - that was the word I was looking for! Thanks, R.

BTW, can anybody explain to me why

Hurley continually calls the Korean couple "Chinese", but Michael says that "Koreans" and Afro-Americans don't get along in the States?

Esp. considering that the survivors aren't supposed to be able to read the subtitles, so nobobdy can understand their language well enough to pinpoint their country? (And I think the other characters don't see their flashbacks, either...)

Hurley obviously doesn't realize that they're not Chinese. Or maybe he just thinks all eastern Asians as "Chinese".

As for Michael, we really don't know that much about him. I think he's only had one flashback episode, and I don't think it had even aired at this point. It's possible that he's spent enough time around Koreans to recognize them.

What Josh said.

Constanze, I'm not sure how the two halves of your question contradict one another (or were they intended as two different questions?).

In some communities, there has been tension between Koreans and African-Americans. In the parody Don't Be a Menace to South Central While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood, which satirizes the films of black filmmakers like John Singelton's Boyz in the Hood, this tension is examined when the two lead black characters enter a store owned and operated by two Asians (whom I assume were intended to be Korean). The feeling, IIUC, is that some in those communities feel that such storeowners exploit the people of those neighborhoods without giving back to the community. Michael, however, is from NYC, IIRC, so I don't know his basis was for that comment, unless it was just made in the heat of anger.

Luigi,

I just wonder how Michael know that they are Korean, if Hurley calls them Chinese, and nobody understands their language.

Or do you mean that Hurley thinks stereotypically that all Asians are chinese, while Micheal thinks stereotpyically all Asians are Koreans, and Michael just happens to be right?

Would the passenger manifest that turns up in one of the later ep.s also liste the nationality or only first and last name?

No, I believe Josh M had the right of it (see his comment above). Michael may have spent enough time around people of Korean descent to be able to tell the difference, while Hurley may just see "Asian" and guess "Chinese".

No problem constanze.

And as for the chinese thing. I gotta go with the Josh Hypothesis as well.

Constanze, I can easily spot Korean writing as distinct from Chinese or Japanese writing (however I can't tell the latter two apart). Michael could've seen something that belonged to Jin or Sun with writing on it, or he could've overhead some random words that he knew were Korean, or perhaps he knew because he can tell the differnece between Koreans and other Asians, etc. Things could've happened off-camera that revealed this to him.

Ah, now I get what you meant. I see; perhaps I was going too much by my own inability to tell these cultures definitely apart without obvious clues.

Not a very accurate portrayal of Koreans. When they're outside Sun's father's house, that is most definately NOT Korean archetecture.

And the whole thing about the watch being a manner of honour. Korean culture is no more concerned with honour than American culture. The writers are writing to an Asian stereotype.

A man of Jin's age would have had six years of English in school. More if he went to university.

Jin speaks Korean with a slight non-native accent.

The names 'Jin' and 'Sun' (which BTW are their given names, not family names) are possible, but quite unlikely. The vast majority of Koreans have two-syllable given names (three syllables total). Jin is a very (and annoyingly) common name for Korean-Americans. Many Korean men who have Jin as part of their name will shorten it to just Jin when travelling abroad, but as Jin doesn't speak any English whatsoever (which I've already said is highly unlikely), he's not likely to do this. Likewise, 'Sun' is usually a shortened form of Sunhee, though again it is possible to be the complete name. Having these names is not absolutely impossible, but both of them having rare Korean names is a bit of a stretch.

At least they hired two Korean (well, Korean and Korean-American) actors instead of a Japanese and Taiwanese as Hollywood usually does, but they should have done a little more homework. Many of the lines they say sound like direct translations of English lines rather than things Koreans might actually say.

I've not seen any episodes beyond this one yet, so no spoiler responses please.

Thank you for your thoughts, Kevin. I found your post, and the things you revealed about Korean culture to be very interesting. Are you Korean yourself? Or a student of the culture?

Are you new to Nitcentral? If so, welcome!

I'm not Korean, no. I am a linguist. I live in Korea which is why I'm so far behind. They did show the programme here but, to my knowledge, only during the day, and posibly at different times each day, so I gave up very quickly. Further, the Korean dialogue wasn't subtitled (which I still need), so that put me off as well. However, now that I'm watching the series on DVD, I see that much of the Korean dialogue wasn't supposed to be subtitled because it wasn't *supposed* to be understood by American viewers.


And I've been posting here for years, but mostly on the Doctor Who boards.

And the whole thing about the watch being a manner of honour. Korean culture is no more concerned with honour than American culture. The writers are writing to an Asian stereotype.

One of the later ep.s explains the significance of the watch better than with "honor".

A man of Jin's age would have had six years of English in school. More if he went to university.

But does that mean he would be able to understand fast-talking Americans (and Brits, and Aussies, all with very different accents) and talk himself well enough to be understood? I'm asking because on the Zompist Culture Tests, it says for several cultures that the average citizen probably had a foreign language for several years in high school, but doesn't speak or understand it well enough to be able to converse with a monolingual foreigner.

No it doesn't mean he'd understand it, but he would feel like he *should*. It's what Koreans call 'English complex.' Contemporary Korea is inundated with English: movies, tv, signs, adverts, etc. A modern Korean couldn't hold a five-minute conversation without uttering at least one word of English origin (Konglish). But the show portrays him (I've only seen season 1) as completely unable to communicate anything whatsoever, except what little he learns while building the raft. The character is so inept that he wouldn't be able to get through customs or check-in and the airport, which is an unrealistic portrayal of Korean men. Even the way he expresses him lack of understanding isn't an accurate portrayal.

Though I suppose we could chalk it up to culture shock.

costanze: For that matter, if gathering firewood and food is so important, why are Sayid and Mike the only ones doing it, if there are 46 people there???

Just because they're the only ones we see, doesn't mean they're the only one that are.