Mira Furlan? MIRA FURLAN???? TOO COOL!!!!!

Sorry, only about 15 minutes into it, but I just had to post that... wow! Great to see her again, makes me yearn for a new Babylon 5 project...

Josh M, you're right, Charlie does get the best lines. That tradition continues in this episode: "You didn't hear about the polar bear?" Laughed out loud at that one!

Also, I loved the idea to build a golf course. Wonder how they're going to get the greens trimmed close?

Now, who or what are the "they" that whisper in the jungle at night? Ooooooohhhhhh....

When I saw her name in the opening credits, I was thinking it sounded familiar but couldn't remember where I heard it. When we see her for the first time, I realize it's Delenn.

That's funny, because I usually pay attention to the opening credits, but missed them this time around for some reason... kind of made it into a nice surprise, though.

Great episode. Great origin story. Great developoment in the group's situation. Great ending.

And I am LOVING the origin stories! The way each episode seems to blend a real time story with an origin that echo one another (Omar's order to Sayid in the flashback to "execute" Nadia as Sayid eyes Danielle's other rifle in the present is a prime example) is really well done. Are they going to do an origin episode for each of the major characters this season, or perhaps save some for future seasons? And the way the episodes reveal an origin of an individual character gives the series a certain comic book feel. And I can't help but notice that one of the show's writers is Paul Dini. Given Dini's resume, you gotta wonder....hmmmm....
---I like how Hurley is coming into his own as a character, showing insight into problems of the group's desertion that others like Jack aren't. On the other hand, Michael's negligence of Walt is not good, and does not bode well if his goal is to keep him away from Locke.
---This show has really captured me, it has me on the end of my seat tensely observing the time index on my VCR as I dread how long until each episode is over (I can't recall that last time, if ever, having that feeling), and I'm torn between avoiding the next week promos and not being able to resist watching them so that I can get just a taste of what's to come.

We never found out how Nadia died, or how Sayid was responsible for it. Future episode, hopefully?

Was it determined that she actually died? I thought there was a question about that, and that he was just assuming it.

What happened in the last minutes or so? (My VCR timer cut out -- was taping because I was watching Category 6:Day of Destruction. Arggh! See my comments on that one in its own topic). The last thing I saw was Sayid in the forest and hearing some voices.

Yeah, Sayid tells Danielle "She's dead... and it was because of me."

Influx, is there going to be a repeat on Saturday? If not, you can go to the Episode Synopsis pages at abc.com.

Sure, but it's so much easier and faster to plumb the wealth of knowledge in this forum...

I missed this ep last week (to watch the last part of the awful Category 6 on CBS). For the fourth week in a row, my local tv guide listed Disney's The Rookie as being on Saturday at eight. Of course, I thought ABC was going to show a Lost rerun again. ABC had the nerve to actually run Disney's The Rookie. I hope they go back to airing reruns of Lost on Saturdays.

You chose to watch a lame-o disaster made-for-TV movie over Lost????? What's the matter with you?????

It the same with Enterprise, if I miss the earlier broadcast, I was expecting to watch the rebroadcast. Anyway, ABC probably gets better ratings with Lost and Desperate Housewives reruns.

I'm not sure if it was in this episode, but Sawyer was showing reading Watership Down, which, as pointed out in the new issue of \i[TV Guide}, is a story about a ragtag group of rabbits who band together to survive in a new home, and which features a fearless leader, a pregnant hare, a go-to person with a sort of sixth sense, a careless rebel, and a crafty hero. Hmmmm............

Wow, this is too weird. I just today bought Watership Down for my cousin... Hmm, maybe I picked the book subliminally by watching the episode, and seeing the book, but not *noticing* it consciously... weird.

Luigi, that was in Confidence Man.

This episode was a bit disturbing. Sayid is shown as being a torturer in Saddam's Iraq. I got the impression that he regularly tortured people and that he only stepped in when confronted with an old schoolmate (as a victim). Having seen some of Saddam's torture rooms on television documentaries (showing rooms splattered with blood and brain tissue), there seems to have been little evidence of compassion practiced in them. In this respect, isn't Sayid almost like a guard from Auschwitz. One act of compassion doesn't make up for all the other victims.

Since Disney-owned ABC is notorious for shying away from controversial political issues in its programs, I don't expect there will ever be any serious discussion of Iraq in Lost. Which is a shame. It would be incredible that none of the other survivors would want to discuss Iraq with Sayid ( a subject that most of the world discusses). The show shouldn't take an overly political stance, but it should have some resemblence to real life. I would expect the others to have more curiousity about Sayid's past.

Rona: In this respect, isn't Sayid almost like a guard from Auschwitz. One act of compassion doesn't make up for all the other victims.
Luigi Novi: Perhaps not, but guilt and redemption are archetypical journeys on which characters in fiction are often placed. Rather than pretending that one act of compassion makes up for his past deed, the show instead shows Sayid dealing with his guilt and shame.

Rona: The show shouldn't take an overly political stance, but it should have some resemblence to real life.
Luigi Novi: All fiction must have one degree or another of believability or realism on its own terms, at least to the extent that it can produce a willing suspension of disbelief in the viewer. But I don't know how much of a "resemblence to real life" you think this particular show should have, Rona, or how exactly you would prescribe that it manifest itself, given the events we've seen on it to date, like 47 passengers surviving a grotesque plane crash, polar bears on a desert island, a parapeligic suddenly able to walk again, mysterious monsters, etc. Hell, the fact that each of the 14 main characters seem to have personalities or backstories interesting enough for fiction is in itself unrealistic, isn't it? That's the nature of fiction, I think.

Rona: This episode was a bit disturbing.

I LOVED it!!

I don't want the show to take on a political tone. But the creators decided to make a Republican Guard a main character. Then why not be daring and explore this further. If the creators wanted a stereotypical torturer, they would have made him an ex KGB officer. The question arises over why Sayid showed no compassion, whatsoever, towards Sawyer. It seems he is fully capable of torturing a total stranger, and not a friend. He didn't seem too remorseful over torturing Sawyer. This is behavior I can't understand or justify. I could never imagine harming another human being (or animal).

First of all, I see no indication that the creators are not going to explore it further.

Second, I do not see how a KGB officer lends itself more easily to stereotypes than a member of the Republican Guard. Stereotypes are created through poor execution in writing a character. Not what organizations they belonged to, in and of itself.

As for Sayid, he did not show compassion to Sawyer because at the time he though he was withholding Shannon's medication, which means that from Sayid's point of view, Sawyer was in the process of harming her, and possibly even killing her. He did show guilt after it was revealed that he did not have the breather, for he felt he had to exile himself. Didn't you see this?

Lastly, I'm not sure why you are incredulous at the ease with which one can torture a stranger and not a friend. Isn't this obvious? It's easier to torture a stranger because it's easier to objectify them.

A nit about Hurley's golf course:
How did he mow that grass? They didn't have any equipment or grazing animals. Real golf courses require a sustantial alteration of a natural environment.

Kate says Sayid has been gone for two days, and Jack said earlier that in this climate, a person should drink 2 liters a day (or sth. around that amount). But the backpack Sayid carries doesn't look as if it contains several kilos of water until Sayid finds the next water source. Of course, the sensible approach would be to have several people establish water caches first, and then start a proper expedition, but then the story wouldn't work...

How come he didn't take paper and pencil to make a map sketch?

To calm Kate, Jack says that Sayid is an experienced soldier who will cope. How does he know that? All Sayid said was that he was in the Republic Guard, and that he tortured people. I wouldn't expect an intelligence officer, who works mostly at a desk, to be much of a survivalist. And there are factors soldiers can't influence, like the presence of drinking water.

Two days earlier, Sawyer received a big knife in his upper arm, but when Jack starts to change the bandage, the wound looks very small to me. Rapid healing in a hot, humid, tropical island...

Why doesn't Jack recommend Sullivan (the guy with the rash) to bathe in the ocean to cool the skin if its caused by heat?

Lock and Ethan go hunting in the jungle at night. Just how can they see enough?

That trap of the french woman was really tricky, that Sayid triggered it by stepping over the wire. I'd have expected a trap to be built for normal people, not specially designed...

Can anybody read the arabic writing on the photo Sayid looks at? (Really nice music at that scene, BTW).

So why does Sayid dismiss Gabrielle hearing voices as hallucinations? They don't know enough about the island to make any assumptions. They didn't expect the french woman to still be alive, either. If there's enough water, there can be a dozen people living a days walk away from Gabrielle.

Jack is right that they have a bunch of things to do to survive. So why aren't they doing them? And if Hurley thinks golfing improves morale, why not tell the whole camp about it? (I was afraid he would make a singsong to raise morale. A plan of what has to be done in what order, and which people will work on it would be much better.)
And yes, a doctor golfing is a stereotype... But why is Mike the caddy? Because he's black?

Sayid wonders why scientists would need rifles. What about wild pigs and other animals in the jungle?

So the boat was three days from Tahiti (though she doesn't say in which direction) when the storm hit. That narrows the area down where they are. Just when will they build a raft and explore the neighborhood to get to the next inhabitate island? (Judging by their current confused process, they'll still be there in another 16 years...)

Why doesn't Sayid invite Gabrielle to come with him earlier? (BIMD?) And when he steals her maps, shouldn't he give her at least a description of where the survivors are?

Michael has no idea at all how to treat Walt. Walt would like to play, after Michael forgot him at the caves, but instead of offering his own turn, Michael just steps up and forgets Walt again. He has no reason to complain if Walt bonds more with Locke.


DZ:

I didn't think Hurley mowed the grass. It looked to me as if this was simply grass that didn't grow very high - maybe because there's a lot of wind on this plateau, or maybe the soil is poor in this space. Or maybe the rabbits Ethan/Locke discovered graze there?

About Sayid: I perceived that he was uneasy about his torture of Sawyer not only because Sawyer was innocent, but because he promised himself to never again do this.

While I do think that it's a stereotype to make Sayid an Iraqui who naturally was a member of the Republican Guard and naturally tortured prisoners (because that's what the public expects from Iraquis - couldn't he have been a simple electronic expert not working for the regime? Or from another country practising torture?), I think it's good to show that torture is wrong. (What would've been real controversal would've been an American Intelligence/Army guy who tortured prisoners - in Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo. But they wouldn't be sorry, since they were doing it to protect God's own country, freedom and democracy from terrorists, right? As long as the good ones do it, it isn't wrong. Only if your regime looses, are you wrong. Or if your regime is wrong because we declare it to be wrong - the Iraq of the 80s was good, the Iraq of Gulf War onwards wasn't. And Turkey mistreating the Kurds isn't wrong, either, since the Turks are Allies of the good ones. Have I got public opinion right? ;))

Since this ties in with last ep. , confidence man, I'll make my thoughts on this subject here: Yes, Sawyer makes it easy to the viewer and Jack to hate him, by being an arrogant jerk, and by denying the medicine (and hoarding stuff at all). Yes, they desperately need the information about the medicine.
But even when the victim is a jerk and the info could save a life, torture is wrong. In Sawyers case, because he didn't have that info, and because there was another way. (And by concentrating on forcing Sawyer, Jack the doctor overlooked other possibilities like using eucalyptus.)
So I don't see this as condoning torture at all.

Rona, as for Sayid having done bad things by torturing people: at least, he did come around and change his view. He realized he did wrong. And both Jack and Sayid realized it was wrong to torture Sawyer. I think this works much better as a story to have heroes who make mistakes, and have to live with the guilt, and try to atone for them, and learn to avoid them in the future, than having bland heroes who always do right, never make mistakes, never struggle.

What can anybody learn from bland heroes? How can anybody relate to infallable supermen? (Unless it's an already egoistic person who's sure he never makes mistakes himself.)

About Nadja: Sayid says at first, that he's responsible for her death. But when Gabrielle points her gun at him, he tells her that for 7 years he hasn't heard of Nadja and still clings to the hope she may have fled sucessfully. I think if she were alive, she might've sent a coded message to his family that she was okay - no place mentioned, worded to be meaningless to outsiders. OTOH, if an escapee were caught, would'nt Sayid have heard about it as Guard? (And since he claimed that she was armed, wouldn't they have hunted her with full force?)

So how did an Iraqui officer get to Australia - do we learn later?

And what was this sickness the other scientists contracted?

I hope Sayid tells the others about Gabrielle and brings a group along to visit her. Not only does she have some useful supplies, she has a lot of knowledge that could be important. And if she sees for herself that the other people exist, she might reconsider living alone.

Does everything have to turn into a bash-Bush/bash-US fest?

Constanze a lot of what you ask is answered in later episodes.

As for sayid he is a soldier and they have to go throuhg a lot of training including survival. The republican guard was an elite group so they would receive more training. And as iraq is a desert country I am sure they have water conservation as part of their training.

It's Danielle, not Gabrielle.

R,

...And as iraq is a desert country I am sure they have water conservation as part of their training.

I don't know about that. I'd expect ways to collect water in the desert to be part of survival training. And how much water can you conserve on a hot, humid island? Drinking less will only heighten the chances of getting heatstroke.

ScottN,

where did I mention Bush?

Can you give another reason why Sayid is an Iraqui who of course is member of the Republican Guard and of course tortured prisoners than public opinion? The storyline would've worked with another country, too.

But yes, I know it's my mistake if I forget that criticsm isn't allowed...

ScottN said "bash-Bush/bash-US fest," not just "bash Bush."

In other words, was this passage in any way relevant to the show: But they wouldn't be sorry, since they were doing it to protect God's own country, freedom and democracy from terrorists, right? As long as the good ones do it, it isn't wrong. Only if your regime looses, are you wrong. Or if your regime is wrong because we declare it to be wrong - the Iraq of the 80s was good, the Iraq of Gulf War onwards wasn't. And Turkey mistreating the Kurds isn't wrong, either, since the Turks are Allies of the good ones. Have I got public opinion right?

I was trying to express why I think that TPTB didn't use an American or another country as the ex-torturer-who-is-sorry-about-his-actions.

Yes, of course it's okay to say that Sayid was wrong when he tortured people, but any further discussion of torture isn't relevant to the show at all...

It's Danielle, not Gabrielle.

Yeah! Gabrielle's Mine!

I was trying to express why I think that TPTB didn't use an American or another country as the ex-torturer-who-is-sorry-about-his-actions. - constanze

I'm sorry. It was hard to hear you standing up so high on your soapbox.


Yes, of course it's okay to say that Sayid was wrong when he tortured people, but any further discussion of torture isn't relevant to the show at all... - constanze

Ah.... sarcasm...

We should limit the discussion of torture to things within the episode.

Sure, your suggestion would have been interesting. And had you just made the suggestion, no one would have minded. Instead, you pontificated, giving us opinions that belong on a different discussion board. Many of us, like myself, avoid the political and religious discussion groups because we want to avoid the often heated exchanges. I'd rather not see them surface on a board where it doesn't belong... particularly in what's supposed to be an innocent discussion of a television show.

If you want to discuss torture and how the definitions vary depending on which government is doing the torturing, then please take it up on a board where such a discussion is relevant.

I could remark that it would be interesting if one of the castaways were Michael Jackson, and then pontificate on what I think of the Michael Jackson case. But that would be irrelvant to the discussion at hand, wouldn't it?

I could remark that it would be interesting if one of the castaways were Michael Jackson

Maybe Michael Jackson is one of The Others? That's why they want "the Boy"!

costanze: And yes, a doctor golfing is a stereotype... But why is Mike the caddy? Because he's black?
I thought that it was just Jack's turn to golf. Don't they show Michael golfing later?

costanze: Sayid wonders why scientists would need rifles. What about wild pigs and other animals in the jungle?
They weren't going to originally be in a jungle. Their ship wrecked.

costanze: So the boat was three days from Tahiti (though she doesn't say in which direction) when the storm hit. That narrows the area down where they are. Just when will they build a raft and explore the neighborhood to get to the next inhabitate island?
Assuming one is nearby.

costanze: So how did an Iraqui officer get to Australia - do we learn later?
Yeah

R: ...And as iraq is a desert country I am sure they have water conservation as part of their training.

costanze: I don't know about that. I'd expect ways to collect water in the desert to be part of survival training. And how much water can you conserve on a hot, humid island? Drinking less will only heighten the chances of getting heatstroke.
They're probably trained in doing both. Just because you know ways to collect water in a desert doesn't mean that you will find any.

I thought it was just jacks turn as well and michael happend to stand by the clubs. Sort of the safe zone, (and sicne none of you have ever seen me golf you probably wont get that reference)

Yeah. Just because you are able to find or collect water in a desert does not mean that you will be able to get enough to meet medicalk recommendations. But part of special forces is training in how to continue functioning with minimal supplies, support and assistance. The thign about being on a tropical island is that there is water everywhere. Bamboo holds water, plants have water within them, near the beach you can dig a shallow hole and have it fill with water that has had the salt filtered out by the sand, all sorts of simple survival tricks that sayid no doubt has been taught.

I thought that it was just Jack's turn to golf. Don't they show Michael golfing later?


Yes, you're right. I was typing my comments during each break, and forgot to delete that line.

... the next inhabitate island?
Assuming one is nearby.

That's what I still don't understand: I looked into my atlas, and the only way I can fit together being off course and crashing on an island at all is if they're in the middle of hundreds of islands, and I don't get why nobody else said: "Hey we must be close to Tahiti etc., let's find out where exactly we are."

Now, if this is some kind of magical island (as Locke seems to think, and I think Sayid said earlier that the chances for their survival was incredible), it may have risen from the bottom of the ocean with nothing else in the vicinity...


Darth,

if I went a bit over the top and "pontificated" - I'm sorry, I got upset. Maybe the moderator can move the relavant parts to the right board, please?

constanze. No harm, no foul.

Let's face it, each of us is going to bring our own POV (including political POV) to this, and view it throught that filter. You, me, Rona (see Exodus Pt2), Darth, R, etc...

Now if only some of our other flamefests could be handled as maturely? :-P

You must be new here.

Mark, ha ha. Do I need to get MJ to talk sense into you?

Only the sith deal in absolutes ScottN. A true jedi realizes there are many points of view.

That your new catchphrase, Mark?

I thought the Sayid's troubled conscience over torturing people was a refreshing contrast to some politicians' lack of concern. One politician would even smirk and joke about executing people when he was a govenor.

We know you don't like Bush, Rona. Take it to PM.

I might have been refering to a nineteenth century New York governor.

Watching this ep again, it just seems too much of a stretch that Hurley would construct a golf course. That would require cutting down vast areas of grass. Without a power mower, it would take forever. It's not something he could create in a day.

Maybe he is god? Certainly Hurley looks like buddha. ;-)

As for the course it didnt look like the grass had been cut to me. More like a naturally shorter grass (which does occur, shorter being relative)maybe he used somekinda grass hook (or reasonable facsimilie) to chop down around the tee box and the green.

When grass is that low, usually it is the result of grazing animals. I see no such animals on the island.

Maybe it was the mysterious island defense mecha. Space Cow of Doom.

For not having spoken to anyone in 16 years, Danielle's second language English is incredibly perfect. Of course, it's possible her husband was a native Anglophone and that they had lived in an English-speaking country before. I don't remember any evidence to contradict that.)

And since she can speak English so well, wouldn't it have been better to record the mayday either in English or bilingually?

(And I'm not sure, but doesn't she try speaking Spanish as well to Sayid when he's coming around after being knocked out and removed from the trap?)

And since she can speak English so well, wouldn't it have been better to record the mayday either in English or bilingually?

Especially since the lingua franca of international aviation is English.

The only way it would believably work in reality that she can still speak coherently/fluently in any language after being alone for 16 years is that she spoke to herself/the trees/the island monster everyday.

Otherwise, her voice would get squeaky from non-use (maybe vocal cords atrophy), and she'd forget most of the words. Even with talking to the trees/herself, it would be very difficult to keep her vocabulary and grammar and brain working, if there's no feedback. (But then, the island is magical, so maybe the island monster/trees did talk back? Or the ghosts/whisper?)

She made the recording 16 years ago.

No, I meant she talks pretty well when talking to Sayid.

As for why she didn't record in English... at first, I thought it was simply by having the message in french in the pilot, it was more mysterious, and they needed Blond girl to translate. But since we Nitpickers don't deal in reality , I guess an explanation would be that she made the call right after the attack that "killed everybody else", and because she was rattled, she talked in her mother language.
She probably didn't expect the signal to broadcast for 16 years, either.
As for why she didn't go back and re-record a bilingual message: she forgot? She didn't care/didn't believe it would help her, after no quick response came?

Don't the French have territory in the Pacific, isn't that where they were testing nukes a few years back? She would have known that and there would be a good chance that anyone receiving the transmission would be French.

I want to know how Danielle managed to keep her teeth in such good condition for 16 years!

Nothing sweet to eat? The people in Africa take a short twig from a certain bush, chew on one end and use that to brush, so maybe Danielle found sth. similar to use?

Sun knows how to keep her teeth clean, so maybe Danielle does as well. Plus she was with a scientific team. Even if not, if it were me I'd be experimenting until I found something.

costanze: To calm Kate, Jack says that Sayid is an experienced soldier who will cope. How does he know that?
Like you said, he was trying to calm Kate. I wouldn't put it past him to stretch the truth a bit. Unless he's told Jack more offscreen.

costanze: That trap of the french woman was really tricky, that Sayid triggered it by stepping over the wire. I'd have expected a trap to be built for normal people, not specially designed...
Unless there are two traps, one designed in the circumstance that someone spots the wire as Sayid did. Then again, it seems that even if one did trip the wire, they'd still step where Sayid did.

costanze:
So why does Sayid dismiss Gabrielle hearing voices as hallucinations? They don't know enough about the island to make any assumptions. They didn't expect the french woman to still be alive, either. If there's enough water, there can be a dozen people living a days walk away from Gabrielle.
To be fair, she probably doesn't seem that stable from his perspective. Not that that changes.

Wasn't Ethan told to infiltrate the group just after the plane crash? Here it's day 12 before we ever see him. I guess he could have been around and just not on camera, but I would think he would try to get in close with the main characters rather than the ones who mope around complaining about having nothing to do until the gold clubs are found (which delivers anyway).

Don't know if anyone is still reading the old threads, but here goes....

I have been watching "Lost" on and off, and have managed to see season 3 before season 2, a year or so after I'd finished watching season 1. I think I'm a bit confused :-).

One thing I seem to have established through conversations with other viewers was that Walt was the cause of the Polar bears (he saw them in his imagination, they appeared on the island). However, Rousseau mentions the polar bears (she says something about being afraid to go out because of them). How can they have been there before Walt?

Don't be afraid of spoilers for me, at this rate I'm never going to see season five before they all get rescued/killed/condemned to purgatory - whatever!

Walt was not the cause of the polar bears. See the first few episodes of Season 3.

I'm not going to post the details here, but if you've seen S3, watch the first episode again.

The DHARMA video seen in Orientation gives a hint, too.