Interesting article:

http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2001-04-23-buffy.shtml

Some good comments:

American Christianity, Vampires and Buffy

In Buffy we see no heaven, no God, no Christ. There are no functioning churches and there is no serious prayer. There are occasional references to the sacred/pagan nature of humans versus demons and vampires, but the creatures of the night are the only ones who get to quote the Bible. The Christian symbolism of holy water and crosses is left unstated. The presence and effectiveness of both have lessened throughout the run of the series, and by the third year a vampire looks at a cross and a vial of holy water, sneers "Whatever" and walks away ("Doppelgangland").
. . .
To begin: What does the cross signify on the show? It appears to be neither Christian nor non-Christian. It is constantly present -- in the opening credits, around Buffy's neck, and in her bag of weapons along with holy water, a cross bow and a collection of wooden stakes, knives, and axes -- but it has no privileged status. Although Buffy symbolically removes her crucifix when she temporarily resigns her position as Slayer ("Prophecy Girl"), the cross is no more a weapon than a crossbow, a broken pool cue, or a well-placed karate kick. The ambiguity of the cross is emphasized by Buffy's first great nemesis, the Master, who defiantly calls it "two pieces of wood," even as it sizzles under his touch.
. . .
What is Buffy's cross for? Where does Buffy get her powers from? Why is Angel allowed to return from Hell? Why is there a Hell? Questions like these are suggested, but are left generally unasked and always unanswered. During the fifth season a more mature and introspective Buffy becomes more aware of some of these issues, asking the librarian Rupert Giles to become her Watcher again to help her work out answers. But as she experiences the loss of another boyfriend, the death of her mother, and her most powerful opponent yet (a "god," not a demon or vampire), any sense of a divine presence or a transcendent purpose evades her.

Gregory Erickson teaches English at CUNY's Medgar Evers College and music at the Brooklyn Conservatory of Music. He is currently a Ph.D. candidate in English at the Graduate Center in New York City. A longer version of this essay will appear in Fighting The Forces: Essays On The Meaning Of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, edited by Rhonda V. Wilcox and David Lavery, forthcoming later this year from Rowman and Littlefield

There was also this well done article in National Review Online about the moral power of the show

Actually, the Christian nature of the Cross is spoken of several times, but only when Willow is wondering what her father would think about having one in her room. There are several monastic sects and priests who can only be Christian, in season five. The Cruficition is listed as a favorite vampire historical event. Perhaps the most telltale sign is Giles reluctance to use magic, despite the fact he can, and very well.

Finally, Religion of any kind does not really play a big role in this age group.

While the paragraphs that Mike quotes could just as well have come from an articulate fundamentalist apologist (a rarity, but not an oxymoron) bemoaning eroding Christian values, if you read the entire article you will see that it is a balanced academic examination of how the show helps to define a uniquely American "post-Christian" culture, and helps disaffected youth deal with the issues that religion used to.

In Sunnydale, the connection of the cross to Christianity, as exemplified by your own citing of Willow, is purely historical.

Likewise, while it can be assumed that the orders to which belong the monks who created Dawn, and the knights who tried to kill her were originally Christian, this assumption is based on history outside the series. There is nothing specific to indicate that they are now or ever were Christian.

Giles tries to avoid magic as much as possible, not because of any occult/Christianity opposition, but because he learned the hard way, as Willow must this season that there are consequences to our decisions, and that "With great power there is great responsibility."

All true. Well, I do expect most shows like this to be reflections of reality (Such as Highlander and the X-files), with a unseen side, and therefore what we know about this world toi be true in theirs.

Again, it's a TV show about killing stuff to today's hottest bands, maturation, and I really should relax. La la la.

fundamentalist apologist

Apologist?! Apologist for what? What have "fundamentalists" done wrong? What crime have they committed? You devalue the whole idea of right and wrong when you compare having stringent religious faith to a moral failing. Yuo can be an apologist for the Nazis or Stalin, but not fundamentalists.

You remind me of this weird Jew who wrote an absurd article comparing Wagner to Hitler and suggesting that anyone who looked at the merits of Wagner's music without taking into account his anti-Semitism was a "Wagner apologist". Use words wisely.

Peter.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com

a·pol·o·gist (-pl-jst)
n.
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

I was using the older definition of apologetics (Thanks, DD, for saving me the trouble of looking it up) In the older writings, such as those of St. Augustine, "apologists" vigourously debated their position with all the legitimate tools of rhetoric, logic and elocution available to them. They were not simpering, mewling weaklings, and I did not intend to portray them as such.

Okay, I stand corrected (and ever more hateful of ambiguous words like that ).

Peter.

I could understand an American University, even an Ivy League school like Harvard or Yale, admitting someone not aware of the true, older, meaniing of an Apology (thanks to declining standards in American education), but I would have thought Oxford had higher standards.

^_^

I am not in Oxford *yet*. If I hadn't known that upon leaving, then yes, it would have been bad. :P

(Anyone noticed that when some think I am wrong and I don't I am being arrogant, but when I admit I was wrong about something it becomes a stick with which to beat me? I can't win. )

Peter.

Didn't Giles quote the Bible by heart once?

In the Dracula episode: There was a scene where Riley attacked the Three Sisters with a Cross, and it was enough to send them fleeing. Riley has been the only characther to be an active church going Christian. Perhaps we should keep an eye out for Riley and use of the cross and compare it.

In "When She Was Bad": Buffy tortures a vampire with the cross that Angel gave her. It burns the vampire's skin and fills her with unspeakable terror. Buffy is a confirmed non-churchgoer. I think it's probably safe to say that the vampire-repellent properties of a cross work regardless of who uses one. (Otherwise they'd be no good to Willow, would they?)

Also, I can name at least one character who was an active Christian: Drusilla. Granted, it was 1860 the last time she was able to set foot in a church, but still. ^_^

Actually, the fact she was a nun should prove it better.

I was speaking more of faith as a X factor to the power of the cross. Of course in both "Never kill a boy on the first date", and "•••••• Watcher's council test" the cross in the hands of Buffy is weak on two newly created vamps. But the centuries old sisters are driven away, and don't bother Riley further.

When the Master was trapped in the ruins of the church, he had a speech about the cross, and about the power of fear. (This might have been in "Prophesy Girl, I'm not sure.) Anyway it seems to imply that the effectiveness of the cross depends as much on the vamp's beliefs as on the weilder's. Drusilla and the Drac sisters would have a much stronger reaction than your average 200 or so year old vamp. A modern "post-Christian era" California vamp (like Sandy or Harmony) might not be affected much at all. Even Angel only had a localized "allergic reaction" to contact with Buffy's cross during their first kiss.

If memory serves, the cross was still burning the Master (It was in the fear manifesting itself episode with the Annointed one). It also burnt the Insane vampire. Crosses do seem to have real power, as well as inspireing great fear. Vamp Willow, despite not caring, still left after the Cross and Holy water were displayed.

They definitely have innate power over the vamps. It's just that the beliefs and fears of both the vamp and the crucifer can add to that natural power, or partially neutralize it.

I posted the original post on www.buffy.com and I got these responses:

To quote Buffy:
Posted by: heavypetting - May 13, 2002, 12:59 PM 1 of 6

"Note to self, religion freaky."


That's just dumb...
Posted by: Jeff_X - May 13, 2002, 12:23 PM 2 of 6

...because in the whole of the Lord of the Rings, there is no Christ etc etc, but the whole thing is based fundamentally upon Christian morality.

Buffy is the same. It operates in a way that is all-encompassing, accross all faiths. Yet it most certainly puts forward a Christian sense of principles. Screaming damnation is a wonderful way of turning off our youth from Christianity.



Heaven, Hell and Buffy
Posted by: defenestrated_one - May 13, 2002, 12:23 PM 3 of 6

It is interesting to note that many, if not most times "hell" or "heaven" are brought up by the characters it is in terms of a "dimension". Angel wasn't in THE hell, he was in A hell dimension. Hell in the Christian sense isn't fire, brimstone and torture. It is the absense of God. The fire and brimstone approach was largely (IMHO) added during the medieval period because the church needed to propose something to the peasants that they could understand. Hell as the absense of God is a fairly complex topic subject to debate and discussion - hell as a place where someone is prodding you with hot pokers isn't. Much easier to understand the latter and why its a really really bad thing. So the hell that Joss depicted for Angel was a "dimension" and really wasn't the Biblical depiction of the place. I believe that the term "dimension" was also used for Buffy's experiance in heaven.

The vampire mythology is pretty well tied up with Christian symbolism - the cross and holy water. Ignoring that aspect of the myth entirely could have opened him up to larger criticism from the Christian right as he would have been denying the symbolic items their power against evil. I feel Joss has the right approach - include them but have them be a secondary weapon. Buffy doesn't ever deny any religions validity and they can do that because they never really address it. The show isn't about religion and they've decided not to touch the issue.

To agree with yorker, this isn't a theology class. If there is one thing you never want to do as a show, it is discuss and try and validate a single religion. You might as well shoot yourself in the head - the end result would be about the same.



yes the thing is
Posted by: spockrbh - May 13, 2002, 12:13 PM 4 of 6

if your gonna be truthful it is gonna offend groups



show
Posted by: yorker - May 13, 2002, 12:11 PM 5 of 6

good questions, but...its a show written for "entertainment" not a theolgy class. in todays world of not trying to offend any group i think the have done a good job of staying in the middle of the road and keeping the storylines complete.



well
Posted by: spockrbh - May 13, 2002, 12:06 PM 6 of 6

http://pub55.ezboard.com/breligiousdiscussion68204

well dracula implied that her powers come from the dark side


http://www.buffy.com/bronze_posts.jsp?tid=125955


I find it interesting that people on both this board and Buffy's board refuse to admit that the show raises religious issues that don't really get answered. Everyone for some reason seems offended by that suggestion. Hell, Buffy is called "The Chosen One"? Well, the obvious question is: Chosen by Who?

When a Slayer dies, how do the Watchers Council know where the new Slayer is located? Doesn't that imply that they are being directed by a higher power (i.e. God)?

Here's some more. Remember First Evil? Looked a lot like Satan in its final form. Even had the job of tormenting Angel for his sins AND trying to convince him he was beyond redemption. And its actions were contary to the TPTB as well, who have a higher purpose for Angel. Certainly anything about redemption is a religious theme.

Of course, it's show, and I really should relax.

Oh, I sometimes forget the rest of the web isn't quite up to our speed, so I will forgive them for their errors.

Riley was from Iowa which is in the Midwest
Bible Belt so it makes sense that he would be the
one character that would be pictured as a church
goer.I'm not trying to paint Riley in stereotypical terms,but being from Iowa I think he was MEANT to represent the average mid American.
I'm also NOT saying that none of the others never went to church since they were from California,but
I believe California along with Oregon and Washington is one of the states with the lowest in church attendance.
Of course let's not forget that the only character (other than Riley) with a KNOWN religion is Willow."Hello,still Jewish!"she says in one ep.
btw:I saw a book on Buffy at Barnes & Noble that took a scholarly approach to the show and one essay mentioned in passing that Joss Whedon was an
atheist.

I knew that about Joss. However, that still doesn't mean religious themes aren't going to be in the show. (Take Redemption)

Teensgers and young adults aren't very religious to began with.

And we know from Hell's Bells that Xander is an Episcopalian. We know from School Hard that Cordie was praying, and from Prophetcy Girl that Giles knows the Bible. So my guess is mostly "Raised Christian, inactive until they have kids, except when they need a burial or wedding, or to fight vampires."

Shall we discuss Vampire religious beliefs?

Teensgers and young adults aren't very religious to began with.
That's not necessarily true. I know quite a few who are very religious and active in their faith.

NANJAO Here's one to chew on. Giles says In The Harvest that Vamps came from when one of the last demons to walk the earth fed off a human. So they've been a fact of life for awhile.
Add onto that the fact that the First Slayer (Restless) seems to be a woman from prehistoric Africa, where (we now think ) the first Homo Sapiens evolved. So for about as long as there have been humans, there've been slayers.

So I guess that the early slayers had to make do without such modern conveniences such as crosses and holy water, and consecrated sanctuaries, since they were a long time before any of those things had any meaning.

===In Buffy we see no heaven, no God, no Christ.===

Wellllll, that's true, but the word "christ" (note the small 'c') is actually Ancient Greek for "The Annointed One". So seasons one and the beginning of two DID feature a christ. Just not THE Christ.

Plus Buffy went to heaven after "The Gift".