just wandering. Joss has steered clear of real religion in the show. Even Wicca, a term freely used in the series, doesn't bear much resemblance to the witchcraft of Tara and Willow (most Wiccans I know are of the bake sale variety seen in Hush).

Basically we have The Powers That Be and The First Evil, which can be neatly applied to almost any religion (thus reducing the chance of alienating viewers).

If you want The Powers to be God, and The First to be Lucifer, knock yourself out. It’s as good an interpretation as any.

Well, at the risk of going into a topic better suited for Religious Musings or even Mythology, I suppose that depends on your religious upbringing & personal interpretations of the Bible.

The first evil in the bible is possibly the Serpent, who tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Although frankly that seems more mischeivious than evil. Or even like a tenth-rate Trickster God.

Satan, with a capital S, was a fallen angel who came along later, I believe the New Testament refers to Satan as a specific entity rather than a generic adversary (satan, lower case S).

Although Christians tend to lump the Serpent, Lucifer, Satan, etc., etc., all together despite differences in personalties & 'job descriptions'.

However in the Buffyverse it's implied that demons ruled the Earth before humanity, which would seem to indicate a First Evil older than humanity/Adam & Eve.

So my answer is... No.

Actually The First seems rather pathetic as Evil goes, but then just because you are first doesn't necesarily mean you are the best.

Joss has steered clear of real religion in the show. - dog456

Only if you ignore that crucifixes and blessed water can harm vampires.

Well, when I first saw amends, I thought, "This is Satan!!!"

Well, first, evil isn't of a manichistic nature in either Buffy or Christianity. Manichisitic though holds that good and evil are opposing forces, both striving for control, while Orthidox Christianity held that evil is a perversion of the natural order, a cancer if you will. Buffy seems to agree with this. The Vampires are not natural creatures, they are essentially zombies created by demons as a parody of humanity, much like Orcs are a parody of Elves in LOTR. The Demons living in our realm, they are not the natural inhabitants either, but half breeds sent by the Demon world to exist where they cannot, and to live in their Hellish dimentions, which seem to be a parody of Earth.

To further this theory, let's look at the characthers. Willow didn't put on a black hat one day and decide to be evil. She became evil through love, through a thirst for justice, and decided to end the world, not to conquer it, but to end it's suffering. Does anyone remember "Willow doesn't live here anymore." That's th nature of evil. It's not an alternative lifestyle, but a empty mockery of good.

Faith, didn't become evil one day. It started with killing evil things. She essentially joined the mayor, because she wanted to belong, she was envious of Buffy's life. When she saw the life Buffy had, it nearly drove her insane with her own emptyness. Eventually her unhappy existence ended in her fight with Angel, where she tried to get Angel to kill her.

Anya saw what human life was like, could find no joy in inflicting vengence, and tried to get Buffy to kill her. Evil is empty.

Spike tried to love Buffy, but being an evil Vampire never could do it. He even figured out that he needed a soul first. It came down to, he could not have love and still remain evil.

Angel's long redemption is probably the best case. He is in constant torment over what he has done, and can never find true happiness on his own actions. His nature of a vampire with a soul has always tortured him. Anyone remember "amends"? He wasn't destroyed by being told he was on the wrong side, or that was too evil, it's because he was wretched person.

Now, the matter of the demon world, while it appears to support a Manichistic view, doesn't. The demons are lying, and telling themselves, they are a world distinct from humanity, that they are the alternate of the natural order, and they are God's rival, not his creation. Considering how much demons want to get back to Earth, and considering how many lose to Buffy, despite having superior numbers and power. Perhaps they die for the same reason the Slayer dies. They hate their life and they have no desire to continue. Evil is not meaningful.

Okay, so that was longer than it needed to be, how does it apply to the First? Well, the First's tactics are not, convert people to evil, but to decieve them, often their desire to destroy evil. The First told Angel he was evil, and had to die, or kill Buffy. The First told Willow she also had to die. The First torments people to make them unsure enought not to oppose it. It doesn't say, "Join me", it destroys.

How does this relate to Satan? Well, Satan's main charactheristic was decite. He tells Eve to eat of the fruit, not to sin, but to achieve knowlege. He rebelled agaist God in an attempt to seek power agaist the natural order. The comments of Lucifer in Paradise Lost indicating that the mind can make a Heaven out of Hell wasn't romantic banter, it was to show that was so deluded with pride that could no longer see reality.

In conclusion, evil isn't a vast rival to good. It's a pale imitation of it at best, and cancer upon it at most. Therefore, the First, who deludes, misleads and ultimately confuses the difference between good and evil.

KAM: When I think Trickster God, I think, "Coyote stole the Tribe's sacred gord", or "Loki traded Thor's hammer for Porn again." Rarely does "Mar the natural order of things, claim kingship over the universe, challege your all powerful creator, decieve humanity to follow your own destructive path to the void, responability for every evil here on Earth, and prepare for final battle agaist said Creator, who has already fated your downfall" enter into the mind.

The Old Testament Satan was an Angel whose job it was to search out evil in the world, and if none was found, create it. The Serphant, Satan, and his forms are tied toghether in Revelations, where the snakelike Classical Dragon is Satan's symbol. Although belief in demons has existed since the time of Moses.

And KAM, evil is pathethic. That's the point.

So, Matt, your answer to Dog's question is Yes.

So many things I could comment on but I stay out of Religious Musings to avoid those kinds of arguments so I will try to restrict my answers to things related to the Buffyverse.

Truthfully Good & Evil are human concepts. One culture's Good can be another culture's Evil. Through the ages what has been considered Good & Evil has changed.

And the pathetic comment was directed at The First as an opponent, not the nature of Evil. The horned, red guy over on Angel is more impressive as an opponent, (and looks more like some representations of Satan.)

Heck, one could even argue that the true First Evil was the creator of the cruel & unfair universe. To quote a poster "Life is a rude interruption in an otherwise peaceful nonexistence." ;-)

Also you seem to forget that not all the demons in the Buffyverse are evil. Lorne, Skip, others that I can't remember, don't want to destroy.

The Serphant, Satan, and his forms are tied toghether in Revelations, where the snakelike Classical Dragon is Satan's symbol.
Sounds like a Christian Era author decided to pull a Retcon. I still think the personalities of the characters are too different to be the same entity, though.

So my answer remains unchanged.

Then we agree to disagree.

Of course. This is all guesswork, unless Joss Whedon decides to answer the question. ;-)

Actually, I think it should have been obvious since Buffy first step foot on the Hellmouth. Cordelia is the true face of the evil that end the world.

This might shed some infomation on the subject

The First Evil is not Satan! How do I know? Well, because it hasn't offered to buy anyone's soul!

Well, actually the claim was more along the lines of "Zeus/Jupiter" thing than pure allegory. Actually, we have new facts on tomarrow's Buffy. "We shall be as gods, We shall be as gods"

Well, to be more accurate, it was a "Vlad/ Dracula" thing

Okay, let's review what we now know.

1. The First is the source of all evil. Satanic? Yes.

2. The First deals in lies, deception, and manipulation. It's prefered method of operation is the corruption of others (We shall be as gods, is almost a direct quote from scripture.). Satanic? Yes.

3. It has an strong association with death, unmatched by any other Buffy villian. Satanic? Yes.

4. It's main message is not to oppose good, but that good doesn't exist, and neither does evil, it's only power that counts. Satanic? Yes.

5. It uses henchmen who solely exist on the lies and deceits, and have no other way to sense the truth. Not entirely Satanic, but not outside his role as the prince of lies.

6. All the imagery on the seal of Dansazathar is satanic. All the imagery also appears in the Satanic Temple in "Grave."

7. The First's true form, as seen in Willow, is very satanic.

8. Caleb is effectily the Anti-Christ, or rather, Anti-Buffy.

9. The First can shapeshift like Loki, who is associated with Satan, at least for his part in the endtimes.

My conclusion is this, the First Evil is based on Satan, much in the same way the Child Death is based on Freddie Kruger, Adam is based on Frankenstien's Monster, Lothos is based on Dracula, the Master is based on Nosferatu, Spike's relationship with his mother is based on Lestat's, et cetra. The First was meant to be the ultimate Buffy Villian, and who better to turn to than the father of all lies?

More "evidence"!

The First Evil is actually Sauron The Ring Lord. He can shapeshift, is incorporal, looking for a mighty artifact of power, has henchmen who correspond with Orcs (The Fighting Turok Han) and Nazgul (Those blind guys) who get a giant battle scene, and his major weapon of choice is despair. Since Sauron is just a minion of the Melkor called Morgoth, Vala and Dark Lord of Angband, who is supposed to be Satan...

Of course, the similarities between Season 7 and the Lord of the Rings could fill a small discussion board.