>>>BTW, as I've mentioned on the "Journey to Babel" board, this movie marks the first time we see one of the Enterprise crew members smoking. In this case, it's Kirk taking a puff off of Martia's cigar. Supposedly, no one smokes in the future. At least no one human. <<<

St. John Talbert smokes during his first scene in STV:TFF.

Here's something. The camp commandant knows the details of the conspiracy, or at least who the Klingon participant is. Kirk is chagrined that the Enterprise beamed him up one second before the commandant was going to spill the beans.

Why not beam up the commandant and interrogate him? Sure, he's got a weapon, and transporter technology of the day might not be able to disarm it in mid-transport, but they could probably have ringed the pad with security personnel in under a minute then beamed the guy up.

Kidnapping a klingon commandant on top of all the other regulations, laws and diplomatic agreements they have already broken? Why Not? What else do they have to loose?

Exactly.

GASP! A Star Trek Movie board more recently updated than the ST:TMP Spamventure?

Good point, though. I never thought about that... maybe they asume that he's a small fish with little info, or possibly even planted missinformation, since Valeris doesn't seem to know about him later on. (Of course, that doesn't explain why they don't interrogate him NOW.) Perhaps they figured justifying a rescue was one thing, but kidnapping was anohter? Or perhaps the patch Kirk was wearing was sufficient to cut through transporter interference, but the shield was still strong enough to prevent others (like the Klingons) without such identifying beacons? Or, finally, perhaps their top priority was 'every second counts' high-tailing it out of Klingon space, and were already underway by the time Kirk even said anything about the commandant?

I suspect it's a combination of "'rescue' is OK, but not kidnapping", and "Oh, by the way, let's get the heck out of Klingon space, shall we?"

I gotta agree on that one. Lingering around deep in klingon space, especially given the events of the voyager episode that touches on this and the usual klingon neighborly welcome, would not exactly be beneficial to the ol health.

You're probably right, Scott.

Aye, but can he change the laws of physics?

>>>BTW, as I've mentioned on the "Journey to Babel" board, this movie marks the first time we see one of the Enterprise crew members smoking. In this case, it's Kirk taking a puff off of Martia's cigar. Supposedly, no one smokes in the future. At least no one human. <<<

I don't think that's a regular cigar Kirk smokes, if you catch my drift; look at the bemused expression on his face after he takes a puff (almost as if he recognizes it for what I suspect it really is).

This movie has been playing on the HBO channels a lot this month. But, what's being shown is the original theatrical version, not the later video version, with the revelation that the "Klingon" assassin is really Col. West. Interestingly enough, when HBO first began to run this pic, in January 1993, they used the video version.

Don't know if this was mentioned before, because I didn't look in the archives, but what setting were those phasers on? Similar bodily damage can be done with your average laser, and I don't recall the same thing happening in ST before. I believe the two main purposes of having a phaser is that not only does it have several uses but also to prevent unnecessary injury and fluid loss; the kinder, gentler way to shoot somebody. Also, was making the Klingon blood purplish in this movie really that expensive to never do it again, or a couple times?

I asked this once but here goes.. Why would Sulu 's ship in the beta Quadrent need to know where the Supersecret conferance is and Kirk's Enterprise doesn't know at all?


Sulu: According to my information, its today

Kirk: We got a bird of prey that can fire while cloaked

(and Valaries didn't know at all)

Well, the Beta quadrant IS Klingon/Romulan space (at least, the area nearest the Alpha Quadrant, certainly not the whole thing. It also houses the Gorn and Tholians, I think... but don't quote me on that... anyhow, that's why I think it would be a good location for a Star Trek series.) So maybe Sulu and co. were nearby, or even acting as a patrol?

More importantly, though, I think that the Enterprise was keeping communications silence so that Starfleet Command couldn't reach them with orders not to rescue Kirk, etc. So they've been out of the loop, especially with the "Captain's Eyes Only" memos.

Martia isn't very bright.

She knows that Kirk & McCoy would be killed by trying to escape Rura Pente.

So...why did she morph into Kirk?

Don't know if this was asked before but why Sulu would know where the top secret conferance is and Kirk doesnt? Did starfleet assume Sulu would help Kirk in any way ?

and did the Enterprise-A have the same mission as Sulu?

uh... I think the Enterprise had sensors in general in case such an gas needed to be cataloged.

and JAL, she morphed into kirk because she was taunting kirk and mccoy. She probably got carried away with taunting kirk and so forth that she momentarily lost track of what was going on around her.

Even when the warden showed up and pointed a disruptor at them? Shouldn't she have morphed back then?

For once I agree with you, Luigi. Martia should've realized at that point that Kirk was going to get zapped.

Give a girl a chance Luigi... It takes a lot of effort.
Maybe she was just too shook up about what was going on and couldn't concentrate.

They might have been planning to kill her as well. But she wouldn't know that.

They almost certainly were; the warden says as much after he shoots her. But Martia, if she was smart, would have shifted back instead of playing the 'Not me, him!' game.

Is anybody going to the auction in NYC this week? The model used for this movie will be up for sale, along over 1,000 other items. If only I had about $50,000 lying around...

If only I had about $50,000 lying around...
You and me both. I'd love to bid the $25,000 asking price for the eight foot movie Enterprise model. IIRC, it's the original filming model used for the first six movies. Plus, there's sooo much other stuff being auctioned; I wish I had won that $200 million Powerball.

$100 million after taxes...

$100 million after taxes...
Actually, according to the newscast I heard yesterday, it's more like $67 million after taxes, since the winners are taking a lump sum, and not an annuity. Me, I'd probably do the same thing, since I'm closing in on 52, and I'd want that cash now. Ahh, perchance to dream....

BTW, anyone see that new DirecTV commercial? If you've seen it, you know why I'm mentioning it here.

I read somewhere that a model of the Enterprise went for $500K! I'm not sure if it was the one for these movies but eiter way I doubt $50K would be enough.

Well, the shooting model for all six movies was up for auction, so that's porbably it...

It wasn't the Enterprise A model, it was the 1701-D that sold for half-a-mil, 20x the asking price. I would imagine that most items at the auction sold for well over the asking price.

BTW, anyone see that new DirecTV commercial? If you've seen it, you know why I'm mentioning it here. - Adam Bomb
Got a chuckle out of me! More so, as I figure that Leonard Nimoy and Walter Koenig aren't getting a cent from this commercial.

A slightly more realistic version of this commercial, for anybody out there who has DirecTV...

Spock: "I'm detecting a radiation surge."

Chekov <severly hung over>: "Only the size of my head." <sigh>

Kirk: "On screen."

Spock: "Unable to comply. The radiation is interfering with the viewer."

Kirk: "Engineering! Scotty, what's happening?"

Scotty: "I cannae do a thing about it, Cap'n! It's the DirecTV feed, yae know we lose the signal in the slightest of ion storms."

Valeris: "Sir, how will we monitor the Klingons?"

Kirk: "Who cares about the Klingons? How will we get Boston Legal tonight? I need options, people!"

McCoy: "Damnit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a satellite repairman!"

Uhura: "Captain, I've opened a channel to DirecTV. They can have a technician beamed aborad next Tuesday. Sometime between 0800 and 2200 hours."

Kirk: "Not good enough! We're.. running.. out.. of.. TIME.. people! What about Sulu? Can Excelsior help us?"

Spock: "Captain Sulu has recently, ahem, declassified certain personal information. It would be illogical to assume that he would allow us the use of his viewscreen, as he will undoubtedly be watching Queer Eye for the Straight Starship Captain."

Kirk: "If this isn't the Kobayashi Maru, I don't know what is. How can a man be faced with such a no-win scenario?"

Valeris: "Sir, if I may? Could we not ask for help from the Klingons? Chancellor Gorkon may be receptive to such a request, in the spirit of Galactic Peace."

Kirk: "The Klingons? I could never trust the Klingons. I could never forgive them for the death of my boy." <sob>

Chekov: "Send them a case of Romulan ale, and maybe they'll TiVo it for us."

<Chekov's eyes roll back and he slumps over the nav console. McCoy lifts Chekov's head by his hair, scans his face, checks the reading and snorts. McCoy releases Chekov's hair. Chekov's head drops to the console with a thud and the electronic twittle of controls.>

Computer <muffled, from speaker under Chekov's face>: "Launching torpedo."
<A torpedo fires and strikes the Klingon vessel.>

Kirk: "Report!"

Spock: "We have fired on the Klingons."

McCoy: "We haven't fired!"
<McCoy nervously lifts Chekov's head by the hair. 2 control buttons are visible, one in green labeled "Galactic Peace", and one in red labeled "Never Trust Klingons". The red light flashes on the console. McCoy turns to Kirk, who was facing Spock and is now swinging his chair back to center. McCoy quickly drops Chekov's head, obscuring the console from Kirk's view. Chekov's head hits with a thud and an electronic twittle. Another torpedo fires and strikes the Klingon ship.>

Kirk: "What the Hell's going on? Scotty, report!"

Scott: "Um.. ah.. all torpedos visually accounted fer, Cap'n. We hav'na fired a single one! Engineering out!" <Sound of toilet flushing over comm>

Uhura: "Captain, I have a channel to the Klingon vessel. From what I can gather, their engines are disabled."

Kirk: "Maybe we can salvage something from this debacle. Valeris, get me 2 crewmen in the transporter room. Suit them up with gravity boots. Tell them to board the Klingon vessel and secure the Klingons' TiVo at all costs. Spock, I need a code Enron/Tyco/Ollie North on the data banks. We.. didn't.. fire! McCoy and I will beam over to the Klingon ship and make nicey-nice with Gorkon for a few minutes. Better get me a verillion patch, just in case they try to send us to one of those Klingon gulags or something."

Spock: "Opposite thinking, Captain."

Kirk <Settles back in the command chair, leans to the right, hand on his chin amd shows a wry grin.>: "I don't like to lose."

hey Ob, you should put that on Lines You'll never Hear..

and Obi, what was your first trek and how old where you? Where are ya? Im where they keep the whales.

And they had no lines cause they had to pay them!, if they did speak.

Obi-Juan - That was great!

Live long and prosper.

More so, as I figure that Leonard Nimoy and Walter Koenig aren't getting a cent from this commercial.

Actually they would have to get permission from them to use their images in the commercial. According to Screen Actors Guild rules footage shot for a production can only be used in that production without getting permission from the actor to use it in something else. This is done to prevent producers from taking footage of an actor that was shot for 1 movie (for which the actor was paid), chopping it up and putting it in other movies, and releasing those movies as co-starring that actor and not paying them for it, which is often done in the prono industry with early footage of stars after they make it big since porn films aren't guild productions.

For example in Enterprise's 2 part Mirror Universe episode the opening featured footage from Star Trek: First COntact they had to get permission from James Cromwell and the actor playing the Vulcan captian to use the footage of them that they than mixed with shots of body doubles shot for that ep.

Brian- a movie, 3 Musketers with Charlton Heston did that- the actors sued the director
/producer to death.

Correct it was cases like that and Crispen Glover's lawsuit aginst the producers of "Back to the Future II" for using footage from part I and a body double for several bits in the 1955 part of the movie that lead to the guild adopting rules about it in guild productions (which is almost every mainstream U.S. fiction production) to avoid those kinds of things.

Ah! Thanks for the info, Brian. Good to know that the SAG is protecting the actors' work. I knew that they had to pay royalties to use old John Wayne footage in commercials, so I should have guessed that Nimoy and Koenig wouldn't be left out.

Thanks for the kudos. This was actually a 2-line joke that just ballooned as I wrote it. For He's Dead, Jim!
- I was born in 1971, so I missed TOS!
- I've seen most of the TOS eps in syndication, although I don't know them by heart as a good Trekkie should. I'm enjoying seeing the digitally augmented episodes they're releasing.
- I was 8 years old when I saw ST:TMP. I didn't really understand it until I saw it again in my high school years.
- ST:TWoK is my favorite ST film, partly because I didn't have to be 19 to "get it", and partly because Ricardo Montalban is cooler than the Klingons and the Borg put together. I didn't see "Space Seed" until after I'd seen ST:TWoK.
- My allegiance is to TNG, which I personally thought was as good a series as TOS, and better acted.
- there are also parts of ST:DS9 that I liked. Beyond that, there is no Trek, IMO. Like Highlander fans who refuse to acknowledge H2 as a part of the franchise.
- I live in the Midwest. We have no whales here. Unless you count the Royals or Chiefs getting whaled on this week...

This was on over the weekend, and I noticed something so obvious I'm surprised I didn't see it earlier - apologies if it's already been done.

When Kirk and Marta/Kirk are rolling around on the floor fighting, the overhead shot shows them horizontally below McCoy's feet (like an upside down T), but in the next shot, they roll across him from his left to right.

3 Musketeers with Charlton Heston did that- the actors sued the director/producer to death.
IIRC, the basis for that suit (not just from Heston but most of the principals) was that they were paid for one movie, which was then cut up and released as two (an after-the-fact idea, that was done when all the footage was assembled). When the same producers (Alexander and Ilya Salkind) shot the first two Superman movies simultaneously in 1977, they were up-front about the fact that two movies were being shot at the same time.

And Charleton Heston said, "Get your stinkin' paws off my money you @#$% dirty director!

Er, John, its Charlton, actually my real name is..,

( google it for the name).

Actually they would have to get permission from them (Messrs. Nimoy and Koenig) to use their images in the commercial...
Especially Mr. Nimoy. If you remember, he saw his face (as Spock) in a billboard advertising Heineken beer in England c. 1975. He was livid, sued Paramount, and wouldn't read a script for Star Trek - TMP until the suit was settled.
BTW, there is another new DirecTV commercial out, with Christopher Lloyd back as Dr. Emmett Brown, using footage from BTTF I and II.

I think I heard that one on the radio. I couldn't believe it was him.

Despite the "50 years of oxygen on Q'Onos", the planet still supports life well into in Picard's era.

I guess the Praxis explosion wasn't that bad after all.

It could be a new planet they moved to. Or maybe they used massive industrial replicators to constantly replenish the planet's oxygen supply.

Or they fixed the problem. Wasn't the the point of the movie.

Something to the effect of "due to their enormous military budget the Klingons do not have the resources to combat this problem" That's why they wanted piece with the federation; so that they could devote their own resources, and possibly asking for some help from the feds, to fixing the problem rather than on a cold war.

The industrial replicators theory sounds very plausible to me. If you can easily generate extremely complex chemical compounds (re: food and tools) on a small-scale but common basis, how hard would it be to generate ozone and oxygen on a large scale, especially with 50 years to do it?

I agree, replicators would be a good short-term solution, perhaps allowing time to create more permanent enviornmental solutions.

Check this out (but you gotta scroll down a bit). Two unused movie posters, featuring the TOS cast.

Pity. I think those posters would have been better and more appropriate than the ones that were used.

Live long and prosper.

I realize that George Takei had campaigned for Sulu to be promoted to Captain & be assigned his own starship. And while that works out fine in this movie,did he not see the problem had Paramount continued to make more films with the original cast? Just how many more times could the writers create a plot & then work in Sulu & his starship to the adventures of the Enterprise? It would have really stretched credulity to see the Enterprise & the Excelsior teamed up for each film.

I think the idea was that he would get his own movies or tv show. Frankly, I would have liked that.

I'm not sure that anyone was thinking of them continuing the movie franchise. When they did ST VI it seemed that the idea was all around that it was going to be the last one to focus on the TOS cast. Hence the sign off of the actors at the end, hence the decommissioning of the ship at the end of the movie.

Yeah, IIRC, George had hoped for Sulu's promotion as far back as Star Trek II. That's why the script originally had Sulu getting command of Excelsior.

Just saw this again this weekend, along with the Rifftrax mp3 (the MST3K crew riffing on the movie). Quite humorous.

Not having read this thread before, and not having seen this since it was in the theaters, I was quite surprised at the "Mission: Impossible" ending with the mask removal and the reveal. I knew something was different as I had not recalled Rene A. being in the movie before, and there were a few other small differences as well.

I think this is the first one where Shatner really starts showing signs of hamming it up as Kirk rather than playing the character.

I should say that I think it was George Takai's idea/hope that Sulu would get his own movie/show. He pushed for it for years, IIRC.

Mike, Peter David does a pretty good job with two captains and two starships in his New Frontier series.

Spock describes the picture in his quarters as "The Expulsion from Paradise".

From a Biblical standpoint, that is incorrect.

It is: "The Expulsion from Eden"
(Or "the Garden of Eden")

Spock's logic in keeping it in his quarters is also flawed because he thinks of it as a reminder that all things end, when the expulsion from Eden is a depiction of the results of our choices. The end of "paradise" so to speak only occurred because rules were broken.

For Spock to relate to it would most logically be made by Spock breaking the rules.. and that's not very logical now is it. Yes, Spock does break plenty of orders in this movie, so him relating to the painting can be valid, but only if Spock keeps it in his quarters as a reminder of how our choices can play out.

Not to mention the fact that Spock considers the "Expulsion from Eden" a MYTH.

Is it logical to have a picture of something you don't believe in?

Sure. If you believe in the meaning behind the myth. That is, you believe what the myth is supposed to tell you about Life.

Live long and prosper.

I get it now. Thanks.

No problem. No charge, my friend.

Live long and prosper.

Torque: For Spock to relate to it would most logically be made by Spock breaking the rules.
Luigi Novi: I don't see why. He relates to it to the extent that the myth symbolizes to him that all things end. That's the nature of art. Everyone takes away something different from it. Who says he has to sympathize with the characters' disobedience in order to take an aesthetic liking to the image?

John A. Lang: Not to mention the fact that Spock considers the "Expulsion from Eden" a MYTH. Is it logical to have a picture of something you don't believe in?
Luigi Novi: I have the Harry Potter books on my bookshelf. Is this illogical if I don't believe that they're fictional?

No...but for Spock it would be...seeing he is a Vulcan.

Speaking of books, did you get a chance to read my book yet?

Picard: Starfleet wants to do away with buzzwords, so we have to rename the ship because "Enterprise" is a buzzword.

Riker: The words: "Next Generation" is a buzzword too, we'll have to rename the show too.

D. Troi: We're in deep muck!

Sorry. That was supposed to be on "Lines you'll never hear"

John Lang: No...but for Spock it would be...seeing he is a Vulcan.
Luigi Novi: How so? Since when is it illogical to read a book that one acknowledges is fiction?

And no, I haven't yet read it.

I see your point.

Since when is this depiction from the bible? Spock only says it is from "ancient Earth mythology." Many ancient myths have "expulsions from paradise." Nowhere is there anything referring the painting to the biblical story of Adam and Eve being kicked out of Eden. Besides, Star Trek found Eden in STV

No, they found a being claiming to be the Almighty in STV. They found Eden in The Way To Eden.

I believe Spock referred to it as "the" expulsion from paradise, which I think would indicate the Biblical version.

When Excelsior is hit by the energy wave the helmsman tells Sulu that the helm is not responding. Seconds later Sulu tells the helmsman to turn the ship into the wave, which they manage to do. If the helm is not responding that sort of implies that they have no control over the ships movement, and shouldn't have been able to turn the ship.

The Enterprise crew makes an astonishing leap of logic while trying to figure out how Kronos one was shot.
Spock works through the facts, allowing the rest of the crew to come to the same conclusion he did - namely that Kronos one was shot by a cloaked ship hiding under Enterprise. Nothing wrong with all this in itself. However the entire crew at this point instantly jumps to the conclusion that the ship was a bird of prey - something Spock repeats.

How can they reach this conclusion on the evidence they have? The bird of prey is only one class of Klingon ship, and we know from Voyager (when he see Kang's D-7 ship) that it is not the only class of Klingon ship that has a cloaking device - in fact it would seem that all Klingon warships have cloaking devices (Kor in DS9 recounts that his ship was one of the first to get a cloaking device, and his ship wasn't a bird of prey). So how could they know what class of ship was hiding under them?

On the same topic it is another jump from concluding that there was a cloaked ship under Enterprise, to saying it was a Klingon ship. Romulan's ALSO have cloaking devices, and a viable reason for trying to stop the peace process so their two major opponents go to war with each other.

In both cases the crew instantly jumps to the conclusion about the class and origin of the cloaked ship not supported by any of the evidence they have available.


In the version that includes Colonel West there is a major nit. After the Federation President talks to the Klingon Ambassador West comes into the room to discuss a military plan to rescue Kirk.
The problem? The Romulan ambassador is still in the room at the time, in fact the President asks him for his opinion. Is the Federation really in the habit of discussing military operations in front of Ambassadors from other powers they are not allied with?

I've always had a problem with phasers on TNG. My problem is that they don't seem to have any kind of safety device/catch. (Countless times on TNG onwards people pick phasers up and fire them without having to push anything. It doesn't help that none of the technical guides I've seen for any type of phaser include a safety catch. Even Enterprise shows the same thing with phase pistols, where no one has to flick any switches unless they are altering the setting. One of the better views of this comes from DS9 where O'Brian takes a phaser out of a storage rack to kill himself in Hard Times. We can see him change the phaser to full power, but at no point does he touch anything other than the button that controls the intensity setting).
Here we see Valaris take a phaser out of a storage rack and vaporise a large pot. Now, she does slap the top of the phaser before firing and it makes a chirping noise indicating that she's doing something to it. The problem is that she is either taking the safety off - in which case phasers are stored on the disintegrate setting. Or she is altering the phasers setting and there is no safety device/switch on phasers.

The Enterprise gets hit by a torpedo which blasts a large section out of the hull. After this Scotty shouts 'Shields failing Captain!'. So are we to conclude that the shields were working just fine before the torpedo hit, yet the torpedo still managed to do that much damage? Ouch!

The Excelsior arrives, puts its shields up and then gets hit under the saucer section by a torpedo. At this half the bridge stations explode, even though the shields are at full strength, and the crew goes flying from side to side - even though the force of the blow should have been upwards and not side to side.

The Enterprise gets hit by a torpedo which blasts a large section out of the hull. After this Scotty shouts 'Shields failing Captain!'. So are we to conclude that the shields were working just fine before the torpedo hit, yet the torpedo still managed to do that much damage? Ouch!

With shield percentages, does for example, 75% shielding mean that the shields block 75% of the energy but 25% gets through?

Though perhaps not. I remember them mentioning the shield strength of the antimatter containment field. Once it went below a certain level, it wasn't strong enough to hold contain the antimatter.

Maybe once shields are down to a certain level, they simply cannot contain certain hits and/or at least some hits get through.

Could also be like having a physical shield where each hit decreases its integrity but until it's down to a certain level, the shield is still effective.

I seem to recall that in Yesterdays Enterprise Tashia Yar had a line that compared the shield strengths of Enterprises C&D. She said something about the Ent D's shields having twice the energy dissipation rate of the older ship. From this I could guess that shield strength is a measure of how much energy the shields can absorb and redirect away from the ship. This would also tally from what I can remember from the technical manual. (Although TPTB decided that the technical guides are not cannon, even though they were written originally as guides for the writers and used as such on TNG. This is why I'm looking at episodes as well as that IS cannon).
Mixing together everything said about shields from TNG and DS9, and assuming that shields work the same way in Kirk and Picard's time, I think shields can be measured in two ways;

The amount of energy they can dissipate in total. This is the 'strength' of the shield. Hence if a shield can normally handle 100 energy units and it is at 40% strength it can only handle 40 energy units.
Shields work by absorbing energy then redirecting to away from the ship, but the energy absorbed lowers the total of energy the shields can absorb until that energy can be redirected.

The speed at which energy can be dissipated (or at which the shields can recharge). If the shields can dissipate 10 energy units per second and a weapon only impacts with 5 units then that weapon would have to fire 3 times per second to damage the shields.
This explains why Enterprise(s) have sometimes been able to sit there while being shot at without taking any damage - the attacking ship just couldn't damage the ship faster than the shields can regenerate.

Both of the above tallies with the way shields have been seen to work on screen. But to this there must be added explanations as to why ships can take damage with the shields at full strength, and why ships sometimes have less than 100% power.

Damage; Since ships have been seen taking damage even with full shields we can guess that;

Some energy may bleed through the shields. Shields do not cover all energy frequencies but have gaps to allow their own weapons and sensors to work. Energy impacting on the shields may shift to frequencies that will pass through the shields.

Shields can only absorb a set amount of energy in a very short period of time. Large amounts of energy striking in the same location may lead to shields at that location failing for a short period of time, even if the total energy is still less than the total strength of the shields.

Less than 100%; Absorbing large amounts of energy in a short period of time may damage the shield generators. This might lead to the shields being unable to handle as much energy as normal.

Damage to the ship may result in less power being available to the shields, either because the power generators are producing less or because power conduits can't handle as much power as before.


None of the above though explains the damage done to the Enterprise A here. If the torpedo's could do more damage than the shields could handle in a small area then they should have failed to protect against ANY of the torpedo hits - more so since Chang's ship was only firing one torpedo at a time. Likewise if some of the energy from the torpedo hits was bleeding through the shields to vaporise around 100 square meters of the hull then all the torpedo hits should have done the same degree of damage.
The display Scotty looks at as he calls 'shields failing' shows the ships shields as all being green - which normally indicates that a system is working at or near full power and is undamaged. This display doesn't flicker to indicate a problem with the shields until after the torpedo has hit. If the torpedo's were capable of doing that much damage through shields in full working order then they should have been doing the same amount of damage to the ship all the time.


Nit; Spock and McCoy modify a torpedo to track the gas produced by the Bird of Preys engine. The nit here is that when the torpedo hits Chang's ship it hits the Bridge, which is at the front of the ship, not the engines which are located at the very back of the ship. The only two explanations I can think of for this are;

Chang's ship just did a 180 degree turn.

Chang produces more hot gas that the ships engines.

Only thing I can think of is that the Enterprise's shields may be projected by more than one emitter. As each emitter becomes damaged, the shields covering that section of the ship become weaker before ultimately failing. There may be some overlap, but it is possible that while the shields protecting the upper part of the ship are at nearly full strength, the shield protecting the underside of the saucer are nearly gone. That would reconcile Scotty's statement that the shields are failing, since sections are becoming unprotected, while still allowing the Klingon torpedo to do that much damage to the underside of the saucer. At some point, the various sections failing shields may overload the system, giving us the good old "Shields down!" line.

Ever noticed that this is the only TOS movie in which the Enterprise battles unimpaired? Actually, if you want to be fair, First Contact is probably the only movie where an Enterprise is in a 'fair fight'...

ST:TMP - Not much to battle, but if they had, ship had bugs, and no shakedown.
TWOK - Only trainees as crew.
SFS - Barely functional, and on 98% automation.
TVH - It was dead, Jim. Even if there'd been a battle, we know the Enterprise would have been in bad shape because of...
TFF - ...the new Enterprise being put together by monkeys. (Or was it by the Monkees? Perhaps they were too busy singing...) Again, the ship was half-functional.
TUC - Functional ship, but a 'cheating' opponent- Enterprise was practically impaired due to their inabillity to see their target. (And, just like in Nemesis... can't advanced Federation computer extrapolate the origin of a straight-line torpedo or beam and return fire in that direction?)
ST:G - Enterprise-D in tip-top shape, but opponent is again 'cheating,' this time by being able to fire through shields.
ST:FC - For once, the Enterprise is functional and the opponent plays fair... when you can only say that about THE BORG in Star Trek films... something strange is going on.
ST:I - The Enterprise isn't equipped for the Briar Patch and has to be careful of volatile gasses- thus it's impaired once again.
ST:N - As in Undiscovered Country, the Enterprise is whole... but the enemy cheats by firing from an invisible position!

It seems that, with so many scrapes gotten into and out of by the crew in the respective TV series, the only way to threaten them is to cheat! :-) Any guesses on which route ST XI will take?

It's not star Trek XI it's startrek zero

I posted this on the page for Star Trek II, but it's also relevant here. Nicholas Meyer has written a book about his Trek experiences, titled The View from the Bridge: Memories of Star Trek and a Life in Hollywood. It will be released 8/20/09, and more information can be obtained here.

I don't think the crew's anti Klingon ism was so unlikely, they may have spent 78 episodes saying that prejudice no longer exists but they spent at least a dozen of those episodes having Klingons trying to kill them and generally acting untrustworthy. They were also the main antagonist of 2 movies and were making life difficult in 4 as well. A race of people constantly trying to kill you would change you opinions of them.

I agree, epically Kirk. A Klingon commander killed his son and after the details came to light the Klingon Empire refused to condemn Commander Kruge and even demanded Kirk be turned over to them for trial.

Side note: That whole "there will be no peace as long as Kirk lives" scene in ST:IV was put in as a lead-in for a possible story idea for ST:V, which would have involved Kirk's capture & trial by the Klingons. They chose to go another way with ST:V's story but recycled the idea of a Klingon trial with Kirk and Bones in this film.

In Phil's Classic Trek guide he mentions that the Klingons also wanted to charge Kirk for the events in ST:III and never did in this movie despite having him as a prisoner. The creators have admitted that they originally considered that, but they felt it would have just bogged the movie down with unnecessary exposition that would detract from the main plot of this film.

I was wondering if it was true that Gene Roddenberry considered some of this film to be apocryphal, the same way he did with the animated series and the whole concept of Sybok from Final Frontier.

And if he did, was what he thought was not "real Trek" all the anti-Klingon prejudice that was rampant throughout this film? I remember reading somewhere that because Gene was, unfortunatly, very ill in 1990-1991 and therefore had virtually no say in the making of Star Trek VI. I also remember somewhere that it was said that he had at least read the script and did not approve of all the inherent racism towards the Klingons and how "they all look alike" and how "they all smell bad". Of course it was the two crewmen/assassins who were heard saying these things, and they themeselves were murdered after they had played their part in the conspiracy that was going on.

I just posted on the "Friday's Child" board concerning Kirk's attitude towards Klingons as a whole, and how at some point in these Trek movies, as a result of the Klingons killing his son, he would not hesitate to "kill them on sight". Back in TOS, the Federation and the Empire were never really involved in out-right war (thanks to the intervention from the Organians and the Peace Treaty they imposed on them). But during the events of the third and fifth movies, it seemed as if the Klingons were declaring war on the Federation, even though Kruge attacked the Enterprise outright attempting to steal the secret of Project Genesis, and Klaa pursued the Enterprise without authorization and would later be demoted and assigned menial duties on Qonos, such as translator at Kirk and McCoy's trial.

Anyway, I just wonder if this movie was released the way it was *after* Gene's death, because he could no longer say that certain things that were happening in the Trek Universe were wrong and immoral (Chain Of Command and Gambit come to mind) and as a result, many years later, Berman and Braga could spit on his memory with impunity and proceed to have things happen in Trek that Gene NEVER would have approved of!

The racist dialogue in this film (namely "they all look alike") is what probably led to Quark telling Nog that "all hew-mons look alike" when Nog studied a text on Earth history and remarked that Gabriel Bell looked a lot like Captain Sisko. Of course, we all know how *that* happened! (See "Past Tense, Parts 1 & 2) It was a clever parody of an inappropriate and unneccessary moment in Trek history!

Whew. Well, I shall step off my soapbox now.

Kirk says in this film that he thought shape-shifters were mythical. Is this the same guy who had the adventures of "The Man Trap" and "Whom Gods Destroy".?

He doesn't say he thought shape-shifters were mythical.

After Martia says, "I'm a Chameloid", Kirk says, "Shapeshifters. I thought you were mythical."

Now this is just me, but when he says "you", I thought he meant her specific species, Chameloids.

Though, ironically, every shape-shifting species in Trek is typically treated as mythological or unheard-of or legend... so, conceptually, at least, I get what Todd's saying, (though I do agree with you on the phrasing in that particular instance, Luigi) something that always seemed like a nit to me, as well.

Twenty years ago last Tuesday, this movie was released. (Paramount's original plans were to open it on the 13th, but for some reason they moved it up a week.) Here's a multi-tiered video retrospective from Trekmovie.com. It includes the 2006 DirecTV ad, an MTV Trek retrospective hosted by (as Troi) Marina Sirtis, and that great (and I do mean great) teaser trailer, narrated by Christopher Plummer. Enjoy it; I sure did.

Just rewatched it. Some of the nits (as Phil pointed out in the book) are pretty noticeable, such as the "retrograde anomaly" where the 23rd century controls look exactly like 20th century sound mixing boards.

The kitchen scene is just weird. I could possibly see a VIP mess where fresh food was prepared, but with a full rack of phasers? Maybe that's how they caramelize the creme brule.

As for smoking, I saw a publicity photo shown at one convention prior to the release of TWOK that showed Merritt Butrick (David) with a cigarette in his hand. Whoops -- the character may not smoke, but the actor did. His appearance in a photo in Kirk's quarters is all the more poignant in that Butrick died in 1989; TUC was released in 1991.

At the beginning of TUC, the first clue is that something is wrong is that the ship starts to vibrate. Sulu's teacup is more sensitive than any other sensor in the ship? No alarms go off until after his teacup falls off the table.

I won't rehash the debate on the "mind rape"; I will note, though, that Kirk proposed Spock use it on Kryton in "Elaan of Troyius". (Kryton committed suicide first.)

The planet for the peace conference seems to have a strange lack of security for such a high-level meeting. Nobody notices a space battle going on in orbit? Anyone can beam right down to the council floor? Balconies overlooking the floor are unsecured and unpatrolled? Nobody's bags were screened for phasers?

We've seen planet-sized deflector screens that have prevented any outside force before -- "Whom Gods Destroy" for example. The Enterprise was unable to breach it with the transporter or phasers.

(Possible anti-nit: the conspirators were high enough in the Federation and Klingon empire to deliberately leave the security lax. It seems improbable that it would not have been discovered after the fact, though. Maybe they counted on starting the war, and it being unstoppable even if they were discovered.)

McCoy is helping refitting a torpedo to detect gaseous anomalies? Even if Scotty is otherwise occupied keeping the ship together, wouldn't any of the other engineering staff be more suited to help?

The DVD doesn't fix the "Uhuru" typo in the closing credits.

Thanks to the "miracle" of HDTV, you can catch these little things:
When the teacup falls and breaks, it lands upside down. You can see the "Pfaltzgraff" logo on the bottom of the cup.
When Spock and Valeris are conferring in Spock's quarters, in a profile shot of Spock, you can see a break in his right eyebrow.
The Klingon three-spoke symbol is visible on the studs of Gen. Chang's eye patch.

Ed Harris over at The Agony Booth has written a pretty fair minded essay on this movie. It can be read here. Check out the captions for the screenshots; they're hilarious.

Blu-Ray nit - The running time listed on the back of the Blu-Ray case for this flick is 113 minutes. But - that's the run time of the old VHS/original DVD release, with the additional footage. The Blu-Ray contains the theatrical version, which runs 110 minutes. In fact, the original video version has pretty much disappeared; when there's a pay-cable window, the theatrical version is run. If you have the video version, hang on to it.

By Fred W. Kidd (Fkidd) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 11:41 am: In the scenes where the "Enterprise" fires on the Klingon ship, the gravity is lost and Gorkon says (in English subtitles) "Find Chang!" In Klingon, he says (phonetically) "kung gay dar shom". Either Gorkon is calling Chang by another name, or Klingon for Chang is different than English.

Gorkon actually says Chang gay dar shom, IIRC. I will check and get back to you.

In keeping with the Cold War theme... The commandant of Rura Penthe has... not quite an accent, but a Slavic intonation... when he gives his "welcome" speech to Kirk and McCoy.

Here's a new review from Entertaiment Weekly.

The commandant of Rura Penthe has... not quite an accent, but a Slavic intonation... when he gives his "welcome" speech to Kirk and McCoy.

He was played by W. Morgan Sheppard, who also played Ira Graves on TNG's The Schizoid Man.

As well as the condescending "Your human mother" Vulcan in the rebooted Star Trek film from 2009!

In the TNG era, women are not allowed to serve on the Klingon High Council. Yet, in this movie, Gorkon's daughter becomes the new Klingon Chancellor!

I wonder what happened in the following decades that changed the rules so women could no longer serve on the Council. I mean they're allowed to go into battle and such, after all.

Maybe Gorkon's daughter was the only female to serve as Chancellor, and it didn't go well, as far as the Old Guard was concerned, so by the TNG era it's back to men only.

I guess that's it. As I said, it can't be a misogynistic thing, as Klingon women are allowed to serve in the military and go into combat, after all.

Are you just talking about movies mentioning colonel Tim? I ask because I think there a colonel mentioned as part of the MACOs on ENT. Granted the highest rank assigned to the NX-01 was a major, but I could've sworn a colonel was referenced at some point early in season three.

That could just be an assumption though!

Kira became a colonel in the last season of Deep Space 9.

I guess I should amend my statement to say that this movie was the first and last time the rank of "Colonel" was applied to a Starfleet officer.

The other examples were either outside the Federation (Kira) or pre-dated it (the MACOS, which were specifically said not to be part of Starfleet).

Maybe West officially had a Starfleet rank, but was a traditionalist.

During the events of Trials and Tribble-Ations, perhaps?

Except he would have been a couple of decades too early.

I got booted off a Trek mailing list for calling Brock Peter's character the annoying black guy and saying he had all the depth of a kiddie pool.

Who the heck is Brock Peter? Even Google doesn't seem to know. O.o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brock_Peters

You left an "s" off his name, Natalie.

I don't know if this has been pointed out before, but there were three ships running on impulse power involved in the Khitomer battle. How did the torpedo know which exhaust trail to follow so it would not target the wrong ship?

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quote:

How did the torpedo know which exhaust trail to follow so it would not target the wrong ship?

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Also the Enterprise knew the general direction the Klingon fire was coming from and sent the torpedo that way. Its own momentum meant it would most likely lock on to the correct exhaust signature. It's also possible, although not stated, that Spock knew Klingon plasma exhaust is distinct from Federation ships and programmed it in.

I was thinking that, JD

JD - Klingon plasma exhaust is distinct

It smells like lilacs? ;-)

Yup.

Probably smells more like Pepto Bismol, considering the look of their blood. But there is a cherry flavor of that, so lilacs is probably close enough!

Of course, all the other times we see Klingon blood, it looks like human blood.

A youtuber has given us a much better version of the Enterprise preparing to leave Spacedock and exiting at one-quarter impulse. Amazing detail, and just 3 minutes long. Also gives us an impressive idea of just how gigantic Spacedock really is.

https://youtu.be/OdRUL8RbDw8

Interesting.

Awesome is what came to mind.

What he said

I think Admiral Cartwright may have turned up in the old star Trek novels, and fleshed out his character more, but a comment in a video from trekculture caught my attention. Cartwright appears in their list of Top 10 Worst Admirals In Starfleet, but they also note he's highly decorated.
That got me thinking that no matter what he did in this movie, I wonder if he got a lighter sentence in lieu of everything he did right during his career? Kirk should have found himself in prison after 'Star Trek III', but he did save Earth (again) after that, and he's also one of the reasons there even is a Federation still standing by Picard's time.
So I'm wondering, after seeing all those medals on Cartwright's uniform, if he was even thrown in prison for life. He may have been a great starship captain in his day, saved Earth and other planets, and this would have to be taken into consideration. Sure, he conspired to kill the President of the Federation, but what if he's singularly responsible for saving the planet Vulcan and the billions of lives there on a previous mission?
I guess we'll never know.

Cartwright also played a part in the murder of the Klingon Chancellor. The Empire might want him extradited to them to face charges on that count.

I know for a fact that there are two bunk beds available on Rura Penthe!

Yup.

Hope he likes the cold.