• The Lord of the Rings (Old Discussion) April 15 - 11:50 am

• Board 2 January 01 - 9:09 am

I hate to have to be the one to say this… (cover your ears, Lea!), but on today's first half hour or "Who Wants to be a Millionaire," the $500,000 question was, "Which of these characters are not Pokémon? A: Jigglypuff. B: Frodo. C: Squirtle. D: Pikachu." As we all know, the answer was B. The contestant was a complete moron and couldn't get it even after using his 50/50 lifeline. Regis later explained that "Frodo, as we all know, was from The Hobbit."

Is that your final answer, Reg? Because unless I'm missing my guess, Frodo never appeared in The Hobbit.Frodo was the protagonist of the main Lord of the Ringstrilogy. Even I, who's only read the first 150 pages of Fellowship of the Rings,know this. Duh, Reg!

Nit. Return of the King, Appendix A, page 389.

It is stated that after the fall of Gil-Galad, Elrond (and his children) and the heirs of Elendil were the only members of the line of the High Kings of the Noldor (wording varies, I'm at work right now).

Gee, I guess he forgot about Galadriel.

Nit. Return of the King. This is a typo that *STILL* exists (I have seen it fromt the '60s Ace paperbacks to the current Ballantines).

Pippin and Beregond are discussing what to do about Denethor's funeral pyre for Faramir. Beregond states that he cannot leave his post without orders. Pippin replies "... and as for others, I think you have a madman to deal with, not a lord" (again, wording varies, as I am at work, and emphasis is mine, but the word "others" is in fact in the text). The highlighted word should be "orders", not "others".

Gee, guess what I read last night?

Question about Noldorin descent, vaguely tied into your first nit: in Fellowship chapter 3 (or whatever), Frodo and company meet up with Gildor Inglorion, of the house of Finrod. Is he part of the line of the High Kings or what? I suppose "of the house of Finrod" doesn't mean he's necessarily related...

It's also worth noting that "Inglorion" means "son of Inglor" -- and that Inglor was the original name of Finrod. (To make matters more confusing, Finrod was the original name of Finarfin.)

Elves -- keeping track of them is a full time job! ;-)

An update for the upcomming "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. The trailor that was shown at a convention in New Zealand will be released at The Official Lord of the Rings website in six days. It will be released on April 7.

Anti-Nit (sort of)

Don't forget the premise that the stories and other writings are translations and extractions from the Red Book, which is, itself, a collection of translations and extractions. Obviously the piece that claimed Elrond's family were the last of the Noldorian Royal house was written before other survivors (like Gildor) were discovered, and the author forgot, or never knew, about Galadriel.

I found some more Hobbit movie news at E!Online.

The author forgot, or never knew, about Galadriel

The (original) author(s) were Bilbo, Frodo and Sam! How could they not know about Galadriel? Unless, of course, you refer to them not knowing about her membership in the royal house of the Noldor? Though Bilbo spent 20 years in Rivendell, Frodo was quite learned, and Sam visited often with the King Elessar, this fact never arose? I don't think so.

"The (original) author(s) were Bilbo, Frodo and Sam! "

The portions of the Red Book about the First and Second ages were copied from books in the libraries of Rivendell and Minas Tirith.

The "original" author I refered to wrote some of those books.

(For more detail, see the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and the series The History of Middle-Earth (The Lost Tales, The Lays of Beleriand, etc.)

For more detail, see the Silmarillion

OK, how could THAT author not know about Galadriel?

Since my post of April 1 specifically addresses the thrust of your question, I am not sure whether to take it seriously. But assuming that you are serious, let me elaborate.

The libraries at Rivendell and Minas Tirith had many books written during the Second and early Third Ages. Many of them also dealt with events of the First Age.

These books were written at different times and different places by different authors. Not all of the authors knew the Noldor or the descendants of Eärendil. To many of these authors, the tales were only legends, and they may not have encountered all of them. So it is not surprising that one author of one poem or saga might have been ignorant of Galadriel.

Anticipating your next question, yes, the Fairbairns and their ancestors did know about Galadriel, but if the poem or saga was considered beautiful or important, the fact that it was slightly inaccurate one a reltively minor point would not have been reason enough to exclude it from their collection, which is how it wound up in the Red Book.

I am way impressed by the political stability of the Kingdoms of Men in the Third Age. Elendil's line reigns continuously in Gondor for 2050 years (this is like Julius Caesar's kin ruling Italy today) and then descendents of Mardil the Good Steward hold the throne for another 1,000 years. Finally, Aragorn son of Arathorn comes to claim a kingship which is still stable and happy after 3018 years (this is like the heir of the Biblical Joshua ben-Nun coming to rule over modern Israel). These guys must have some political secrets that we don't have.

Sauron's entire plan is worthless. When he figures out that he is a giant eyeball and thus has no fingers to wear a ring!

Sorry, Matt. He can change back and forth.

Gollum [talking to Frodo in the Emyn Muil]: He has only four on the black hand, yes he does, my precious!

Ed. Note: I may have the quote wrong.

"Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough."

But his shapeshifting abilities were stripped from him when he reincarnated after Numendor sank.

No, he was simply unable to take a pleasing form.

Remember, he was humaniform at the end of the Siege of Barad-Dur, since Isildur cut off his ring. I suspect he can take many forms, just that after the fall of Numenor, he is unable to take a fair form. Note, in the Silmarillion, in the tale of Luthien and Beren, he is described as taking the form of a vampire.

In Return of the King, The Tale of Years (Appendix B). The entries for SR 1455 and 1462 are identical (except for Samwise's term as mayor, and the comment about the Westmarch being newly inhabited). I guess it took 7 years for Elanor and Fastred to move to the Westmarch (those darn movers!). I also guess that Aragorn was showing signs of incipient senility, since he forgot that he appointed E&F as the Wardens in SR 1455, and reappointed them in SR 1462.

While Gondor's stability is remarkable, let us not forget that little civil war they had, the Kin-Strife. (I can't remember the year, but it was between TA 1000 and the ascedence of Mardil.)

Then again, the dynasty of the House of Elros ruled for three millenia on Numenor and then another two in the kingdoms in exile (followed by the hiatus between Earnur and Aragorn). A six-thousand year old dynasty is more than ten times as long as the longest Chinese dynasty.

It was from 1432-1447 T.A. It ended with Eldacar regaining the throne from Castamir the Usurper. (I have my copy of RotK right here and just checked AppendixB).

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to count the House of Elros as a single dynasty ruling in both Numenor and Middle-earth. By the laws of Numenor, Silmarien and her descendants weren't actually in the royal line. (Yes, I know the law was changed later, but _at the time_, they weren't.)

In addition, I don't think a government in exile counts for purposes of calculating the lifetime of a dynasty, particularly when they never returned from exile. The government of Numenor was effectively overthrown, by Ar-Pharazon's coup (he was in the royal family, but he wasn't legally supposed to become king) and then by Sauron's manipulation.

If we can do that, though, why not trace their ancestry back a few generations? How long did the Houses of Finwe and Thingol, and all their descendants, including the House of Elros, rule over _something_? (It's been demonstrated pretty convincingly that every human and Elven monarch in LOTR and the Silmarillion is related to Elrond.) Do we count Finwe himself leading the Tatyar on the Great Journey? It must have been an obscenely long time--at least fifteen thousand years.

But I suppose they cheated.

I don't believe that Theoden was related to Elrond.

Oh, and why stop at the Great Journey? We can trace the Line of Elros back to the Ainulindale! Remember, Luthien was the daughter of Melian.

Theoden was a descendant of Eorl, who was a descendant of Vidugavia, who was related to the House of Elendil.

I admit, though, that this is the weakest link in the whole thing. Eorl was _probably_ descended from Vidugavia. This isn't entirely certain.

Ah, but Vidugavia was related by marriage (his daughter married into the family).

Pardon me, I should have finished...

So Theoden and Aragorn were probably distant cousins, but only Aragorn was descended from Elros.

I didn't say everyone was related to Elrond by blood.

Actually, the one I'm still uncertain about is Thranduil. Is he related to anyone?

He's Legolas's dad, isn't he?

He's probably distantly related to Thingol somehow. He's described in "Unfinished Tales" as a either a Sindarin or a Nandorin Elf, can't remember which, and I'm at work right now so I can't double check.

He's Sindarin. I suspect his connection with Thingol is actually mentioned somewhere in UT, but I don't have the book at school with me and can't check. I do remember the Sindarin thing for sure, though.

In UT, p.258-9, Thranduil is listed as the son of Oropher, who is only listed as of Sindarin origin.
Oropher died during the Siege of Barad-Dur, and Thranduil also marched with the Last Alliance.

Nowhere does it explicitly give a relationship between Thingol and Oropher, except to say that "Thranduil was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath", when he built his halls in Greenwood the Great.

Legolas was in fact Thranduil's son.

So who was the Oldest,Tom Bombadil or Treebeard?
In FELLOWSHIP OF THE RINGS they make it sound like
Tom Bombadil is the Oldest,but later on in
THE TWO TOWERS it sounds like Treebeard,so which
exactly is it?

I believe in THE SIMILARILION Galadriel was one
of the original Exiles that followed the Sons of
Feanor.

Interesting if you view the Dwarf genealogy in
THE RETURN OF THE KING,appendix A Gimli was actually a distant cousin of Thorin Oakenshield.

Also it seems that Sam was the only Hobbit NOT
related to Frodo as not only Bilbo was his uncle
but Pippin,Merry and Fatty were all cousins of
his(and I thought MY family tree got a bit
convaluted and confusing at times!)

Since Arwen Morningstar was the daugther of Elrond
and since Aragorn was descended from Elrond's brother Elros wouldn't that make them some sort
of distant first cousins?

If the Palantir was THAT important to Saruman
why did he keep it where ANYONE could pick it up?

Yeah, first cousins several thousand times removed. And someone has to say it... Evenstar. Perhaps Arwen Morningstar can be the spiffed-up Luthienized film version! ;-)

By the way, does anyone else buy the theory that Elves and Dwarves hate each other because Dwarves are Jewish and Elves are antisemetic?

Work with me here-- I just heard this one. We've got the short little guys with covered heads and beards, usually the local folks associated with trade in gold and valuables, "more or less decent folk if you don't expect too much of them," with a distinct penchant for avarice. Also in the Valaquenta, it says that the Dwarves were created first and then the Elves cut in, leaving the little guys bitter and resentful.

No dwarf is particularly distinguished by heroism and selfless noble deeds except Gimli... Gimli the Elf-Friend who is brought around by the kindness of the Elf-Lady and who worships her ever after. I wouldn't have made this connection, by a friend pointed it out... when Galadriel blesses Gimli with a parting gift... he ask for ONE hair, and she gives him THREE. Coincidence?

Strange question: I have read the german book. Bilbo celebrates his 111st birthday, in german "Einundelfzig" What is it in original English? "Eleventy-first"? And what are "Knullen" (Potatos) in the English Book?

Yes, it is "Eleventy-One" and "Eleventy-First".

I'm not sure about "Knullen", what's the context?

Bilbo's neighbor the gardener is rather proud of his "taters" (rural slang for "potatoes")... is that what you mean?

That would be the Gaffer, Sam's father.

Also it seems that Sam was the only Hobbit NOT
related to Frodo

Don't forget Fredegar "Fatty" Bolger. I don't think he's realted either. Again, I'm at work, so I can't reference my copy of RotK.

Sorry, ScottN, Fredegar *is* related to Frodo. He is also decended from the Old Took. Check the family trees when you get home--he's in the Took one.

Ah, OK. He is related, but since he doesn't sell houses, he isn't realted either

To KiraSharp

Yes, the "taters" are that I ment with "Knullen". Thanks!

A long time in coming... my first BIG nit...

When Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli arraign Boromir for his funeral, they place his cloven horn in his lap. Later Faramir sees the funeral boat exactly as the Three Friends prepared it... except that the horn is now missing. The horn later turns up at the reeds by the river's edge. What is going on here? How did Boromir's horn fall out of the boat while everything else is still intact?

As to wheter the Dwarves symbolized the Jews and
the Elves are anitSemitic,I think it be the other
way around myself;if anything to me the Elves would be the more likely ones to symbolize the
Jews.
But I don't think Tolkien meant it to be either
way.
As Freud might say sometimes a Elf is just an
Elf and a Dwarf is just a Dwarf!


btw:It seems that one of the more interesting
commentaries on the series that keeps coming up
is the fact that not only is Aaragon cited constatnly as the true hero of the series,but also
that he is also cited as a Christ figure.

I think Tolkien would discourage those sorts of interpretations. He did not set to write a Christian allegory as his friend C.S. Lewis did.

I'll try to get this right without referencing the books.

OK. It's stated pretty emphatically in more than one place that there were three unions of elf and man, that is, there were three times an elf married a man, which were:

1. Beren and Luthien
2. Tuor and Idril
3. Aragorn and Arwen

So the nit is the Prince of Dol Amroth. When he first shows up in Chapter 1 of Return of the King, Tolkien says something about the elvish strain in his line, and he's not talking about the general elvish strain in all Numenorean blood either. Remember, Legolas says something along the lines of

"Gee wiz, then it's true that not all the people of Nimrodel sailed away across the Sea!"

"Yes," said the Prance of Dol Amroth. "So it is still said in my snobby country."

Not conclusive enough? Unfinished Tales goes so far as to say that a man of Dol Amroth married an elf maiden who was one of Nimrodel's people. So wouldn't that make at least four unions of elf and man? Or are they only counting the important ones?

And speaking of Tuor, does anyone know what happened to him and to Idril? He went sailing off into the west, and supposedly the saying went that he alone of mortal men was counted among the elves, right?

First of all, I don't see any reason why his ship wouldn't just be lost like all the others that had been sent out. Weren't he and Idril under the Doom of Mandos, or at least Idril, and therefore unable to return to Valinor. Earendil finally made in to Valinor, but he had the Silmaril. The Valar only accepted him there because he was the messanger appointed by fate, I suppose, to beg the pardon on behalf of elves and men. Why would they let Tuor show up? Did Ulmo intercede?

Second, Luthien had to do quite a bit just to be counted among the mortals, like return from the dead, and didn't the Valar say that even they couldn't change the fate of men? Maybe Eru himself could have, but why would he do that for Tuor? Hey, I'm not putting the knock on Tuor, but I just don't get it.

My guess is that Tuor went to the Undying lands, but had to stay on that Island until he died. Although, I'm guessing since the Similarian was never released in final form, the problem comes from there.

My guess with the Half Elven is that Middle Earth is very big and the Lore masters can't be everywhere.

I'm guessing most Hidden meaning in Tolkien is rooted in an obscure line of Beowulf rather than Christian symbolism. Although most characters can be traced to figures in World Mythlogy.

By the way, does anyone else buy the theory that Elves and Dwarves hate each other because Dwarves are Jewish and Elves are antisemetic? - Kira Sharp

I'm assuming that was meant humorously. Tolkien does not use allegories.

Hey, today is 'Hobbit day'!

No movie board and no "Create New Conversation" button, so I will post a movie nit here and move it when Jared returns.

In the trailer for "Fellowship," the ring on Sauron's hand looks exactly like the ring in Frodo's hand. The fire-letters are not visible, contrary to Isildur's evidence.

For what it's worth, Tolkein once wrote these words to a friend in a letter; "The Lord of the Rings, is of course a fundamentally religious and Christian work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."

Ha! I knew it!

Okay, in reference to earlier conversation, can someone who's not as lazy as I am confirm that Elendil was descended from Elros? I thought that Elros sired the kings of Numenor, and the last king was the evil Ar-Pharazon. Elendil and his people survived *because* they weren't relate to the wicked royal line, right?

Okay, nit-time. I wouldn't have noticed this except the movie got it right. Where do Merry and Pippin learn to swordfight? Now granted, the "evil brood" that they smite at the Pelennor Fields and at the Black Gate are 1) pretty big and 2) unaware of their presence, but they pretty much single-handedly drive back Saruman's "ruffians" the next autumn. Did they get fencing lessons after they became knights of Gondor and the Mark?

Elendil and his people survived *because* they weren't relate to the wicked royal line, right

Not quite, they were of the royal line, but quite distant. They did, however, keep faith with the Valar, even after the days of Ar-Adunakhor.

Elros was the father of Vardamir
Vardamir was the grandfather of Tar-Elendil (I can't remember the intervening one)
Tar-Elendil was the father of Silmarien
From Silmarien came the Lords of Andunie.
Elendil was the last such Lord.

While it's true that Elendil was not closely related to Ar-Pharazon he was a direct descendant of Elros through a "cadet" line. The family tree is in the appendix.

As for Merry and Pippin, they wouldn't have needed that much swordfighting experience. Because of the entish and elvish food they'd had on their adventures, they were nearly as tall as a man (admittedly a very short man, but still) and the "ruffians were not themselves skilled swordsmen, but rather common bullies and the scouring of the shire was just another example of the old cliche that if you stand up to a bully, he will prove to be a coward at heart.

The interesting thing about Silmarien, if I'm not very much mistaken, is that she would have been the queen of Numenor, if the law of succession allowing ruling queens had been made prior to her time, instead of subsequently. If she had been queen, that means Elendil would have been the rightful king in his day, so I guess that reinforces his right to be a king in exile.

Okay, thanks.

Another nit, this one's in the movie too, but at a different part. When the Fellowship is retreating from Caradhras, Frodo is the last to be carried over the snowdrift. Why??? Shouldn't the safety of the Ring-bearer take precedence over that of practically everyone else? (Merry and Pippin especially, who are just "luggage" until Book 3?)

No. That one's accurate. Doesn't he wait with Gandalf? On the other hand, if Gandalf went first -- WITH Frodo then you'd be right.

Consider... Aragorn and Boromir carry their passengers, and leave them while coming back for the next bunch. If they had taken Frodo and one of the other hobbits first, then he'd be sitting there all alone, with no protection (except maybe for Legolas). I'm at work, so I don't have my copy handy, but I think the way it worked out, Frodo with with Gandalf the whole time for protection.

Going Wayyyyy back, Mark Wells refers to a government-in-exile

In addition, I don't think a government in exile counts for purposes of calculating the lifetime of a dynasty, particularly when they never returned from exile. The government of Numenor was effectively overthrown, by Ar-Pharazon's coup (he was in the royal family, but he wasn't legally supposed to become king) and then by Sauron's manipulation.

True, Ar-Pharazon was not supposed to be king, but he did marry Tar-Miriel (Ar-Zimraphel?) who was the legit ruler, so it was more of a "palace coup".

Unless of course, you are referring to Arnor and Gondor, in which case, the "government-in-exile" did not begin until after the Downfall (Akallabeth). And since there's not a snowball's chance in Moria of Numenor rising again, is it really a "government-in-exile", since Elendil *IS* the legit heir of Elros at this point (I'm assuming that all descendants from the "Royal" line died in the Downfall), and there's no "illegitmate" government for him to do the government-in-exile bit from?

Yes, the Numenoreans considered themselves exiles, but I wouldn't consider Arnor/Gondor to be governments-in-exile.

A bit wordy, and a bit confused on my part, but I hope I got my point across.

Nit on Matthew Patterson's very *FIRST* post...

Even I, who's only read the first 150 pages of Fellowship of the Rings,know this

Uh, Matt, it's The Fellowship of the Ring, not Rings.

Gandalf and Gimli go just before Frodo.

If anyone's interested, here's an article from this week's Dallas Observer talking about the languages Tolkien created for Middle Earth: http://dallasobserver.com/issues/2001-12-20/stuff.html/1/index.html

About the kingdoms-in-exile, do we know which structures at the end of the Third Age were built in Numenorean times and which were built once Arnor and Gondor were founded?

Unfinished Tales discusses this.

Essentially, Umbar, Pelargir and Lond Daer are about the only things from Numenorean times.

J.R.R. Tolkien originally called Bilbo Baggins nephew "Bingo Baggins". Why did he change it to Frodo?


Because it didn't have a very good ring.

Oddness: In Book I, Chapter 11 we learn that the five ponies that the hobbits lost in Bree eventually met up with Fatty Lumpkin and were returned to Butterbur. In Book VI, Chapter 7 Butterbur says "I've something that belongs to you" and returns Bill the pony, who had wandered all the way Moria. I realize that Butterbur did reimburse Merry for the other ponies, so he could reasonably claim them as his own, but why didn't he mention them? If he mentioned them earlier, why didn't he remember Bill until later?

The Two Towers, page 134 of my Ballentine paperback: Gandalf has just returned (a nice birthday present for Strider) and says

Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

What the heck??!!!??? Aren't both Sauron and the guy who's speaking here Maia, who have (by any cosmology since Fionwe stopped being the son of Manwe) been around since before the creation of Arda? What can Gandalf safely say is older than Sauron? (Well, Illuvatar, but he is not nameless and probably not gnawing the world.)

Well, Gandalf could have just been being theatrical. Or he was suffering from post-Balrog syndrome.

Another symptom of "Post-Balrog syndrome" is the unconscious desire to root against Villanova in every college basketball game!

In all fairness, I'm sure what Gandalf meant to say is that these nameless things are older in middle earth than Sauron is, that is to say, they were in this part of Creation before he came to it. Of course, this is a pretty funny way to phrase it coming from Gandalf, who, described in those terms, is a child to Elrond and an infant to Galadriel, both of whom lived in middle earth for thousands of years before his foot (in its present form) touched its shores.

Anyway, I will re-post my thread from "The Return of the King" movie board (shudder), and comment on it as it relates to the book. Work with me here.
"Be bloody, bold, and resolute, and laugh to scorn the power of man, for none of woman born shall harm Macbeth." It is very very easy to turn the Witch-King of Angmar into Macbeth, and that awful film falls right into the trap. There is a certain subtle idea in the stories of knighthood and chivalry of Destiny and Personal Touch; many worthy knights try a certain task and fail at it through no fault of their own, only because that task is Reserved for another knight. It is this sense of Eowyn's destiny that Tolkein is trying to capture, not the heavy-handed pseudo-invulnerability we're used to in Macbeth. The Nazgul's laugh, "No living man may hinder me," is a lighthearted hint that Eowyn's goose is cooked, a remark synonomous with, "You've got to be kidding, get out of my way or you will die screaming." Her response, "No living man am I!" is similarly lighthearted-- a joke, laughter in the face of despair. She's not brandishing her femininity as a brand of Doom, she's letting the Witch-King know that's she's desperate enough to tackle him. The Witch-King is not Macbeth, and Lady Eowyn's announcement that she is a woman is not a Trumpet-Call of Heaven deisgnating her as the Chosen Slayer.

Now I want to explore the related statement, "Not by the hand of man shall he fall," which was the warning given to the King of Arnor and to the ill-fated Earnur, and is repeated by Gandalf explaining why he has not ridden out to challenge the Lord of the Nazgul at Pelennor. Again, this statement embodies a sense of Destiny, of discouraging anyone who isn't Sir Gallahad from going after the Holy Grail. There is this great tradition of, "Not by the hand of man, etc." surrounding this menace, and so far all men who have sought to destroy him have paid the price, and Gandalf knows it and doesn't feel like dying again.

The thing is, Tolkein's use of the word "man" is a very very limited one. A "man" in middle earth is universally a human male, for dwarf-males are called "dwarves" and elf-men are called "elves." (Similarly, there are women, dwarf-women, and elf-maids.) Tolkein never calls generic males "men," nor does he call elf-maids "women." And this very specific definition of the word "man" excludes Gandalf, for he's not a human male, but a Maia in wizard form! And don't give me any nonsense about Gandalf looking like one and that being enough, because the defining concept of Men is mortality, and Gandalf is very very clearly immortal!

So, nu? Wizard vs. wraith. What's the problem here? Why are we so suddenly worried that we';re outmatched?

And that's explicitly stated, because Merry helped Eowyn, and it's commented somewhere that "He was not a Man, but a Halfling".

And Pippin, when Gandalf refers to him as "a very valiant man," exclaims "I am no more a man than I am valiant!"

Where are Elladan and Elrohir when the Last Ship sails? You know they survived the battle of the Black Gate because the minstrel addresses them afterwards, but that's the last you ever hear of them, even at their sister's wedding. With all the fuss Elrond kicked up when his daughter decided not to return to the West, you'd think he'd have kept a closer watch on the boys.

Also, a nit from the Appendices. It describes Gandalf as worrying about an attack on Rivendell from the East shortly before the events of "The Hobbit." Specifically, he seems to think that only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills stand between the East and a march on Rivendell, while beyond them lies the Desolation of the Dragon. First of all, Gandalf is getting ahead of himself here. It's still the 2950's and Sauron has not yet returned to Mordor in the East-- he's still at Dol Guldur in the shape of the Necromancer. There is one minor presence in Minas Morgul, but even it hasn't been unmasked as a Nazgul yet. What's in the East for him to be worrying about? Secondly, assuming that Sauron were to come from the East and not from southwestern Mirkwood where he actually is, the Dwarves of the Iron Hills would be the least of his problems, for if he did mow them into the ground and skip through the Dragon's waste, he would then hit the realm of King Thranduil, who-- as we saw in the War of the Ring-- is actually powerful enough to keep him completely at bay.

Personally, I think Gandalf was having a pint too many that night, because he's really working himself up about nothing.

Concerning the Iron Hills, I believe they lie east or The Lonely Mountain, well east of Mirkwood.

I believe in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien he says that Elladan and Elrohir lingered for a while in Middle-Earth before making their choice, but we don't know what they decided.

Kira-

In the War of the Ring, it was not Thranduil's Elves fighting alone, but in alliance with the Dwarves of the Lonely mountain and the Men of Dale. If Smaug still held the mountain, and the Men were still being ravaged by him, then it would have been only the elves to hold off any attack in the area. Gandalf suspected (correctly) that whenever and wherever the attack came, there would would be allies and opportunists attacking on other fronts, and the Northern Mirkwood area was one of the most vulnerable.

**....he's really working himself up about nothing.** Ummm, no. I could give you long explination as to why he's right and you're wrong, instead I'll just ask you a question. Ever hear of anyone loosing a war because they overestimated their enemy?

You're right, of course, Adam, but my point is, Gandalf's narrator used the phrase "nothing but the Dwarves of the Iron Hills," whereas Thranduil was still between the Iron Hills and Rivendell.

And please, do lay on that explanation. I take more kindly to "you're wrong" instead of "I disagree" when lengthy explanations are attached. I'm didn't think I was talking about "overestimating," but "treating an enemy as if he lived where he didn't."

Actually Gandalf was going to kill the Lord of the Nazgul before the Rohirrim arrived and the Lord of the Nazgul ran away to get his pteredactyl and Pippin called Gandalf away.

Before that. Before the gates were broken. As Faramir was retreating from Osgiliath when Gandalf doubled back to the city. Denethor sneers, "Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you... can it be that you have withdrawn because you were overmatched?" and Gandalf replies, "It might be so. But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true..." etc.

Maybe Gandalf didn't assume the word `man' just meant `human male'. It was so simple - too simple for a learned loremaster such as him.

Maybe it's just me, but does Celeborn seem to be a bit lacking in the little grey cells?

I think it's just that Tolkien had trouble fleshing out the more passive member of a relationship, which is why he wisely limited Rosie's and Arwen's , and Lobelia's husband's (I can't even remember his name) appearances.

What about Faramir? He appeared quite a lot.

Lobelia's husband was Otho Sacksville-Baggins. Their son was Lotho "Pimple" Sacksville-Baggins.

But most of Faramir's appearances were before he became involved with Eowyn, when he still had a life of his own.

I'll try to get this right without referencing the books.

OK. It's stated pretty emphatically in more than one place that there were three unions of elf and man, that is, there were three times an elf married a man, which were:

1. Beren and Luthien
2. Tuor and Idril
3. Aragorn and Arwen

So the nit is the Prince of Dol Amroth. When he first shows up in Chapter 1 of Return of the King, Tolkien says something about the elvish strain in his line, and he's not talking about the general elvish strain in all Numenorean blood either. Remember, Legolas says something along the lines of

"Gee wiz, then it's true that not all the people of Nimrodel sailed away across the Sea!"

"Yes," said the Prance of Dol Amroth. "So it is still said in my snobby country."

Not conclusive enough? Unfinished Tales goes so far as to say that a man of Dol Amroth married an elf maiden who was one of Nimrodel's people. So wouldn't that make at least four unions of elf and man? Or are they only counting the important ones? Duke of Earl Grey, July 6, 2001

Sorry, Duke, but Appendix A states:

"There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain"

Nimrodel's people were Avari, not Eldar, according to the very passage in Unfinished Tales that you mention. Sorry, my precious, but your nit falls. In addition, the elvishness of Imrahil's bloodline was mentioned first in Chapter 4 of Book V, not Chapter 1. Next time, maybe you should reference the books first.

And while we're already having fun with Appendix A references, Gimli's family tree has some typos. First of all, it says "Gimli Elf-friend 2879-3141 (F.A. 100)". The year 3141 would actually be F.A. 120. Also, it says "Dwalin 2772-3112" without giving the death date in terms of Fourth Age. In any case, it seems odd that Dwalin would live to the age of 340, given that most of the Dwarves in this family tree who didn't die prematurely lived to an age of only about 250-260 years. Dwalin's death year has to be a typo.

The T.A. date for Gimli's "death" is the correct one. In the Tale of Years (Appendix B), it's noted that in FA 120 the King Elessar finally died, and that Legolas and Gimli are alleged to have passed over the Sea into the West in that year.
(N.B. I'm at work, don't have my copy of RotK here).

Okay, can anybody explain that to me? As the Duke of Earl Grey said, there were three unions of the elves (Eldar) and the men (Edain):

1. Beren and Luthien
2. Tuor and Idril
3. Aragorn and Arwen

So what about Earendil and Elwing the White? Earendil is the son of Tuor and Idril and generally considered a mortal man - that's why the Valar kick up such a fuss when he comes to visit them. Elwing is the daughter of Dior and generally considered an elf (though of course she carries Beren's blood). I mean I could understand it if their union didn't count, seeing as Earendil is not really a mortal man and Elwing is not really an elf, but then, Arwen and Aragorn shouldn't count either. After all, they are both descendants of Beren and Luthien AND Tuor and Idril.

Earendil is Half-elven. The reason the Valar kick up a fuss is either a) because he's part Edain or b) even if he's Idril's son, the Noldor can't come back.

Your nit about Arwen and Aragorn doesn't count. At the end of the First Age, Elrond and Elros had to choose to which race they would belong. Elrond chose to become fully elven, while Elros chose to become fully mortal. So Aragorn is fully human. Arwen is the daughter of (the now fully elven) Elrond and Celebrian (daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn).

The real question is... what about Amroth and Nimrodel?

Well, Elrond might be fully elven, but Arwen is still a descendant of Luthien and, therefore, of Beren and of Earendil. Also, Elrond is still considered to be of the line of Luthien, as Aragorn's retelling of the Lay of Beren and Luthien shows. Similarly, Aragorn is fully human as per Elros' choice but is still a descendant of Luthien.

Elrond might be fully elven, but Arwen is still a descendant of Luthien and, therefore, of Beren and of Earendil

Yes, through Elrond.

Also, Elrond is still considered to be of the line of Luthien

So? Your point being? It's irrelevant. Elrond is fully Elven due to fiat of the Valar.

But your point is that it's not a joining of Men and Elves, but it is, because of Elrond and Elros's choices.

Actually, my point originally was that Earendil and Elwing should ALSO be a joining of elves and men, thus making it four such unions. I just used Arwen and Aragorn as an example.

And what about Dior? He was just as literally half-elven as Earendil, but we never get any clue as to with which kindred his fate lies. Elwing, his daughter, was three-fourths elven, but still considered half-elven and given a choice. I wonder if Dior's spirit showed up at Mandos, and he got to choose Door #1, hanging with the elves, or the "mystery" door, wherever it is men go...

Let's make a deal, Dior!

Nope, there's no problem with Dior. Luthien became mortal when she returned from the halls of Mandos, Ergo, Dior was mortal.

Good point, ScottN.

Duke slinks sullenly away...

You don't have to slink away, Duke! I've been slapped down more times than I can recall.

One thing I always wondered about was why Aragorn would wander around in the wilderness with a broken sword. Even if it was an heirloom. Wouldn't a real weapon be kind of useful?

ScottN: Return of the King. This is a typo that *STILL* exists (I have seen it fromt the '60s Ace paperbacks to the current Ballantines)... Pippin replies "... and as for others, I think you have a madman to deal with, not a lord" ... The highlighted word should be "orders", not "others".

This typo has since been corrected in the one-volume HarperCollins edition (published 1997) that I have.

Mind you, wasn't there a contest where anybody who found a typo in the whole text could win up to five pounds?

And if they leave out Tom Bombadil once more I'll...

A few nits I've been mulling over...

1. In "The Shadow of the Past", Gandalf says that Sauron "believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done." This is inconsistent with Gandalf's later remarks, such as in "The Council of Elrond" where he points out that, "Into [Sauron's] heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it." On the one hand, Sauron previously believed the Ring had been destroyed by the Elves, and on the other he can't fathom that anyone would destroy it.

2. In "The Shadow of the Past" (yet again), Gandalf claims that it was clear to him "from the first" that Bilbo's ring was one of the Great Rings, or the Rings of Power, that is. I don't see why, as Gandalf had not yet witnessed its life-prolonging powers on Bilbo (maybe he guessed so because of the invisibility?). In any case though, if he was sure it was a "Great Ring", wouldn't that make it easy enough to narrow down? Are not the "Rings of Power" only 20 in all; the Nine, the Seven, the Three, and the One? Gandalf should know it's not any of the others but the One.

3. Sauron captured our hapless Gollum not long before the major events of the book, and from him learned of the finding of the One. Sauron then proceeded to release Gollum. His intent in doing so is not made completely clear, just that Gollum was sent on an "errand of mischief". I imagine the only good the Dark Lord would expect to get out of releasing Gollum would be as another way of tracking down the Ring, as he must know Gollum will continue to do nothing but seek it out. Why is it then, in "The Land of Shadow", the orcs know Gollum is around, even having orders from higher up that he's wanted (implying that Sauron knows Gollum is in Mordor), yet Sauron seems unaware as to the Ring's presence in Mordor? What else would bring Gollum back there?

4. Our buddies Elladan and Elrohir (otherwise known as the Doublemint twins) are High Elven Noldor, yet seem to be lacking in certain elvish qualities possessed by Legolas, a mere Sindarin elf at best. As the Captains of the West are marching to the Black Gate, Legolas seems to be the only one capable of spotting the Nazgul high above. So Elrond's boys have weaker sight, is that it? Also, earlier on, before they entered the Paths of the Dead, "there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of men have no terror." Elladan and Elrohir are of the Elves, but apparently their hearts must have been quailing somewhat.

I suppose that Gandalf might have thought that the ring was one of the seven Dwarf rings. They're the only ones that have not been strictly accounted for. Stolen or eaten by dragons is a little vague.

Nope. The Three, The Seven, and The Nine each had a stone. Bilbo's ring couldn't have been one of the Seven.

In addition, all of the Seven were accounted for by T.A. 2845, when Gandalf entered Dol Guldur and met Thrain.

Duke-

On point 4: The "Doublemint Twins" (as you call them), are only 1/2 Noldor. The rest of their heritage includes 1/4 Sindar and 3/16 Human (offset by 1/16 Maya) In addition, there are hints that there may be a small amount of Noldor blood in Legolas. In any case, the difference between Noldor and Sindar is much smaller than the difference between Elf and Human.

So have we completely taken care of every single nit in the novels? Nobody's found anything new in months? Or is the whole Rings discussion on the Movies board instead? Not that I'm criticizing.
Just wondered.
Anyway, I read that Tolkien once said that the most lovely-sounding phrase in the English language is "cellar door". I looked for variants of that phrase in dictionaries of Middle Earth--
Selardor, Celador, etc.-- and it looks like he didn't use it. I wonder why not?

It might be considered humorous, and, come to think of it, I don't remember any real humor in LOTR, or related works. Was there any?

I don't remember any real humor in LOTR, or related works. Was there any?

Off the top of my head. . .

Bilbo's song "The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon".

The explanation of the origin of Golf in The Hobbit.

Thanks. I don't remember them; I'll go look them up.

Last night while reading "The Two Towers" yet again I came upon a nit that I think would make the events of the books not happen at least not in the ways they do. Right after Frodo's poisoning by Shelob and his capture by Orc's Sam recovers The One Ring and uses it to hide from Orc's via the invisibility it provides. In "Return of the King" when Frodo, Sam and Gollum are at the Cracks of Doom Frodo puts on The One Ring and at that point Sauron and the Ring-Wraiths are able to detect Frodo and head right for him. Now the recovery of The One Ring is paramount to Sauron and it appears that "Whenever" the ring is used Sauron and the Wraiths are able to "See" it even from afar. If this is the case why did the hosts of Mordor converge on Cirith Ungol when Sam used the ring, and even if they didn't the whole reason that Sauron attacked Minas Tirith was to destroy the realm of men before they recovered the ring and/or gained too much power for the return of the king of men was emminent, with The One Ring so close to Saurons grasp the war would have been postponed to capture The One.

Secondly in reference to Gandalfs comment in the chapter "Shadows of the past" Gandalf states that Sauron beliefed that the Elves had destroyed it. If that was true and that they had would Sauron also have not been destroyed or at least weekend even more that he already was for his life force was tied to The One Ring. In additon every member of the wise knows that The One Ring can only be destroyed in the fires of Mt. Doom, yet the rings crafter does not?

Sam didn't claim the Ring. Frodo claimed it as his own, and Sauron heard him. Sam just put it on.

I know that Sam didn't claim the ring, yet it is refered to in many places in both "Fellowship of the Ring" and in "Return of the King" that the Nazgul are connected to The One Ring and always feel it presence, yet when the ring is used they become aware of its presence and location.

I cannot remeber a passage in the books that says that only the one who claimed the ring can use it and if that were so then Sam shouldn't have become invisible. So my original point stands.

Yeah I wondered about that also.
Bilbo used the ring several times, and for extended periods in "the Hobbit" yet the Nazgul were apparently not sent to recover it. For that matter Gollum had apparently been using it liberally for 500 years to ambush and evade the Orcs that lived in the Misty Mountins.
Bilbo used the ring in The Shire to make his escape from the birthday party, yet again Sauron doesn't know where it is. He has to capture Gollum to get that info, and that takes 15 YEARS!

I might have a very loose excuse for the Minus Morgal thing, give this one a try. At the time Sam used it Sauron did notice him, but it wasn't as pressing *at that moment.* IIRC a Nazgul did infact land at Minus Morgal shortly after they escaped, perhapes it had been sent to get the ring?
However at that time things were ramping up. Sauron's army was on its way to attack Minas Tirith. Perhapes he just figured that he could recover the ring after he won the war which had already started? It just wasn't a priority at that moment that justified diverting the valuable resources. Remember at this time Sauron didn't even fathom the idea that anyone would want to destroy the ring. The idea simply never occured to him.
Then when Frodo puts it on *IN* Mount Doom he realises the danger. Keeping in mind at that point the tide of the land war had changed. Aragon (with a Miar like himself that had defeated a Balrog in single combat) had rolled back his attack and were knocking on the Moronnan(sp?) Where as before his plan was only to recover the ring now he suddenly realises he has to *SAVE* it so of course its a priority again!

I didn't say he couldn't use it. I said he escaped Sauron/Nazgul notice because he didn't claim it, and IIRC, there wasn't a Nazgul in the immediate vicinity (they were off at the Pelennor)...

Having reread a part of Unfinished Tales, I am pleased to now be able to refute the post made by myself on July 16, 2002, which itself was in refutation to my post of July 6, 2001.

Since the Silvan elves of Lorien were Nandoran, that makes them Eldar (though Moriquendi), not Avari, so the fact that an ancestor of the Prince of Dol Amroth married an elf maiden of Lorien does constitute a discrepancy with Appendix A, which declares there to be only three union of Eldar and Edain. I love being right the first time!

As for why Sauron detected Frodo at the Cracks of Doom, but not Sam at Cirith Ungol, I thought it had more to do with location than whether or not the one wearing the ring "claimed" it or not. Because Frodo put the ring on in the heart of Mordor, Sauron spotted him. I don't know if this is right, but it agrees with the feeling Sam had when he first crossed over into Mordor and sensed a change in the burden of the ring. He, at least, believed he would be spotted if he used the ring after that.

But Sauron detected Frodo's presence when he put on the ring way over in Bree. Why could he detect it in Bree but not at Cirith Ungol?

That's exactly my point. Also remeber that one of the reasons for Sauron's attack on the world of men and Minas Tirith was due to the fact that he feared that the ring would fall into Aragon's hands or another man and that they would use the ring to defeat Sauron. Hence his attack. Once he learned (or should have) then the tactic to attack Minas Tirith is flawed as recovering the ring would be paramount.

Did Sauron "detect" Frodo's presence in Bree, as in "suddenly become aware of him" when he put the ring on? I don't think so (unless we're talking about the movie, but this is the book board, and all...) Sure, Sauron knew Frodo was there and that he had the Ring, because the Black Riders had tracked him there, and when the Ring slipped onto Frodo's finger in the Prancing Pony, witnesses there were spying for them.

It seems that Sauron is not aware of every instance in which the Ring is used. He did see Frodo in Mount Doom, and he did apparently come close to seeing him on Amon Hen, but those are only two instances, and this can be attributed at least partly to the special properties of those places. The Nazgul saw Frodo on Weathertop, but he was right in front of them. But like Sam at Cirith Ungol, Frodo wore the Ring right after the Amon Hen sequence, and he wore it at Tom Bombadil's house, without Sauron spotting him.

What I now think is the real nit, rather than all the times we think that the Ring should have been detected, is Strider's statement that "the Ring draws them", meaning the Black Riders, because they really don't seem to be all that keen on sensing its presence. All their tracking of the Ring seems to be done in much more traditional ways.

I'm starting to sound like Yoda. At the end of the first paragraph I meant to say, "witnesses were there spying for them."

Rtripp,

...Also remeber that one of the reasons for Sauron's attack on the world of men and Minas Tirith was due to the fact that he feared that the ring would fall into Aragon's hands or another man and that they would use the ring to defeat Sauron. Hence his attack....

Where does it say so? I can't remember the books saying anywhere anything about what Sauron says or thinks, only what he does, since the books are written by Frodo, with the notes made by Bilbo, and by talking to the other people of the fellowship about what occured at other places. Gandalf and the others guess about what Sauron may do and why, but there is no affirmation.

I got the impression he simply attacked Minas Tirith because his army was ready for it, it was his traditional enemy, and next on his list. In the silmarillion and the history of middle earth, its always the same story: the evil - first the overlord, the Sauron - lies in a dark place after being overthrown in the last war, and the good guys think its over and done away with. After some time of gathering strength, the evil slowly starts to build up a following again, but very secretly, and since the exile is in some remote, inaccessible part, the good guys don't notice it. Then, the evil shows himself with a full army by attacking, overrunning and conquering the neighbors. At this point, the good guys wake up to a panic, ally themselves to a desperate attempt, and (at a huge cost of deads in battle) overthrow the Evil, after which time a period of quiet follows...

As for how and why the ring wraiths sense the ring: I think it has to do with distance - the farther away, the weaker the impulse is. Also, if Sauron thought it had been destroyed, he wouldn't have been looking for it during the time gollum and bilbo had it. He probably didn't know how much of his lifeforce was tied to it, since he needed some time after his last defeat to regenerate, anyway. By that time, Gollum was already using the ring, so Sauron got used to the feeling, so to speak. Only after Gollums capture and torture did Sauron learn that the ring wasn't lying at the bottom of the ocean, inaccessible to everybody (as someone on the council of Elrond suggested), but was in use. After that, he sent out the Ring Wraiths to look.

When Bilbo wore the ring on his birthday, the Wraiths were far away, since they didn't know where hobbits or the shire was. When Frodo wore it, they were much closer, so they could feel it.

I guess Tom Bombadil's house is a special realm, which shields those inside - the whole forest is under a certain spell. (Gandalf discusses this during the Council).

No, Aragorn provoked him by using the palantir. He showed Sauron the Sword That Was Broken.

There's dialog to the effect that Sauron is wondering who will appear wielding the ring, and further dialog elsewhere indicating that that uncertainty, along with Aragorn's goading caused him to launch the siege of Minas Tirith early, before he was fully ready.

This sucker is getting a bit huge, so Your Friendly Moderator will be taking down the posting form and put up a second board.