With the next Star Trek movie coming out and all of the focus on this new "greatest enemy since Khan", I'm wondering what constitutes a great scifi enemy. Great enemies seem to come in all forms, so what makes them great?

DARTH VADER (Star Wars): Cold, merciless, villain. Characterized as simply the personification of the dark side. No real character background until the end of TESB and ROTJ.

GUL DUKAT (ST:DS9): Multifaceted villain. You're never sure whose side he's on. At times he seems almost heroic, while other times he is described as "pure evil"

MAGNETO (X-Men): Only wants to help mutants but believes mankind and mutants cannot coexist. His motives are understandable given his history of being opressed by the Nazis.

KHAN NOONIAN SINGH (ST2:TWOK): Perhaps noted as the greatest Star Trek villain of all time. He was pretty much deranged and believed himself to be superior because of his genetic enhancements.

THE JOKER (Batman): Maniacal madman whose motives are chaotic and seems to take great pleasure in the very dark side of humor.

This is just a random sampling of some of the greats. I don't presume to say that these are the greatest, I'm just giving examples.

Anyway, what is it that makes them great? Is it a multifaceted personality like Gul Dukat? If so, then how do you explain Darth Vader, who seems to be the personification of evil?
Is it the fact that they represent a part of the hero? Is it irony? Is it their personality? Is it motives? Is it all of these or none of these? What is it that makes these villains great and how could new villains be created?

TUE

There is no clear-cut method of creating a great villain. But primarily you have to have a great hero. And the villain has to be the antithesis of the hero. Yet at some level, he has to be able to share some commonalities with the hero.

Most of the great Batman villains take some aspect of the hero and takes it to an extreme:

The Joker's insanity.
Catwoman's shifty morals.
The Riddler's crafty brain exercises.
Two'Face's duality.
The Scarecrow's use of fear as a weapon.

Villains always have to pursue their goals with the same zealotry as the hero pursues his. One of the worst things a villain can do is threaten and then not follow through on that threat (this happens a *lot* in recent action movies).


But, again, in order to have a great villain, you must have a great hero first. The one helps to create the other. Darth Maul, for instance, though a great-*looking* villain, isn't a great villain. Why? Partly because he's underused. But mostly because the heroes in the film are weak and underdeveloped.

I was told that there are 7 ways to identify a great villian

1) LOOK WHO JUST WALKED IN
A villain must strike one off as distinctive, suspicious, or different from the other "good" characters. It could be just a question of appearance, intelligence, or behavior, but something has to mark him as the One To Watch.

2)ONE OF US
The corollary to the above is that the Villain can decieve the other "good" characters and convince them they they too are "good." Abuse of other's people's trust is one of the surest ways to confirm Evil intent and provides tension as to when their villainy may be exposed.

3)IT HAS TO BE YOU
What the villain is in terms of their character and thier relationship to other character must be important to plot. If they can just be replaced with "Random Bad Guy" they are probably not as strong of a villain

4)WHY DID THEY JUST DO THAT?
The Villain's motivation must be clear and preferably as well-grounded as possible. A desire for revenge is a good example. The motive must be rooted in the character's psychology.

5)THE SLIPPERY SLOPE
The villain's charater must develop during the action to end up worse than it was before. If the hero is expected to grow and mature during the action, the villain's character should deteriorate.

6)"CUT IS THE BRANCH"
"cut is the branch that might have grown full straight." The best villains give some idea of the admirable qualites--humor, intelligence, loyalty, self-disipline--which have been warped and twisted in the service of evil

7)TRAGIC END
The Villain's ending should be ideally, be more than a simple obliteration of that character. It should rise out of the evil that they have created. The best ending is an ironic one. The villain that exists just so the Hero can prove their worth by destroying them was never a proper villain to begin with.

What makes a great villain?

High on the list I have to say intelligence. The villain would have to be equal to or even superior to the hero in terms of intelligence forcing the hero to utillize all of his/her skills and resourcefulness in a clever way in order to be victorius. A mad serialkiller may be good as a threat that needs to be caught but is as a villain less fascinating because you seldom get the feeling that he won't be caught. Thats another side of the villains intelligence that you get the feeling that he may actually succed with his plans.

The motives for his evil plans also has to be belivable and rooted in his history or in his species values and characteristics. Here Gul Dukat is an excellent example. He really believes his actions is justified and to the good of his people and their values.

The means to his plans also has to believable within the history. So no excessive use of futuristic technology, magic etc. unless it's part of the universe the history takes place in. Thats why the adversarys in Bond movies tend not to be too impressive, but Darth Vader and emperor Palpatine is formidable villains.

Lastly i have to say that the main villain have to sorround himself with competent and efficient helpers. What would Dukat be without Damar, Vader without Moff? (the commander of the first deathstar), president Skroob without Lord Helmet!

I believe you mean DARK Helmet.

Colonel Sandurz calls him lord Helmet just a few moments before the "I can't breathe in this thing"-scene. I guess his full title is lord Dark Helmet.

Teral, I believe you mean "Vader without TARKIN," not "Moff."

Anyhow, Tim Roth's Thade in the new Planet of the Apes was a great villain for two interconnected reasons: makeup and acting very effectively through it.

I think what makes a great villain is that they have some basic reason for WHY they do what they do.They can't simply do something because they WANT to,they have to because there is an underlining reason behind everything.

Also they should not be either too amoral or too immoral, they must possess their own moral views and be consistent within them.

In fact they should have something that would make us in a way as sympathetic toward them as toward the hero.They must have virtues as well as vices, they must be as three dimensional in all ways as the heroes that they oppose.

In other words the villain should only differ to the hero by HOW he goes about his goals,which in many ways might in fact be the same as the hero.

He also must be seen as being as human and vulnerable as the hero,he is in fact the flip side of the hero and there is a very thin line in actuality between hero and villian.

This is why Khan is a good villain and Soran is a bad one.

I have actually found a site detailing the appeal of villainous characters, with special reference to Jareth, of Labyrinth film infamy (you know, the movie with David Bowie and the muppets), but it can be applied in general terms. You can find it here. Oh, and ah, *cough* I also happen to have my own analysis of the film, located here. Yes, I am a shameless self-promoter.

Sounds good to me. I would add, though, at least for me, the appeal of certain villains in films and on television, are the actors who play them. Most of whom I find quite appealing.

I like Meg's rundown on what makes a good villain. I wish some Hollywood directors would read her list! The recent spat of pathetic villains in movies is really sad. As Scott mentioned, they need to be as charismatic and three-dimensional as the hero. What makes them a cool villain is their method of achieving their goals, not their wild makeup or prosthetics. One of my favorite villains of all time is the sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Alan Rickman nearly stole the show from Kevin Kostner. He was hilarious! Bad, but very funny. His villainy wasn't because he wore black. It was because he lost his humanity in his quest for power. A great villain, then, gains that status not because of any external props, but because of the lengths he is willing to go to attain his goals. The hero should never go to these same lengths, or else he becomes nothing more than another villain.

Its interesting to apply Meg and Teral's criteria to demonstrate why Sybok from Star Trek V: The Final Frontier just didn't work as a villian. I can't really blame Lawrence Luckenbill for the problem either - he did a good job with the part. But he didn't have much to work with
Sybok's initial appearance is indeed striking. Luckenbill has a commanding presence, and it shows in Sybok. Plus, the fact that he is a Vulcan (and is ultimately revealed to be Spock's half-brother) attracts notice. However, while he comes across as clever, his intelligence doesn't actually shine through. As pointed out by the Chief, on the movie board and on the "Wil E. Coyote Syndrome" board, Sybok comes up with a convoluted plan to lure a starship to Nimbus III, which only succeeds due to the tactical errors of our heros.
In addition, his motivations aren't well thought out: Sybok wants to help people resolve their inner pain, and lead them on a quest for God. While he's eventually shown to be misguided, he's not actively evil. In fact, he'd much prefer to voluntarily recruit converts that to compel anyone's assistance. At the end of the film, he even realizes that he was wrong, apologizes and tries to attone. These are all good qualities, but not for a villian.
And yes, I know that "god" is supposed to be the real villian. But the entity claiming that title is trotted out late in the film, is given very little motivation, and is ultimately dispatched by a single shot from a Klingon disruptor

A good villan is just a hero not on "our" side. The Romulan Commander in Balance of Terror was a good villan.

Not necessarily, Blue Berry. The Romulan Commander in Balance of Terror, (and for that matter, the German captain in Run Silent, Run Deep), were not villians, but antagonists - different archetype. While a villain is invariably an antagonist, not all antagonists are villians. The type of antagonist that you are referring to can often be a hero who is not on "our" side, or who is working for a goal in opposition to "our" hero's goal. While this antagonist's goal or cause may be wrong, he is often depicted as having good motives, a code of honor, or a standard of professionalism. In contrast, a true villian may fervently believe in his cause, but he (or she) is willing to use any means to achieve that end.

Maquis Lawyer,

I stand corrected. The best villains are antagonists. I put a smiley after that but when I think of the best villains in Star Trek (to limit it) I get things like the Gorn commander, Kor, Dukat. Other ones are either of questionable motivation (Q) or have a "special" talent that only a good actor can keep from going over the top with (Khan). (Even with Khan can be argued as more of an antagonist [in Space Seed much more easily.])

Actually you still have that a little backward. All villains are antagonists, but the best antagonists are not really villains.

The more obviously "villainous" an antagonist is, the more one-dimensional and "cartoony" he is. That is why the best antagonists are not villains at all.

"Heroes on the other side" like the Romulan conmmanders (both Mark Lenard and Joanne Linville), the Gorn, Dukat (before the Dominion war), Moriarty, even less menacing ones like Dathon (from Darmok, TNG), or Chancellor Durkin (from First Contact, TNG --the TV episode), and Admiral Satie (from The Drumhead, TNG) give a more well-rounded feel to the story.

Even non-personal "antagonists" (the weather, isolation, etc) are often better than "villains." (Compare The Enemy, TNG or The Galileo Seven, TOS with Turnabout Intruder, TOS or Skin of Evil, TNG.)

It is interesting that you should say "cartoony," Tom, since my favorite villain was a cartoon character. It is David Xanatos from the show "Gargoyles." The following contains some spoilers for the series. He fits the "look who just walked in" catagory. For one thing, he is one of very few "modern" characters on the show to have a beard. He is also obviously rich, and his intelligence shows from the start. It doesn't hurt that he is voiced by Johnathon Frakes (William Riker from TNG), either. He also fulfills the "one of us" requirement, since for the majority of the premier movie, he convinces our heros, the Gargoyles, that he is their friend and protector. Again, the fact that he is voiced by someone whose voice is associated with a hero works in his favor, the audience WANTS to trust him. His motives for what he does are usually clear, though it can take a few episodes to reveal some parts of his plot. Usually, the motive is power and money, though sometimes his goal is immortality. He has innumerable vices, but he has a few virtues as well. For one thing, he loves the character Fox, once going so far as to ask for his enemy, our hero, Goliath's help to save her life. As for an able assitant, they don't get much better than Owen Burnett.

I'm glad that people on this board like my list, though i must say it is not all mine. I found a little list on another website long ago, i don't even remember where, and i added a few things to it from some other places and people and a few ideas from myself. So it's a conglomeration. But i'm glad that every one likes it

AFI came out with the list of the 50 greatest heroes and villains. I'll post the Villains here since that is our topic.

50)Alonzo Harris from Training Day
49)Auric Goldfinger from Goldfinger
48)Verbal Kint from the Usual suspects
47)Tony Camonte from Scarface
46)Hans Gruber from Die Hard
45)The Joker in Batman
44)Baby Jane Hudson in Whatever happened to Baby Jane
43)Regina Giddens in The Little Foxes
42)Tom Powers in the Public Enemy
41)Joan Crawford in Mommie Dearest
40)Freddy Krueger from A Nightmare on Elm Street
39)Cruella De Vill from 101 Dalmations
38)Caesar Enrico Bandello from Little Caesar
37)Harry Lime from the Third Man
36)Frank Booth in Blue Velvet
35)J. J. Hunsecker from The Sweet Smell of Success
34)Dr. Szell in Marathin Man
33)Count Dracula from Dracula
32)Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker from Bonie and Clyde
31)Mrs. Danvers from Rebecca
30)Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver
29)Reverend Harry Powell in Night of the Hunter
28)Max Cady in Cape Fear
27)Martains in The War of the Worlds
26)Cody Jarrett in White Heat
25)Jack Torrance from The Shining
24)Gordon Gekko in Wall Street
23)Eve Harrington in All about Eve
22)The Terminator from The Terminator
21)Mrs. John Iselin in The Manchurian Candidate
20)Man from Bambi
19)Captain Bligh in Mutiny on the Bounty
18)the Shark from Jaws
17)Annie Wilkes in Misery
16)Noah Cross from Chinatown
15)Amon Goeth from Schindler's List
14)The Alien in Alien
13)Hal 9000 from 2001: A space Odyssey
12)Alex De Large from A Clockwork Orange
11)Michael Corleone from the Godfather
10)The Queen from Snow White
9)Reagan MacNeil from the Exorcist
8)Phyllis Dietrichson from Double Indemnity
7)Alex Forrest from Fatal Attraction
6)Mr. Potter from It's A Wonderful Life
5)Nurse Ratched in One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest
4)The Wicked Witch of the West from the Wizard of Oz
3)Darth Vader from Star Wars
2)Norman Bates from Psycho
1)Hannibal Lecter from The Silence of the Lambs

I havent seen all of the movies that these villains come from but now i definately want to see some of them

Here are a few comments
45)The Joker. This isnt the first time that the Joker had been named on this board. I think we all can agree that he is an excellent villian: Distinctive, Intelligent, and absolutely out of his mind

40)Freddy Krueger. Being a Fan of the Nightmare on Elm Street series i'm happy to say the Freddy made the list. He's evil to a tee, but also very sadistic in his ways (Freddy vs. Jason comes out August 15th, just to let you guys know)

39)Cruella De Vil. She is a villain and distinctive and remembered but i just don't think that she fits this as a Best of the Worst type villain. IF they were picking from Disney villians personally i'd pick Jafar or Frollo over her. Or the Evil Queen but she already on the board. (note Cedric Hardwick, i think that's how you spell his name, was nominated for is portrayal of Claude Frollo in the 1939 version of Hunchback of Notre Dame. He's one of the few nominees that I wanted to win that didn't make it onto the list

36)Frank Booth. Yeah, Daddy wants his bourbon. Daddy want to F***. (inhales gas) With just that first scene you know he's not your average joe, or your average villain.

33)Dracula. Classic Horror, Classic Villain

30) Travis Bickle. Here's my dillema. He did a good deed, but in the wrong way, so is he a villian or is he just some kind of anti-hero?

29)Reverend Harry Powell. This guy was one of the scariest personas i've ever seen in a movie. Just in the way that's he so manipulative and hypocritical. This movie gave me chills and if you haven't seen it go now and get it.

25) Jack Torrance. Heeeeeeeeeeeeeere's Johnny!!!

22)The terminator. An unstoppable entity. He will not reason, he will only hunt until he's found his target. Terrifing in that aspect alone

20)Man. You do not see or hear this villain, but even you hear something that he does. One Shot. I find this an Interesting pick. Man is an obtacle in the movie but not a Main villain; I wouldn't say bambi has a main villain, but what this one character does, creates a scene that still makes me cry.

14)the Alien. I'm happy the alien made it. It looks scary as hell, but for motivation it's just trying to survive, but it's still scary has hell

13)Hal 9000. I think the best thing was the voice. Just so non-human and emotionless. Han when he talks about that it comes down to human error, it competely creeps me out

12) Alex De Large. A man whose prime interests are rape, ultra-violence and beethoven. He's fascinating to watch, and it's even more fascinating that when your watching him, your rooting for him

9) Reagan Macneil. I think they named this one wrong; It wasn't Reagan as the Villain, it was the Devil.

5)Nurse Ratched. She was mean, but she was so sweet while she was doing it.

4) Wicked witch of the West. I don't think this one should be as high as it is. There's nothing truly significant about her, she's just the classic witch. Yes, she is memorable and had cultural impact I just don't think she's that distictive.

3)Darth Vader. Wouldn't be a villains list without him

2)Norman Bates. the Ultimate Mama's boy. I absolutley love this character, seemingly so innocent, but every now and then see a little bit of his dark side, and usually after that see the rest of it.

1) Hannibal Lecter. Let's see how well he fits my list. 1--Look who just walked in--First time you see him in the cell, he's standing straight ahead and unblinking. very distinctive. 1 point for that. 2--one of us--Lecter was able to be a well known psychologist for some time before capture. 1 point. 3--it has to be you--I'm not sure how to rate this one. I think i'll give it to him becasue Clarice's Boss (i cant remember his name) knows that lecter is useful, and more and more through the movie his ties to Clarice and to Buffalo Bill are that more important. 1 point. 4--why did they just do that--I never questioned any of Hannibal's actions. His motivaitons are clear and well-grounded. 1 point. 5--the slippery slope--i don't think I'll give this one jsut on the ground that he doesn't seem to get worse, he stays the same. He escaped and killed all those people, but i think if he had that chance at the beginning of the movie he'd do the exact same thing. Just we as an audience have respect for him at the time he does escape. 0 points. 6--Cut is the Branch--yes, definately, he's intellgient and observant, has excellent taste, except when it come to eating humans. he has so amny good qualities twisted to evil. 1 point. 7--Tragic end--I'm going to null and viod this one, because he didn't have a end at all in the movie. Total 5 out of 6 points. Not bad. But i guess i was hoping for 6 out of 6, or 7 out of 7 for the top villain. But Lecter is still a fine candidate for the job.