Well its not as if Data couldn't be in Starfleet for say 100 years, then spend another 100 in cybernetics or whatever. He is an android you know? Dr. Soong should have relized this!

"Data couldn't choose anything. He joined Starfleet because of the way Soong programmed him. If he had been programmed in a different way, he would have had another career." Peter

It had little to do with programming. It was sheer coincidence that Data joined SF because it was SF officers who activated him. If members of another organization found him, he may have joined them instead.

"Of course, you've also got to realize that you're coming at this from a 21st Century way of thinking..." MarkN

Although this doesn't follow the direction of your statement, the writers are also guilty of this. In "Home Soil" and "Quality of Life" Crusher defines what being alive is and even though Data falls short of this he is still 'considered' alive, and has to prove his sentience on more than one occasion. You'd think by now the definitions of life and sentience would be more discernible since this is not a new concept in ST.

In the US military, when you show up for training you are considered government property. You go where they want you to go and do what they say or get punished. Also, say you have a duty-free weekend (not leave) and decide to play basketball with some friends. If you were to get injured you would be punished for damaging government property, depending on its seriousness.

I'm surprised nobody's made a nit about Data's ultimate storage capacity of 800 quadrillion bits.

That's 800,000,000,000,000,000, or 800 x 10 to the 15th, bits. Divide by 8 to make it into bytes, and that's 100 petabytes. Here in 2007 that's a lot of memory, and no doubt it was simply mind-boggling in 1989, but nothing like the numbers I'd expect from a computational device (er, sentient being) that's considered a marvel in the 24th century! I guess Dr. Soong's a master at data compression...

For the computationally challenged, the scale goes like this:
Bytes->Kilobytes->Megabytes->Gigabytes->Terabytes->Petabytes... etc etc.

My old Apple ][+ had 140kB floppy disks. My Mac IIsi from circa 1991 had 80MB hard disk. Fast forward a while, and my current machine has cumulative storage space of not quite 2 TB. The next unit up there is PB...getting a little close for comfort already!

Of course it's also possible that things will slow down. For example a turn of the 20th century car might go 30 miles per hour. A model T might go closer to 60 MPH. By the 1960s we've got racing cars that can go 200 MPH. But what has happened since? Cars can still go about as fast as those in the 60s.

This is one of Marina Sirtis' favorite episodes.

Im surpised to hear that, since she didn't have much to do in this episode. (Ive heard she is very much into herself).

*ducks and runs for the nearest exit before John explodes*

Im not worried.

This episode irritates me both for itself (Starfleet's condescending, arrogant attitude and assumption that, even if Data IS property, he is theirs, since they didn't build him, furnish materials for him, fund him, etc.- they just found him!) but also for it's failure to have reprecussions later on- the Offspring (Oh, well, his daughter isn't sentient and thus our property, because, uh... well... she wasn't even derilict and open to salvage claims like Data, but, ummm... we want her, so she's ours!) and Nemesis/expanded material from it - "Oh, Data's not entirely trustworthy with emotions (which is ludicrous, as everyone else on the ship is) so if he wants to continue on in Starfleet, he must give up his emotion chip." Do these sound like demands made of a sentient Starfleet officer? Are they going to say "Picard made a poor, emotionalyy-based descision... if he wants to continue on as captain of the Enterprise, he must have a lobotomy to remove the emoitional centers of his brain?" I think not!

Actually, Marina is a very loving person....not "into herself" at all.

I met her...therefore, I should know.

Anyhow, Marina enjoys the plot regarding this episode...that's what she said...specifically.

This episode irritates me both for itself (Starfleet's condescending, arrogant attitude and assumption that, even if Data IS property, he is theirs, since they didn't build him, furnish materials for him, fund him, etc.- they just found him!) but also for it's failure to have reprecussions later on- the Offspring (Oh, well, his daughter isn't sentient and thus our property, because, uh... well... she wasn't even derilict and open to salvage claims like Data, but, ummm... we want her, so she's ours!) and Nemesis/expanded material from it - "Oh, Data's not entirely trustworthy with emotions (which is ludicrous, as everyone else on the ship is) so if he wants to continue on in Starfleet, he must give up his emotion chip." Do these sound like demands made of a sentient Starfleet officer? Are they going to say "Picard made a poor, emotionalyy-based descision... if he wants to continue on as captain of the Enterprise, he must have a lobotomy to remove the emoitional centers of his brain?" I think not!

Really makes one wonder if Starfleet really is that different from the Borg.

John, having met a person one time hardly qualifies one to make accurate observations about their personality. I met Ms. Sirtis myself once, along with a bunch of other celebs, and I wouldn't presume to speak as if I know them well.

Let me say this...

If Marina was "into herself", she wouldn't have put her arm around me in the Convention Photo Op nor allow me to put my arm around her...She would've pushed me away and said, "Don't touch me!" or something like that....like other women do.

That's not necessarily true. All people have personalities that manifest themselves in varied ways according to a number of different factors, like, to name just one example, their mood. She could've been in a gregarious mood that day, and be self-involved on other days, or hell, even the rest of the time. Or, maybe the most of the time, she acts as you describe. Either way, we don't know. Just because we may meet a celebrity and spend a few minutes with them, does not mean we know them.

I agree with that. Perhaps I was being presumptous.

But let me just add this:

Marina has baby-soft skin.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

I remember that moment until the day I die.

I continue to revile this episode- good drama, badly contrived. Why is a test of Data's strength relevant? Are Kliongons and Vulcans property, too? Physical strength is 100% irrelevant to sentience, and I couldn't fathom why the JAG said she 'couldn't agree' with Picard's objection that it was irrelevant, when it was a perfectly logical explanation!

In addition to my complaints a few posts up about Starfleet's lack of rights to claim Data even if he isn't sentient, the JAG glosses over one very important, major point- Data is a Starfleet officer, whatever else he is. He graduated Starfleet Academy and was awarded a rank. Now, I'm no expert in legal matters, but it seems to me that a certain set of rights in conferred on an officer, regardless of the nature of the officer- and one of those rights is to resign. So the fact that Data is a Starfleet officer should bypass the question of his sentience entirely and still give him the right to resign, even if Starfleet 'blundered' in making 'property' into an officer. In fact, Picard begins to make this extremely valid LEGAL point, and Maddox counters it with an ANECDOTE ("What if the Enterprise computer refused an upgrade...?") and the JAG says "Hmmmm... that's a good point!" No it isn't- it has no legal bearing, because the Enterprise computer WAS manufactured by Starfleet and wasn't graduated from the academy or made an officer; the two situations aren't comparable, and legally pretty clear even to a novice like me... yet for some reason, the JAG seems to be very easily swayed by emotional, illogical, anecdotal, false-comparison, tertiary, ancillary, and inapplicable arguments such as this and the strength test which clearly don't have anything to do with anything and which, I'd wager, a real judge would be able to discern pretty readily. IMHO, this makes Phillipa Louvois a very poor JAG, and one that ought to be... can you disbar a judge, or just lawyers? - in any event, removed immediately from her duties until she can learn to analyze the law objectively instead of subjectively from somewhere inside la-la land. (George H Daly made this point pretty well on page 1- I just couldn't resist adding my own rant). :-)

Of course I will *gasp* agree with Peter that the notion of a machine going beyond it's programming and becoming sentient like Data, Moriarty, the EMH, etc. is ludicrous- at best you would have an automotaun running off of 1s and 0s which is programmed to respond as if it were alive (I feel sad...) but only because it has a slightly more advanced version of "IF situation = identified:sad, PRINT <i> 1 time"- and not because it's thinking or feeling anything, just emulating it. However, once you take the sentient machine premise as a part of the Trek universe whether it is realistic or not, this episode becomes very annoying. :-)


Interesting that a poster- KAM, I think- lumped wondering if Data had a soul in with human superstition. Isn't the question of a soul- an essence of the being that makes them more than the sum of their parts- exactly what is at issue here? If that's a superstition to be discarded by enlightened humans in the future, then what differentiates us as 'biological machines' that aren't sentient, merely the accumulated functioning of electrical impulses and random instinctual patterns? Why would that make human being any less Starfleet property? And, as Chris Diehl pointed out, being completely within their rights to order Maddox, Picard, or Riker to submit for dis-assembly? Isn't the whole basis of this case that sentience means being more than just a collection of parts working towards a goal specified by a decision-making complex located in the head? If there is no such thing as a 'soul' or a mind- an individual essence, if you will- then there is no proof that Picard is sentient or that Data isn't- they're both constructs working towards programmed goals, and the whole point of the episode- that sentience means something MORE than that- is moot. I think it's safe to say that the soul is a little more than a superstition. (On an unrelated note, if there were no 'mind' or 'spirit' beyond the physical, would that make Betazoids, etc. merely very advanced electrical-impulse interpreters... and potentially very good electricians? :-) )

"Maddox says that if he is able to duplicate Data it would meen limitless possibilities for human development. So he wouldn't share this invention with the Vulcans, Andorians, Betazeds, Trills etc. even though they are Federation members." - Teral
Even more importantly, it WOULDN'T- after all, what would creating an emotionless android have to do with human development? It's just like Darwin Station researchers in Unnatural Selection claiming that their genetically created children represent the next stage in human evolution... ummm, no they don't- you created them from scratch to be completely different from humans. In both cases, something that doesn't even resemble a human being (except visually) is being heralded as an advance in human potential... that's like giving a squirrel steroids and heralding it as the next step in achieving Full Cat Potential. :-) Unless of course Maddox means as a labor-saving device to allow humans to concentrate on other things... making the microwave, tv remote, and moving sidewalk other great strides in the potential for human development. :-) Experience suggests to me that such 'improvements' tend to just make people lazier (okay, not that I'm complaining... but I don't think that being saved from effort has ever enhanced the development of humanity, just the development of technology.) So either way, Maddox is speaking in pointless buzzwords.

"But look at the people around you. Could you, by an act of will, choose to be one of them? (I'm not talking about physically, of course.) Can you choose to have the characteristics they have, can you choose to lack the characteristics they lack? Could you choose to like the things they like, if those things are currently boring or abhorent to you? Could you choose to delight in committing a crime which every fibre of your current self screams is wrong?" - Sophie
However, those are not decisions affected by free will- they are state-alterations. Saying that you can't alter reality with your mind (such as becoming a different person) does not have any bearing on whether you have Free Will (the ability to make decisions.) So I submit that people's free will is not limited by this argument. :-)

"I agree with Peter that a programmed being can't be sentient. So perhaps Data's behavior is not the result of programming." - Metrion Cascade
Now THERE'S an intriguing thought...! Hmmmmm....

Lastly, as for the issue of Riker prosecuting, I was under the impression from the episode's dialogue that the provision allowing Picard to defend (as ranking officer of the ship to which the matter pertains) also stipulated that the next ranking officer had to prosecute- doesn't the JAG say something to the effect of "That means that you'll have to..." as if the assignment to Riker was based on the assignment of Picard, both based on the same protocol? I.E. If you get the captain, you have to use the first officer, too?

Superstition might have been too harsh a word on my part.

Usually when people speak of souls they seem to have their own definition rather than one standard agreed upon definition & given that, IIRC, Lavois didn't even seem to know if she had a soul, let alone Data, it would seem no standard definition for soul exists by the 24th century, which would seem to mean that whether one has a soul, or not, does not fall under science, but belief.

Fair enough... not that it matters, Louvois seems like she was just as likely to be swayed by arguments of science, belief, law, superstition, or a really snazzy powerpoint presentation when deciding law anyway. ;-)

Two things I didn't like about this episode:

O'Brien playing at the first seen poker game of the series. He was not a senior officer at the time, he was a "little person" who only had a few lines per appearance, and here he is telling Data, a higher-ranking officer, to move to a different position at the table, as if he had the authority to do such a thing. I thought that was quite ridiculous.

Phillipa Louvois. I just plain did not like her, she was arrogant, obnoxious, and pretentious. I did not like the things she said at the trial, i.e. "Data is a toaster." How ludicrous sounding is that?!

And Picard had a relationship with her? Sheesh, I thought he had higher standards in women than that!

Hmmm... the gal from We'll Always Have Paris, Vash, Louvois... his standards don't seem that high to me.

Well, he also had a brief relationship with Nella Daren, the head of Stellar Cartography. I liked her, but it was too bad that they had to part. She requested a transfer only because, as Phil put it in the Guide, "Picard could not bring himself to treat her like any other member of his crew", as well as the glaring fact that "Picard decided to deprive her of any possible future career advancement because she was a *woman*, and he was in love with her". And to Phil, that sure did sound like sexual harassment to him!

Oh well, I've gotten off-topic. I just wanted to say that, along with Anij from Insurrection, Daren was a pretty good match for Picard. The ones you mentioned, Keith, Jenice Manheim, Vash, and the tight-ass shrew from this episode, you're right, they were not quite his equal!

You might be overlooking a certain ginger chief medical officer as well.

As far as the poker game goes, they're off duty having some informal, recreational time together. It seems that at this point they hadn't established O'Brien as a non-comm yet (not that Starfleet has always adhered to strict military protocol anyway) and he's simply spending some off time with them. Given O'Brien's later characterization, it seems perfectly fine for him to address Data as he does.

NIT (IMHO) No Troi. - John Lang, from 2002.

Actually, Troi *is* in one scene, the one where Data unwraps Worf's gift. It's a Klingon work of literature, and Worf says that it is a great example of such. Pulaski disagrees and says that there could be great debate about it. And then Troi has one line: "I wouldn't miss it."

Granted, you have to look and listen fast, but she is there, and she does say that. At least it's better than all the 1st season eps. she was absent from, huh?

You got that right.

Accodring to episode writer Melinda Snodgrass, the second season Blu-Ray set, due out around Christmastime 2012, will feature an extended (by 20 minutes) cut of this episode. More from Trekmovie here.

The theatrical presentation provided a quick glimpse (Picard talking about "legal fictions" and Data likening it to Shakespeare's "First, kill all the lawyers.)

The clip they showed was VHS quality, and mentioned it was from a VHS copy sent to Snodgrass.

I just saw the theatrical presentation of the remastered episode.

According to Snodgrass, due to the dialog-heavy script, they really underestimated how long the episode would run. The rough edit was about 10 minutes too long, but the cast and crew loved the episode so much they snuck a copy to her. The remastered version shown was based on the edits in her copy. The notable extra scene was one with Picard asking Data about himself, which included the above mentioned lines. There were also some minor scenes that were cut, such as Riker asking Troi about Data.

Apparently they didn't realize the episode was so long until they made the rough edit (no effects or music). That's what they gave Snodgrass. That's fortunate for us, since that means they filmed the extra scenes rather than cutting them from the script. And it's fortunate that they've been able to find all the camera negatives.

I'm glad that this episode is getting its due. People badmouth the first two seasons as inferior to seasons 3-6, but I've long-felt that there were nonetheless some good ones therein, and this is possibly my favorite.

It's the same way people badmouth DS9s first couple of seasons but forget about episodes like Duet for example.

After seeing this episode again, I once again wonder about a few things.

I thought it was rather convienent how Picard and Louvois had been a couple however many years before, and now that she is the JAG officer for Starfleet, there is a case brought before her that involves a member of Picard's crew. To make the situation even more controversial, they mention how Louvois was the officer in charge of the Stargazer court-martial, where Picard had to explain why he abandoned the vessel after a then-unknown enemy attacked them and severel members of the crew were killed under his command. Including Jack Crusher! But that wasn't brought up here, thankfully.

It's almost as if the writer intentionally tried to make this entire situation as conflicted and tension-filled as possible by having the woman that Picard had been with in the past be the one who is in charge of the trial and who also oversaw the court-martial of the surviving Stargazer crew several years before. That all just seems, I don't know, a bit *too* convienent for my liking, that's all.

And now we come to Bruce Maddox. I meant for him to be the third thing I didnt like about this episode. What an annoying little snot he was, and incredibly arrogant and totally convinced that his knowledge and abilities were superior to everyone else's. He actually had the audacity to think he had the right to dismantle Data and that he would actually be capable of constructing a whole race of androids just like Data to put on every Starfleet vessel. The truly massive ego on this man knew virtually no bounds, and I am glad that he was humbled and silenced the way he was. Bravo for Picard, the way he fought for Data and his right to be unique and to be allowed to remain alive and functioning. Of course, no one in Starfleet knew at this time what had become of Lore, but still, this was truly a momentous occasion in the history of the Federation.

I also thought the dialogue and mannerisms in this episode were particularly awkward, I had thought we had left that kind of thing behind after Season One ended. Just another thing I noticed.

Also, tell me this Picard quote isn't hilarious in hindsight:

"Starfleet is not an organization where it's principles are ignored when they become inconvienent!"

I actually snickered a little bit when I heard that. At that time during the series when Gene was still in charge, it was actually true. But when the "completely different kind of people" took over, it happened all the time. I think you all know exactly who and what I'm talking about!

As for the writer herself, she went on to pen the script for Season 3's "The High Ground". I still love the line from it that went: "Didnt't you know, Doctor? One dead martyr is worth ten posturing leaders."

True dat!

Andre, something similar happened in Court Martial (TOS). Ariel Shaw had dated Kirk. Of course, what woman in Starfleet hadn't?

I've got a few simple nits, nothing to do with sentience or the Starfleet legal system!

In the blu-ray version, you can now see a few stray chest hairs sticking out of Data's collar in the scene where Maddox barges into Data's quarters. I don't know if these were visible in the old standard-def version. Data, of course, was established as having a completely hairless chest in "Datalore."

Someone already mentioned that on the schematics of Data, the head is too big... the arms are also too long and the legs too short, and the entire thing too thick. I wonder if whoever made the graphic thought that Data grew from a childlike form.

This isn't a nit for just this episode, but Admiral Nakamura continues the tradition of admirals designing their own uniforms. Every time we see admirals, they have a different uniform, some just slightly different from a normal uniform, some quite outrageously ostentatious. Nakamura is somewhere in between.

Speaking of uniforms, Louvois's is slightly abnormal - the neckhole comes to more of a point in the front, and the piping on the shoulders doesn't extend out as far as normal.

A lawyer judges this episode for legal accuracy.

Well, legal for US law in this time period, so... ;-)

Runs just over 25 minutes.

From the episode summary:

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quote:

Never a sore victor, Data agrees to help Maddox in his research, and consoles a guilt-racked Riker in Ten-Forward, while Picard arranges a dinner date with Louvious.

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Get the DVD's/Blue Rays.

Nothing is butchered.