Okay here is another Klingon custom that makes no sense. A Klingon commits a crime and seven generations are disgraced by it, no exceptions. So if the father of Klingon `s greatest warrior commits a crime, the warrior is now disgraced and his land and other holdings are taken away. What idiot thought this up? When Worf originally took discommodation, I thought, `Okay, this is a loophole. By accepting this he admits the possibility that his father may be guilty and that's as far as it goes.' Of course, I was wrong. Apparently, accepting discommodation does diddly squat, because the shame to several generations of family is still there and he gets spat at by other Klingons.
The drawback to this system is that it encourages families to get involved in the same type of crime. If seven generations are damned because one Klingon worked with an enemy, then the children of that Klingon have nothing to lose by working with the same enemy. The only way this system would work is by allowing the family to kill or denounce the traitor and/or perform some great deed for the empire.
(On a side note, this policy must have been enacted after the time of Kahless. If I recall correctly, Worf, in Birthright, Part II, stated that Kahless' brother had betrayed him, but Kahless is revered as a hero, not spat upon as the brother of a traitor. Contrast this with an episode of Deep Space Nine, The Sons of Mogh, when it is revealed that Kurn and his family are disgraced by Worf's actions in the season opener. Does it matter how faithful Kurn was to Gowron or how many Cardassians he killed for the empire? No!)

Riker's serving aboard a Klingon vessel is referred to as "recent," but A Matter of Honor was the 8th show of the 2nd season and this episode is the 17th episode of the 3rd season. Would you consider more than a year to be 'recent?'

I believe that Picard tells Kurn that this dinner party is for his senior staff. If that is what he said, then who is the uniformed man at the end of the table, that we see only once from behind?

When Worf is listing his options about what to do about his father being declared a traitor, why doesn't he mention discommendation?

Why was the Enterprise orbiting the Klingon Homeworld upside down?

Since the Khitomer massacre happened twenty years earlier, why would a Romulan ship still have records about what happened and whom was responsible for the betrayal?

In the NextGen Guide II, Phil asks if Wesley's badge is silver in other episodes, besides Ménage à Troi, well, it is silver in this episode as well.

I wonder if you could use cloning technology to get through seven generations really quickly...

KAM: When Worf originally took discommodation, I thought, `Okay, this is a loophole. By accepting this he admits the possibility that his father may be guilty and that's as far as it goes.'

Luigi Novi: Well, that was your mistake, KAM. No one ever said such a thing. Worf thought up being discommendated as a way to accept punishment without having to die or have his brother die, so that he could bide his time until an appropriate opportunity came around for him to clear his name, which he did when Gowron's accession to the leadership was threatened in Redemption part I. Given that it worked, I wouldn't call it didly squat; I'd say it was a plan that worked (at least until the same problem came up in The Way of the Warrior(DS9).)

KAM: When Worf is listing his options about what to do about his father being declared a traitor, why doesn't he mention discommendation?

Luigi Novi: Because it's not normally an option. The only option is to accept the seven-generation dishonor, or challenge it, and either clear his name if successful, or die if unsuccessful. The discommendation was a special compromise worked out only when Picard and Worf revealed to K'Empec and Duras that they had dirt on them.

Why was the Enterprise orbiting the Klingon Homeworld upside down?

Luigi Novi: There's no such thing as "upside down" in outer space.

Sophie Hawksworth: I wonder if you could use cloning technology to get through seven generations really quickly...

Luigi Novi: Unfortunately, no. As a means of reproduction, cloning is genetically worse than inbreeding.

Only in the 21st century - who knows what the capabilities will be by the 24th century?

Art Vandelay : ***who knows what the capabilities will be by the 24th century? ***

Teral: There is still a problem with "genetic fading". Just ask the Mariposans (Up the Long Ladder).

Just watched this ep again last night - after several years - and was struck by how flat-out satisfying it remains.
If NextGen deserves no other signal honour in the Trek universe, it gets one for the marvelously effective transformation and expansion of the Klingon culture.

That said...I do agree with KAM, 'seven generations' of disgrace for the whole family is a bit much. I'd think after the third or so at least the discommodees would have a legitimate gripe about how honour is being served at the expense of justice...

I'm just watching this ep on the DVD box set, and at about the 24 minute mark of the show Riker and Data are on the bridge, and Data's sitting at one of the aft Science stations. Riker asks Data to find out what the closest Starfleet ship was during the Khitomer attack, twenty years previously. Data replies that it was the USS Intrepid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've got two problems with this:

1. According to "Yesterday's Enterprise" (also 3rd Season, and previous to this ep), the Enterprise-C was the closest ship to the Khitomer outpost, as it was the Starfleet ship that was defending it against the four attacking Romulan warbirds! Although Data would (probably) not have any access to that ship's records (seeing as it would have been completely destroyed), should the history books not show Enterprise-C as being the ship that was in the area?

2. Ignoring the previous nit and accepting the fact that the Enterprise-C was completely destroyed *and* that nobody at all knew its whereabouts (although the Klingons must have - how else could the war in the alternate timeline presented by "Yesterday's Enterprise" have been avoided?), Data tells Riker that the ship closest to Khitomer was the USS Intrepid. Now, seeing as how the Excelsior was the first ship of the Excelsior class, and according to the TNG Technical Manual the USS Galaxy was the first ship of the Galaxy class, should the USS Intrepid not be the first of the Intrepid class of starship? Is USS Voyager not also an Intrepid-class ship? And if "Star Trek: Voyager" is set subsequent to TNG (and is outfitted with slightly more advanced technology that Enterprise-D - think bio-neural gelpaks and the like), how could Intrepid-class ships exist twenty years *previous* to the third season of TNG?

If only Data had told Riker that the closest ship was the USS NeverHeardOfItBefore... ;-)

GRRR! Need I say it? I forcing myself not to say it..but I can't help it....AHHHH! I CAN'T TAKE IT! Worf says, "My heart is of this world"....(See "Hide & Q") It was the fishnet nylons, I tell ya'! That's the only explanation of Worf's behaviour!

. Ignoring the previous nit and accepting the fact that the Enterprise-C was completely destroyed *and* that nobody at all knew its whereabouts (although the Klingons must have - how else could the war in the alternate timeline presented by "Yesterday's Enterprise" have been avoided?), Data tells Riker that the ship closest to Khitomer was the USS Intrepid. Now, seeing as how the Excelsior was the first ship of the Excelsior class, and according to the TNG Technical Manual the USS Galaxy was the first ship of the Galaxy class, should the USS Intrepid not be the first of the Intrepid class of starship? Is USS Voyager not also an Intrepid-class ship? And if "Star Trek: Voyager" is set subsequent to TNG (and is outfitted with slightly more advanced technology that Enterprise-D - think bio-neural gelpaks and the like), how could Intrepid-class ships exist twenty years *previous* to the third season of TNG?

That was a ship called the Intrepid 23 years ago (about 30 years before Voyager). Some time in those 30 years that ship was retired/destroyed and when Starfleet created a new class of ship (Voyager's class) they named the prototype the Intrepid. Look at how many Enterprises we've had.

That takes care of the second nit, Brian, but what about the first? If the Intrepid had been able to detect transmissions between the Khitomer outpost and attacking Romulan vessels, why couldn't they detect the presence of another Federation starship (Enterprise-C)? And we know that Enterprise-C *was* there despite changes in the timeline because of the alternate-Tasha from "Yesterday's Enterprise" being captured by the Romulans and having that half-human-half-Romulan daughter, and the fact that war between the Federation and the Klingons never happened. So why didn't Data's result come up with Enterprise-C as being the closest ship? And although Riker wanted information from that ship's logs, and assuming that the Enterprise-C was totally destroyed (logs included), Data still should have said that the Enterprise-C was the closest ship to the attack, but only the Intrepid's logs survived.

JAL: It was the fishnet nylons, I tell ya'! That's the only explanation of Worf's behaviour!

You do realise that image will stay with me for the rest of my life...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! 8-O Worf in fishnet stockings??? Bad mental image! Bad! Bad!
Does someone have some Mental Floss so I can get that image out of my mind!?!

Neon, IIRC the Intrepid actually landed people on Khitomer (that's how Roshenko found Worf), whereas the Enterprise-C was believed destroyed in space fighting Romulan ships.
From that point of view Data could have decided that the Intrepid was the closest because it had gotten within transporter range.
It's also possible, although seemingly out of character, that Data could have considered the Ent-C, but realized that since it was destroyed Riker wouldn't be interested in it.

KAM-- Ya big silly----I was referring to the warrior-babe.

The ENT-C was not at Kitomer , it was at nerendra (sp?) 3 , two sepearate incidents.

Enterprise-C was destroyed in 2344... the Khitomer attack took place two years later.

I don't find the idea of a family bearing responsibility for one member's misdeeds all that outlandish. In Klingon culture, a family also receives the reflected glory of any member of the family, so taking responsibility when one member does wrong is just the other side of that coin. Also, the idea of a family being responsible for each member's behavior is not unusual in human cultures. People generally love their families and don't want to see them hurt, which makes it a good method for making people conform to rules of acceptable behavior. I do think that the idea of dishonor passing down for seven generations sounds a bit severe. However, it's possible there are deeds so honorable that one's family is glorified by them for seven generations.

There is a nit in this discussion. The Enterprise-C was not at Khitomer. It was destroyed fighting off an attack on the Klingon colony on Narendra III. The nearest Starfleet ship to Khitomer was the Intrepid, and it did not arrive there until after the battle.

K'Mpec (sp?) bears a striking resemblence to Koord in STV. (Must be a relative)

Charles Cooper (K'mpec) was Klingon General Koord in "Star Trek V."

Tony Todd makes his first appearance as Kurn; Todd also played the adult Jake Sisko in the classic DS9 episode "The Visitor," and was the Candyman in that horror film series.

Does this episode cause a nit when taken in conjunction with The Neutral Zone(TNG)?

I don't recall if TNZ says that the Federation hasn't heard from the Romulans in 53 years, or if *nobody's* heard from the Romulans. Since it's fairly well known that the Khitomer attack was by the Romulans, either this episode, or TNZ is off.

Of course, the anti-nit is that the Khitomer attack wasn't against the Feds...

I hate to bring this us again, but what about the Romulan incursion mentioned in Angel One?

Overzealous rookie monitoring the Neutral Zone & misinterpreting the data? A false report of a Borg ship happened in The Best Of Both Worlds.

Don't you mean Descent, in the latter case? The one that turned out to be a bunch of Ferengi on the moon?

The one that turned out to be a bunch of Ferengi on the moon?

There are no Ferengi on the moon! There's only whalers!

Dar be whales on the moon, Cap'n!

We're whalers on the Moon.
We carry a harpoon.
But there ain't no whales,
so we tell tall tales
and sing this whaling tune!

I thought it was BOBW, but it's been so long since I saw it I could have misremembered.

It had Picard saying that the person who filed the report should get out the Ship Recognition Protocols & actually read it, or words to that effect.

A similar thing could have happened at one of the Neutral Zone border posts & someone thought it was a Romulan invasion.

Probably the same guy...

Season 1
"It's the Romulans!"
"No, you doofus, it's the Borg."

Season 6
"It's the Borg!"
"No, you doofus, it's the Ferengi."
"Make up your mind!!"

Picard tells Kurn to set a course for the first city of the "Klingon Imperial Empire."

And when they're done, they can return to the Federal Federation of Planets.

That's where the Klingon Department of Redundancy Department is located.

They store items there such as ATM Machines and PIN Numbers.

And spare livers.

By Teral on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 5:09 pm:
Art Vandelay : ***who knows what the capabilities will be by the 24th century? ***

Teral: There is still a problem with "genetic fading". Just ask the Mariposans (Up the Long Ladder).


Well, genetic fading doesn't seem to have affected the MARIOposans. They seem to be reproducing with no adverse affects, and actually get more complex and sophisticated with each generation...

I'm not sure about Luigi though... he seems to have left the Japanese video game industry and moved onto American movies...