Look closely at the shot of Riker during the briefing where they discuss the use of the deflector dish as a weapon against the borg.
The partially visible window on the far left is missing the background that is seen in the other windows!
Anyone else notice that?
Rikers says he considered Worf and Data for first officer but puts Shelby in the position because he needs them at familiar post.
Data is understandable because he's a Lieutenant Commander and the second officer. But Worf is only a lieutenant and this would mean a jump in two ranks. Are there no other lieutenant commanders on board? Or must it be a bridge officer?
Can somebody confirm if this is the first episode to use the 'two chimes' alert siren we frequently hear on DS9 and Voyager (during the scene when the Borg hit Main Engineering with their slicer beam and Geordi is forced to evacuate)?
In addition to the comment made about 'possible first officers', what about Geordi? He is a lieutenant commander, and has commanded the ship twice (Angel One, The Arsenal of Freedom)
Then again, Troi is a lieutenant commander as well...
So is Crusher, come to think of it. So can only bridge officers be promoted to first officer?
Why does shelby tell DATA how to fire at the borg ship. He is at navagation(is he not) Worf is at tatical.. why didn't she tell worf?
No, Data is at Ops. Probably because he'd be the best at changing the phaser settings quickly. Also, maybe it is the Ops position and not tactical which is responsible for the power going into the phasers.
Crusher is a full commander.
In the two epsiodes you list, Geordi was in command division (red shirt), maybe now he`s an engineer he can`t.
Good point, however Crusher commanded in Descent, and she wears blue, Data has been in command in Gambit, and he wears gold, Worf was first officer in Gambit and he wears gold.
Why, therefore do these officers not wear red, but still take command? (Real answer - because there would be no other members of the main cast available, and no-one wants to watch some unknown take command just because he's in red...)
Perhaps the crew just don't like Geordi (after all, he is one of NextGen's underused elements)
Not as underused as Deanna was!
(BTW, have you ever wondered if the song Deanna by Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds was a homage to our favourite counsellor?)
no-one wants to watch some unknown take command just because he's in red...
Not even everyone's favorite egotistical engineer, Leland T. Lynch? :-)
Phil mentioned that this episode has awesome music. Did you know that composer Ron Jones also did the music for "Duck Tales"? Not the theme though.
I think the matter of first-officership isn't directly related to ranks. Remember, we've seen TREK first officers be not-full-commanders before (Lt Cmdrs in DS9's EMISSARY and VGR's CARETAKER, and even a Lieutenant in THE CAGE/THE MENAGERIE). Geordi probably wasn't considered because he might be a Lieutenant Commander by rank, but he's really an engineer by skill. (Well, or a pilot, but we've got one of those already.)
But another possible nit: Why *doesn't* Picard know that Riker has been offered the MELBOURNE? Isn't he the captain of this ship? Shouldn't he at least be notified if someone's trying to snap up his executive officer?
Ooh, and another nit, speaking of uniform colours:
Isn't Shelby a tactical expert? With possibly some engineering to her job, developing weapons as she does? Shouldn't she wear gold?
Yet she is also a tactical officer and has obviously been in command in recent years. Besides, a lot of guest actresses seem to wear gold or blue in TNG...
Boy, Commander Riker sure is biased against Shelby in this episode. During a conference in engineering, Riker asks the group if there is anything they can do to adapt their current defences. Geordi says he can't think of anything...Welsey says he can't either. Then suddenly, Shelby starts to suggest something and
then Riker tells her its bed time.
I know he'd angry at for wanting his job....but come on. She's just answering a question you asked in the first place. And why is she only sent to bed?
Jones also did the music for "Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers", the computer game "Starfleet Academy", and "Family Guy". He has been nominated for an Emmy this year for Outstanding Music and Lyrics for "Family Guy".
Here's a simple question: if the Enterprise had the capability to beam an away team over to the Borg Cube, why didn't they just beam a couple of photon torpedoes over and then detonate them, inside the Cube?
I realize that, at first, they wanted to rescue Picard, but they should have planned to blow up the Cube if he was irretrievable. I suppose the problem was that the creators weren't interested in writing Stewart out!!!
Not that I'm suggesting that I would prefer that Picard died.
I would prefer it if Picard had died!
That being said the technical manual says you can't beasm over antimatter warheads. Of course that wouldn't stop you from beaming over a good sized H-bomb!
Given that the Enterprise has 20 transporter rooms, plus another 20 shuttles with there own transporters, that gives you the ability to send over 40 H-bombs per transport cycle. If you need 60 H-bombs to destroy the Cube in one shot you set the timers on oll 60 to go off at the same time and beam them over in about 6 minutes total time and wallah, the cube is destroyed! If not totally destroyed it is badly damaged and you leep hitting it until it is destroyed, not giving it time to repair itself.
didn't they beam over antimatter in "Peak Performance"?
Also, Voyager beams photon torpedos in the one where they find Icheb's family.
According to the tech manual you normally can't beam antimatter. In order to cover Peak Performance they say that small amounts can be beamed in a specially modified container. This amount is enough to warp for a split second, but not even close to what you would need to knock out that borg cube.
H-Bombs should work just fine though. Or as phil pointed out why not load photon torpedos (or h-bombs for that matter) into all 20 shuttle craft and send them on un-manned kamikaze runs, like the shuttle that Worf and data used to get Picard.
Voyager beamed a photon torpedo unto a borg cube in "Dark Frontier," I believe. Hand it to Harry Kim, to break the laws of trek physics.
>Of course that wouldn't stop you from beaming over a good sized H-bomb!
Of course then we woulda had no show.
Well after Picard shoots the borg with holodeck bullets and Worf uses a knife and the borg sheilds don't pop up why not replicate some AK-47s and some Katana Swords for when the borg try to board the ship.
An interesting onservation...
Voyager is often mocked and attacked for its sloppy writing, particularly for its use of the lame, lazy "some kind of...," as though Voyager was the only show to suffer from this syndrome. yet upon rewatching BOBW (what many fans consider the best TNG ever) this weekend, I noted 3 "some kind of..." in the first part alone!!! I stopped counting after that.
Mikey
Note from the moderator: This post refers to other posts that have since been deleted
Sorry about that Mikey, but not everyone around here has been to the proper finishing schools. Mine was Hard Knocks U. Just ignore it and go on unless they get too rough. You waste too much time trying to pound sense into potatos.
Welcome aboard, Mikey!
Phil, from his NextGen Guide; PO#3: When the Borg head for the center of the Federation, they fly towards Earth. Supposedly, this is supposed to evoke an emotional response in the viewer, but why is it assumed that Earth had some foundational role in the Federation, instead of simply joining it when it came of age?
Sorry, Phil, it is YOU who assume that Earth did not have a foundational role in the Federation, and joined it when it came of age. There was absolutely no evidence at the time of this episode that indicated whether Earth was a charter member or joined later on. Lets put aside the possibility that ST First Contact and reports of the upcoming Enterprise series may imply that Earth and Vulcan were the two (or two of the) charter members. Since there is no indication that Earth joined when it "came of age," then doesn’t the implication to the contrary in this episode count as a clue to the alternative, that it did have a foundational role? Who are you or I to tell the creators which it is? In fact, Riker says in the beginning of Act 5 of part II that their pursuit of the Borg is leading on a course through the "very core of the Federation." You yourself wrote in the Guide: "When the Borg head for the center of the Federation…" Doesn’t that indicate that the episode made it clear to you what the premise was? You can only raise a nit if prior evidence contradicts this. There isn’t any. I have noticed, quite correctly on your part, that whenever information in one episode contradicts information in another, or otherwise serves to construct a hypothesis indirectly, you always cite the episode with that information. Why didn’t you do so here? (Simple. Because you knew no such information in any episode existed.)
They’re all hoping for Emmys
When Riker and the away team beam down to the ravaged surface of the planet in the teaser, he is taken aback by the desolation, and assumes that O’Brien made a mistake an beamed somewhere other than the colony. This and the subsequent shot of the crater is supposed to show how shocked Riker and the away team are at the destruction of the colony. But why would they be so surprised? Shouldn’t the sensors on the ship have told them that the colony was gone? They did so in Q Who when Worf reported that all the machine elements of the colony in System J-25 were scooped out.
Back to the shooting range for Worf
As in Q Who, Worf can’t pinpoint the source of the Borg ship’s tractor beams and cutting beams when the Borg cube locks onto the Enterprise in Act 5. What the hell is wrong with this guy?
You’ll pardon me if I don’t drink that tea, Captain…
After Riker and Shelby leave the ready room in the beginning of the episode, Picard walks into a corridor towards the captain’s head, and brings out a tray with earl gray tea. What’s wrong with the replicator?
Luigi--
In that episode where Picard and Crusher are captured by the people of the planet Kes-Prit (the one where they are linked together in a somewhat telepathic way by the little devices on the back of their necks), Crusher indicates that the Earth merely joined the Federation when it "came of age"
No she didn't. She was asking a hypothetical question.
Mr. Luxury Yacht: Luigi-- In that episode where Picard and Crusher are captured by the people of the planet Kes-Prit (the one where they are linked together in a somewhat telepathic way by the little devices on the back of their necks), Crusher indicates that the Earth merely joined the Federation when it "came of age"
Luigi Novi: Sorry, Yacht, but she didn't. In the beginning of teaser of the episode in question, Attached(TNG), Picard expressed doubt about "associate membership", since the Kes wanted in, but the Prytt did not, and Picard thought joining as one planet said something important about its people.
Crusher asked Picard what he'd think if one of Earths's old nation states, such as Australia, didn't join the world government in 2150. She didn't mention Earth joining the Federation.
Hmm...I wonder if the Enterprise writers will remember that date.
I'm not holding my breath, Rene.
Has the year in Enterprise is set been stated yet?
Sorry, Phil, it is YOU who assume that Earth did not have a foundational role in the Federation, and joined it when it came of age. There was absolutely no evidence at the time of this episode that indicated whether Earth was a charter member or joined later on.
This was back before Phil decided that info from TOS could be used when nitpicking TNG. Of course nearly all of the movies show that Earth is where Starfleet HQ is located.
And again according to novels, FASA and a lot of fandom it was Earth, Vulcan, Andor and the Tellarites who first formed the UFP. Nothing about Earth coming of age or anything. Previously the Vulcans sorta ran things by being the most advanced race around and had trade agreements and such but really didn't need a federation until the humans came around like puppies sticking their nose into everything.
Brian, I didn't say a thing about TOS, and until you brought it up, I was unaware that TOS provided any such info on this matter. By exclusing any large body of info like TOS, you're not refuting my argument, you're strengthening it. The less info you can use, the more solid my point that there is no information on the matter one way or the other. Remember, in my post, I myself said we could exclude the hints from ST First Contact and promo info for "Enterprise" to make this point. It was Phil who was asserting that he knew which it was.
Ah. I thought Crusher said something along the lines of "would Earth not have been able to join the federation, if Australia hadn't cooperated (and joined the world government"
I could be wrong, and since I don't have the episode on tape, I can't check it.
Brian, I didn't say a thing about TOS, and until you brought it up, I was unaware that TOS provided any such info on this matter. By exclusing any large body of info like TOS, you're not refuting my argument, you're strengthening it.
Luigi, I never said that I was trying to argue with you. I was explaining why Phil did not referance the movies with regard to this nit. What I was saying was that in the movies when ever they go to Starfleet HQ, or the Federation councal (the trial at the end pf ST4) they go to Earth. To me that makes earth the capital of the federation, which to me means that Earth probably had a founding role in it.
Mr. Yacht, you are essentially correct in Dr. Crusher's Australia reference. It was toward the beginning of the seventh-season episode "Attached."
Yes, but she was creating a hypothetical situation to further her argument, I believe.
Also even if Earth had a founding role in the federation it still had to join. Back after World War I US president Wilson worked to create the League of Nations, which was created, but the US congress ruled aginst the US joining it. Similary at some point durring the founding of the federation the founding planets had to sign on the dotted line, so to speak, and say that they agree to become a member of this Federation. If one of Earth's Nation-States said we don't want to join what would they have done? Who knows?
Oops, my mistake, Yacht. Crusher did say what I said she did, but she also did mention the Federation.
She asked Picard, referring to KesPrytt III, what if one of the old nation states, such as Australia, decided not to join the world government in 2150, asking him if that would've disqualified Earth for Federation membership.
Picard began to respond that that analogy is not exactly...(and then he was cut off by a page telling him they're ready for transport to the planet.) Picard was obviously going to say that the analogy was not apt. This could be because there are/were/will be a couple of hundred nation states on Earth, wheres the Kes are nearly three quarters of KesPrytt III, and the Prytt the rest. Also, if Earth was a charter member, then that could be another reason why Picard was chiding Beverly for making an unreasonable hypothesis. It would be an inapplicable hypothesis if asking if one of the members who helped create the organization could not join, since that member would obviously have helped engineer the membership criteria that allowed for such a peculiarity.
Brian, sorry I misinterpreted your point. Either way, his nit is false regardless of whether one chooses to use the TOS movies.
And what exactly is FASA? Is that the "Ships of the Starfleet" thing with the Akiyagi, and everything?
I quite agree with your assessment there, Luigi, and Brian's point about needing to join if even you did found it makes the Crusher's line moot. So, we're back to not really knowing if Earth founded the Federation or not (although unlikely, it is possible that they made Earth the capital of the Federation even though Earth didn't found it; perhaps Earth is situated more in the "center" of the Federation territory, thus making it a better spot for the capital)
And what exactly is FASA? Is that the "Ships of the Starfleet" thing with the Akiyagi, and everything? Luigi
I should probably have left this question for Lolar to answer since I'm not quite as familiar with the game, but here goes. FASA is a publishing house for games. One of their publication lines is(was?) a Role-Playng game (with a Starship battle spin-off) based on the TOS era movies. Because of the need for detailed back-story, since players would not necessarily be Enterprise crewmen, there were several "supplemental rules" packages issued, which gave details of varied and sundry things such as Klingon, Romulan and Vulcan history, interplanetary commerce practices, and StarFleet Academy course curricula. Some people take them to be as deutero-canonical as the other (to use the phrase that defines the board below) "Authoritative Works of Trek." Others prefer to give them no more authority than Fanfic.
Ever since I saw The Balance of Terror I figured that Earth was a founder world and it was founded after the Earth-Romulan wars. In that ep Spock talks about the Earth-Romulan wars (not the Federation-Romulan wars) and when talking about the lack of visual communication he says that "no Human Romulan or allie has ever seen the other". I always figured that the Federation was formed by Earth and the planets that were allies in this war, kind of like the UN with the allies after WWII.
FASA was a RPG publishing company similar to Palladium Books or Wizards of the Coast. They had the liscence to the Star Trek "Universe" back in the 80's to produce a Role Playing Game and a Tabletop Starship Combat simulator. Since you could play personnel from ships other than the flagship Enterprise or in a setting from the TOS to the latest movie. Which at the time was Either Three or Four I forget which. But there were several sourcebooks giving timelines, detailed histories and other information. True many people consider it closer to canon than fanfic because it had the "official" Paramount/Star Trek stamp of approval and stayed reasonably close to the storylines of pre-TNG revisionism that happened during the 90s. Unfortunately FASA lost its liscence back in the 90s and the new version put out recently by Last Unicorn is good and has quite a bit of history and backstory on its own I still have a soft spot for the FASA RPG. (partly because it was one of the first I played and it concentrates more fully on TOS) The LU version of TOS smacks too much of TNG for me. But to each their own.
Phil mentioned that this episode has awesome music.
Totally awesome, dude!
Did you know that composer Ron Jones also did the music for "Duck Tales"? Not the theme though.
Interesting, I liked the music for this series, the theme sounded different, a little annoying but I don't really mind it since it brings back So many memories... 
I remember the first time I saw this episode I was on the verge of cheering when it appeared near the beginning that Riker might leave (and be replaced by Shelby to boot). Indeed, even Picard's line at near the end of Part II ("... from a former first officer of mine") gave me hope that this might happen. Alas, it didn't, even though he was promoted to captain (and then self-demoted(?) back to commander!). As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of Riker
Seriously though, these two episodes do point out the difficulties of having a "superb" first officer in a long running television series like Star Trek - sooner or later, by any reasonable assessment, such a first officer ought to be promoted to captain.
Hmm, anyone know if we might see Shelby again in the tenth movie? That would be kind of neat...
If so, I hope that they reference Peter David's superb(in my opinion)"New Frontier" books, as she is a major character in them.
Shelby heads up a Tactical Division at Starfleet, so why is First Officer on a starship considered a step-up?
Over subspace Admiral Hanson says the closest starship is 6 days away, but didn't he leave on a starship just a day or two earlier?
In Q Who Guinan describes the Borg attack on her homeworld as a swarm. Riker asks why this Borg ship didn't attack and Guinan states, that they don't do that individually. Implying that the Borg don't use just one ship to attack. She further states that they don't do anything piecemeal, when they come, they come in force. So, why do the Borg attack the Federation with just one ship? (Wouldn't it have made an amazing scene if they had shown one lone Galaxy class starship trying to stop a swarm of Borg vessels?)
The Enterprise was supposed to beam Shelby and her team on her command, so why did it take awhile for the actual beam out to occur?
Everytime Picard told Worf to "Fire at will.", I thought, `Wouldn't it be funny if he pulled out his phaser and shot Riker.'
On page 247 Phil wondered why the Borg don't protect the power distribution nodes. Maybe no one ever attacked them before???
On page 246 of the NextGen Guide II, Phil wondered about Picard's Borg name. Since Locutus means `one who speaks,' it was probably chosen for two reasons: One, the meaning of the name is also a designation, not unlike third of five, except that this designation carries with it a specific function; Two, humans like to refer to things by name and Locutus sounds like a name, Two perfectly acceptable reasons which work well together.
As for Picard referring to himself as I, that was probably because the Borg programming had not completely eliminated his individuality. If I recall in part 2, the Borg perform further modifications on him and at the end it is revealed that a part of him is trying to help the Federation.
KAM: Shelby heads up a Tactical Division at Starfleet, so why is First Officer on a starship considered a step-up?
Luigi Novi: Why wouldn't it be? Is it that odd to relish the idea of serving as first officer on the flagship? Perhaps she had starship duty, switched to Earth duty, and now want to switch back. Or pehaps she left her earlier starship assignment for some reason (the ship blew up and still hasn't been replaced or isn't going to be replaced, it's being decommissioned, etc.) and for whatever reason, she decided to take a stint at Starfleet Tactical. Perhaps she got sidetracked or persuaded by someone at Tactical and lured there, realized she liked it there, and only now wants to get back on a ship.
KAM: As for Picard referring to himself as I, that was probably because the Borg programming had not completely eliminated his individuality. If I recall in part 2, the Borg perform further modifications on him and at the end it is revealed that a part of him is trying to help the Federation.
Luigi Novi: Sorry, but I don't buy it. It has nothing to do with "programming" or "modifications." They don't "program" Picard, they simply fit him with neural implants to suppress his identity and connect him to the Collective. When we see Locutus, he's Locutus, not Picard. It is the Borg Collective that is speaking when we hear him talk, not Picard, so he should be using "we's" and "us's". If Locutus was created to speak to others, they're not going to prop him up in front of a viewer until he's fully able to do so. They're not going to have him do so until he is able to do so. Whatever those modifications were afterwards were probably supplementary. Having Locutus begin his task before he was ready to do so doesn't seem very efficient for the Borg. It sounds like the Borg equivalent of shoving someone in front of a podium in their bathrobe and slippers and handing them their speech right there and then for the first time.
To further these thoughts, I have to agree with Luigi on the first one but disagree on the second. As far as promotions are concerned, consider- Admiral at Starfleet Command sounds like a pretty prime post but a certain James T Kirk voluntarily took the reduction in rank so he could be captain. So there is precedent for leaving a desk job for the frontier.
On the other hand, regarding Locutus, I think he was supposed to use "I" rather than we. The Borg knew that they weren't going to conquer the Federation with a disembodied voice alone- Locutus was a way of making the assimilation process easier for humans to understand. The theory behind this (IMHO, as I have no evidence to support this) is that with the assimilation being guided by Locutus there would be less resistance, less destroyed hardware and more drones. Also, the Borg chose Picard for his knowledge. Part of that knowledge is being an individual. Now of course the collective has absorbed enough individuals that they ought to know what it's like by now. However, Locutus had a level of access that your average drone didn't have- not only did was he guided by the collective, he guided them as they tried to assimilate humanity. Because Locutus was the one guiding the whole show, he had the freedom to refer to himself as "I" rather than as we.
In regards to Shelby and the "promotion," it could be that being a first officer on the flagship of the Federation is a step up from heading a Tactical Division on Earth. I'm not really up to speed on military rankings and such (yes I know Starfleet's not supposed to be military, but bear with me here), but isn't a job out in the field worth more than a behind the desk job? Like two people could be lieutenants, but the one out in the field would be considered more advanced than the one working in headquarters.
D.W. March: The theory behind this is that with the assimilation being guided by Locutus there would be less resistance, less destroyed hardware and more drones.
Luigi Novi: Ridiculous. Why would an assmilated human using singular personal pronouns invading you and telling you to surrender be any less likely to meet with resistance than one using plural ones? Someone comes to Earth and tells us to surrender, you know exactly what Earth's response is going to be: "Up yours, douche bag!"
Locutus: "Resistance is futile. We will assimilate you."
Earth: "Screw you, buddy!"
Locutus: "Excuse me, I meant to say, 'I will assimilate you."
Earth: "Oh, well, that's different. We surrender."
Sorry, D.W., but I don't buy it.
D.W. March: Also, the Borg chose Picard for his knowledge. Part of that knowledge is being an individual.
Luigi Novi: No, they chose him for his knowledge of Starfleet technology, and the plans that were being implemented to stop them, which is why the deflector dish weapon didn't work at the beginning of part II. It may also be possible that since the Queen wanted a consort, she wanted to choose someone highly intellectual. The wouldn't choose him for individuality, because the Borg disdain individuality. And, as you said, all the drones were individuals prior to assimilation.
D.W. March: However, Locutus had a level of access that your average drone didn't have- not only did was he guided by the collective, he guided them as they tried to assimilate humanity.
Luigi Novi: Huh? What "level of access"? Access to what? And how did he guide them? There are no individuals in the Collective. The Collective, aside from the Queen, is only one mind. There is no guiding of one drone to another, or vice versa.
The creators simply made a mistake, period. Pardon me if I say that these pseudo-explanations seem like fishing for rationalizations. Sometimes it's possible to explain a nit, but I don't buy any of these. Sorry.
I'll reply to these in reverse order
The level of access I was referring to is the level that Data et cetera used to put the Borg to sleep and blow up their ship. Could that have been done by a common drone? Probably not- see Unimatrix Zero pt. II for more details.
Picard's knowledge- Picard is human and the Borg were trying to assimilate humanity. They don't understand humanity so they assimilated Picard to broaden their knowledge, hence making the assimilation process. Remember, Picard has been thinking about this since he first encountered the Borg- how will the Federation defend itself? What will the reaction from the citizens be? Who will fight the hardest or the longest? What advances at Starfleet might slow the Borg down? Please don't try to tell me that this knowledge is of no use to the Borg!
Also, Picard is well known within the Federation. My theory is that the Borg know this and think that if the citizenry see a familar face to go with that menacing voice, they might encounter less resistance. After all, if Captain Picard has been assimilated, it's kind of hopeless to resist, isn't it?
And the point of your counterarguements is what? That the Borg made a mistake choosing Picard? If they didn't pick him, it wouldn't have been much of a show, would it? Locutus was very necessary, for more reasons than one.
Sorry. "Less resistance"? I don't think so. If I was on Earth, I wouldn't give up simply because "Picard was assimilated."
D.W. March: The level of access I was referring to is the level that Data et cetera used to put the Borg to sleep and blow up their ship. Could that have been done by a common drone? Probably not- see Unimatrix Zero pt. II for more details.
Luigi Novi: What info in Unimatrix Zero part II are you referring to?
D.W. March: Picard's knowledge- Picard is human and the Borg were trying to assimilate humanity. They don't understand humanity so they assimilated Picard to broaden their knowledge, hence making the assimilation process. Remember, Picard has been thinking about this since he first encountered the Borg- how will the Federation defend itself? What will the reaction from the citizens be? Who will fight the hardest or the longest? What advances at Starfleet might slow the Borg down?
Luigi Novi: Okay, now THAT makes sense! It sounded to like you were saying that the Borg wanted to assimilate individuality.
D.W. March: Also, Picard is well known within the Federation.
Luigi Novi: Really? Where has this been established?
And again, I don’t care if the alien invading Earth looks like Bill Clinton or Norman Schwarzkopf or Harrison Ford. If some mechanical zombie with tubes coming in and out of his noggin appears and tells me to surrender, he's going to get the business end of a phaser blast. I don’t care WHO he looks like!
D.W. March: After all, if Captain Picard has been assimilated, it's kind of hopeless to resist, isn't it?
Luigi Novi: Uh, no.
He was assimilated, and the Borg were beaten anyway, weren’t they?
History is replete with battles and wars that were won against staggering odds, or with heavy casualities. King Pyrrhus’ victory over the Romans in 279 BC comes to mind. So does King Leonidas’ victory at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. And the Battle of Trafalgar, during which Lord Nelson lost his life, which Picard himself mentioned in in this very episode!
D.W. March: And the point of your counterarguements is what? That the Borg made a mistake choosing Picard?
Luigi Novi: Uh, no, the point(s) of my counter arguments were in my counterarguments:
-Locutus using the pronoun "I" was a simple mistake by the creators, not a calculated move by them or by the Borg.
-Locutus using the pronoun "I" is not going to cause greater fear in Earth, or lead to less resistance.
-Assimilating Picard for his knowledge makes sense (as I said in this post). The fact that part of that is his individuality is, as the Borg would say, "irrelevant," since they disdain individuality, (but I now understand what you were trying to say).
-I did not understand your use of the phrases "level of access" or "guiding."
Luigi: re Unimatrix Zero Pt. 2: it was implied in that episode that there was a power struggle going on within the Borg cubes and spheres. If the Borg could power a cube down (like Locutus/Picard did) by issuing the Sleep command, I would imagine they would have done it. This is why I think Locutus had greater control than the average drone.
As for Picard being well-known within the Federation, I would point to two things: one, he is the captain of the flagship. That makes him a special person. And I refuse to believe that EVERY Starfleet ship goes through what the Enterprise went through on a weekly basis. With a life as strange as his, how could Picard not be famous?
But for actual evidence of such, all I can point to is "Family," in which the underwater developer guy seemed fairly amazed to be meeting Picard.
Last but not least, the Mintakans worshipped Picard as a God! So he is famous in some areas.
And my point about lessening resistance is this: If the captain of the flagship is assimilated and has become the "leader" of the Borg then resistance would seem to be fairly hopeless wouldn't it? I think it would be like an army invading the US and taking out the president on the first run through. It would at the very least demoralize the population, which would dampen the resistance. War is psychological too and the Borg must know this.
Regarding pronouns, I don't think it was a mistake so much as a way to make it clear to the audience what was going on. If Locutus said "We are Locutus," I would have said "WTF? Who is Locutus? Picard? The Cube? The whole collective?" Saying "I am Locutus" was a way for the Borg to make it known that they had taken Picard's identity away and replaced it with their own. And although each Borg may not be an individual, they definitely have individual designations- how can anyone forget a certain 7 of 9? ;)
D.W. March: As for Picard being well-known within the Federation, I would point to two things: one, he is the captain of the flagship. That makes him a special person. And I refuse to believe that EVERY Starfleet ship goes through what the Enterprise went through on a weekly basis. With a life as strange as his, how could Picard not be famous?
Luigi Novi: Why do you automatically assume the goings on in Starfleet are necessarily common knowledge?
They may.
They may not.
Is every event that takes place in the scientific community or the military (during peacetime or wartime) known to the general public?
D.W. March: But for actual evidence of such, all I can point to is "Family," in which the underwater developer guy seemed fairly amazed to be meeting Picard.
Luigi Novi: What are you talking about? Louis and Picard were old friends. They talked about Louis’ relationships with women they knew, the irony that Louis, head of the Atlantis Project, was such a lousy swimmer, etc. He didn’t "meet" Picard in the episode, nor express amazement at seeing him.
---Even if we allow for the possibility that Picard became famous because of the Borg incident, your point was that seeing his face would have a certain effect on Earth during that incident, before the event supposedly would've made him famous.
D.W. March: Last but not least, the Mintakans worshipped Picard as a God! So he is famous in some areas.
Luigi Novi: So when you talked about the effect of seeing Picard causing less resistance, you were talking about the Mintakans? What does that have to do with less resistance on Earth?
D.W. March: And my point about lessening resistance is this: If the captain of the flagship is assimilated and has become the "leader" of the Borg then resistance would seem to be fairly hopeless wouldn't it?
Luigi Novi: And as I already answered, no, it wouldn’t. Might it have a detrimental effect on morale? Possibly. Can morale have an effect on a military body’s strength? To a certain degree, yes. But the degree to which this holds true is anecdotal, and dependent on many factors in the situtation. To say that this effect is so dramatic and so measurable, that the Borg would kidnap Picard for this reason—as if seeing Picard would cause such a collapse of resistance—is a bit tenuous, in my opinion. The Borg assimilated Picard for his tactical knowledge and because the Queen wanted a consort. The Borg are extremely ignorant and disdainful of such matters as psychology, and would probably refer to such tactics as "irrelevent." Just my opinion.
D.W. March: Regarding pronouns, I don't think it was a mistake so much as a way to make it clear to the audience what was going on.
Luigi Novi: I can understand trying to explain nits (I do so myself when the circumstances make the anti-nit theory plausible), but now you’re alleging that the creators intended this?
This is pure guesswork. The simpler solution tends to be the right one, and unless you've read some behind-the-scenes article on this flub that said it was intentional, the far simpler explanation that they simply goofed. It happens.
D.W. March: If Locutus said "We are Locutus," I would have said "WTF? Who is Locutus? Picard? The Cube? The whole collective?"
Luigi Novi: You should give the audience more credit than that, D.W. I wouldn’t have been so confused, and I don’t think the audience would’ve either. Q Who? already established the Borg’s collective nature and interdependency.
Well, here's my two cents (if anyone cares)...
Luigi-
The one flaw in your arguments is that you're using information generated in later episodes to nitpick this one.
It was not established until "I, Borg" that the Borg always used the pronoun "we." So it can't possibly be a mistake on the creators' fault in *this* episode.
According to this episode, the Borg *can* create an individualized drone who not refers to himself as "I" but has been given a name as opposed to a numeralized designation. According to this episode, the Borg did it in order to fascilitate their introduction into human society.
Though "Dark Frontier" and "Star trek: First Contact" contradict this, perhaps assimilation of individuals is new to the Borg at this point. Neither Q nor Guinan made mention of it in "Q Who?" And Shelby expresses surprise in this episode when it turns out that the Borg are interested in Picard. Furthermore, as we discover in BOBW2, Picard wasn't fully assimilated at this point.
This episode should not be held accountable for contradictions in Borg behavior that arose from information in later episodes.
Mikey: The one flaw in your arguments is that you're using information generated in later episodes to nitpick this one.
Luigi Novi: I don't think this is a flaw. Obviously, when we discuss nits, we go back and forth between the external (behind the scenes) and the internal (the ficitional world of Trek), and on numerous occasions, people have looked at a given nit in terms of Trek as a whole, not just everything produced up until that moment, Mikey.
I don't think there's anything wrong with doing this, and in many cases, the creators decide on certain premises before establishing them explicitly. I don't know for certain if this was the case with the Borg and pronouns during BoBW, but it's possible.
Lastly, I would point out that Phil did this on NUMEROUS occassions, particularly when using data from TNG to point out nits in TOS, mostly because he wrote the TOS Guide after writing the TNG Guide. He pointed out, for example, that Kang stated in Day of the Dove(TOS) that there was no Klingon Devil, when Devil's Due(TNG) featured such a character, but made this note in the TOS Guide. If one were to adhere to a chronological format, and use only data from Trek produced up until each episode or movie, then perhaps Phil should've put this nit in the TNG Guide, not the TOS Guide, and for that matter, written the TOS Guide first. (He later mentioned it again in the TNG Guide vol II.) By not reviewing TOS when writing the TNG Guide, he was ignoring a large amount of info. True, he originally decided only to consider info from TNG as acceptable for nitpicking, and didn't decide to use other shows or approved reference books until after he wrote the TNG Guide (something I wouldn't have done myself), he himself cited the Tech Manual in the TNG Guide a couple of times.
OK, let me clarify...
It's okay to point out the discrepencies between early shows and later shows. It's even fair to call them nits. But it is not fair to hold the writers of an early show accountable for things established in later shows as you have done here.
The writers of BOBW did not make a mistake in having Locutus say "I" rather than "we" because that factoid hadn't been established, yet.
Ah, I think I see what you mean. I referred to this as a "goof" on the part of the creators, and if this premise was indeed not established in Q Who or BoBW, then calling it a mistake on the part of the creators would be inaccurate on my part. I apologize to the creators. Thanks for the clarification, Mikey. BUT--
I would like to know for certain: Are you guys certain that this was not established in Q who or the BoBW two-parter--even indirectly? In other words, If I review these three episodes, I don't necessarily expect to come across a line where one of our guys specifically says, "Hey, they don't use singular pronouns!", as Troi did in I, Borg, but can we surmise that this is the case, by observing the Borg's speech patterns? Is Locutus' use of the pronoun "I" the only time the Borg did so? If so, isn't it possible that the creators DID consider this premise to be a part of their makeup, and DID make a mistake?
Just asking.
Well...even we had heard the Borg say "We" in Q Who or BOBW, I believe Locutus was the first individual Borg we heard speaking. So...it's "I, Borg" writer who screwed up
As Rene pointed out, we never heard an individual Borg speak until BOBW. And that was Locutus. What the creators intended is... well... irrelevant, as the only thing we should consider is what is presented to us on the air.
It was in "I, Borg" where our Starfleet crew suddenly had this insight into Borg psychology. So where did they get this information? My guess is in the same Starfleet data file where data on Borg Scoutships (also unseen until "I, Borg") can be found.
I also distinctly remember one of Voyager's worse Borg episodes where the Queen tortures a drone by disconnecting him from the hive mind. He immediately reverts back to referring to himself as "I." Of course, Voyager has never given a flip for continuity but I personally think that invidual Borg are more "I" than "we." In "I, Borg," Hugh refers to himself as "I" ("Do I have a name?") early in the episode. Now I'm sure Luigi can find just as many counter examples of Borg drones saying "We" rather than "I" but as far as I'm concerned it's no mistake for Locutus to refer to himself in the singular- he was not just a drone.
BTW, there was psychological warfare in BOBW. Examples include the charges the Borg fired into the nebula, the Borg leaving Picard's uniform in a drawer (or maybe they were saving it for a costume party?), Locutus referring to Riker as Number One, et cetera. The Borg seem very familiar with the concept of psychological warfare and they're also very good at it. It's hardly irrelevant.
Actually, Hugh says, "Do we have a name?"
"I, Borg" makes it clear that Hugh doesn't refer to himself in the first person singular until his meeting with "Locutus."
And who said anything about psychological warfare being irrelevant?
I could have sworn at some point Hugh said "I" long before Picard questioned him... (checkes Guide quickly) Okay, well for that one, I was going by my Next Gen Guide Volume 2, page 334, in which Phil points out the same thing I did- Hugh said "Do I have a name?" But I haven't seen the episode for so long that I don't remember what Hugh said.
And it was Luigi who said psychological warfare was irrelevant, in response to my pointing out some psychological reasons why the Borg might kidnap Picard.
What I said is that the Borg would consider such things irrelevent. They are not interested aspects of life that emotional, individual mortals give much thought to, like freedom, self determination, death, etc., as Picard's defiant words to the Collective after his kidnapping but before his assimilation indicated. Every time he mentioned one of these things, the Borg simply responded that such things are "irrelevent." They would no doubt regard psychology in the same way, as the Borg have always used brute force and technological superiority when attacking enemies, not psychological warfare, strategy or any other subtle tactic.
D.W. March: BTW, there was psychological warfare in BOBW. Examples include the charges the Borg fired into the nebula,
Luigi Novi: That was simply the Borg firing randomly at because they couldn't detect the Enterprise, thinking that if they fired enough times, they'd hit it. It need not necessarily be an intentionally psychological tactic on thier part.
D.W. March: the Borg leaving Picard's uniform in a drawer
Luigi Novi: Why automatically assume they intended Riker to find it? They didn't know the Enterprise would send an away team to rescue Picard. The Borg would probably just as soon not have the Enterprise crew invade their ship at all. This is just an interpretation on your part, D.W., and one totally unsupported by any evidence.
Well, why else would they leave his uniform in a drawer? It wasn't like he was going to need it unless like I said, the Borg have costume parties where they dress up like members of the races they've assimilated. The evidence is the fact that the uniform was there at all. After all, if the Borg were only interested in effeciency, they'd pick apart the communicator and toss the uniform in the recycling bin.
And in case you forgot, the Borg knew exactly how the Enterprise crew was going to react when they assimilated Picard!
Just because the Borg say something's irrelevent doesn't necesarily mean it is. It's just a way of ending a pointless debate.
i.e.
Individual: But what about our individuality?
Borg: Irrelevant.
as opposed to
Individual: But what about our individuality?
Borg: You bring up a valid point, however it's been our experience that the group mind compensates for the individual perspective, for instance...
Irrevelent is just the Borg way of saying, "Shut up! Turn around and grab your ankles!"
D.W. March: Well, why else would they leave his uniform in a drawer? It wasn't like he was going to need it...After all, if the Borg were only interested in effeciency, they'd pick apart the communicator and toss the uniform in the recycling bin.
Luigi Novi: Its reasons for being there were external, not internal: The creators wanted the away team to find it. Internally, I don't see an explanation, nor do it find it necessary to look for one, but if you really want one, perhaps the Borg want to examine the communicator and comm badge, as you speculated. This is far more consistent with the Borg's "personality" as a villain. Distant Origin(VOY) established that Starfleet uniforms are replicated, so maybe the Borg wanted to further study Federation replicator technology by examining one of its products. Ditto for the communicator.
D.W. March: The evidence is the fact that the uniform was there at all.
Luigi Novi: No, you're interpreting it as "evidence."
D.W. March: And in case you forgot, the Borg knew exactly how the Enterprise crew was going to react when they assimilated Picard!
Luigi Novi: No, I didn't "forget" it, and I disagree with that theory entirely. I mean, is Picard psychic now? He may know basic tactics, and even Will pretty well, but he doesn't necessarily know every single move he's going to make. Going after Picard was actually tactically unwise, because he was putting several more crewmen at risk to save merely one, one whose rescue would not yield any tactical advantage at that point. (They didn't know he was assimilated, and it wasn't until part II that Riker realized he could use Locutus to get to Collective). The rescue attempt was done out of emotionalism, and in case you forgot, D.W., Picard would never approve such a tactic, as Locutus told the crew when he woke up in sickbay inpart II. If the Borg were using Picard's knowledge to analyze the Riker's tactics, then apparently, Picard thought/would've thought that Riker rescued him in part II just to save his former captain (which is exactly why he tried to do so at the end of part I).
KAM: Just because the Borg say something's irrelevent doesn't necesarily mean it is. It's just a way of ending a pointless debate...Irrevelent is just the Borg way of saying, "Shut up! Turn around and grab your ankles!"
Luigi Novi: This is a theory, nothing more, and not the most likely one.
BTW, I referred to Riker finding the uniform above, when I should've remembered that he remained on the bridge, as per Troi's admonition. It was the away team of Data, Worf, Shelby and Crusher who found it.
This may be completly wrong, but I've always assumed the We/I pronoun difference is a universal translator thing. I think the actual thing is something like: "This unit is identified as" and the UT just simplifies it.
>King Pyrrhus’ victory over the Romans in 279 BC
>comes to mind. So does King Leonidas’ victory at
>the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC.
You may be using victories in a metaphorical sense, but from what I remember all of King Leonidas of Sparta and his entire army was slaughtered at Thermopylae. And Pyrrhus had more troops then the romans, he may have won victories but they were victories that hurt him more than the romans. It's from that where the phrase "Pyrrhic Victory" comes from.
Also I assumed that Earth was the centre of the Federation. I mean, Starfleet HQ, Starfleet Acedemy, the President's Office and I think the Federation Coucil are all based there.
(Information from Star Trek: Enterprise might help here but I refuse to watch that ••••)
Mikey: Actually, Hugh says, "Do we have a name?"
No, he doesn't. He says, "Do I have a name?" When Geordi and Crusher call him Hugh, he says, "We are Hugh."