I know people that said that Dr. Crusher's response time to the injured K'ehlyr(bad spelling)
was too long, that she could have lived if she was emergency transported to sick bay. I responded that in the Next Gen tech manual it says
that transports not using a transporter pad takes
twice as much energy as a normal transport. The people didn't buy it saying sarcastic things like,
"Oh, yea, Worf's wife is dying, but she can't be beamed to sick bay because Picard has to worry about fuel consumption." They felt that the fact that Worf's wife was an important ambassador would
have also insured her transport.

I aplogize if this has been hashed through before, but I saw this ep last night and was wondering if there is ANY logic to Alexander's age?? Doesn't this episode take place 2 years after The Emissary? And isn't THAT where Alexander was conceived? (I'm reasonably sure that in that ep it's established that Worf & Kehylar hadn't had sex yet). So is Alexander only 2 in this ep (give or take a few months)? And only 9, seven years later when he shows up during the Dominion War (in the season 6 opening 6-parter)?

Is the only explanation that Klingons mature faster than humans? And since Alexander is 1/4 human, then do full Klingons mature even faster? Or am I missing something??

In the revised edition of Phil's TNG Nit-picker Guide, he suggested some kind of time dilation, whereby a couple of years passed for K'ehylar while she remained on a planet, while time sped up for Worf while he was aboard the constantly-warp-travelling Enterrprise.
Check out Worf's teeth when he leans forward to tell Duras that the bomb was Romulan in origin; his upper teeth are yellow, and his lower ones are nice and white. Looks like somebody has an unusual brushing technique!

Lots of klingons seem to have good lower teeth and ugle gnarled upper teeth. Must be genetic.

Anyway, I saw this episode last night, and K'Mpec tells Picard that the man who poisened him is cabable of anything, een war with the Federation if he leads the council. Well, who leads the war against the Federation in DS9 seasons 4-5? Gowron....

It would make sense that a species evolved to survive in a hostile aggressive environment (The Klingons) would have a short gestation period and would mature relatively quickly. I assume that in the past Kronos was a harsh place to live, thus explaining the fact why Klingons are so aggressive, but on the other hand why do they have such a suicidal culture if their need for survival was great? Possibly nurture as their civilisation evolved

Len: So is Alexander only 2 in this ep (give or take a few months)?

Luigi Novi: 1.3 years, given the stardates.

Too bad there’s no "three strikes you’re out" law on the Homeworld
Worf tells Picard in Act 2 that Duras must not be appointed Klingon Chancellor because he is a traitor. Picard responds that while Klingon tradition holds a son responsible for the crimes of his father, he will not, and that treason was Duras’ father’s crime, not Duras’, adding that Duras’ crime was laying the blame for that act on Worf’s father. Picard also seems to forget that Duras also commited two counts of attempted murder in Sins of the Father, first on Kurn, and then on Picard.
I remember asking friends to punch my card at work for me when I was running late, but I had no idea this continued into the 24th century!
When K’Ehlyr tries to look up information on the Khitomer massacre in Act 4, the computer tells her that the Enterprise’s last mission to the Klingon Homeworld (in Sins of the Father) was from stardate 43685 to 43689. First of all, the first stardate given in that episode was stardate 43685.2, which marked Picard’s log in the beginning of that episode’s opening teaser, in which he informed the viewer of Kurn coming on board the Enterprise as part of the exchange program. So if the episode began on stardate 43685.2, then the Enterprise’s mission to the Homeworld began sometime after 43685.2, (at least the better part of a day), not 43685, which was before the episode even began.
Amphetamines must be a part of every meal on this ship
Second, as I pointed out under nits for the episode Remember Me, and as I will later for Chain of Command part I, 2.739 stardate units equal one day (in a non-leap year). From 43685 to 43689 is a difference of only 4 stardate units, or 1.46 days. There is no way that the Enterprise set course for the Homeworld, traveled there, conducted its business and left, all within the span of a day and a half.
Please don’t tell Oliver Stone. We don’t need a Klingon "JFK"
Crusher tells Riker in sickbay in the beginning of Act 5 that the bomb that blew up on K’Mpec’s ship at the end of Act 2 was implanted in the forearm of one of Duras’ men. Really? That’s funny. In the shot of the bomb going off at the end of Act 2, it looks like the blast is emanating from the rear of the room, behind some bulkheads, where no one is standing, and the light of the blast is coming from the floor.

A lot of nonthinking went into this episode. Killing K'Ehleyr, creating Alexander, missing the point with Duras, and only having two candidates vying for K'Mpec's position.
I know the series eventually did some good stuff with Alexander and Worf, but at the end of the episode he is just shipped off to Earth, where he could have been forgotten had the writers not decided to make Worf, Daddy Dearest.
They really should have had three contenders, so Duras doesn't look so guilty. Personally, I was disappointed in the writers for believing that the son should be punished for the father's crime. It would have been more interesting if Duras was innocent of K'Mpec and K'Ehleyr's murders, but this is TV and interesting and complex characters confuse the poor addle-brained executives who run it. (Hmmm, that could explain why the crew bad mouths the twentieth century. The Writers Actors, Producers, and Directors are constantly in contact with TV Execs and forget that they are dumber than the majority of people in the world.)

On page 264 of the NextGen Guide II, Phil wondered how the computer knew Worf had beamed over to Duras' ship when he had taken off his communicator. Doesn't the computer keep track of who beams on and off the ship, regardless of their communicators? I suppose it's possible that the computer could have thought he was in two places, ("Lieutenant Worf is both in his quarters and on Duras' ship.") but I think the transporter trace probably canceled out the fact that the communicator was in his room.

I loved the bit that K'Mpec still drinks the poisoned wine because it's already too late to cure him. I guess he figures why waste a good wine? ;-)

K'mpec says, "A Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor." So does this mean that Chang from Star Trek VI has no honor since he fired from a cloaked ship? What about all those Klingons aboard starships who push buttons and blow up other ships? Do they broadcast their pictures to the soon to be destroyed ship?

For a Klingon Ambassador, K'Ehleyr doesn't seem very respectful of Klingon traditions.

So why did Duras use a curved sword instead of a bat'leth in the duel with Worf? (I know, the prop department probably only had the one bat'leth, but I am a Nitpicker, I don't deal in Reality.) Didn't he think Worf was very good with the weapon? I'm not a weapons expert, but it seems to me that one could do more damage with the bat'leth, which has all those sharp projections on it, then could be done with a sword, which must be either thrust or swung. Also the bat'leth serves as its own `shield,' with little or no stress on the user's wrists, whereas using the sword to block something puts extra pressure on one wrist. Frankly, I don't see how Duras thought he could have won in such a battle.

After being chewed out by Picard, the scene cuts to Worf's quarters and he is standing in front of a wall with several weapons. If you look at the lowermost weapons you will see the Ligonian hand weapon that Tasha Yar used in Code of Honor.

Personally, I was disappointed in the writers for believing that the son should be punished for the father's crime.

Duras was not punished for his father's crime, he was punished for his crime, the murder of K'Ehleyr. Also just because they write characters who believe in punishing the son for the crimes of the father, does not mean that they think it is a good idea. Part of writing interesting drama is writing unfair situations and people who have other ways of thinking, not simply good guys are like us bad guys are diferent than we are.

Hmmm, that could explain why the crew bad mouths the twentieth century. The Writers Actors, Producers, and Directors are constantly in contact with TV Execs and forget that they are dumber than the majority of people in the world.

As someone who has worked customer service jobs since I was 17 I can tell you that TV execs are no dumber than most other people.

KAM: K'mpec says, "A Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor." So does this mean that Chang from Star Trek VI has no honor since he fired from a cloaked ship? What about all those Klingons aboard starships who push buttons and blow up other ships? Do they broadcast their pictures to the soon to be destroyed ship?

Luigi Novi: I understood "not shows his face" to mean simply when an enemy does not attack out in the open.

KAM: Didn't he think Worf was very good with the weapon? I'm not a weapons expert, but it seems to me that one could do more damage with the bat'leth, which has all those sharp projections on it, then could be done with a sword, which must be either thrust or swung.

Luigi Novi: It's more a matter of a person's proficiency with a particular weapon rather than the weapon itself.

KAM: Also the bat'leth serves as its own "shield," with little or no stress on the user's wrist

Luigi Novi: Perhaps when holding it in front of you, but I've seen fight scenes where one fighter, about to hit from behind by his opponent's sword, rather than turn around, immediately swung his own sword (or staff?) over his shoulder, laying it across his back, just in time for it to shield his back from the opponent's sword.

KAM: Personally, I was disappointed in the writers for believing that the son should be punished for the father's crime.

Brain Fitzgerald: Duras was not punished for his father's crime, he was punished for his crime, the murder of K'Ehleyr. Also just because they write characters who believe in punishing the son for the crimes of the father, does not mean that they think it is a good idea. Part of writing interesting drama is writing unfair situations and people who have other ways of thinking, not simply good guys are like us bad guys are diferent than we are.

Luigi Novi: Exactly. Given your theory, Keith, are you under the impression that Thomas Harris believes in canabalism? Or that George Lucas advocates blowing up entire planets full of people?

Brian: As someone who has worked customer service jobs since I was 17 I can tell you that TV execs are no dumber than most other people.

Luigi Novi: Ditto. I worked in a movie theater off and on for a few years, and let me tell you, these were the flat-out DUMBEST customers I had ever met in my life.

"Yeah, uh, what movies are you playing here?"

"Look right up at the signs above my head, jerkweed."

"Do you know anything about what this movie's about?"

"No, apparently I don't own a TV either."

"The time schedule in the newspaper was wrong!"

"Brilliant deduction, Sherlock. Too bad you haven't heard of that new invention, the telephone." (Yeah, it's not their fault that they didn't know the papers are always wrong, but I always get the schedule from the movie theater itself, personally. Who the hell uses the paper?)

SEVERAL people when I was at the concession stand: "Do you sell coffee here?"

"No, that's Starbucks. This is a movie theater."

"Which theater is this movie in?"

Try looking at your ticket, you living abortion. The auditorium number is written on it."

"MANY PEOPLE walking up to auditorium as trailers play: "Has the movie started yet?"

"Well, let's see. There are different scenes being cut to back and forth, a narrator doing a voiceover, and actors and scenes that don't look anything like the movie you paid for. What do YOU think, Schmendrick? Never heard of "trailers?"

"Some Indian or Pakistani gentleman: Excuse me, you have no triple-X movies here?" (True story, guys.)

"Sorry. Rudy Giuliani came by and made us get rid of them."

"Excuse me, you have movie, 'Frankenstein's House'?
"You mean 'House of Frankenstein 1999'?"
"Yes!"
"That's a TV show."(Again, true story, guys. Another person asked me once when I was standing in the Loews E-Walk on 42nd st in NYC where "Queer as Folk" was playing, unaware that it was a TV show on Showtime.)

And in case you're thinking that the answer to these questions were obvious to me merely because I worked there, they weren't. I KNEW how to extract candy from the bulk candy dispenser without having it fall all over the floor LONG BEFORE I ever worked at the theater.

Fine, I admit I went overboard attacking TV execs. Now can we stop the pile-on?

As for the punished for the father's crime. Okay, that wasn't worded correctly.
What I was thinking about was that in Sins Of The Father Duras' father was guilty of a crime. While Duras wasn't a nice guy in that episode by trying to pass the blame to someone else, his actions were understandable given the brain dead guilt system of the Klingons.
Here it is revealed (or implied) that Duras IS working with the Romulans. In essence, repeating his father's crime.
(Also the Enterprise crew & the audience were against Duras, because of his previous appearance.)
I just thought it would make the story (& future stories) more interesting if Duras were NOT guilty & the Enterprise would have to deal with a Klingon leader they didn't trust.

Luigi Novi: Ditto. I worked in a movie theater off and on for a few years, and let me tell you, these were the flat-out DUMBEST customers I had ever met in my life.

Right on, I used to work at a movie theater as well and couldn't agree more.

"SEVERAL people when I was at the concession stand: "Do you sell coffee here?"

"No, that's Starbucks. This is a movie theater." "

I've been to a few movie theatres that DID serve coffee, so I would consider that a valid question.

Is the klingon "death roar" a adult-only thing? When Worf roars over K'ehleyr's dead body Alexander runs a few meters and then stops. If he was scared by Worf's outcry he should have continued out the door. This part of the scene felt VERY artificial.


When Data tells Riker that only one species uses a mulecular-based decaying detonator, Riker immediately knows it's the Romulnas. Is this really common knowledge? It seems like an obscure fact that maybe security and intelligence officers would know, but not command officers.

Academy Teacher: Today on "Explosives 101" we will learn about seldomused and obscure detonators and the races that use them. Yes, Mr Riker?
Cadet Riker: Is this really necessary, I mean this is something for the security division.
Teacher: "Just pay attention Mr. Riker, it may some day prove itself useful to you.


During her conversation with Gowron K'ehleyr tells him that she isn't like K'mpec: old and weak. Yet when Duras beats her to death he does so without being injured himself. Thats very poor selfdefence for a klingon.

Can any klingon just waltz up to a murder and claim right of vengance because the murdered was his/her mate, without delivering some sort of proof?

Klingons would probably see demanding proof of such a thing cowardly, since it is basicaly lawyering around to get out of a challenge that someone has made to you. Also you may not have to be someone's mate. When Worf first challenges Duras he is told "You have no rights here" (because of his dishonor). Presumanly a Klingon with his honor intact could challenge someone over a friend or comrad.

Yet when Duras beats her to death he does so without being injured himself.

Ah ha! More proof that Duras did not kill K'ehleyr!

To The Movie Theatre Guy,

Should you be working with people? MANY people use the paper for schedules because who wants to listen to 20 minutes of times and summaries for movies they don't care about just to hear the times for the ONE they do? as for Coffee in a theatre, why would you have a problem with people asking for what they want? Haven't you gone to a dining establishment and asked for pepsi and been told they only serve coke products? Did that make you feel like a moron when you realised you couldn't have what you prefered? Or did you just drink the root beer and shut the hell up about it?

If these things bother you THAT much, perhaps a career in elctronics would be more to your liking?

Davi75: To The Movie Theatre Guy,

Should you be working with people?
Luigi Novi: Yes. The court-ordered psychiatrist said it was okay.

Davi75: MANY people use the paper for schedules because who wants to listen to 20 minutes of times and summaries for movies they don't care about just to hear the times for the ONE they do?
Luigi Novi: The recording lasts about 60-90 seconds. 20 minutes is, to be kind, an exaggeration. Moreover, the theater itself is going to be the most accurate source for its own time schedules.

Davi75: as for Coffee in a theatre, why would you have a problem with people asking for what they want?
Luigi Novi: I have a problem with people asking for something they should know we don't have, and being surprised when I tell them we don't have it. Coffee may be likely in a theater today, and in metropolitan areas like New York City, but in New Jersey in 1994? Uh-uh.

Davi75: Haven't you gone to a dining establishment and asked for pepsi...
Luigi Novi: Vodka, actually. Straight from the bottle. Much better at dulling the pain of dealing with these people.

Davi75: ...and been told they only serve coke products?
Luigi Novi: Restuarants carry soda. Theaters in Northeastern New Jersey did NOT carry coffee in 1994.

Davi75: Did that make you feel like a moron when you realised you couldn't have what you prefered?
Luigi Novi: No. When I go to a restaurant, I ask for "Pepsi or Coke" or for "Sprite, 7-Up, whatever you have" because I know they have one or the other, and not both. And although I do prefer Pepsi, I know Coke is more dominant in the market.

Davi75: Or did you just drink the root beer and shut the hell up about it?
Luigi Novi: Given how gassy something like root beer might make me, I can drink root beer or shut up, but not likely both.

Davi75: If these things bother you THAT much, perhaps a career in elctronics would be more to your liking?
Luigi Novi: If you think that I, Hannah or Brian ever intended working part time in a theater to be a "career", I think you've been drinking a bit too much yourself, Davi.

Davi75, since Luigi has already replied to your post I won't change it but, do not refer to other people at NitCentral as morons. No, not even in the form of a hypothetical question.

You know, Luigi, its funny to realise how many tiny things seem normal, until you learn that someplace elsewhere, its totally different: In Germany, cinemas serve coffee, because selling candy, cokes and coffee is a good income at the outragoues prices. And whats with restaurants: They only have coke or pepsi? Why? Okay, I'm no cola drinker myself, and when people order coke, they don't usually specify the company or brand, but I've seen these vending machines where different brands are offered. Hmm, at least I think so.

The vending machine in one of my old employers just had a large white and red sign that said Cola and had pepsi,rc, and coke products in it.

My theater has the concession area and an adjacent 'cafe' (sells concession, too--a register for each) that sells coffee, cappucino, latte, etc., Italian soda & Italian cream soda (carbonated with water and flavored syrup, with or w/o milk), big muffins, cookies, etc.

So yeah, coffee is a valid question.

I'm with Luigi here.

(I'm at concession)
"Are there any other movies playing here?"
"Sure are. You just have to guess what they are, *and* showtimes."

True story, folks. *sigh*

KAM: K'mpec says, "A Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor." So does this mean that Chang from Star Trek VI has no honor since he fired from a cloaked ship?

Yes, he was a coward. Remember, he did conspire to have Gorkon killed, honorable Klingons do not do such things.

Coffee is certainly present in theaters NOW, but not in 1994, especially in northeastern New Jersey. For the past couple of years, Loews has been building as part of its new theaters (and adding to some pre-existing ones) not only coffee bars, but kitchens in their concession stands that sell chicken fingers, chicken sandwiches, curly fries, popcorn shrimp, pizza and chicken quesadillas. The Loews Lincoln Square in NYC, in fact, now has a mini cafe on the second floor (where the 10 main theaters are located) offering chicken caesar salads, sandwiches, and all sorts of other things.

And Butch, thank you for coming to my defense, but as I perceived it, I don't think Davi was calling me a moron, but asking me if I felt like one in a hypothetical scenario. (Right, Davi?)

Haven't you gone to a dining establishment and asked for pepsi...

I used to get lots of people who would ask for coke, not realizing that we only had pepsi products. Many didn't care which (here in Atlanta coke is used as a generic term for soda/pop or whatever you want to call it) I was always amused by the poeple who millitantly hatyed pepsi and didn't realize that we served pepsi products we had pepsi signs on the drink towers, on my register, on the counter next to my register, on my vest, on the concession banners and price list behind me.

My theater has the concession area and an adjacent 'cafe' (sells concession, too--a register for each) that sells coffee, cappucino, latte, etc., Italian soda & Italian cream soda (carbonated with water and flavored syrup, with or w/o milk), big muffins, cookies, etc.

Hannah, do you work at a regal cinemas? I ask because I worked for them for 3 years (before they fired me, long story) and you sound like you are discribing the Cafe DelMoro the regal installs.

Luigi, you're welcome. Nonetheless, I felt the entire post had an unpleasant tone and I wanted to make it clear I wouldn't tolerate namecalling even hypothetically.
Incidentally, I see we're getting way off topic here. I think maybe this subject should be taken up in "The Kitchen Sink" under its own heading. What say y'all?

Yep, Bri.

The most popular one for this and surrounding counties...*SIGH*

Actually, it has been taken up. There are a couple of threads in Questions, Questions, Questions that cover this exact topic.

NANJAO: Yet another GREAT episode directed by Jonathan Frakes. KUDOS!

So much for Worf's words in "Hide & Q" where he said, "She is from a world now alien to me." Worf takes the "Oath of revenge" and kills Duras with a Bat'leth.

The final scene SHOULD HAVE went like this:

Picard: You killed Duras..why? You said that the Klingon world was alien to you.

Worf: It was those fishnet nylons on that Klingon-babe that Riker conjured up. It fried my brain.

So much for Worf's words in "Hide & Q" where he said, "She is from a world now alien to me."

Thought we agreed that that line wasn't a nit - or at least was explainable.
It's like Data and contractions - you go through every instance where Worf's behaviour contradicts 'Hide and Q' you're going to end up with a long, very repetitive list.

Cute 'deleted scene', though.

OOPS! Nit

Worf takes off his sash and places in on a chair. Then he takes off his badge and tosses it on a table....well....almost...It hits the table and falls to the floor. Jon Frakes musta told Mike Dorn to "Forget it, keep going!"

At this point in Dorn's career? I should think most actors learn to keep going when they start doing plays in High School.

In the conference, K'ehleyr mentions the Tholians. Now THAT would've been an interesting thing to see. I wish the creators followed up on that.

FUNNY THOUGHT: If George Lucas wrote this episode, it would've gone like this....

Worf: I am your father.

Alexander: Nooooooooooooo!

Followed up on what, exactly, John?

PS on "Funny Thought"

Worf: Search your feelings, Alexander...you KNOW it to be true!

Alexander: Noooooo! Nooooo!

I wonder... did the guy who played little Alexander, Jon Steuer, find his role a little too taxing?

(sorry... truly sorry)

I'm surprised that not only had Phil missed this very obvious nit in both his STTNG nitpickers books but no one else has mentioned it here on this thread, either. When Worf places K'ehleyr's body back on the floor you can clearly see her right eye open and close a couple times, but not quite blinking. More like maybe Suzie Plakson's unsure about something, or wants to make sure Dorn doesn't bump her head against the ottoman. I just saw this today on the Season 4 DVD set and noticed that. I didn't notice if her left eye moved, though. I also now have all 7 seasons on DVD and have been slow to watch them so now I'm trying to catch up.

Jon Steuer's role of Alexander isn't listed on imdb.com for some reason. They're usually good about such things.

Well, then do the update there yourself. Imagine, that's something you can tell your grandchildren about in a few decades - "I wrote this entry!"

Well, now I'm afraid that's gonna be impossible, Electron. First of all, I'd have to have children, and I don't, nor do I want any. Therefore, I'll never have grandchildren. Of course, I'm an uncle so I'll still have something to tell my nieces and nephews at least.

Did I hear Riker call suicide bombers "honorable"?

He said the Klingons consider it honorable, so yes, you did hear that.

Klingons have a concept of honor, just not our concept of honor. I'm sure they have a rationale in their code of honor that allows for cloaked ships; people can rationalize any advantage as honorable. Klingons do consider victory to be the greatest honor of all. I can also picture poisoning being tolerated. If you dump a vial of poison into your enemy's drink then announce that you did so, or fight with a poisoned weapon, I would guess that nobody would question it. You've shown your face, not covered it up.

I agree that there should have been more than two candidates in attendance for the Rite of Succession. With just two people, why is arbitration needed? They can just get the batleths and settle the issue. Were Duras and Gowron the only two people in the whole Empire who think they can run it?

Duras is an idiot, since he sealed the records of the Khitomer investigation personally instead of having one of his buddies on the council do it for him so there wasn't a paper trail. Klingons seem like very untrusting and politically oriented people, and Duras had enemies, so why was K'ehleyr the first person to find this? Duras' father was at Khitomer when it was attacked, he sealed the records, the investigation had to do with an accusation of treason. Surely someone other than her could put 2 and 2 together.

Finally, the forensic investigation of the explosion leaves something to be desired. Wouldn't examining the blast pattern and the wounds the victims took be the first thing they did, not figuring out what sort of bomb was used? Maybe forensics is not Crusher's forte, but there must be someone on the ship who knows about it, in case they have to invesigate a crime aboard ship when far from a starbase. Of course, like the question of K'mpec, this plot went nowhere. Nobody investigated the bomber's background; he might have been a Romulan agent sent to discredit Duras. They just assumed the presence of a Romulan detonator proved Duras was responsible for everything. BTW, I think an argument can be made for Gowron having killed K'mpec, mainly because he is a shifty guy, trying to bribe K'ehleyr to get Picard to speed up the ceremonies, and they never really eliminated him as a possibility, just let Worf's very obvious bias against Duras go unquestioned.

Of course when Worf found K'ehleyr about to die the first question he asked was if Gowron did it and she told him it was Duras.

Yeah, but she said nothing about who killed K'mpec, or why one of Duras' guards blew himself up on K'mpec's ship and killed one of Gowron's guards. Not only Worf, but everyone else, seemed to forget about those two crimes, or resolved them off-camera and never gave them another thought.

Here's a question. What did Gowron do before he presented himself for the Rite of Succession? Worf described him as an outsider, by which I guess he means not one of the High Council. So, what did he do to get the reputation that let him become one of the only two candidates for the title of Chancellor?

I heard he was a nuclear (nucular?) engineer turned peanut farmer and one-term governor of a minor state.

Rene: Did I hear Riker call suicide bombers "honorable"?
:: It earned Colin Kelly the Medal of Honor.

Great, now I get to picture Gowron speaking in a Georgia accent and wonder whether, if he had lived and retired from office, he'd build homes for poor Klingons and inspect coups on minor planets.

Could be worse: could be Ross Perot.

Rene: Did I hear Riker call suicide bombers "honorable"?
:: It earned Colin Kelly the Medal of Honor.

Huh? Colin Kelly was killed by figher pilots after his bombardier dropped his bombs, and he didn't get a Medal of Honor.

Riker probably does not think that Klingons planting bombs on themselves is honorable. He was simply explaining to Dr. Crusher why a Klingon would let himself be killed, since she seemed to find it hard to believe, and that reason had to do with their culture. Also, he had a bit of a tone of sarcasm as he said the word "honorable," like he thinks little of it.

Yeah, Chris, that was my impression exactly.

TWS Garrison: Huh? Colin Kelly was killed by figher pilots after his bombardier dropped his bombs, and he didn't get a Medal of Honor.

:: You got me on that one. I had never thought to question the popular story (that Kelly intentionally crashed his crippled B-17 into a Japanese battleship) because I heard it from my father, a contemporary. My credulity was reinforced when Kelly's son was competitively appointed to West Point and reputable media speculated that he could have entered as a matter of right, a privilege reserved to the survivors of MOH winners.

But in the abstract, the point stands: his mythical action (a suicide bombing) would have been honorable. Likewise, if von Stauffenberg had had the cojones to stay with his briefcase bomb, Hitler would have been dead a year sooner.

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori." Horatius
"They FOOLED me, Jerry." Kramer

K'Mpec and Picard talk at length about "mediation." Picard, at least, should know the difference between mediation (which this is not) and arbitration (which this is).

Yet when Duras beats her to death he does so without being injured himself.

Duras probably came up behind her and hit her over the head, incapacitating her before she had time to react. It'd be consistant with Duras' underhanded personality.

April Grace (Hubbell) was a semi-regular on "TNG" for a little while, reappearing in sevearl other episodes as Hubbell (and the pilot of "DS9"). She currently plays Sergeant Toni Williams on "Joan of Arcadia."

Worf performed the Klingon Death Ritual incorrectly on K'Ehleyr.

He was supposed to force her eyes open THEN give the "Death Howl". He only did the "Death Howl" part.

How did the computer know where Worf was after he tossed off his Combadge?

By Keith Alan Morgan on Monday, July 23, 2001 - 04:27 am:
Doesn't the computer keep track of who beams on and off the ship, regardless of their communicators? I suppose it's possible that the computer could have thought he was in two places, ("Lieutenant Worf is both in his quarters and on Duras' ship.") but I think the transporter trace probably canceled out the fact that the communicator was in his room.

Gowron offers K'Ehleyr a seat on the High Council, but then he says in 'Redemption' that women cannot serve on the council.

Here's a question. What did Gowron do before he presented himself for the Rite of Succession? Worf described him as an outsider, by which I guess he means not one of the High Council. So, what did he do to get the reputation that let him become one of the only two candidates for the title of Chancellor?

Perhaps he was the regional governor of a planet or group of planets. You’d figure that with all of the planets in the Klingon Empire their has to be local governments and whoever is at the top of that government would be a pretty important guy, especially if the military were set up like the US civil war (each state having their own Army) and that man being in command of that military.

"But in the abstract, the point stands: his mythical action (a suicide bombing) would have been honorable. Likewise, if von Stauffenberg had had the cojones to stay with his briefcase bomb, Hitler would have been dead a year sooner." -TJFleming

I have to disagree on this- though I don't know the sotry so perhaps I missinterpret?- but from the situation as described, I think there's a major difference between a kamikazee attack during a military engagement and a suicide bombing snek-attack.

Personally, I think it's entirely possible that Gowron poisoned Km'pec so he could ultimately become Leader of the High Council. After all, following the Empire's invasion of Cardassia in 2372, Gowron became increasingly prideful and paranoid, and nearly destroyed the Empire in his quest for glory!

We all saw how Gowron went from being at least a semi-honorable Klingon Chancellor on TNG to how he was in the last two seasons of DS9, committing numerous acts of treachery in order to undermine his politcal opponents. He especially attempted to dishonor Commander Martok, who had welcomed Worf, Jadzia and Alexander into his House after Worf had once again become disgraced in the Empire after he, as a Starfleet Officer, had refused to support Gowron's invasion of Cardassia.

Therefore I believe that, even though Duras was the *obvious* treacherous Klingon (who killed K'Eleyr after she revealed it was his father, not Worf's, who had betrayed their people to the Romulans at Khitomer) it was Gowron who was secretly treacherous and even Worf did not know much about him when he debuted in this very episode. Plus, just like Worf killed Duras for the murder of K'Eleyr, he would also kill Gowron for his dishonorable acts of purposefully sending his troops to die in battle with the Dominion. Which of course, was the Klingon way!

I just wonder if Gowron also ended up collaborating with Romulans the way the Duras family did. Seeing the way he became near the end of DS9, I wouldn't have put it past him. It's a shame really. The two Empires had been mortal enemies since the 23rd Century, and some of the most treacherous amongst them conspired to commit acts of death and destruction, usually towards the Federation. At least all three powers, in a show of solidarity, joined together in 2373 to combat a common enemy. That was reassuring, at least!