When they were chasing the Phoenix, why were they only at Warp 4? Why didn't Macet insist on going Warp 9.5?

Why did the Cardies need the transponder codes of the Phoenix to find it? Cant they just see it? Or did they just want them to disable the shields?

I was surprised that the Phoenix took out the Cardassian warship in one volley even with its shields up.

Not a nit, but the pronunciation of kanar is different here than it is in DS9. The Cardassian says "kay-nar" here but on DS9 they say "ca-nar".

Data says about halfway into the show that they located the Phoenix and will intercept it in 22 minutes. Havent they already located it before that? What have they been doing for the last half-hour?

Isnt going from tactical officer to transporter chief a step down? Or was O'Brien just sick of weapons? And Maxwell called him "the best". Has there been any evidence of this anywhere? (His moves on Empok Nor, perhaps?)

Instead of trying some sort of risky transport maneuver, why didn't they use the transponder codes to lower the shields like the Cardies had just done? And why stop there? Why not just take over the whole tactical system?

If the Federation recently fought a war and signed a peace treaty with the Cardassians, then why haven't we heard of them before this?

At the beginning of the show there is a reference to "The Cardassian Sector." I thought a sector was an area of space 20 light years by 20 light years by 20 light years? Is Cardassian space really that small?

About the Cardassians, Troi says, "They are our allies." No counselor, the Federation merely signed a peace treaty with them. In 1783 the United States and England signed a peace treaty, but they didn't become allies until World War I.

Gul Macet and his two Glinns must belong to a pink-skinned variety of Cardassian. Odd that we've never seen a pink skinned Cardi on DS9.

The Cardassians must have worked overtime to improve their warship capabilities between this episode and the premiere of Deep Space Nine. The Enterprise and the Phoenix make pretty short work of the Cardi warships in this episode. Makes one wonder why the spoonheads were so formidable during the war?

Why does Picard think he would have to tow the Phoenix if he puts Captain Maxwell in the Brig? Doesn't the Phoenix have a first officer? Couldn't Picard send some of his people over to control the ship?

The Phoenix readies it's weapons, but never fires on the cargo ship and we never hear the first officer ask Maxwell what to do.

Miles beams over to the Phoenix and apparently walks through the Bridge to get to Captain Maxwell's Ready Room, but nobody thinks to inform Maxwell that someone has beamed aboard and no one is accompanying Miles as he enters the Captain's Ready room? Just how many people are aboard the Phoenix anyway? (Did they spend so much money on Cardassian make-up that they couldn't afford to hire a couple of extras?)

The inhabitants of the Alpha Quadrant do tend to have problems distinguishing between a peace treaty and an alliance. In "In the pale Moonlight" (a personal all-time favourite) Dax calls the Dominion and the Romulans allies even though they only have an non-aggression pact. A Klingon in some DS9 episode, I can't remember which, seems to think Bajorans (represented by Odo)and Klingons is allies.

Apparently you are allied with everybody as long as you aren't exactly in armed conflict.

Keith Alan Morgan: If the Federation recently fought a war and signed a peace treaty with the Cardassians, then why haven't we heard of them before this?

Luigi Novi: This has always bothered me too. The only thing I can think of is that the war ended perhaps shortly before Encounter at Farpoint, with some type of armistice or standstill. Perhaps it's why they originally built the Galaxy class. It took two, maybe two and a half years for the diplomats to hammer out a mutually accepted treaty, during which there might have been some tensions here and there that could have threatened to end the armistice, until the 3rd season of TNG, which is why the war said to be over a year prior to this episode. True, most people might think the war over when the actual fighting stopped, but if we overlook that point, it could work.

Teral: A Klingon in some DS9 episode, I can't remember which, seems to think Bajorans (represented by Odo)and Klingons is allies.

Luigi Novi: Martok's son Drex in The Way of the Warrior, when Odo told him to stop accosting Morn.

Then by that logic the Korean War is going on still. Since there never was a peace treaty signed. And there are still soldiers on both sides of the DMZ.

I stumbled across this episode again recently, and I couldn't help laughing when Gul Macet first appears. All I could think of was "It's Dukat!" Especially during the scene in which he tells off one of the Glinns for fiddling with the Enterprise computer. Then again, as one of my good Trek-watching friends has said to me, Marc Alaimo has really written the book on Cardassians, as one of the first people to play a Cardassian. (Actually, it might be better to say that he has "co-written" the book on Cardassians - Andrew Robinson's performance as Garak is also exemplary.) Much the same as Armin Shimerman has forever codified the Ferengi with his performances as Quark, Bractor and the Ferengi away-team leader in TNG "The Last Outpost" - I've forgotten the name...

Letek.

-In one scene, Picard talks to Maxwell for a long time. Then Picard says, "Mr. Worf, please report to my ready room." No badge tap! So Worf was listening the whole time?

-It's Dukat!

-We never see the Cardassians wear those funny head-gear things again.

-Does Maxwell's ready room seem a lot bigger than Picard's? Especially considering the Phoenix is half the size of the Enterprise.

In the DS9 guide Phil talks about how Picard rarely showed pause. In this episode, when discussing sending the Cardassians the Phoenix's prefix codes, he does takes a while!

I agree, Mike. I cited Picard's pause when the Duras forces attacked the Klingon ship Worf was on at the end of Redemption part I(TNG) when refuting the same nit, Mike. Phil made it for The Way of the Warrior(DS9).

Phil, from the NextGen Guide, vol. II: Alternate Viewpoints and Corrections #2: Richard Smith pointed out that the Phoenix is a Nebula-class ship, not a "Nebular"-class ship, as I wrote in vol. I. I would point out that Gul Macet himself refers to it as a Nebular-class ship, and all info in the Guides comes from the show (wink, wink).
Sorry, Phil, but if you’re referring to the scene in the beginning of Act 3 right after the Phoenix destroys the Cardassian warship, and Gul Macet tells Picard of the freighter’s weapons, Macet says, "Very limited. Certainly not enough to defeat a Nebula-class starship." The closed captioning said "Nebula." It’s also listed in the Star Trek Encyclopedia as "Nebula-class."
Phil, from the NextGen Guide, vol. II: Equipment Oddities #1: As Picard watches the Phoenix goes after another Cardassian freighter, Picard gives the Phoenix’s prefix codes to the Cardassians to dismantle the Phoenix’s shields. I got the impression from ST II that prefix codes can be used to take control of another vessel. If that’s true, why doesn’t Picard just disable the Phoenix’s phasers and torpedoes?
All Kirk did with the code in ST II was to shut down the Reliant’s shields. Nothing in the movie indicated it could be used for taking control of the entire ship, or anything else. If it could, wouldn’t Kirk have taken control of the Reliant, rather than simply disabled its shields? (Though I admit it would be a good idea.)

Apparently, "delta sequence" means "admire the scenery"
After the Cardassian ship first attacks the Enterprise in the beginning of the episode, Picard orders "evasive action, delta sequence," and orders phasers ready. The Enterprise does fire on the ship, but takes no evasive action at all, even though Data indicated they were when he answered Picard’s order. The Enterprise simply travels forward casually in the same direction in was traveling before, while the Cardassian ship flies around the Enterprise in an circular manner.
Or is the Enterprise just the ship where they send all the ex-soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder on those lovely cruises to discover soothing energy-based lifeforms?
We learn in this episode that the Federation and the Cardassian Union were at war with one another until "about a year" before this episode, according to Picard’s log. So in all the time from Encounter at Farpoint(TNG) to approximately the time of The High Ground(TNG), the Federation has been at war, and Starfleet has had the Enterprise, the most advanced, powerful ship in the fleet, the flagship, mind you, off doing exploratory work? When you’re at war, don’t you place your strongest weapons at the forefront? And why has there been no mention of this war until now? Perhaps the war continued until just before the beginning of the series, and the Enterprise was built for the war, and a cease fire was declared sometime before Encounter at Farpoint, but the treaty wasn’t finalized until a year before this episode, but no dialogue is supplied to support this.
But it would still take years before MTV introduced a gray-skinned roomate on The Real World Vulcan
The Cardassians’ skin tone eventually evolves into a grayish color, but in their first appearance in this episode, they have a more human-Caucasian skin color.
Probably the Cardassian word for "watered down"
In Ten Forward, the Cardassian and O’Brien refer to the Cardassian’s drink as kanar, pronouncing it "KAY-nar," but by DS9, is regularly pronounced as "keh-NAR."
Who’da thought the Cardassiasn used SCUD missles?
When the Enterprise crew observe the Phoenix attacking the two Cardassian ships, Data, at one point, says that the Phoenix is moving out of the Cardassian ships’ weapons range. Can a ship move out of another ship’s weapons range that quickly under impulse? Or do the Cardassian ships have a REALLY SMALL weapons range?
But just to show Maxwell he meant business, Picard later made sure the Cabernet in the brig was lukewarm
HOW IN THE WORLD could Picard decide to let Maxwell go back to his ship at the end of Act 4, instead of immediately throwing him in the brig? He says he’ll do it to permit his "dignity," instead of the "disgrace" of towing his ship back. This guy just offed almost 700 people, and Picard lets him go back to his ship because of things like "dignity" and "disgrace?"
Riker caught laryngitis from that alien chick with the long sandpaper tongue
In Act 5, the Phoenix breaks formation, and Picard tells Riker to get O’Brien up to the bridge. Riker then pushes some buttons on his console. Why doesn’t he or Picard just page O’Brien over the comm system?
A shield with a window in it? What’s next, a hat with a sunroof?
After Maxwell implores Picard to board the Cardassian supply ship, and then threatens to blow it up, O’Brien asks Picard to let him talk to Maxwell. When Riker is skeptical, O’Brien says the Phoenix has a "high energy sensor system," that he can beam through when a window opens during the systems’ recycling. Doesn’t he mean "high energy shield system?"

After Maxwell implores Picard to board the Cardassian supply ship, and then threatens to blow it up, O’Brien asks Picard to let him talk to Maxwell. When Riker is skeptical, O’Brien says the Phoenix has a "high energy sensor system," that he can beam through when a window opens during the systems’ recycling. Doesn’t he mean "high energy shield system?"

I thought that the high energy sensor system was what interfered with the shields, and the shields had to go through a short low power part in the cycle so an not to interfere with the sensors or vice-versa.

We learn in this episode that the Federation and the Cardassian Union were at war with one another until "about a year" before this episode, according to Picard’s log. So in all the time from Encounter at Farpoint(TNG) to approximately the time of The High Ground(TNG), the Federation has been at war, and Starfleet has had the Enterprise, the most advanced, powerful ship in the fleet, the flagship, mind you, off doing exploratory work?

As I understand the Cardassians were not exactly the Romulans, their ships and weapons were not near as good at the feds. Their empire was a small threat to a minor part of the Federation, a limited war (like a Bosnia or Korean War.)

I thought of that myself, Brian, but both this episode and latter ones contradict it. Admiral Hanson tells Picard they can't afford another war with them. This seems to prove that theory wrong.

Then, of course, there's the fact that Cardassia is established to be a big power to be reckoned with in Chain of Command partI-II(TNG) and throughout DS9.

O'Brien is able to beam aboard the Phoenix because her shields allow an opening of one 15th of a second. Firstly, in battle that's pretty bad news, because the Phoenix would take more damage than normal. Secondly, a 15th of a second is even shorter than the time it takes to blink, and the quickest beaming we've probably seen is a full 2 seconds or more, so wouldn't the transporter beam just bounce off the shields? With this opening, the Phoenix could easily beam invaded.
Judging by the troubles on DS9 that the Cardassians cause, and the war, my guess is that Maxwell was told he was right, and given his command back. He's hardly the first ship captain to destroy an alien ship, and Picard is not guiltless in other times also; I'd say the Borg cube that he helped destroy in The Best Of Both Worlds, Part 2 carried more than 700 people.

He's hardly the first ship captain to destroy an alien ship, and Picard is not guiltless in other times also; I'd say the Borg cube that he helped destroy in The Best Of Both Worlds, Part 2 carried more than 700 people.

You're kinda missing the point, Will. Picard had no choice; the Borg cube was the enemy, it's stated (and otherwise unstoppable) purpose to do incalculable damage to the Federation.
Maxwell, on the other hand, beat up on what was to all intents and purposes an innocent cargo ship, at a time when the Federation was at peace with Cardassia. Yes, they probably were transporting dangerous cargo all along - but that doesn't change the fact that Captain Maxwell had no right, or orders, to make that decision at the time. (To illustrate, imagine a Cardassian captain deciding that the Enterprise was transporting war materials on what seems like incontrovertible evidence, then taking it upon himself to - without preamble - blow it away. Does your logic still sound reasonable?)

This is when you realize there's a very good reason for all those annoying 'declaration of hostilities' formalities between nations.

Will: Judging by the troubles on DS9 that the Cardassians cause, and the war, my guess is that Maxwell was told he was right, and given his command back.
Luigi Novi: The fact that the Cardassian later went to war with the Federation again has no bearing on Maxwell. There is a reason for the chain of command, and to give the type of leniency you're prescribing for Maxwell would send the message that captains can go off and do whatever the hell they want, and Starfleet wouldn't care. What Maxwell did wasn't simply a matter of killing people who later became an enemy. It was to disobey orders, go rogue, and endanger not only his crew, but the Federation as a whole. In addition, the fact that he did this out of revenge demonstrates that he is unstable, not a team player, and a threat to those he is entrusted to protect.
----If the commander of a battleship broke away from his fleet, refused to come back after being ordered to do so, travelled to the Persian Gulf and destroyed a bunch of cities in Afghanistan during our bombardment of them, do you honestly think he wouldn't have been immediately stripped of command and court martialed, simply because, "Well, hey, Afghanistan is our enemy"? Of course he would have. The military doesn't want people they can't trust and count on to follow orders. Obedience to the chain of command cannot be contingent merely on the status another country holds with yours. If a captain does this once, there's no guarantee that he won't do it again, perhaps in circumstances where his country didn't later go to war with his victims. Add the fact that the Feds were not at war with the Cardis, and that those were freighters Maxwell destroyed, this becomes even more egregious.

Will: I'd say the Borg cube that he helped destroy in The Best Of Both Worlds, Part 2 carried more than 700 people.
Luigi Novi: 5,000, actually. Sometimes more. The Omega Directive(VOY) first indicated, and Collective(VOY) explicitly established, that the standard compliment for Borg Cubes approximately 5,000 drones. In some cases, it can be up to 129,000, as was the case with the Cube that the Hansons encountered in Dark Frontier(VOY).

Kerriem, & Luigi; You make good points. I stand corrected. The writers were thinking logically, after all.
Except for that beaming thing.

Well, I dunno. At least they tried to establish a technobabble exception to the rule, as opposed to Relics(TNG), in which they simply forgot about it. I would've appreciated it if they added the qualifier that O'Brien can only do this with Nebula-class ships, because shield recycling systems are different from class to class, just to make it less likely that this could easily be done again.

The way I saw it Obrien was so familiar with his old ship that he was able to do the shield running thing. As for the Relics beaming i saw that as a 70 year technology difference between the transporters and the shields. Either that or as has been done in some books a small window in the shields was opened for the transporter beam to pass through. Of course how the shields work seems to differ from writer to writer.

Lolar, the Phoenix wasn't O'Brien's old ship. He served with Maxwell on the Rutledge.

The Nebula class is probably as young as the Galaxy class, given its saucer and nacelles, or perhaps a bit younger or bit older. I don't know if it could've been around twenty years prior to this episode in 2347, the year of the Setlik III Massacre, which was established in Realm of Fear(TNG) and Paradise(DS9).

Duh I should have remembered that. I knew they had served together and somehow that translated into aboard the ship that was in the episode. OH well. Yeah the Nebula is a contemporary of the Galaxy although I thought the Nebula was an outgrowth of the Galaxy class project and was actually a bit younger than the galaxy series of ships. I'm not sure if I read that anywhere or just jumped to that from things I've seen. This is what happens when you don't eat your vitamins your brain cells turn to tapioca pudding.

Mmmmmm. I like tapioca. I'm envisioning a scene out of Hannibal right now...

Did someone mention tapioca?

Ok guys. Remember its the white pill in the morning, the blue pill in the afternoon and the pink pill before bed, or is that the pink one in the morning or maybe the blue one..........

Pills? I don't need pills...

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS...


Whoops.

Aaron Dotter: Not a nit, but the pronunciation of kanar is different here than it is in DS9. The Cardassian says "kay-nar" here but on DS9 they say "ca-nar".

:: A Cardie from Baltimore would pronounce it KAY-nar (like PO-lice, IN-surance).

(Same): Isnt going from tactical officer to transporter chief a step down?

:: Yep. My guess would be a post-war RIF (reduction in force). With a surfeit of tactical officers, Star Fleet would have given many of them the choice of leaving the service or reverting to an equivalent enlisted rank. Based on the twentieth century model, first cuts are qualitative, but eventually the RIF becomes random, and good performers are let go.

UNCERTAIN NIT: When the Enterprise makes contact with the Cardassians, they are wearing some kind of headpiece. Later in the episode, they are not wearing them...in fact, I don't think we ever see them again...EVER. (Could someone check this out?)

I think the Chief already did, in one Guide or another. No, the 'helmets' as he referred to them don't reappear...presumably a uniform redesign on Cardassia.

(Or in non-nitpicking terms, they were causing a bit of an audience credibility problem, a la the Ferengi and their ratty-fur tunics...)

Troi is missing from this episode...that is a nit (IMHO)

Mr Mot, Nurse Ogawa and Guinan are missing from this episode. Is that a nit?

IMHO.....

Guinan--- yes, it's a nit...she's a regular.

Mr. Mot is relatively a new character and doesn't make that many appearances...therefore, no, it's not a nit. (An "extra", if you will)

Nurse Ogawa...50/50...depending on your POV.

BEST LINE: "We'll be watching" Picard to the Cardassian at the end of the episode.

Troi? At least she got a few lines at the beginning of the episode. Beverly and LaForge are the ones that get shafted...

Did I miss seeing Troi AGAIN? GRR!

I HATE when I do that!

Guinan--- yes, it's a nit...she's a regular.
Luigi Novi: No, she's not. She's a recurring supporting character.

And I'm not following your logic, John. Why is the mere lack of an appearance of any character—regular or supporting—a nit?

Unless there is a specific scene that would require a character who isn't present (or unless it's NANJAO), how is it a nit?

Luigi- That's why I added IMHO at the end. As you may be aware, IMHO = "In my head (or heart) only." Therefore, IMHO---if Troi is missing, it's a nit...despite how others may feel about it.

Uhh, John?

IMHO="In my humble opinion."

Thanks for the correction, Hannah...
Anywho...."In my humble opinion" then, Troi missing = a nit

Okay. But would you mind elaborating on why, IYHO, a person not appearing in an episode is a nit?

Oh, c'mon Luigi. Do you really want to read John pouring out his unrequited longings for Troi here on the board?

Butch is right.

Luigi, you can read that on most all of the other boards here on TNG.:P

I beleive this is the first episode to feature the Cardassians.

Yep.

Why?

Because.

Because.

Because, because, because, BECAUSE!

And why not?

Exactly.

Now that my favorite character, Dukat, is dead maybe we could ressurect Gul Macet in a future Trek movie. He could be Dukat's father, or his cousin even.

The surname can be explained away as his Father's divorce, hence his Mother's re marriage and assuming of the name Dukat.

Played by Marc Alaimo of course

I had always imagined Macet was Dukat's more balanced twin brother who was silenced by the government for his outspoken views and subsequently went into hiding. Then again, that's just me.

I always hoot with laughter near the beginning of this episode when it's shown on TV because, according to British subtitles anyway, the evil-looking and scary-looking Gul Macet has a ship called Trigger!!!

(All together now (if you're British): "Triiiigerrrr - and he pulled the fastest starship in the west.")

Have American English and British English become so different that subtitles are needed?!

Well, if a British program plays in the U.S. in which a character mentions that he's "having a fag," well, then subtitles indicating what he means might be appropriate.

True! Also when an American show plays in Britain, and talks about grabbing someone by the "fanny".

I read that an American director once ordered Richard Burton to do that to Elizabeth Taylor. The Welshman did what he thought he'd been told. The resulting footage was entertaining by all accounts, but sadly ended up on the cutting room floor.

What is a fanny in British English?

Lets just say from what I understand it is not on the back of the body. If I recall correctly.

I hope this was during one of their marriages.

It was in 1966, during filming of The Taming of the Shrew. Whether they were married at that point, I have no idea.

Brian, it's one of a lady's rude bits, and it's not in the plural...

Back on topic:
This isn't necessarily a nit, depending on which dictionary you read, but:

Picard: They took out most of my weapons and damaged the impulse engines before I could regroup and run.

It just seems odd to think of one person regrouping.

Split! *his body splits up*

Xam! *his body regroups*

Well, their first marriage was from March 15, 1964 to 1974, so it would appear it did.

One time on the Bridge, Picard calls the Cardassian leader "Captain"...the correct term is "Gul"

Well, Captain, Gul, whatever; either way, it's respectful enough.
Pretty understandable slip (in both reality and the Nitverse) given that this is the first - or close to, I'm not sure - time Our Heroes get involved with the Cardassians in any depth.

I wonder if the UT would translate captain into gul for the Cardassian.

This is a classic example of an alien race appearing rather awkwardly in one TNG episode, being fleshed out a bit in later TNG episodes, and then fully developed in DS9, albeit with a sackful of changed premises. Other examples include the Ferengi and to some extent the Trill.

This is the first appearance of the Cardassians and I think they are one of the more interesting races precisely because they can't be summed up in one sentence or even one word (e.g. Klingons, honour; Vulcans, logic). Apart from their intrinsically cold-blooded nature they remind me a little of what 24th century humanity might be like if the Nazis or some other totalitarian power had achieved world domination: they are a race of mostly good people working for questionable aims.


And then there's the Galor-class ship, which makes its first appearance here. A changed premise: this Galor seems a little smaller and much more maneouvrable than later Galors. In particular, compare its maneouvring with the Galaxy vs. Galor scenes seen in the DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels", in which both basically sit there and just move towards each other slowly like lumbering capital ships. The Galor here behaves more like a fast-attack frigate.

Actually this is explainable if you believe that Galor is a generic term and there are several different configurations and possibly sizes (ref. the Klingon BoP).

For a start, the Galors in "Ensign Ro" are called 'Type-3', implying there might be more types;

Different episodes call Galor-class ships 'attack cruisers', 'destroyers' or 'warships' - OK, two of those might be synonymous, but not all three;

And this episode and a few others, such as "Emissary" (DS9) seem to imply that the Galors just have one large forward weapon bank, while the episodes "Caretaker" (VOY) and the whole Dominion war arc show the Galors with many small disruptor turrets and the forward bank just being used for torpedoes. (Also it glows red in the earlier episodes I mentioned and blue in the later ones, implying a hardware change)

Phew, that was a long one...

Bob Gunton (Maxwell) is probably best known as the warden in "The Shawshank Redemption," but he's in a lot of stuff usually as a stuffed-shirt or slightly suspicious authority figure--"Patch Adams," "The Perfect Storm," etc.

Why didn't Picard send Maxwell to Troi for psychoanalysis to determine his state of mind?

Because D. Troi CONVENIENTLY wasn't in the episode. It'd been too easy!

Picard wouldn't send him to Troi because any kind of mental exam would result in a report that would make the Federation look very, VERY, *VERY* bad. Starfleet wants a cover up, not disclosure.

She was in the episode. Right after Macett and the other two Cardassians beam aboard and leave the room, she looks at O'Brien, sencing his hatred for Cardassians.

If someone is so in love with Troi, how could he miss her in this episode?

I fainted when I saw her (?)

I know the real reason why the Cardassians never wore those helmets again: Because they look STUPID!!!!

GREAT LINE:

Gul Macet: "I assure you..."

It's great because Marc Alaimo would use that same line many times as Gul Dukat in "DS9"

Yeah, great episode. Hatred and prejudice was something we didn't get to see much from our humans in TNG, so when it shows up you know it's big.

Everyone talks about the Cardassian helmets and even some about the skin pigmentation. But what about the little lines of hair under Macet's mouths? Did we ever see that after this episode? Or Cardassians with any facial hair?

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quote:

Aaron Dotter: Instead of trying some sort of risky transport maneuver, why didn't they use the transponder codes to lower the shields like the Cardies had just done? And why stop there? Why not just take over the whole tactical system?

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quote:

KAM: If the Federation recently fought a war and signed a peace treaty with the Cardassians, then why haven't we heard of them before this?

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quote:

KAM: The Cardassians must have worked overtime to improve their warship capabilities between this episode and the premiere of Deep Space Nine. The Enterprise and the Phoenix make pretty short work of the Cardi warships in this episode. Makes one wonder why the spoonheads were so formidable during the war?

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quote:

Brian Fitzgerald: As I understand the Cardassians were not exactly the Romulans, their ships and weapons were not near as good at the feds. Their empire was a small threat to a minor part of the Federation, a limited war (like a Bosnia or Korean War.)

Luigi Novi: I thought of that myself, Brian, but both this episode and latter ones contradict it. Admiral Hanson tells Picard they can't afford another war with them. This seems to prove that theory wrong.

Then, of course, there's the fact that Cardassia is established to be a big power to be reckoned with in Chain of Command partI-II(TNG) and throughout DS9.

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quote:

Will: Secondly, a 15th of a second is even shorter than the time it takes to blink, and the quickest beaming we've probably seen is a full 2 seconds or more, so wouldn't the transporter beam just bounce off the shields?

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quote:

Luigi Novi: I don't know if it could've been around twenty years prior to this episode in 2347, the year of the Setlik III Massacre, which was established in Realm of Fear(TNG) and Paradise(DS9).

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Well, they didn't say that the code didn't work. Maybe the Cardie ship lost despite taking down the shields.

Wouldn't the whole point of the transponder code be defeated if whomever had control of the ship could change it?

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quote:

dotter31: Well, they didn't say that the code didn't work. Maybe the Cardie ship lost despite taking down the shields.

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quote:

dotter31: Wouldn't the whole point of the transponder code be defeated if whomever had control of the ship could change it?

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Does the scene between O'Brien and Maxwell on board the Phoenix not remind anyone else of a very similar scene in Saving Private Ryan?

Joel, shouldn't that be the other way around? Saving Private Ryan was 1998. The Wounded was circa 1990 or 1991.

I am familiar with the timeline. Obviously Steven Spielberg owes the writer of this episode a lot of money.

refresh my memory but what scene in ryan were you referring to? I haven't seen it in a while.

I believe Joel is referring to the scene that takes place in the church following the death of Vin Diesel's character where the captain, Tom Hanks, is conversing with the seargent, don't know his name. If that's not it I don't know where it would be.

That is exactly the scene. Both times they reminisce about a guy they knew and how funny he used to be, and having a few laughs, before remembering he died in one of their battles.

When Picard orders him to transmit the prefix codes of the Phoenix to the Cardassian warship, Worf shows understandable resistance, since the prefix codes will enable the Cardassians to disable the Phoenix's shields. The funny thing is that Gul Macet never actually asks for prefix codes. All he asks Picard to do is to transmit the Phoenix's "coded transponder frequency" so that the Cardassians will be able to find its "precise location". The only way this would make sense would be if prefix codes and transponder frequencies are actually the same thing. If they are, Starfleet's communications system suffers from extremely poor design - why would you use the same codes to identify a ship (relatively benign) and to take control of its shields (very dangerous)? Moreover, mentioning this fact with Gul Macet on the bridge seems a very bad idea, especially from the chief of security!

Another point: Admiral Haden tells Picard that Maxwell has "gone on silent running", meaning that he ignores all attempts to communicate. Why doesn't Maxwell also turn off the Phoenix's transponder? We know he doesn't since the Enterprise is able to locate (and hence identify) the Phoenix using long-range sensors. If you're trying to keep a low profile, it seems like not broadcasting your identity, which is what a transponder does, would be the first thing you'd do.

Is it possible that transponders are designed and installed in such a way to prevent crews from disabling, in part because of scenarios like this?

Maybe it's part of the treaty that prevents cloaking technology. If you switch off the cloak, you could sneak around easier, something contradictory to the Great Bird of the Galaxy.

???? Um, but isn't that precisely what the Romulans do? They use their cloaks (I assumed you meant to say switched "on" instead of "off") to sneak around more easily?

And what does that have to do with transponders? Although there are a number of ways to make detecting cloaked ships more easy, using transponders has never been established to be one of them. That would require knowing what their transponder code is in the first place, which Starfleet typically doesn't. It's for this reason that I speculated that transponders are more an internal Starfleet contingency, rather than an inter-organization one.

As for Roddneberry, his feelings pertained to Starfleet because they were the good guys, not the Romulans. That's why Klingons and Romulans had cloaks, even as far back as TOS.

yes, I meant switched on.

as for...

Great Movie Buff of Nitcentral: "And what does that have to do with transponders?"

I was trying to convey that designing something so it couldn't be disabled by the starfleet crew could be thought of as a stupid policy for starfleet, much as the policy prohibiting cloaking technology could be thought of as a stupid policy. Why could be it considered stupid you're likely going to ask me...

well, because Starfleet is supposed to be the good guys... honorable, righteous,above corruption... at least according to the ideals of Roddenberry. So if being "sneaky" with a cloak is something that starfleet officers aren't the sort to do, then so would the need to prevent someone from disabling a transponder, because our beloved starfleet would be honorable, righteous,above corruption... and woudln't be the sort to go hunting Cardassians.

I don't see how preventing someone from disabling a transponder would violate the notion of Starfleet being honorable, since obviously, there are contingencies in which Starfleet would want this. Doesn't this episode provide the very example of that with Maxwell?

I guess it depends on what Roddenberry's idealized Earth was. Was it regarding the population as a whole, or did Roddenberry mean that no human would do such things. that is, was his idealized vision for human behavior based on the individual, or the whole human species, and thus, in the whole, you could have a few bad apples.

Having not seen every TOS episode, I was assuming that Gene was speaking about humans as individuals. I know that Gene wasn't as close to the the stories in TNG, so I took eps of TNG with human individual failings to be the vision of other writers.

As such, that is why I made the connection with the need to prevent a human individual from doing something "bad" (like disabling a transponder to go sneaking) as something that was contradictory to Roddenberry's vision of how humans behave.

I agree that Starfleet could have tried to make the transponders tamper-proof. A good engineer could probably find a way around that, though.

Interesting point about cloaked ships. It seems to me that if a cloaked ship used a transponder, another ship's sensors could detect where the transmission was coming from even if they couldn't decode it. This would at least show them that there was "something" there, whereas the goal of the cloak is to make the ship totally undetectable. Perhaps the Romulan and Klingon transponders stop transmitting when the ship is cloaked. But if that's true, how do they avoid running into each other?

From seven years ago:

"Then by that logic the Korean War is going on still. Since there never was a peace treaty signed. And there are still soldiers on both sides of the DMZ."

Yes, technically speaking, the Korean War is still going on, even though the guns fell silent 55 years ago. North and South Korea have never formally signed a peace treaty, so they, the UN, and China, are still at war, at least on paper.

Technically speaking World War II in Europe didn't end until October 3, 1990, with the reuninification of Germany. Once again, no formal peace treaty was signed between Germany and the Allies in the late 1940's. By then, the Cold War had started and any co-operation with the former Soviet Union was deemed impossible. So while diplomatic relations with Germany were normal, on paper, the war was still on until reunification.

So, there have been cases of wars still formally continuing, long after the battles themselves had ended.

As for this episode, I too think that it was strange that we never heard of this war until now. Maybe it would have been better for them to say that the peace had been made ten years ago (seven years before Encounter At Farpoint). That would have made more sense to me.

>>>By Aaron Dotter on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 4:49 pm:
I was surprised that the Phoenix took out the Cardassian warship in one volley even with its shields up.<<<

I'm not. The Enterprise can fire off at least 5 torpdeos per tube in one volley - or ten in total since she has two forward tubes. If the Nebula is based on the Galaxy class and uses the same torpedo systems that may well be more than enough to destroy the average Cardassian ship.

(The reason WHY they don't do this very often is that ships can only carry a limited number of torpedos, plus Starfleet ships tend to try and disable hostile ships rather than destroy them)

>>>Isnt going from tactical officer to transporter chief a step down? Or was O'Brien just sick of weapons? And Maxwell called him "the best". Has there been any evidence of this anywhere? (His moves on Empok Nor, perhaps?) <<<

O'Brian may have been sick of being a tactical officer and killing people and moved to a different department. He does say that he hates Cardassians for what they made him do/made him become. I'm not sure if he says this here or on DS9. It may make sense of why he served as a tactical officer then became a transporter chief and ended up as an engineer on DS9.

>>>By Teral on Wednesday, July 25, 2001 - 3:28 pm:
A Klingon in some DS9 episode, I can't remember which, seems to think Bajorans (represented by Odo)and Klingons is allies. <<<

Bajor was an ally of the Federation at the time. Since the Klingons were allies of the Federation as well they might have considered Bajor to be their ally by default.

>>>By LUIGI NOVI on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 11:32 am:
Apparently, "delta sequence" means "admire the scenery"
After the Cardassian ship first attacks the Enterprise in the beginning of the episode, Picard orders "evasive action, delta sequence," and orders phasers ready. The Enterprise does fire on the ship, but takes no evasive action at all, even though Data indicated they were when he answered Picard�s order. The Enterprise simply travels forward casually in the same direction in was traveling before, while the Cardassian ship flies around the Enterprise in an circular manner. <<<

If the Cardassian ship was much manovourable than the Enterprise then a battle between the two might well result in Enterprise seeming to be flying straight ahead, even if she's performing evasive actions.

>>>Or is the Enterprise just the ship where they send all the ex-soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder on those lovely cruises to discover soothing energy-based lifeforms?
We learn in this episode that the Federation and the Cardassian Union were at war with one another until "about a year" before this episode, according to Picard�s log. So in all the time from Encounter at Farpoint(TNG) to approximately the time of The High Ground(TNG), the Federation has been at war, and Starfleet has had the Enterprise, the most advanced, powerful ship in the fleet, the flagship, mind you, off doing exploratory work? When you�re at war, don�t you place your strongest weapons at the forefront? And why has there been no mention of this war until now? Perhaps the war continued until just before the beginning of the series, and the Enterprise was built for the war, and a cease fire was declared sometime before Encounter at Farpoint, but the treaty wasn�t finalized until a year before this episode, but no dialogue is supplied to support this. <<<

At the time of Encounter at Farpoint there were at least three Galaxy class ships in service - The Galaxy (after which the class is named. The USS Galaxy was part of the fleet of ships the Enterprise E was heading for in ST Nemesis) the Yamato (Sister ship to the Enterprise. Destroyed in the Neutral zone by a computer virus) and the USS Enterprise herself (Which was the second or third ship launched). Just because Enterprise wasn't sent to the Cardassian border doesn't mean one of the other two were not. All we know is that the Yamato was assigned along the neutral zone at some point before she was lost.

While it has never been made clear how many Galaxy class ships Starfleet was intending to build at the time of TNG (some say 6, others 12 to match the number of Constitution class ships from TOS), it is reasonable to assume they were intending to build more than three such ships.

No doubt Starfleet might have wanted to avoid sending in their newest ships until they were sure there were no major problems with the tactical systems of the ships, so they may not have assigned any of the first three ships to the Cardassian boarder for a while. They might also have decided they didn't need to if the war was starting to wind down - its never been made clear exactly when talks started or a cease-fire arranged.

Note; Enterprise was not the most powerful ship in the fleet, the Yamato was her sister ship and therefore presumably had the same abilities. It would be more accurate to say that Enterprise is of the most powerful class of the time.

>>>By LUIGI NOVI on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 8:43 pm:

I thought of that myself, Brian, but both this episode and latter ones contradict it. Admiral Hanson tells Picard they can't afford another war with them. This seems to prove that theory wrong. <<<

Not really. The Romulans have turned back up, the Borg may be back and the Klingons have just been through a Civil war. Hanson probably means that Starfleet has enough problems protecting its space as it is and can't really afford to get into another war as this would mean weakening their defences elsewhere.

>>>By Lolar Windrunner on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 4:38 pm:
OH well. Yeah the Nebula is a contemporary of the Galaxy although I thought the Nebula was an outgrowth of the Galaxy class project and was actually a bit younger than the galaxy series of ships.<<<

I *Think* this was mentioned in the technical guide, or one of them. It may also be in the encycopedia.

>>>By Sophie on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 2:16 am:
This isn't necessarily a nit, depending on which dictionary you read, but:

Picard: They took out most of my weapons and damaged the impulse engines before I could regroup and run.

It just seems odd to think of one person regrouping.<<<

Captains often say 'my' when talking about their ships. All the Captains for example say 'my ship' even though in the strictest sense the Enterprise is not Picards ship, she belongs to the Federation. They also quite often say 'my' when it comes to command decissions to make it clear that they take ultimate responsibilty for what happened (Which they have to).
If Picard made an error in judgment that lead to his ship getting damaged it would be quite in character for him to say 'My weapons' etc to make it clear he wasn't blaming the crew or his officers.

>>>By Adam on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 9:42 pm:

Picard wouldn't send him to Troi because any kind of mental exam would result in a report that would make the Federation look very, VERY, *VERY* bad. Starfleet wants a cover up, not disclosure.<<<

Which makes no sense as Picard was quite willing to disclose to the Romulans that Starfleet had been working on a cloaking device. You'd think that if there was any race you'd want to hide activities from it would be the Romulans.

>>>By LUIGI NOVI (Lnovi) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 9:37 am:
As for Roddneberry, his feelings pertained to Starfleet because they were the good guys, not the Romulans. That's why Klingons and Romulans had cloaks, even as far back as TOS.<<<

Roddneberry's comments were the Starfleet didn't sneak around the Galaxy, but operated openly.

Tim: technically speaking, the Korean War is still going on, even though the guns fell silent 55 years ago.
Good point; however technically, as far as the US is concerned, there wasn't a war in Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq becuase war hasn't been declared since WWII.

Cybermortis: The Enterprise can fire off at least 5 torpdeos per tube in one volley - or ten in total since she has two forward tubes.
The E-D has only one forward photon torpedo tube, one aft, and supposedly one in the saucer section where it connects to the star-drive section, but it's not been on the show so it may not be canon. Also, I believe it can five six torpedoes in one 'spread' but was never seen.

inblackestnight: as far as the US is concerned, there wasn't a war in Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq becuase war hasn't been declared since WWII.


Yeah, but ask any of the poor guys who fought in one of those wars and they will tell you, it was a war. In all cases, one country was attacking another country, that makes it a war in my books. North Korea attacking South Korea is the same as Germany attacking France.

>>>By inblackestnight on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 10:42 am:
Cybermortis: The Enterprise can fire off at least 5 torpdeos per tube in one volley - or ten in total since she has two forward tubes.
The E-D has only one forward photon torpedo tube, one aft, and supposedly one in the saucer section where it connects to the star-drive section, but it's not been on the show so it may not be canon. Also, I believe it can five six torpedoes in one 'spread' but was never seen.<<<

I just checked the Technical manual. The Galaxy class does indeed have three torpedo tubes, one of which is hidden in the saucer-section and has never been seen in use. I must be confusing my Enterprise's since the refit Constitutions have two forward torpedo tubes - although they can only fire two torpedo's in succession from what was shown of those ships.

The specs say that the tubes can fire up to ten torpedo's at the same time. The most that were ever seen to be fired simultaneously, from what I can remember, was five in one go in Yesterdays Enterprise.

Tim, mind me asking what was your first trek and how old and where you're at?

Classic Trek, about thirty years ago.

I wonder if this episode was written because of the times. In 1990-91, there was a war brewing with Iraq, so I wonder if this is why this episode was written. They wanted to reflect the mood of what was going on. This would explain this major war that just seemed to come out of nowhere.

Would this episode have been made if Iraq had NOT occupied Kuwait.

thanks.It was Tos Private Little War..My first one was so silly..
a pointy- eared guy telling a doctor how to operate..

Didn't you say your first episode was "Spock's Brain?"

>>>I wonder if this episode was written because of the times. In 1990-91, there was a war brewing with Iraq, so I wonder if this is why this episode was written.<<<

Highly unlikely, given the time it takes to go from idea to finished script and that the invasion of Kuwait took everyone by surprise.

Nove, I was switching channels, my 3 channels, when I came across this pointed eared
hobgoblin telling a doctor how to operate...at ten thirty or so...pm-

wow you got a a great memory or you looked it up!


since Charlie's ex, i was hooked on any TRek..

This has probably been discussed already, but I have just started wondering about the other galactic powers the Federation has been at war with (beside the two obvious ones, of course.)

Was it ever established on screen just when the Federation made first contact with the Cardassians? Were they known to Starfleet before the 24th century? Because in a non-canon comic, Spock and Sarek are at odds as how to deal with the Legarans and the treaty that Sarek has been trying to negotiate with them for a long time. In this story, Cardassians are involved as well.

So, I was wondering about this. I'm thinking that maybe Captain Garrett of the Enterprise-C might have had dealings with them, which would have been at some point in the early 2300's.

As for the goofy look of the Cardassians in their first appearance, I'm glad those weird helmets and their ugly brown uniforms didn't last very long!

I also wonder just when it was first discovered by the Federation what the Cardassians had done to Bajor and it's people. There was dialogue at some point about Starfleet being accused of being "innocent bystanders" while Bajor was occupied by the Union. Of course, for a long time while all of the atrocities were happening, the Prime Directive was the main reason why the Federation did not, or could not, interfere.

How accurate is that? I don't remember if it was ever revealed when the Federation and the Cardassians made first contact, and I also don't remember when Bajor was first occupied and conquered, and for how long the Federation was aware of it, but were unable to do anything about it.

Anyway, seeing as how the Cardassians and the Romulans were similar in many ways, they were allies at one point on DS9. And they both were enemies of the Klingons, for different reasons.
And all three of these galactic powers were all adversaries of the Federation at one point as well. It's like some "Six degrees of Star Trek" kind of thing happening!

I also don't remember when Bajor was first occupied and conquered
IIRC 90 years was the number usually given on DS9.

According to the "Conflicts" article on Memory Alpha, Bajor was occupied by the Cardassians from 2328 to 2369, with the Resistance being active against them the whole time.

As for when the Federation had first made contact with the Cardassians, the article says that the war between them started in the 2340's and ended in 2367, just before this episode took place. Also it was in 2344 when the Enterprise-C, commanded by Rachel Garrett, went through the temporal rift and altered the timeline so that the Federation and the Klingon Empire were at war - and the Federation was losing. However, there is no canonical information on when the two powers first encountered each other.

So, all this does mean that Captain Garrett could *possibly* have had some dealings with the Cardassians, as I stated above, but whatever they were, we do not know.

I love Memory Alpha/Beta. They're so informative!

According to the "Conflicts" article on Memory Alpha, Bajor was occupied by the Cardassians from 2328 to 2369, with the Resistance being active against them the whole time.

Problem is, that's only 41 years. In the episode where Odo relived an experience from the past with Garak, Dax and Sisko, he expressed to the security guy played by Kurtwood Smith that "After more then 50 years of occupation is there anyone that isn't associated with the resistance in some way?" (or similar words).

Are those 50 Earth years, 50 Bajor years or 50 Cardassia years?

Good point, I admit I didn't think of that. Given it's Odo that said it, I'd assume it's 50 Bajoran years.

Well, there certainly are a few inconsistencies here and there, that's for sure. I just wondered about the length of time Cardassia occupied Bajor, and the approximate period in the mid-24th century that the conflict between Cardassians and the Federation existed.

Anyway, Chris and Francois, you do both raise good points. I cannot answer either question, unfortunately.

I still like that the Cardassians were eventually given different uniforms and that the goofy helmets were done away with. And I wonder if Gul Macet was in some way related to Dukat. Being portrayed by the same actor, it's certainly possible. And unlike Dukat, who was like a complete and utter genocidal dictator, Macet was more easy to sympathize with in comparison. He was a more reasonable representative of his race. And it was the first time we see this race after all, and they were adversaries of the Federation for a while, so the writers/producers were attempting a certain portrayal of them. It's like how the Ferengi were seen on TNG as opposed to the way we would see them on DS9. Quite a contrast, wouldn't you say?

I know this should be in the ST novels section but a book was released earlier this year that follows up on the now former Captain Maxwell.

It's a DS9 book subtitled Force and Motion and while I'm only a few chapters in, so far it's been fairly interesting! Here's the cover synopsis:

In 2367, Captain Benjamin Maxwell of the starship Phoenix ordered the destruction of a Cardassian warship and a supply vessel, killing more than six hundred crew members. Maxwell believed that the Cardassians were arming for a new attack on the Federation, and though history eventually proved he was probably correct, the Federation had no choice but to court martial and incarcerate him.

Almost twenty years have passed, and now Maxwell is a free man, working as a maintenance engineer on the private science station Robert Hooke, home to crackpots, fringe researchers, and, possibly, something much darker and deadlier. Maxwell’s former crewmate, Chief Miles O’Brien, and O’Brien’s colleague, Lieutenant Commander Nog, have come for a visit. Unfortunately, history has proven that whenever O’Brien and Nog leave Deep Space 9 together, unpredictable forces are set into motion...

The problem is that, prior to this episode, there was no indication of the war between the Federation and the Cardassians. If it had only ended a year before, then it would have still be going on during the first few seasons of TNG.

And this was not a Cold War, like the one between the Federation and the Klingons, in Kirk's time, this was a hot, shooting war (from what we would learn on TNG after this, plus DS9 and VOY).

The Enterprise would not be gallivanting around the galaxy if this was going on, they would be on the front lines (as was suggested in Chain Of Command, should the war start up again).

The writers could have avoided this problem by just saying that the war ended ten years ago (or any time before the start of the show). Problem solved.