I found a site with an interesting essay on "forbidden love" in Star Trek, which mentions this and several other episodes. The producers try to have it both ways on the subject, only pretending to deal with the issues. For example, Jonathan Frakes wanted the part of Soren to be played by a man, which would have made the episode a lot more daring. But instead, the aliens are all played by women, who act like Lesbian Separatists, grim and dour. And some of them didn't have their feminine features completely hidden.

http://www.pkbaseline.com/screen/strange/ready/forbid.html

On another point of the episode, the "null space" they're investigating sounds like a black hole. So why didn't they call it a black hole? What's the difference? Why didn't they even mention black holes?

Soren talks about inseminating a husk. So, these husks just lying about, or do they pop out of the people somehow?

Now, this next one really isn't really a nit from the episode itself, more its publicity.
This is the big one, in A Very Special Star Trek: The Next Generation, we take on homosexuality (so says every review/advert/summary/whatever of this episode).
Er, but it doesn't.
OK, Riker falls for Soren. Soren falls for Riker. We find out all about how members of Soren's race get in big trouble when they start having gender indentities. Soren pulls back and reveals that s/he has a gender identity...s/he's...*female*.
Viewers everywhere are rocked as it turned out that Riker's dating a woman.
This isn't a notion of what's right or wrong, this is simply accuracy. Riker's male. Soren, we discover, is female. Sorry, but that's heterosexuality.

Well said.

Ratbat,

Sorry, but the issue of the episode IS homosexuality.

In our society, homosexuals are outcasts (today less than in the past, but still..). The creators of the episode wanted to make a statement, how wrong the treatment of gay people is, so they invented a society, in which heterosexuals are treated badly.

Neatly sidestepping the issue of gay relationships in the future.

Hmmm...
Dukat, I guess I can see what you're saying there - although to me it makes it about any group that have been discriminated against because of their behaviour. But then, maybe that was the point too.
The thing is, though, they do the homosexuality 'issue' without doing any 'non-issue' first. When TOS did 'racism issue', they'd already had a whole bunch of stuff with mixed races working happily together to show the 'plus side', to show how it's not an issue to 23rd-century people. This time, we didn't have any other homosexual stuff beforehand (or even very much at all since). No contrast, no showing how our heroes are above this kind of bigotry.

Thanks for the link, Stephen -- that's a great essay!

I didn't know that about Frakes, either. Good for him. :-)

I read some of the article - interesting, it mentions Phil's Nitpicker's Guide!

Didn't Berman and company do their homework when naming the villian in "Generations" Dr. Soran, a name too similar to Soren?
This is not the worst episode, not by a long shot. The relationship between Soren and Riker was rather touching. Melinda Culea's performance was very understated, where it could have been preachy.
There was so much anti-gay flaming regarding a certain episode of "Once And Again", particularly on the ABC board, that I wonder if it had a hand in the show's demise (although it is said that the network execs do not read their own boards.)

Adam, there are lots of instances of use of either identically-spelled or identically-pronounced words and names in Trek.

Jarvis was the prefect of Argelius II in Wolf in the Fold(TOS), and a Voyager security officer seen in Projections(VOY).

Krell was the name of a character from A Private Little War(TOS), and the Cardassian exobiologist from Nothing Human(VOY).

Both the Keeper of the shore leave planet in Shore Leave(TOS) and the Nacene who cared for the Ocampa in Caretaker(VOY) were called the Caretaker.

Dax was the name of an Enterprise-A crewman in ST VI, and a regular on DS9.

Armus IX is the name of a planet Riker once visited, as established in Angel One(TNG), and Armus is the name of the creature from Skin of Evil(TNG).

Pagh is the name of a Klingon Bird of Prey from A Matter of Honor(TNG), and the Bajoran word for someone’s lifeforce, or spirit.

The Valley of Chula, a location on Romulus, was seen in The Defector(TNG), and a Wadi game called Chula was seen in Move Along Home(DS9).

T’Pel is the false name used by Subcommander Selok in Data’s Day(TNG), the name of Voyager crewman Tuvok’s wife, as established in Persistence of Vision(VOY) and Flashback(VOY), and the city in which his daughter, Aysil was born, as established in Act 2 of Unimatrix Zero part II.

Devor was the name of the trilithium resin thief played by Tim Russ (Tuvok on Voyager) in Starship Mine(TNG), and while not spelled the same, is phonetically identical to the Devore, the Delta Quadrant race from Counterpoint(VOY).

Terok is a Cardassian designation used in the name of the space station that later became DS9, as well as a moon used by the Kazon-Ogla as a training ground, as seen in Initiations(VOY).

Kes is the name of one of the two main nation states on KesPrytt III from Attached(TNG), and a Voyager crewman.

Pel is the name of the female Ferengi who impersonated a male in Rules of Acquisition(DS9), and the Vidiian doctor that Voyager’s Doctor fell in love with in Lifesigns(VOY).

Martis was the name of the con artist from Rivals(DS9), and the name of Kes’ mother, seen in Before and After(VOY) (though I believe the latter name is from the script only, and appears in The Star Trek Encyclopedia.)

Tobin was the name of one of the hosts of the Trill symbiont known as Dax, as well as the Kotti ambassador seen in Someone to Watch Over Me(VOY).

Tuvok, of course, is a Voyager officer, and the name of a Klingon general Gowron mentions toward the end of Tacking Into the Wind(DS9) before General Martok cuts him off in mid-sentence. (I tried to verify this with the closed captioning, thinking maybe Gowron said "Tuvot," rather than "Tuvok," but oddly enough, the closed captioning said "Nemchick.")

Tanis is the name of the Ocampan from Cold Fire(VOY) and spelled differently but pronounced the same, General Tanas is a Klingon General that Worf mentions to Martok in the teaser of Sons and Daughters(DS9).

Kellan was the First Minister of Rakosa V in Dreadnought(VOY), and spelled differently, Kellin was the name of the Remuran tracer who fell in love with Chakotay in Unforgettable(VOY).

Sirol was the name of the Romulan commander in The Pegasus(TNG), and the drone that appeared in Act 2 of Unimatrix Zero, whom Axum said was a friend of Seven’s, in Unimatrix Zero part I.

Brax is a planet where Q is known as the God of Lies, according to Vash in Q-Less(DS9), and Dexa’s son from Homestead(VOY).


While most of the above examples may have been inadverdant, the creators don’t seem to think the reoccurance of a word among many cultures is implausible, inasmuch as Act 2 of Darmok(TNG) stated there were 47 different entries for the word "Darmok."

OK, Luigi, you officially have way too much time on your hands.

Seriously...I don't exactly see how the above negates Adam's point, ie. the creators are kinda lazy re: reusing names.
(Of course, given that there are now, what, three or four hundred hours total of Trek out there...19-20 duplicates is a pretty good average.)

I stand relieved. I noted this as TNN ran this episode the other night and the similarity of names creamed me over the head.
Also, the name of Data's (and Lore's) creator, Noonian Soong, is very close to the name of Kirk's nemesis Khan Noonian Singh. (I hope my spelling is OK.)

Roddenberry named Kahn and Data's creator after a person that he knew when he flew in the airforce named Noonian Soong.

Thank you, kerriem. Actually, the above list is one of the tote boards in my Nitpick Document, and I just cut and pasted it. The only thing I had to do was format it.

Also, last night's episode of Enterprise featured a new one: Whereas Damar was Leader of Cardassia in the final two years of DS9, D'Marr, spelled differently, was the alien trader in the teaser of Oasis(ENT).

When there was just Classic Trek, I used to do very well on the trivia tests they had at conventions. Now, with so much more Trek out there, there is just no way I can absorb it all. If I catch anything like what I noted above, it is usually right after the episode airs, when it hits me over the head.

Data says that the shuttle is nowhere in the star system, but wouldn't the star, planets and anything else floating around the system interfere with the scan?

Since the null space pocket apparently bends light around it wouldn't there be a bit of a distortion as a star or the sun passes behind it?

If the J'naii have a neutral personal pronoun, then why haven't Starfleet personnel been told what word to use? For that matter why doesn't the Universal Translator just translate the right word? When the J'naii use this word Starfleet personnel would hear the word as 'it' and when Starfleet personnel use 'it' the J'naii hear 'it' as the proper word.

Soren says that she doesn't understand about two genders. but then she says that long ago the J'naii had two sexes. So why aren't there any books or records of the old ways?

Soren refers to the gender leaning classmate as a "he" very easily. Shouldn't Soren use the gender neutral pronoun instead, or at the very least say something like, "it... I mean he..."?

My mom wondered how Riker, Soren and the two unconscious J'naii can transport from null space to the Enterprise if the shuttle can't even communicate with the Enterprise? (And wouldn't they need the Shuttle computer to rematerialize properly?)

Don't the J'naii have doctors? How would a Jenaii hide their gender differences from a doctor? Wouldn't the doctor notice that a Jenaii was too male or too female and either recommend a course of treatment or report the throwback to the authorities? On a world where being one gender is the worst of crimes, I seriously doubt that a doctor/patient confidentiality would exist, at least on this issue.

The favoring of one gender over another may be in their behavior, rather than in their anatomy.

Soren says that she doesn't understand about two genders. but then she says that long ago the J'naii had two sexes. So why aren't there any books or records of the old ways?

Well...given the current civilization's horror of anything pertaining to two genders, if there are, they're probably strictly controlled need-to-know stuff. Something that only scientists (and maybe underground pornographers) have access to.

A physician might very well notice that an individual was exhibiting strong characteristics of one SEX; it would take a psychologist or similar professional to notice the favoring of one GENDER. "Sex" and "gender" are not interchangable words--one refers to the physical, the other refers to the role an individual assumes in society; yet another linguistic battle I'll never win, yet I fight on. ;-)

What a barfy episode...I am so sick & tired of the "Prime Directive issue" episodes. Everybody on ship knows the Prime Directive, everyone is supposed to OBEY the Prime Directive, so why don't they? Huh? Just because they feel it's inconvenient at this particular time? I found myself laughing at Riker after the failed rescue attempt. He should've known better. Besides that, I'd rather have Troi. (Of course, everyone knows that by now)

Geordi has a mustache and a beard in this episode...the previous episode he doesn't have either. Neither does he have one after this episode. It seems rather odd to introduce this feature on Geordi then eliminate it so quickly without an explanation.

Why does everything have to have an explanation, John? He tried it out, decided he didn't care for it, and then got rid of it. It wasn't a major character arc, or anything. Does everything single molecule we notice on the show have to have a footnote?

Well, I was sort of expecting SOMEONE to say, "Hey, nice beard, Geordi." or something of that nature.

John's right- think of the characters of Trek or any T.V. show in the same vein as a comic strip. The creators of such strips always go to great lengths to create story arcs for any time they want to make a change in a character's appearance (most often a haircut), so that readers don't pick up the paper and ask, "Who the #!$&)@%( is that?" With a weekly show, you have much the same idea- remember when Kes changed her hair suddenly? 'Course, that was Voyager and so much of Voyager should be left unexplained...

I seem to recall Data asking Geordi if he planned on growing out his beard in an episode, though I forget which one. I believe it was during a poker game where Crusher said that beards were just an affectation.

Yeah, Sparrow, but those characters are drawn (often caricatured) not real people. We don`t see them move, we don`t hear their voices, we don`t note the change of their faces with each new expression. I`m having a hard time believing that anyone seeing LeVar Burton in a beard suddenly went `Hey! Where`d that Geordi dude go!`

In short, I gotta agree with Luigi here - stuff happens on a TV show, the way it does in real life. The creators are not obliged to insert a drumroll every time they change a detail.

I don't remember which ep it was but Data asked him if he planed on continuing to grow it out and Geordi said something to the effect of he was trying something new and may or may not keep it.

RHETORICAL QUESTION: When someone is born on the planet surface, what does the doctor say when the child is born?

(On Earth, they say, "It's a boy" or "It's a girl")

Also, I'm not sure I'd want to see the bathrooms on this planet either.

It'a a... baby!

But is it a boy or a girl?

Yes.

On Earth, they say, "It's a boy" or "It's a girl")

LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness makes this point, too. She comments on the "first question we ask" when a baby is born.

"For example, Jonathan Frakes wanted the part of Soren to be played by a man, which would have made the episode a lot more daring."

But the last time I checked, Riker wasn't gay.

"For example, Jonathan Frakes wanted the part of Soren to be played by a man, which would have made the episode a lot more daring."

But the last time I checked, Riker wasn't gay.

But the whole point of the ep was that those aliens don't have genders. It would have been more daring if Soren had seemed more male than female in her/his outside apperance.

But Rene may have a point in that why would Riker have been attracted to someone who appeared mostly male?

Exactly. Riker never gives any indication before or after this that he finds males attractive.

DELETED SCENE: Pat Reiley of classic Saturday Night Live fame is appointed Prime Minister of the J'Naii.

The world is mine, therefore the world is under my control.

I think the argument of the character of Soren being played by a male or female to be missing the issue at hand altogether. I think the crucial element of Riker's attraction to Soren is meant to be emotional and intellectual, not purely physical.

Also, the scene in the "courtroom" of sorts, where Soren gives his/her speech/rant about being cast out and living a lie, etc? I think that scene, and the one that proceeded it, wherein Soren explains the situation of being "different" to Riker to be no less a statement on homosexuality than the religious/anti-religious undertones that are subltly (or not so) implied in many messages. I know those particular scenes struck on almost every nerve I had long put to rest since my days of being "in the closet"...

It doesn't change the fact that Riker is NOT gay, so having him attracted to someone who looks male does not make sense.

I've seen some feminine looking males in my time Rene.

Jphn A. Lang: Also, I'm not sure I'd want to see the bathrooms on this planet either.


I'd assume they would be the ones from Ally McBeal

Also, for us ugly bags of mostly water, the male can stand up to go, but he can also sit down to go. So only one toilet design is necessary.

But does each crew quarters on the Enterprise D have over 150 toilets in their rooms? You never know when the enterprise has to transport diplomats or other people from any of the 150+ Federation planets.

Holographic Toilets maybe (easy to clean too)

Speaking of homosexuality being dealt with on Trek...wasn't Lt. Hawk from First Contact supposed to be gay? There's no mention of it in the film, although it might have been talked about in a non-canon novel. I can't remember.

Yes, it was in the Non-Cannon Section 31 TNG novel.

As for the name thing above, I've given allot of thought to this.

With hundreds of thousands of planets containing millions or billions of people and places, isn't it rather likely that you'd be getting some duplicate names?

This opens up plenty of possibilities for story gags (a creature/planet who's name is a human curse, a character gathering suspicion because he is named like a planet's villian, an alien diplomat named Kahn, Bin-Laden, Hitler, etc.)

The only problem I can see is that all the same-names end up at the Enterprise. But even then, as often as they travel and as many people as they interact with, that's possible too.

Melinda Culea (Soren) was reporter Amy Allen on "The A-Team."

Megan Cole (Noor) was Elaine's germophobic colleague, Peggy, on a few episodes of "Seinfeld."

Ill bet this is George Takei's favorite episode of any Star Trek!

no, its gotta be when he got to run around without a shirt showing off his manly chest and waving a sword at people...

That's roughly equivalent to saying that Let That Be Your Last Battlefield(TOS) must be Avery Brooks' and Michael Dorn's favorite episode of any Trek.

I don't know about that, but I'm pretty sure God's favorite movie is Star Trek V.

"Why does G-d need a movie?"

His favorite movie is one in which an evil imposter is mistaken for him????? I'd think he'd far prefer Sacred Ground(VOY).

But Klingon's killed their gods so Devil's Due isn't God's favorite...

I think any episode involving Q would be god's favorite...

Big Name Fan Lizbee refuses to watch this episode because of its' "overwhelming homophobia"

"Big Name Fan", huh? News flash about that moniker, from Wikipedia:

"Fans report ambivalent feelings towards BNFs. The title BNF also carries a negative connotation of being arrogant and self-important.[citation needed] Accordingly, many people who are deemed BNFs resist using that designation."

Hmm, remind of you of anyone? It seems as if I am one of these. Without even knowing it, as this is the first time I have ever even heard of this term!

Are we all supposed to know just who this "Lizbee" is, FFC? Perhaps if you would be so inclined, you could elaborate on this individual's identity further?

I agree that the episode was homophobic, though. Blast you Berman, for severely watering down the original script into this pitiful piffle, giving the excuse that the audience "would not be ready for such a portrayal at this point in time" or some other drivel similar to that. For shame! For shame!

But what the hell did you expect from the man? Am I right?....

"overwhelming homophobia"
Excuse me??? It's a story involving a race that is sexphobic, homo, hetero, bi, whatever (not counting whatever that husk business was all about.)

The point of the episode on the other hand was pro-sexuality. It may have been delivered using heterosexuality, but was there anyone who didn't realize what the real message was?

Then again, what ticks off so many people about this episode was the fact that they did "water down" the message. *shrug*

While this episode has many flaws I think those who describe it as homophobic have redefined homophobia to mean "not rabidly pro-homosexuality".

The only fear involved in this episode was the fear of a potential backlash, which isn't homophobia it's homophobiaphobia, "fear of homophobes".

On the other hand sometimes when making a point it can help to expand the point beyond the specific to the general.

Although I can appreciate this episode years later in a science fiction context (ie - single gender aliens), we're still 21st century TV viewers, and I doubt there's any of us out there that can understand how Riker could overlook Soren's bland homliness and fall in love with it.
When he confessed these feelings to Troi, I was asking myself, 'You prefer Soren over...HER?!'. The ultra-feminine, lovely, curvaceous Deanna Troi doesn't match the man-like, eyebrowless, monk-haired Soren?
It all seemed too much like 'Requiem For Methuselah' to me, when Kirk falls head over heels with Rayna in a matter of minutes.
I can only imagine how much futher the producers and writers of this episode would have gone if it had been made in 2014.

This show was SO last century

Seriously, what was all the fuss about? When you compare this to the likes of what Torchwood got away with, this is tame (Rick Berman was no Russell T. Davies).

What would happen to the J'Naii if Captain Jack even decided to visit their world.