Considering the fact that Captain Jellico is supposed to be a "Good captain", his attitude in shuffling departments and things around when he first comes aboard the Enterprise is strange.

I'm in the military and I've seen commanders come and go. A good commander may want to make changes but won't push as hard and take the advice and suggestions of his subordinates. Bad commanders (and I've had them) do like Jellico. this usually causes a loss of morale and efficiency. (I have seen one company commander relieved of command because of this)

My question is seeing how Jellico operates didn't Starfleet take into account that it may actually be a detriment to the mission?

Starfleet was trying to make it look like the change in command was permanent. But, the brass knew that Picard would probably return to his post with in a few weeks. "Shake 'em up" Jellicoe's actions seemed to play into that myth.

Well we all knew that Picard would be back....

I'm always shocked at Starfleet's actions towards obvious threats. Are things that good in the Federation that war is not a real threat? Picard is probably the best captain in Starfleet. not including Kirk (and thats a whole different era both in Sar trek time and TV time) Picard is a true hero captain guy. He's a real assett. I don't find it reasonable that Starfleet would send him, and DOCTOR Crusher on this mission. Crusher would have little to none in tactical experience and Picard is more valuable as a starship commander rather than a commando. Jellico seems like the guy who get the job done on a wartime basis. But in the context of the episode it just doesn't gel with me.

Heres a better question...does Starfleet have special commando units like SEALS or a Delta Force? (I'm not including Section 31...thats more like a CIA)

Isn't Crusher's rank that of commander?

Jellico coming in and "shuffling ranks." I know a number of organizations that have to go through that when a new supervisor comes from outside.

Perhaps Starfleet simply hasn't paid much attention to Jellico's relationships with his subordinates. He might not make any friends among his crew, but he does get the job done. As far as interpersonal relations, he might not be "a particularly good captain," as Riker points out. However, he does get results. And maybe that's more important to Starfleet.

My question is, why didn't they just launch a missile at it? The Maquis have these super missiles and so do the Cardassians. Seemingly, these things can fly cloaked and blow things up quite well, if Dreadnaught is any indication. So why not use one of those instead? They're much more expendable. Would the Federation object to using a cloaking device on them? It's not like that would be any less illegal than sending commandos!

Didn't Stewart out-nude "NYPD Blue" by baring his butt nine months before that show's debut?
Ronny Cox was in some real cool sci-fi flicks, usually playing hard-asses, like "Total Recall" and the first "Robocop."

If Jellico is coming aboard to take command, complete with a reading-in of Captain Jellico, how come he isn't greeted in the transporter room with full courtesy and honors, like a bosun's whistle and sideboys?

I find the crew's reaction to Jellico a little over-the-top. All the scenes on the Enterprise seem to consist of Geordi and others whining about Jellico's different way of doing things. However, this IS a military vessel, and it IS being sent on an important, perilous mission.

Yeah, but if the viewers don't hate the new captain, we can't beg and hope that our good ol' captain makes it through and we can't be oh so elated when he makes it back! So we have to have lots of scenes of the crew acting as if they feel Jellico is unreasonable and irrational.

I'm kinda curious how someone as backwardly diplomatic as Jellico managed to reach the rank of Captain. I suppose that he could have just been acting un-diplomatic specially for this mission. Although if that's the case, I would have hoped our favorite empath could have sensed enough to at least have a hint at this ruse.

I think this is the worst Star Trek story ever and I only watched both episodes a second time to find nits.

Picard chews Out Doctor Crusher for not setting a deflector properly. While I realize that Dr. Crusher has in various episodes shown a good aptitude for mechanics, her primary field of expertise is medicine, not mechanics. Also why would such a delicate device be used in the field? Logically you would use a device that any idiot can use, not just a trained mechanic.

Why are Crusher and Worf even on this mission? Instead of Crusher, they could have sent a Doctor who is used to working in the field and on the run. It just seemed like Crusher relied on her tricorder for information about the alleged viruses, anyway. Worf might have been on the mission because he craves battle, but Admiral Nechayev told Riker that it was important to have someone skilled in dealing with the Cardassians, so wouldn't it be equally important to have the Enterprise's Chief Tactical Officer manning his station? (Unless, of course, word of Worf's notorious bad aim has gotten back to Starfleet command.)

Did Starfleet even send replacements to the Enterprise for the Chief Medical Officer and Tactical Officer?

They're sending the Enterprise into a possible war zone, but they haven't evacuated the children and civilians from the ship?

Captain Jellico has Picard's fish taken out of the Ready Room, then later hands Picard a book and says that it is his, but when Jellico slumps back into his chair, behind him is the Brazilian Agate that was there when Picard captained the Enterprise.

Given the problems that Jellico has and will have with Riker, why didn't he request that his first officer from the Cairo be transferred to the Enterprise?

Why isn't the Tactical Officer of the Flagship of the Federation familiar with all types of weapons? Worf should know what a metagenic weapon is.

They talk about sending a metagenic weapon by carrier wave. Why not use some kind of probe? A carrier wave sounds like the virus would be floating free in space or at least beamed through space.

In Phil's plot summary in the NextGen Guide the metagenic weapon is described as capable of destroying all DNA on a planet, which is interesting since a large amount of life exists underwater and underground, some bacteria have been discovered about a mile down. It is also interesting since if the weapon was used this means that the Cardassians would have to bring things like worms and other creatures to the planet so plant life could grow in the soil, and the plant's could produce oxygen, insects would be needed to pollinate the plants, etc., etc. It just seems like more trouble than it is worth to repopulate an entire ecosystem just so you could establish a colony there.

Those black outfits that Picard, Crusher and Worf wear don't look like they offer that much protection. If they hit their heads on a stalactite I don't think that black cloth would prevent a head injury. (Not to mention keeping Dr. Crusher from becoming Dr. Crushed when buried by those paper maché rocks.)

If Picard and company are on a secret raid, then why don't they whisper instead of talking normally.

Picard identifies the batlike creature they encounter on Celtris III as a Lynar. How would Picard know the name of an animal on a planet in Cardassian space? Do the Cardassians send the Federation information on the interesting Flora and Fauna of their various planets, moons and asteroids?

Do the Cardassians have another way down or do they use the same tunnel system?

In Bloodlines, Picard asks Jason Vigo why he doesn't use an "anti-gravity harness" when spelunking. So why don't Picard and company use anti-gravity harnesses when scaling the rockface?

Was it just me or did the pronunciation of Admiral Nechayev's name change throughout the show?

Whoa, the WORST one, Keith? Wow. For Picard's torture, his determination not to be broken, his statement to Madred about the pointlessness of torture, and his words to Troi at the end of part II, it was one of the best, IMHO. But hey, to each their own.

Given the problems that Jellico has and will have with Riker, why didn't he request that his first officer from the Cairo be transferred to the Enterprise?
Luigi Novi: Presumably, the Cairo warped away after sending over Jellico, and may have other duties during this mission.

Why isn't the Tactical Officer of the Flagship of the Federation familiar with all types of weapons? Worf should know what a metagenic weapon is.
Luigi Novi: Well, he should certainly be familiar with a lot of them, but he can't be a walking encyclopedia like Data, so it's not impossible for him to be unfamiliar with one or two. If this weapon was outlawed, as Crusher and Picard mention in the shuttle, and there hasn't been any concrete threat of it in Starfleet-Cardassian relations, esp. if Worf's job is to be up to date on weapons that are in danger of being used.

And btw, EXCELLENT nits, otherwise!

I know a lot of people put this story on their Best Of lists, but I can't stand it.

Presumably, the Cairo warped away after sending over Jellico
Crew of the Cairo: Quick! Let's get out of here before he comes back!

Personally I thought that Cabbagehead moment in the shuttle was bad writing. Worf the warrior had never heard of these things, but Dr. Crusher had? I would have have expected her to be the designated cabbagehead. (Although that too, could be nitpicked.)

And thanks for the compliment.

Oh, Adam, didn't St. Elsewhere do a naked butt shot before this? (And Ronny Cox was in that episode as well. Hmmm, you don't think it's a requirement in his contract, do you?)

Yeah. Donald mooned Ronny Cox's character.

Frank Abetamarco, who wrote this episode, was a producer on "Cagney and Lacey." Does anyone know why he did not stay into the seventh season?
The naked butt shot on "St. Elsewhere" lasted about half a second before the final "Executive Producer" credit was superimposed over it.

The local news sports report did a naked butt shot last night. They, ummm... err... covered? -- yeah, that's it! Covered! -- the streaker at Wimbledon, including a butt shot.

That reminds me of a story done on the local news waaaaaaaaaaaay back in the early '80s.

A woman had gone on the Mariner team bus and had them sign her bare bottom. The news showed a pic of her bottom covering it with a thin, black, horizontal line. My mom wondered what the point of the line was, cause you could still see, at least, 90% of her butt.

Maybe if they had used a vertical line to cover the crack...

That's the idea that butt cheeks are OK but the anus is not OK to show. It's the same reason that MTV will show girls in thongs on spring break but as they are shaking it the blur will appear and disappear depending on the position the girl is in, it depends on how opened her cheeks are and what you can see. I could go on for some time about this (espicaly being that I am a part time nudist) but this is not the place. Hmmmmmmm perhaps we need a board to discuss cultural attitudes about nudity and the human body?

As for the nit about a new tactical and medical officer, at one point Mean Ol' Captain Jellico said that he had to talk to the new security chief.

Granted, I'm not actually in the military (but, then, neither are our heroes in Starfleet, wink, wink!), but Jellico wants his four-shift thing implemented by, what was it, that evening or something? Over the whole ship? With loads and loads of people on board? That would take a lot of organising. (Where I work, it's considered a rush if a single timetable aspect is changed within a few days. People have to come from somewhere. Are there really enough spare people on the Enterprise to make up a fourth shift to fully operate the ship? And if there are, what have they been doing all this time?)

The 4 shift thing would not require more people just a major restructureing of the week. Presumably to have the same number of people on each position as normaly needed you'd have to break up the week with people working 2 shifts in a row on some days and not on others.

Frankly speaking, I'm surprised about the amount of suggested nude scenes in STTNG. It appears that STTNG is turning into NYPD Blue!

Nope, not even close - no butt shots on NextGen as far as I know.

Really, given the show was all about attractive adults in a confined space, I think they were remarkably tasteful on the whole (Troi and the bunny suit being the glaring exception.)

Why all the talk of butts regarding this episode? IIRC, this episode doesn't have any glimpses of anyone's bare botty department. (I think it was part 2 which had Picard's bare moon on show. Barely.)

OOPS yer right! I forgot that scene was in pt. 2!

In one of these parts, (pt1 or pt2) Data is wearing red instead of yellow. It happens after Riker is removed from duty. Is Data the new first officer? If so, that creates a nit in Phil's book on "Number of promotions for Data"

Well, it's not really a promotion. More like a transfer. Data is still a lieutenant commander.

Why didn't Picard, Crusher & Worf have emergency transporter transponders attached to their bodies just in case of trouble? Especially when they found out the whole thing was a trap. (I know---short show syndrome)

I found that the Enterprise crew's behavior was indeed "whiny". The point is, whoever is Captain..you must obey him...unless he orders something unrational. None of Jellico's orders were unrational. (With the exception of Troi's uniform change )

They did obey him, except for Riker. They are fully entitaled to b*tch about anything they want behind his back.

True...however, If Jellico ever got wind of their complaints, it may be interpreted as insubordination.

Why? Grousing about the "Old Man" is a time honored military tradition, that probably predates Caesar.

Hi there,

Just watched Star Trek V and asked myself why Picard, Crusher, and Whorf needed a rock-climbing gear, while Spock was able to fly around El Capitan in Yosemite with his "rocket" boots?
At least it's not as dangerous as using ropes and other oldfashioned equipment, and in Picard's days such a flying equipment should be really small, even allow walking with it.

Maybe it would have shown up on Cardassian sensors. Kind of like attaching rockets to a submarine.

>>True...however, If Jellico ever got wind of their complaints, it may be interpreted as insubordination.

If one person does it, it's insubordination.

If everyone does it, it's a bad captain.

If the first officer (been there for years) does it, who do you think the crew will follow?

In the beginning I empathized with the ENT crew. Here was this demanding guy with a "bad attitude" mucking around with a crew that funtioned well.

Then I watched it again some years ago and it was a completely different experience as I was older I saw it from Jellico's perspective and was very annoyed with Riker and the crew of the D.

Here this man is in command. War is virtually inevitable within days and the D is going to be one of the first targets. What's on his mind? Seeing to it that his ship and crew are prepared and have the best chance of survival.

And all they can do is whine and sulk like a gang of petulant kids about all the "hard work" Geordi says, "He's just not giving us the time we need" If completely unbiased Data says it's an attainable goal, then it is. Period. Shut up and do your job.

Deanna all in a huff in the ready room about his attitude. He really HAS no time for a honeymoon with the crew right now, considering they might well be floating in vacuum in a couple of days. He might have been a stickler for regs, but a perfectly friendly guy when the heat's off. Troi is also ticked that he might not want her prancing the bridge in her 24th century streetwalker outfits. How terrible for her.

They had differing styles. Riker likes to build consensus. Jellico takes advice, but his command is HIS command. That's that. But Riker couldn't even seem to be bothered to follow his orders, which he didn't without arm twisting from Jellico which should NOT have been necessary. His job is to see that the Captain's orders are carried out as quickly and efficiently as possible. When Jellico wanted to shift to a different rotation schedule Riker should have pointed out possible schedule problems IN THE BEGINNING. Made his POV clear then waited for the final decision. Once Jellico made his choice it's up to RIKER to quiet the whining dept. heads and get delta shift up and running when scheduled. Period.

What did he do instead? Jellico gives the order and Riker does NOTHING...for HOURS. Only when directly asked by Jellico does he go into all the difficulties involved, then has the unmitigated gall to get huffy with Jellico when Jellico is ticked that his order wasn't followed when Riker should really have apologized.

And let's not even discuss Riker...a seasoned officer and grown man...going to Picard basically saying, "The new Captain guy is a real, real meanie. Can you talk to him and make him be nice...pleeeease." I'm surprised his lower lip didn't quiver at some point.

But ultimately it serves to be another set up for "bad guy" Jellico telling Picard that the D is his ship now when that is how Picard should have ended the talk with Riker. "Be a grown up, Wil."

Really, since Starfleet is military and one knows from what direction the orders flow, they should simply defer to that hierarchy until they have time for that honeymoon

All valid points, George.

If the crew wants to complain about Jellico amongst themselves, that's fine... AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T INTEFERE WITH SHIP'S FUNCTION. As I said earlier, complaining about the CO probably pre-dates Caesar.

But, such complaints should not affect performance in any way.

Heres a better question...does Starfleet have special commando units like SEALS or a Delta Force? (I'm not including Section 31...thats more like a CIA)

Like the MACO's ;) ?

To bad they didn't have 'em on the other series. They would have been perfect for this type of mission.

What I don't get is, with the tech starfleet has, why don't ground troops have personal shields, phasing devices (so they can walk through walls and shots go through em etc), body armor that can allow them to take several hits and still be in fighting condition etc? Woulden't it make more sence to equip your soliders this way if you're able to?

phasing devices (so they can walk through walls and shots go through em etc)
Besides the illegal, & therefore secret, cloaking device that was part of the Pegasus (& at this point probably deemed a failure by any who knew of it) where would they get these devices? To the best of my memory the only other time where there was anything that allowed someone to walk through walls was the accident in The Next Phase & that involved Romulan tech.

George H. Daley Jr.: He really HAS no time for a honeymoon with the crew right now, considering they might well be floating in vacuum in a couple of days.

Marka: While I totally agree with you on each and every point considering Riker, I still think Jellico could have done better. If he's such a good leader, what happened to motivating his crew? It doesn't really have to take any time at all. Remember Picard in All Good Things? He asked his 'new' crew from the past for "the leap of faith" (I believe these are the words he used). It was one sentence, which made the bridge crew rush to comply with orders that must have seemed to them far more irrational than those of Jellico.

Chris Booton (Cbooton): why don't ground troops have personal shields, phasing devices (so they can walk through walls and shots go through em etc), body armor...

Marka: I don't think there was such thing as personal shields at the time. It's Borg technology that has remained a mystery, or am I mistaken?

The Animated Series had some form of environmental force field.

Earlier this season Worf rigged up a temporary personal force field in A Fistful Of Datas & later this season in Timescape Picard, Troi & Geordi had somekinda device that protected them from the temporal anomolies.

I think only Worf's functioned truly like a force field should, but IIRC that was a short-lived act of desperation.

True, he made it from his commbadge and it only lasted a few gun shots. Then again, these were the holographic shots. Then again, the safety protocoles were offline...

I don't recall any personal field from TAS either. Which episode?

Several. Rather than a space suit the crew would be surrounded with somekinda environmental field when they went into a hostile environment. (Guess it was easier for the animators that way.) It may have been powered by a belt.

Personal forcefields exist. Fajo had one in The Most Toys. But to anti-nit the question of why SF crewmen don't have them in combat, perhaps they're just too expensive to produce en masses, and Fajo, who was rich from his various thefts, could afford the one.

George H. Daley Jr.: Here this man is in command. War is virtually inevitable within days and the D is going to be one of the first targets. What's on his mind? Seeing to it that his ship and crew are prepared and have the best chance of survival.
Luigi Novi: Perhaps this is subjective, but what the episode made clear to me was that that wasn’t merely what he was doing; he was making arbitrary changes to ship functions, like the number of duty shifts, not because they were necessary, but because they part of his personal tastes/usual habits. If the flagship of the Federation, which has saved the Earth from the Borg, and racked up all manner of other accomplishments, has functioned so well with three duty shifts, then insisting on four, for example, without any reason given from Jellico, may be unwise, particularly if it means that the crew will not be operating within the normal routine that they used to, and in which they have thus far excelled.

George H. Daley Jr.: And all they can do is whine and sulk like a gang of petulant kids about all the "hard work" Geordi says, "He's just not giving us the time we need"
Luigi Novi: That is not whining or sulking. It is a legitimate problem he brought to Jellico’s attention, which he was right to do.

George H. Daley Jr.: If completely unbiased Data says it's an attainable goal, then it is. Period. Shut up and do your job.
Luigi Novi: Except that Geordi mentioned that it could only be done if every member of Engineering worked around the clock for two days, a point that Data did not dispute. Forcing your crew to work 48 hours without sleep may be within the purview of a commander in times of crisis when it’s necessary, but it may jeopardize the quality of their work.

George H. Daley Jr.: Deanna all in a huff in the ready room about his attitude.
Luigi Novi: She did not get “in a huff,” and did not say anything about his “attitude.” She expressed to him her concerns about crew morale. That’s her job. Jellico merely dismissed her.

George H. Daley Jr.: Troi is also ticked that he might not want her prancing the bridge in her 24th century streetwalker outfits. How terrible for her.
Luigi Novi: She did not get “ticked.” Her facial expression may have indicated that she would’ve preferred not having to do this, but she acted professionally by following his order without complaint. She must’ve even realized that she agreed with his sentiment, because she continued to wear that uniform for the rest of the series, except for Realm of Fear. Are you under the impression that every member of the military loves every order given to him/her by a c.o., and never expresses even slight displeasure with it with their facial expression?

George H. Daley Jr.: When Jellico wanted to shift to a different rotation schedule Riker should have pointed out possible schedule problems IN THE BEGINNING.
Luigi Novi: He might not have been able to do so because the problems did not become evident until after he began implementing the change. Indeed, he told Jellico right after the ceremony in Ten Forward that the department heads he spoke to told him about the severe problems that would be caused, which was obviously after Jellico gave the order for the shift change. Therefore, Riker could not have mentioned this at the time the order was given.

George H. Daley Jr.: What did he do instead? Jellico gives the order and Riker does NOTHING...for HOURS.
Luigi Novi: Untrue. Again, Riker began implementing the change, and ran into the severe problems voiced by the department heads. When Jellico followed-up on the order, Riker told him what the status of the change was. That does not mean that he did “nothing.”

George H. Daley Jr.: Only when directly asked by Jellico does he go into all the difficulties involved, then has the unmitigated gall to get huffy with Jellico when Jellico is ticked that his order wasn't followed when Riker should really have apologized.
Luigi Novi: Riker may not have gone into the difficulties before because he was hoping he’d be able to get it done without presenting problems with the matter to Jellico, and that he’d get it done before Jellico asked about it. Unfortunately, Jellico checked up on his progress before he could completely implement the change.

And nowhere in the scene did I see Riker get “huffy.” Where was this?

George H. Daley Jr.: And let's not even discuss Riker...a seasoned officer and grown man...going to Picard basically saying, "The new Captain guy is a real, real meanie. Can you talk to him and make him be nice...pleeeease."
Luigi Novi: Riker never said anything of the sort. He brought legitimate problems with Jellico’s command to Picard. He did not mention anything about him being a “meanie” or asking Picard to “make him be nice.” This is a Straw Man argument.

Back to the George H.Daley Jr./Luigi Novi debates...
I agree with George in saying that I felt Troi was annoyed that Jelico was telling her how to dress. Women don't usually like it when someone tells them what to wear or not wear, or what they're wearing makes them look fat/frumpy/unprofessional.

I didn't see too much (if any) incidents of the crew accepting Jelico's orders without some amount of back-talk or resistance. They seemed to question them non-stop, with the exception of Data.

Riker is so annoyed that Jelico has replaced Picard (for all he knows, permanently), that he's relieved of duty. Don't his friendships with Data, Geordi, and Troi count for something? Shouldn't he watch his step or find himself transferred off to a completely new ship, cut off not only from Picard, Worf, and Bev, but Data, Troi, Geordi, and the the rest of the Enterprise crew?

And George is right in that Riker was *going to* complain to Picard about Jelico, but he never had a chance. Picard was too exhausted from his training, so Riker kept his complaints to himself. I believe it was Geordie who asked Riker if he could do something about Jelico, and Riker then went in search of Picard.

I agree with George in saying that I felt Troi was annoyed that Jelico was telling her how to dress. Women don't usually like it when someone tells them what to wear or not wear, or what they're wearing makes them look fat/frumpy/unprofessional.
I agreed that Troi was a bit displeased at the order too. But she did not get visibly "ticked." She followed the order professionally.

And since when do 21st century Earth cultural mores regarding men telling women how to dress pertain a 21st century officer on a starship who was raised on Betazed?

I didn't see too much (if any) incidents of the crew accepting Jelico's orders without some amount of back-talk or resistance. They seemed to question them non-stop, with the exception of Data.
The "back-talk" or "resistance" you mention was merely the legitimate logistical problems the crew voiced about implementing Jellico's changes, which is their job to do. As I recall, Riker spoke to Jellico of the difficulties he was having in changing the duty shifts exactly once, and Geordi opined to Jellico how hard it would be to make the changes in Engineering Jellico wanted exactly once. This hardly seems like "non-stop."

Riker is so annoyed that Jelico has replaced Picard (for all he knows, permanently), that he's relieved of duty.
Riker is relieved of duty for insubordination. Not for being "annoyed that Jellico has replaced Picard."

And George is right in that Riker was *going to* complain to Picard about Jelico, but he never had a chance.
I never stated that Riker wasn't complaining to Picard. Only in the way George characterized how Riker voiced his concerns.

Luigi - And since when do 21st century Earth cultural mores regarding men telling women how to dress pertain a 21st century officer
Well since it's the same century... ;-)

Luigi;Riker is relieved of duty for insubordination...
Yes, he was, but he was clearly upset from the very beginning that Picard was replaced by Jelico. There isn't a single instance of complete acceptance of the situation on Riker's part, or any form of a welcoming attitude towards Jelico, and his blunt words with Jelico in his quarters, in Part 2, simply voiced what he was thinking all the way to the beginning of this episode.

Complete acceptance is illustrated by the fact that he follows Jellico's orders when Jellico gives them, which is what Riker is supposed to do. He and Geordi voice difficulties over the changes Jellico wants, but do not disobey the orders to implement them. Beyond that, I'm not sure how you think a "welcoming attitude" could be conveyed.

His words toward Jellico in his quarters conveyed the conclusion he had made about Jellico. There is no evidence that he was thinking this when Jellico first stepped off the transporter pad on the Enterprise, nor have you provided any.

The episode clearly intended us to understand that Jellico was arbitrary and unyielding in his assmilation into the Enterprise, and it succeeded in conveying that understanding.

Speaking as a viewer of this episode, based on just sitting there and watching it, here's what I observed;

1. Picard reliquishes command and Riker fumes during the ceremony, while Troi looks at the floor like she's at a funeral.
2. Geordi wonders 'how permenant this will be'.
3. Riker tells Jelico about the difficulties in altering shifts from three to four.
4. Riker and Data reveal the difficulties in altering the 'transfer interface'.
5. Geordi questions the improvement of the warp coil efficiency.
6. Troi visits Jelico in the Ready Room to go over the duty roster, but she wants to talk about how the crew is having trouble adjusting to Jelico's way of thinking.
7. Geordi complains vehemently in the corridor to Riker, giving him a laundry list of all the things Jelico wants changed, and the lack of time to accomplish them, and even asks Riker to get help from Picard.
8. Troi questions Jelico's tactic of making Gul Lemec wait for over an hour.
Multiple times Riker looks around wide-eyed and incredulous after receiving an order as if to say, "What the--??!! I can't believe he just gave that order!!" Watch his expressions-- it happens again and again.
And this is all within the first episode!
Part 2;
9. Gul lemec leaves, and Riker rises to his feet as if he was going to assault Jelico. Instead, he raises his voice when Jelico refuses to rescue Picard, forcing Jelico to relieve Riker of duty.
10. Beverly says she'll have sickbay prepped 'for the casualties you're about to send me'.
11. Riker and Jelico have their final confrontation in Riker's quarters.

And THAT is what I mean by a lack of a 'welcoming attitude'. We're all long-time viewers here, and know Picard will be back, but new viewers or casual viewers will see a bunch of whining and resistance to an outsider. Sure, voice your problems, but I really think the writers went overboard with this insubordinate atmosphere on the part of Riker and the crew. Jelico knew what he was doing in the end; he didn't screw things up, so Riker's impression that Jelico wasn't a good captain is just plain false. He got the job done, and there wasn't a battle sending casualties to sickbay.

When I said Riker was clearly upset from the very beginning, I should have pointed out that he questioned Admiral Neychev (or whatever her name was) about replacing Picard with Jelico. He was also annoyed at being put on the spot in front of Picard regarding altering shifts, so that's what I meant from the beginning, and not the transporter room first meeting.

What did you expect Riker to do?

Run up to Jellico in the transporter room and give him a big hug and a kiss on the cheek?

1-2. Your descriptions of Riker and Troi’s demeanor is subjective. I saw no “fuming” or “funerary” attitude. Perceptions vary, I guess. Geordi’s comment, as I recall, was made in a private moment, not within earshot of Jellico.

3-8 Officers presenting legitimate problems to their superiors regarding the orders the captain has given them, and question their validity. It’s their job to do this, and has nothing to do with a “welcoming” attitude, or for that matter, any attitude at all.

9. Granted. Riker should’ve not behaved this way, even if to disagree with Jellico. While Riker’s latter explanation that it was his job to point out decisions on Jellico’s part that might be wrong, the tone and manner in which he did so was deserving of a relief of duty.

10. I saw this as Beverly’s dark-humored resignation to the crisis she’s afraid is going to develop. I don’t see how this was disrespectful of Jellico, let alone “not welcoming”, especially since she’s had her hands full in sickbay during crises under Picard.

11. Mixed. Riker could’ve had some legit points to make if he confined himself to issues 1-8. However, issue #9 still stands.

All in all, however, most of the things you point out seem like the legitimate airing of problems that a crew is supposed to conduct. Only 9 stands out as an exception, and 11 is mostly a review of the previous 10, including 9.

In any case, I’m fascinated to see how different viewers perceive these things differently.

To each their own, Will.

Anyone that thinks this is the worst episode ever had never seen "Spocks Brain" "Night Terrors" "Things Past" "Tattoo" or most all of the episodes of "Enterprise".

All very interesting points Will and Luigi. It is true, Executive Officers (XOs) are meant to hear grievences from department heads, ie the Cheif Engineer, Cheif Medical Officer... and relay them to the Commanding Officer (CO) as per the chain of command (where have I heard that before). However, although I agree with Will that there wasn't much of a welcoming attitude, I feel that most of the complaining is primarily due to complacency of the crew. They were used to Picard and when they were asked to change they kicked-and-screamed, which makes me think that the Flagship's crew isn't all that good.

I think Luigi is just playing **** here.

It's quite obvious that the Enterprise crew in this episode acted like a bunch of babies!

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Just a note: Marina Sirtis and Jonathan Frakes said at the convention that the reason the producers introduced Captain Jellico (Ronny Cox) is because Patrick Stewart's contract was expiring and he hadn't made any type of commitment yet as to whether or not he was staying on the show. So...if he didn't sign it before it expired, the producers would've killed off Picard and left Jellico in command.

LUIGI NOVI, on Monday, October 23, 2006, you said "I saw this as Beverly’s dark-humored resignation to the crisis she’s afraid is going to develop. I don’t see how this was disrespectful of Jellico, let alone “not welcoming”, especially since she’s had her hands full in sickbay during crises under Picard."

It's all in the wording. If she were prepping sickbay "for possible casualties" it would be acceptable, but doing it "for the casualties you're about to send me" is too much attitude. She resents his decision and is letting him know pretty clearly that she blames him personally for any casualties that may result.

>>>By D.W. March on Thursday, March 23, 2000 - 5:22 pm:
My question is, why didn't they just launch a missile at it? The Maquis have these super missiles and so do the Cardassians. Seemingly, these things can fly cloaked and blow things up quite well, if Dreadnaught is any indication. So why not use one of those instead? They're much more expendable. Would the Federation object to using a cloaking device on them? It's not like that would be any less illegal than sending commandos!<<<

Using a cloaking device would be breaking the treaty the Federation has with the Romulans. If I understand the terms of the treaty even building a cloaking device would be illegal.
A commando mission will only annoy the Cardassians, a cloaked missile will annoy both the Cardassians and Romulans. Plus the Romulans/Cardassians will make sure everyone else is aware that the Federation will ignore treaties with other powers when they feel like it.
This would turn a small dispute into a far larger one.

>>>By Josh G. on Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 2:35 pm:
I find the crew's reaction to Jellico a little over-the-top. All the scenes on the Enterprise seem to consist of Geordi and others whining about Jellico's different way of doing things. However, this IS a military vessel, and it IS being sent on an important, perilous mission.<<<

According to the Great Bird Enterprise isn't a military ship...even if it IS used and run like one. However I do agree that their reactions are a little to much. They don't come across as professinal officers, but as whiny children who've been told to stop playing and do their homework.

The worst thing about their complaining isn't that they are doing it - they could be justifyed in discussing problems with fellow members of the command staff - but that they seem to feel it is perfectly OK for them to hold such conversations in public. They are senior officers, they are meant to back the captain up not undermine his authority by complaining about him where passing crewmen can overhear.

>>>Did Starfleet even send replacements to the Enterprise for the Chief Medical Officer and Tactical Officer? <<<

Why? Crusher and Worf may be head of their respective departments, but they are not the sole officers in them. Whoever was their number two would step into their place while they were away. Worf, for example, was Tasha Yars number two until she was killed when he assumed her position as tactical officer and security chief.

>>>By Keith Alan Morgan (Kmorgan) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 4:48 am:
Given the problems that Jellico has and will have with Riker, why didn't he request that his first officer from the Cairo be transferred to the Enterprise? <<<

The Cairo's first officer is probably commanding the ship.


Nit; The way Picard and co absail down the cliff needs some consideration. My understanding is that modern special forces teams keep the end of the rope in a small bag while absailing. This means that the rope isn't dangling down to alert anyone below them. Picard, however, just throws the entire length of rope down the cliff giving anyone passing below a chance to see the rope and sound the alarm.

Is there some reason Picard didn't ask the Klingons for a cloaked ship for this mission?

While Riker & La Forge are walking in the ship's hallway, talking (ranting) about Jelico's changes, one of the hall lights flickers. It's in the lower right.

I always felt when they showed Jellico that they explained why the federation wasn't invaded a long time ago. He is clearly more into the military way of thinking whilst Picard is more into diplomacy and science. He was clearly gearing up the Enterprise for battle and would doubtless have been far more competent in any normal space battle. He probably wouldn't wait ages before returning fire.

I didn't think his negotiation tactics were to bad. Granted they were more abrasive than what we;re used to but considering every race pushes the federation around it was quite refreshing to see the Cardassian put in his place when Jellico stormed out.

As for the debate over whether the crew of the Enterpise were whiney or Jellico to unreasonable take the engineering example. He wants the engine super efficient and Geordie already has one of the best efficiencies in the fleet and yes it could be done but. Geordie said they would have to work double shifts (old shifts not new as Geordie wouldn't be used to the changeover) that's 16 hours working 8 hours off, over several days that takes a lot out of you. I'd rather not have an exhausted team working on a reactor mistakes on that could be catastrophic. Geordie also said they'd have to work double before a third of all engineers were transferred to security who knows what he's have to do with them gone. Transferring engineers to security is again not wise. On current ships about two thirds of all personnel tend to be technical they are needed for a reason. The engineers wouldn't necessarily have the training or competence. The last thing anyone needs before a battle if for the engineering to be undermanned and exhausted, security full of weak links and the whole crew trying to get used to a new shift pattern and messed up sleep cycles.

Put simply I agree with most of the changes he made and once they had been made and with everyone settled in he would probably have shown to be a good captain. We just weren't shown that side of him.

I believe the term is "shades of gray." Jellico is not a mustache twirling bad guy but that doesn't mean that he was right either. Being a competent commander doesn't preclude someone from being an autocratic jerk who might have done well to try and adapt himself to a new command rather than try and force 1000 people to suddenly change the way they've been doing things successfully for the past 6 years on the eve of what may be a giant battle.

I get the feeling that if Gene Roddenberry had been still alive and calling the shots, he would have taken one look at this script and fed it into a paper shredder with the words: "This is not Star Trek!" And he would have been right. Sadly, by this time, the Great Bird was no longer around to protect his creation from those who would corrupt it (yes, Berman, I'm talking about you).

In this episode, Starfleet engages in what could only be called a terrorist attack. They send people into a sovereign nation to blow up a building. This is Starfleet, not Al Quaeda!

The Cardassians were right to call Picard a terrorist, because, for all intents and purposes, he WAS! He couldn't be called a POW because, at this time, the Federation and the Cardassians were NOT at war. Tensions were high, yes, but no formal declaration of war had been issued by either side.

Poor Gene, his biggest mistake was trusting Berman.

"Poor Gene, his biggest mistake was trusting Berman." Tim McCree

Yep, I sure do agree with that statement!

Also, Tim, did you happen to read what I said about "Gambit" and it also not being "real" Trek? I wonder what you would think of it, now that you have said what you thought of this episode (2-parter).

However, Brian F. liked it, and he's certainly entitled to that opinion. But I sure didn't, and I hope others avoid it the way I now do!

Anyway, I think the best thing about "C.O.C." was that Picard refused to give in and submit to Gul Madred's methods of making him crack and reveal something that he himself had no knowledge of to begin with.

Four of the greatest words in TNG history, in my opinion: "There...Are...FOUR...LIGHTS!!!!"

All right, you tell him, Jean-Luc, yeah!!

Oh I can't fault Patrick Stewart's performance, he did an excellent job.

However, at the end, Picard should have marched right up to Admiral B*tch and said: "We had no right to be there! It's Cardassian terratory!"

Gene Roddenberry's Starfleet was about exploring and finding new worlds, not acting like Al Quaeda.

Yeah, I saw your post about Gambit. Sad how Berman and his cronies all laughed at Gene. Yet, without him, they would have all been nobodies. It was HIS show that gave them all their start, and they owe him everything.

Of course, Berman ended up bringing Trek to the brink of ruin.

---

quote:

Tim McCree: In this episode, Starfleet engages in what could only be called a terrorist attack. They send people into a sovereign nation to blow up a building. This is Starfleet, not Al Quaeda!

---

America has bombed facilities in other countries that it considered to be a threat to it, and I wouldn't consider those "terrorist attacks".

Okay, I conceed that there is a VERY thin line between special operations and terrorism. I guess the big difference is that Special Ops do not indiscriminatelt target civilians.

That being said, I stand by my statement that Gene would never have allowed this episode to be made. The Starfleet he created was NOT a military organization (they fought only when all other options had failed). It's primary duty was exploration and scientific discovery.

However, once Gene was gone, Starfleet was pushed back into the 20th Century. In this story, you could easily say that Starfleet was run by George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld!

The Starfleet he created was NOT a military organization (they fought only when all other options had failed).

Technically, that's when governments are supposed to use the military.

Also I disagree that Starfleet was not created to be a military operation. It just has too many military aspects to have started as an exploration & scientific organization. (Yes, I do know that later on Gene claimed Starfleet wasn't military, but I think that was a Retcon on his part.)

In Classic Trek it felt like a military organization that had branched into exploration & science.

NextGen started off with more emphasis on science & exploration, but it still had military aspects which came more to the front as more & more enemies started to come along, particularly the Borg.

Suffice to say, I prefer Part Two over Part One. What Tim and I said above a few years ago really proves that for me.

This one just didn't sit well with me for some reason. And I didn't say this before, but I really didn't like Jellico at all, the reasons for that already having been discussed further up the board. And the actor Ronny Cox has primarily portrayed evil villains in nearly everything he's done. (OCP Vice President Dick Jones in the ORIGINAL "Robocop" and Mars dictator Vilos Cohaagen in the ORIGINAL "Total Recall" both immediately come to mind.) And for some reason, Cox portrayed Jellico as walking and standing awkwardly, like he had really poor posture for some reason. That sure was weird, I thought!

However, I did like Gul Lemec, I just thought he was cool. And actor John Durbin also played Ssestar, the leader of the Selay delegation in "Lonely Among Us", as well as Traidy the Finnean in DS9's "A Simple Investigation" and finally, a Telsian miner in VGR's "Critical Care". Lemec was one of my all-time favorite Cardassian characters, along with the first one we ever saw, Gul Macet from "The Wounded", who in non-canon Trek, was Dukat's cousin, which explained why they resembled each other so much. Real-life reason: they were both played by Marc Alaimo.

And I still agree with what Tim said about what Berman did to Starfleet and the Federation. And how much Trek in general changed for the worse. And I still thoroughly despise what the franchise eventually became. That's just the way I see it, though!

In classic Trek it was actually stated several times that Starfleet was a military organisation Kirk calls himself a soldier too. It was only in next gen when he suddenly made the Federation into his 80s new age idealised version.


And as Starfleet is the Federation's only defence force it surely is the military by default.

Also I've changed my mind on Jelico, I've really tried to like him but the more times I watch it the worse the crew changes come off as.

Giving the engineering crew a job where they all have to work 48 hours without sleep then transferring a 3rd of them to a different department is stupid. Doubly so on the eve of battle, engineering would be barely functioning if they'd had a battle.

And the engineers in security would be useless. Worf would barely be able to teach them anything in a few days.

After the Transfer of Command ceremony, Picard is discussing the mission with Jellico. In some shots it looks like Patrick Stewart is wearing a bald cap.

I think it's just the lighting, though.