This was one of the best Next Gen episodes that featured Troi as the main character. Solid and it showed the way Troi should have been treated throughout the entire series. Two points about the Next Gen nitpickers guide and this episode. First, it said that(actually it said it in Timescape) that Troi was supposed to be escorting three Romulans to freedom, not collecting info. on Romulan engineering. Well, granted she's a counselor, but she is a Starfleet officer. It would have been prudent of her to collect as much intelligence as she could. Also, it mentioned how Troi was a counselor and why would she have the codes to the gravitic sensor nets? I believe that Troi is a command school graduate and she is the daughter of a powerful Betazed head of the fifth house who is a Federation ambassador. Those two things combined might have led her to pick the codes up. I know the second point is a stretch.

Who performed the surgery on Troi? I'm presuming it's surgery anyway...I should think that they would need to to avoid scanners or whatever.

When the Romulan ship cloaked the lights did not dim like on other ships, such as the Defiant (which used a Romulan cloak) and Klingon ships. Cloaks use lots of power, so I doubt that it is the type of cloak.

They'll clear the debris field in 27 minutes? That big a field for such a tiny freighter? They must be moving very very slow.

Did Troi set up that disruptor/transporter beam? If not her who did?

I don't see how this little operation "paved the way" for future rescue operations. I doubt that they could get away with that again.

Alfonso: I dunno. Even granted that Troi felt the need to pick up esoteric engineering details, how did she then acquire the expertise to know what she had? I mean, this is a woman who had to be coached to recognize a warp core breach.

I find it amusing that when N'vek and Troi are examining the bodies in stasis, N'vek says "The less you know about this mission, the better."

What's the next line? Troi asking about the mission.

(I'm not saying it doesn't make sense because I can easily believe that she'd be curious but those are just two fun lines to have together.)

Why didn't the underground movement just simply ASK Troi to volunteer and do this mission? The underground Romulan COULD HAVE brought along some authorized message from Spock and shown it to her. Or better yet, ask Spock to ask Troi to volunteer. But noooo, they commit some very serious crimes against her....
abduction and rape. If I were Troi, I would not be happy! (BTW..I'm sure she didn't take off that bunny-wunny suit off while unconscious)

Um...no one raped Troi.

The how did Troi get out of the bunny-wunny suit and into the Romulan outfit? The episode starts with her asleep...and her just waking up. When she turns on the lights, she is in the Romulan outfit. Also, she recalls that the Romulan used a hypospray to knock her out & abduct her. The answer is clear...she was raped!

Well, just because the Romulans changed her clothing, doesn't mean they raped her.

It just means they got to see her naked, the lucky @#$#!@#!@$#!

I agree with you about the "lucky @#$#!@#!@$#!" part.

However, who removed the bunny-wunny suit if Troi wasn't raped and she was asleep? I don't recall the Romulan saying anything about obtaining the Ferengi clothes remover beam as seen in "Menage A Troi"

In order for it to be rape someone would have to have had sexual intercourse with her while they were changing her cloths. Just because you take someone's clothing off without their permission doesn't nessessarily have anything to do with rape, or Emergency Room doctors have some serious explaining to do.

John, where do you get some of these things from? The Romulans CHANGED HER CLOTHES. That has nothing to do with "rape."

I dunno about that. I think it's a question of semantics- "rape" might not apply, but I think that "sexual assault" certainly might. Voyeurism is a crime under sexual assault laws, so while what happened to Troi wasn't really voyeurism per se, it might fall under the same category.

It would only be a sexual assault if it served a sexual purpose. There is no indication that a Romulan got his/her jollies out of removing her clothing or seeing her naked.

Especially if they were too busy changing her clothes for the benefit of the mission.

I believe there's a difference from when a doctor taking off your clothes without you knowing it & a complete stranger taking off your clothes without you knowing it. One serves a medical purpose, the other does not.
Also, let me remind you that Troi did not volunteer to change her wardrobe, it was removed from her involuntarily. (no harsh feelings, just trying to get my point across)

I must add that if I were Troi, I'd be insulted about what may (or may not) have happened and sent a formal complaint to Vulcan saying, "Find another peon to do your bidding! I will not allow myself to be treated in this manner!"

Yes, they removed her clothing without permission... while certainly a violation, that doesn't make it rape.

Or are you suggesting that every parent who forceably removes her child's clothing for a bath is raping the child?

Darth--No, Parents removing clothes from children for a bath is not rape. That's because they're too little to do it themselves.

Let me close the subject by saying the Romulan defector violated Troi's Civil Rights by what he did to her.

Oh, for heaven's sake, John A., the woman's a mature adult! If you truly respect women as much as you say you do, please allow us the dignity of deciding what constitutes an invasion of our bodies, OK?

Even if they did violate Troi's rights, I'm pretty sure she can tell the difference between a violation and a necessary evil...or at least the lesser of two evils.
Let's try the reverse scenario: suppose female aliens have kidnaped Riker. In the course of altering his entire identity - species even - and informing him he has no choice but to participate in a mind-blowingly dangerous mission for which he's not even half-prepared, they feel the need to change his clothes while he's unconscious.

You honestly think the first thing he's gonna blurt out is "Aaaaahhhh! You saw me NAKED?!"

Fair enough, kerriem. I'll try and not mention rape at Nitcental anymore.

That's not quite what I meant.
I'm sorry to have been so vehement with you, John A.; I know your intentions were good - it's just that they're misplaced. It can be argued that assuming women are fragile, in need of constant protection, is in the end far more harmful than incessant leering.

Of course you can speak up if you feel a female character is being badly treated, please do! Just maybe try and consider the context - and the woman's own reaction to the matter - before your chivalry kicks into overdrive, OK?

Zis is wery, wery Freudian, don't you zhink?

Kerriem--OK. Just call me a "knight in shining armor". I don't believe that chivalry is dead....just rare to find. All is forgiven.

Sir John of the Round Table Lang ;)

PS--In my remark, I said, "chivalry is not dead." I was agreeing with you that at times my chivalry does kick into overdrive whenever women seem to need help. It's a guy thing.

erm..Actually, I said, "I don't believe chivalry is dead"...but I think you got my point. Forgive me. I have a headache.

Hate to re-start the thread but I was away for the weekend and I'm back now.

Let me close the subject by saying the Romulan defector violated Troi's Civil Rights by what he did to her.

They violated her civil rights by kidnapping her, and sergicaly altering her without her permission, and forcing her to participate on a dangerious mission. (remember the whole big where that Romulan tells her she has to cooperate because the Romulan commander will kill her if she doesn't) Taking her cloths off without her permission is so insignifigant next to that it would be like worrying that a person you got into a knock-down, drag-out, bone-breaking fight with messed up your hair.

I think everyone is emphasizing the wrong thing here. Troi was kidnapped, physically (and maybe genetically) altered, had her life put in terrible danger and forced to participate in a complicated operation that could lead to war if she is found out. By comparison, having her clothes changed while she is unconscious is very very minor. A more important question, I think, is how foolish the Romulan conspirators must be, making the whole plan turn on the willingness of a Starfleet officer to help with this very far-fetched plan, that they can't prove is anything but a trick.

One has to remember that Troi is also from Betazed where they apparently don't have a taboo regarding nudity. After all, marriages are conducted in the nude. Perhaps for a Betazoid, it's no different than someone taking off your shoes.

Maybe.

TUE

Things i've learned from this Episode:

1. Romulan commanders are not very happy
2. Troi likes power
3. troi knows her veenereen

Her what?

He meant to say "viinerine," the Romulan food that Commander Toreth offered her on the ship. Ironically, Jayson got it wrong. When Toreth offered it, Troi didn't know what the viinerine was, so she guessed it was one of the dishes in front of her, and got it wrong, Toreth assuming that she was merely being standoffish.

John:I must add that if I were Troi, I'd be insulted about what may (or may not) have happened and sent a formal complaint to Vulcan saying, "Find another peon to do your bidding! I will not allow myself to be treated in this manner!"

Vulcan? Why Vulcan? There's only one Vulcan involved in the Unification movement, Spock, and there's no evidence that he's acting on behalf of the government of Vulcan. (Besides which, isn't Vulcan part of the Federation? What kind of federal alliance is set up so that member states can conduct external diplomacy? Wouldn't that be a federal function?) Also, there's no evidence that Spock personally set this up. Spock's only apparent involvement was to send DeSeve back home to relay the message to rendezvous with a freighter and retrieve M'ret's body; nothing says that Spock knew how M'ret was going to end up on that freighter. A good intelligence operation is compartmentalized to reduce the chance of a single leak blowing the whole thing open.

What's the deal with Troi's behavior-demanding that N'Vek transport Muret and his aids to the Enterprise rather than go to Draken IV? Was she so sick of the Romulan ship that she'd do anything to get off it as fast as she could and didn't care what effect it would have on the mission? Her actions there got N'Vek killed and almost ruined everything. There was no indication that her cover had been blown or anything, so what she did was totally dangerous, dumb, and disgusting. Any thoughts?

If she chose to be on this mission that would be an arguable POV, kinzel, but she was kidnapped, surgically altered against her will, and placed into mortal danger by being drafted into this mission, so she had every right not to be so compliant.

Scott MacDonald (N'Vek) plays Commander Dolim on "Enterprise."

What I don't understand is this only thing - If members of the Unification movement were able to get to Troi (in the territory of Federation), drag her away, make some surgery... why did they need her anyway? They obviously crossed the Neutral Zone without problems.

I don't think anybody's mentioned it, and its not a nit, but I just wanted to say that I thought Commander Toreth was definitely one of the most 3 dimensional adversaries ever featured on Star Trek. Obviously she was completely loyal to the empire, and that's why she couldn't be trusted, but she most certainly was not a blind follower. When she talked about her father, carted away as a dissident...and then later on when she talks about how the military takes the blame for the wars that they are asked to fight, but that Troi's assumed type will be the death of them all...it was just great and I really wish we had seen more of her later on. I don't want to give anything away but if you've ever read (or seen) The Spy Who Came in from the Cold, she reminds me so much of Fiedler, who also seems to be a really decent person all things considered, despite being a 'one of the bad guys'. Sorry to blather, I just thought it was interesting.

yours,
Andy Farley

I believe this is the first time we get to see a Romulan disruptor in action; actually disrupting somebody. I also think successfully transproting somebody from another ship when their cloak is activated occured for the first time here as well, which could have happened much more often in Trek.

I suspect Toreth's future after this episode is very bleak. Which is a shame.

*waves to attract the novel authors*

Scott MacDonald also played a Jem'Hadar, I think the one who was free of the white.

Somehow I feel Ambassador Spock would not approve of Deanna's abduction by the Romulans.

This is Marina's favorite episode.

I believe this episode marked the first appearance of the mercenary race the Corvallans. And just like the Markallians who also debuted in late TNG, we would later see them on DS9.

Hmm, I wonder how viinerine smells, let alone tastes. What other Romulan foods are there? There was the soup from "Unification", I really don't know of any others.

Now, finally after almost six years, Troi is finally being taken seriously as a Starfleet Officer. Of course, it helped when Capt. Jellico asked her to put on the regulation uniform in "Chain of Command". Now, with this being a real display of Troi's knowledge and ability to deal with stressful situations, no wonder it's Marina's favorite episode!

The Corvallans worship a beaver.

What does that mean? Does it have something to do with their appearance, or their behavior?

It has to do with the Oregon State University in Corvallis

Oh I see. I never would have got that!

No prob, Andre... My word associations (football) tend to be offbeat and obscure.

When Troy wakes up at the beginning of the episode, she should have known immediately she was in deep trouble. Her empathic senses should have let her know that she was surrounded by Romulans.

After what happened in Redemption II, I'm surprised when they see "Major Rikal" if they wondered she was another "time travel Romulan daughter," this time Deanna Troi's. :P