Kahless' hair most have been much longer when he made that Bat'leth. About down to his ankles perhaps?

Kahless says, that's it's been so long since he had any food or drink that he didn't notice any difference between real warnog and replicated warnog. However he had been on the Enterprise for a day and had been on Boreth for at least three days. Why did he wait so long to eat or drink anything?

If you clone someone DNA doesn't remember hair length.

I think fungus are highly underrated in the 24th century...
In this episode, upon discovering that Kahless is a clone, Worf utters in deep disappointment and incredulity:
"They grew you in a test-tube like... some kind of fungus!"

Oddly enough, in the Voyager episode "Projections," Neelix refers to the captured Kazon as a "fungus" as well.

Do you see my point?

Mark,

I guess it refers more to the ease which with fungus, esp. mould, grows everywhere if you don't take care - it doesn't require any special treatment.

What I wondered about:

- The smoke detectors don't go off when worffs cabin is full of smoke. Are they specially configured not to react to candles and incense?

- Picard is once again handling discipline strange. Worff neglected his duties in a gross manner, but picard doesn't tell him off. Worff could have gotten lease for his quest or at least a sympathetic listener before neglecting his duties.

- Kahless died 1200 years ago, and they are certain that they have the original knife with his blood on it and a lifelike painting off him? Of course it depends on what stage of development the klingon society was when kahless left, but I found this very doubtful. Comparing this to Jesus, whose time is only 2000 years back, there are so many "real" reliques in europe, that you could make a whole forest of crosses from the wood splinters, and so on. Because reliques were important for the faith of the society in the middle ages, every church wanted to have one. How did the klingons get around this difficulty?

- The legend of the swordmaking is supposed to be secret to the high priests, but worf told them to the youngsters in "Birthright II".

- Is it my eyes, or do the knobbles on the forehead of the returned kahless look very different from the painting on the wall (it looks almost flat to me?)

-If Kahless is the original warrior, why is he dressed in white fur instead of the black armor all klingons wear? Is white reserved for him? Does he not need an armor because he can't be beaten anyway?

- Why do the High priests clone kahless, anyway? I would understand some sect or power-hungry clique, but these high priests have waited for the return of their god as he promised. If I compare that to the catholic church as the offical one, I just can't imagine them cloning Jesus instead of waiting for the return when he thinks its right. Esp. as only the body can be cloned, not the divine soul.

What I found odd is the message of this episode : Don't wait for a real one. A fake clone will do.

Rene,

I thought the message was (once more) along the line of "religion is outdated, now that we have sensors and scanners, no one can pretend to be a god, only people willing to believe and who stop investigating will believe in a god." After all, Worf suffers a spiritual crisis, but when his wish is granted - a vision of kahless - he continues being an overly sceptic; and all the people aboard the enterprise think only of investigating kahless. Noone says " this is religious, science can't answer spiritual questions". They all seem to be convinced there is a scam involved.

Well, wasn't it a scam on the part of the priests?

Rene - A fake clone will do.
Actually it was a real clone. You could argue that it was a fake Kahless because he didn't have the memories & experiences of the original Kahless (just stories told by & of the real Kahless), but IIRC he was a real clone.

The priests seemed to believe that cloning was the way to fufull Kahless' prophecy. I guess hopping in a spaceship & slingshotting around a star to go back in time, grabbing Kahless, bringing him forward & extending his life with 24th century medicine was deemed to be too much trouble. ;-)

KAM,

thats what I meant: the message from the writers was that religion is scam, so kahless turned out to be a scam. The writers could have found a dozen different endings if they had wanted to tell a different message.

I never got that message from watching the episode. It seemed pretty clear to me that Kahless' departing words to Worf was the message: If what he taught was right and good and true, what differnece does it make if this Kahless is the same one as the one of legend? The message I gathered from that is that religion is not an empirical matter, and its strength lies in the validity of its teachings, not the factual truth of its mytho-historical stories and miracles.

While on one level it was a scam (certainly from Gowron's POV), on another level I think the priests did believe it when they thought cloning was an acceptable way to fufill the prophecy.
Although I do wonder if the priests would have accepted that idea if they weren't upset with the direction the Klingon Empire was taking?

Egad...yet another "Religion is bad" episode. WHEN are they going to make an episode where religion is GOOD?!

I didn't see it as a "Religion is bad" ep. I saw it as a "Religious authority figures are bad" ep.

ScottN--I can see your point of view too. We may both be right on this one.

Kevin Conway (Kahless) also had roles in the Law & Order episode "Corruption", and in the low budget (but high quality) 2000 film Two Family House.

Alan Oppenheimer (Koroth) was the go-to voice guy of the '80s, voicing most notably the evil Skeletor.

Charles Esten (Divok) is apparently Chip Esten, the funny improv comic off "Whose Line is it Anyway?"

Oppenheimer also played Captain Keogh of the ill-fated Odyssey in The Jem'Hadar(DS9).

At the very beginning, when Worf doesn't respond to Riker's call, I wonder:

Why does Riker immediately call security? If, as he suspects, there's something wrong with Worf, shouldn't he be calling a medical team first?

I mean I know, Worf's Klingon, but still...

Does he actually say that he suspects something's wrong with him, and that it may not be a security matter?

Luigi Novi, did Marka actually say that Riker said that he thought there was something wrong with him and that it was a security matter? No he did not. Reread the post, He said that "if, he (Riker) suspects, there's something wrong with Worf, shouldn't he be calling a medical team first"

Edited by the moderator to remove ad hominem remark

John-Boy: Luigi Novi, did Marka actually say that Riker said that he thought there was something wrong with him and that it was a security matter?
Luigi Novi: That was my question. I was asking if Riker expressed any such notion.

John-Boy: He said that "if, he (Riker) suspects, there's something wrong with Worf, shouldn't he be calling a medical team first"
Luigi Novi: No, that's not what he said. He said, If, as he suspects, there's something wrong with Worf, shouldn't he be calling a medical team first?." The use of the phrase "as he suspects" reads as if some explicit indication was made in the scene that Riker had this suspicion that there was something wrong with Worf. For some reason, you admitted the word "as," which changes the meaning. I was asking Mark, therefore, what indication was there that Riker suspected that there was something wrong with him.

Luigi Novi, The indication that Commander Riker thought there was something wrong with Lt. Worf is that he got a secrity team, went down to Lt. Worfs quarters and used his password to open the door. What more indication do you need?

You're obviously not paying close attention to the flow of the conversation, and are ignoring specific contextual things said, rather than reviewing the exchange when responding. Mark phrased it in a way to mean that Riker thought there was something wrong with Worf medically.

In other words, I agree with you. How does Mark know that the problem with Worf was a medical one, and not a security one (Hence my question above)?

Well its about time you agreed with me for once!!!!

Hey, first time for everything, right?

I'm glad you've agreed finally :-)

Now, let me clear up a couple of things:

1) I did imply Riker suspected sth wrong. His actual words were "He's never late (...) Something is wrong. Mr Data, you have the bridge. Security team, meet me at deck seven section twenty five..."

Now, in that context, when someone is reported to be in their quarters (that's the computer response) and does not respond to calls, I'd rather assume there was a medical problem. I was just wondering. At that moment, there was no indication of smoke or fire in Worf's quarters - he simply didn't respond. How come Riker immediately thought about security and never even considered medical?

2) I'm a she, not a he (common misunderstanding): Marka, not Mark.

Sorry, Marka. I thought your handle was MarkA, as in Mark A.

As for security, maybe Riker was influenced by all the instances of alien intrusion on the ship, and as Commander, tends to think of threats immediately in those terms. Yeah, he could've asked for a med tech too, but he was just thinking on his feet, I guess.

No problem, I said it was a common thing - a lot of people think that.

As for Riker's reaction, there's a curious juxtaposition in "Schisms": when the missing lieutenant is reported to have been back on board, only Doctor Crusher goes to his quarters. Now here, they'd have every reson to send the full security team - I just found it funny.

There are several "religion is good" episodes in DS9. And I wouldn't say there are "religion is bad" episodes, just ones that prefer using reason and logic over faith.

I believe this is mentioned in The Sword of Kahless(DS9), but the current bat'leth is very different from "his" bat'leth.

Is it normal for Klingon spiritual leaders to have the access and knowhow of cloning technology?

Is it normal for Klingon spiritual leaders to have the access and knowhow of cloning technology?

They have followers across all walks of Klingon society. Surely someone who has access and knowhow for cloning technology could also be deeply religious and willing to do whatever the religious leaders ask of him.

And I don't see this as a religion is bad episode. Remember what Khaless said to Worf at the end. It doesn't matter so much the literal truth of Khaless' life and if he returns or not, what matters is his teachings and the good things that he told his followers to do.

I don't see this as a "Religion is bad" episode either. But even if it were, so what?? The writers of The Next Generation have every right to make whatever kinds of episodes they want. If you don't like the content of the episodes, then just don't watch the.

inblackestnight: There are several "religion is good" episodes in DS9. And I wouldn't say there are "religion is bad" episodes, just ones that prefer using reason and logic over faith.
Luigi Novi: While I agree there are certainly some logic and reason over faith episodes, I don't see how this episode is one of them, since it appears to advocate the exact opposite. Worf certainly doesn't seem to resolve his crisis of faith in the episode by abandoning it or by using only logic and reason, Kahless' closing line to Worf seems doesn't seem to advocate the idea either, and even Data, of all people, claims to have made a leap of faith at one time in his life, something that Phil himself correctly cited as a nit in the Guides.

inblackestnight: The writers of The Next Generation have every right to make whatever kinds of episodes they want. If you don't like the content of the episodes, then just don't watch them.
Luigi Novi: I don't see where ibn expressed either the opinion that the writers can't make the episodes that they want, or that he didn't care for the ep's content.

Although I like this ep's content, as I do most of TNG's, I really didn't say that this particular ep pins logic against faith, I was just responding to older posts saying this was a "relgion is bad" ep. I am also not the author of the second quote Luigi but I don't think that was intentional.

Sorry about that.

Luigi Novi . . .

I wasn't responding to JUST inblackestnights post but to everyone that was debating if this was a "religion is bad" episode or not.

In fact, if you read my post, you will see that I AGREED with him that I didn't see this as a "religion is bad" episode, and I never said that he, or anyone else for that matter, said the creators of Next Generation could or couldn't make whatever kinds of episodes they wanted. I said that they can if you don't like the content of this episode then don't watch it.

Crusher: I wasn't responding to JUST inblackestnights post but to everyone that was debating if this was a "religion is bad" episode or not.
Luigi Novi: Sorry about that. I only scrolled up so far, and thought you were referencing night's post. My bad.

Crusher: In fact, if you read my post, you will see that I AGREED with him that I didn't see this as a "religion is bad" episode...
Luigi Novi: I know. I never said otherwise.

Crusher: ...and I never said that he, or anyone else for that matter, said the creators of Next Generation could or couldn't make whatever kinds of episodes they wanted. I said that they can if you don't like the content of this episode then don't watch it.
Luigi Novi: I'm not sure what you mean by this passage, as I'm not sure if the last sentence is intended as one sentence or two. In any case, if it was directed at the people who opined that this was a "religion is bad" episode, I would point out that it's kinda hard to not watch it if you only come away with that analysis of it after you've already seen it.

Mr. C: "I said that they can if you don't like the content of this episode then don't watch it.

I think MR. C meant to put a comma or period here:

I said that they can. if you don't like the content of this episode then don't watch it.

oh, and one doesn't have to have watched the content in order to know he or she doesn't like it. Remember that people can find out about things by watching the preview, or in my case, reading nitcentral.

Or once youve seen the episode don't watch it again.

Kahless was the subject of a non-canon Trek novel of the same name, which fleshed out the experiences of the real, non-clone Kahless, and also spoke about the Kahless clone becoming a spiritual leader within the Klingon Empire after the events of this episode. I read it years ago, and it wasn't too bad.

I suppose that Gowron was right to ask Cloned Kahless all the details surrounding the stories he told to the pilgrims gathered at Boreth. That was the clone's disadvantage - gaps in his memory. But when Gowron defeats Cloned Kahless in combat, well, I guess that's when it was clear that he was NOT the real Kahless.

I would have liked to have seen Cloned Kahless appear at least once on DS9. He could have overseen the official institution of Martok as the new Chancellor. Just an idea I had a while ago!

Actually, I just looked it up in the script, and it was the holographically-recreated Temple where Gowron challenges Cloned Kahless after he could not remember specific details of the stories he told to Koroth, Torin, and the various pilgrims gathered there, not Boreth. They had already been transported up to the Enterprise at that point.

This is another one of my favorite Klingon-related episodes in Trek. I was correct that the Kahless clone never did appear on DS9, but he was mentioned in both "The Way Of The Warrior" and "The Sword Of Kahless", but the actor who portrayed the Kahless clone did not actually appear in either of them. I thought that was too bad. And apparently Kor, like Gowron, did not think much of him, as he referred to the ceremonial emperor as a "toothless figurehead" in the episode that featured him, Worf, and Dax going on a quest to find the legendary Bat'leth that the real, non-clone Kahless did indeed wield millenia before.

"What was his name? What was he wearing? How tall was he? What color were his eyes?!" - Gowron interrogating Cloned Kahless and the Guardians regarding the story of the fool who tried to stand up against a powerful wind. Cool stuff!

Okay, new topic... where the hell is Alexander? He was in Rascals and A Fistful of Datas earlier this season, showing that he's living with Worf now. But in this episode Worf decides to go off on a pilgrimage and he doesn't even mention getting someone to babysit.
I understand that they want the episode to work as a stand-alone and that Alexander would have complicated things, but it does seem weird!

Missed opportunity to do a good scene with Worf explaining to Alexander why he has to leave, and why Alexander can't come along, and why that Klingon stuff is really important, even though Alexander really doesn't give a •••• about it. Ah! Father son bonding!

Kahless becomes a 24th Century version of Queen Elizabeth II.

A Constitutional Monarch.