So, Lore is the ultimate in cybernetic development, huh? A mechanical god? But...didn't Hugh call Data "...primitive..", and tell him he would soon be obsolete in "I, Borg"? I don't understand! Someone, please explain it to me! (Or, correct me, in the all-too-likely event that I have my facts wrong.)

I thought this episode was really horrid with the exception of the Dr. Crusher in command of the Enterprise-D parts. Descent, Part 1 was awesome-it's on my top ten Next Gen episode list; Descent, Part 2 is #2 on my worst Next Gen list. It's obvious without even looking at the credits that two different writers(or groups of writers) wrote the two different parts.

rachqd>> I dont know everything but to add to your list, Locutus(Picard) told Data, "you will be obsolete in the new order".

Oops, You are comparing Data's and Lores. Data and Lore are remarkably different. In ways we can and cannot understand. For one thing, Lore has a "Type-R" processor (Times Arrow PII) and Lore has emotion. And Lore knows how to speak to the Crystaline Entity.

Thats all for now.


ROBMAN

I wouldn't say Data and Lore are "remarkably different." In fact, Dr. Soong himself says that they are, "virtually identical, except for a bit of programming."

I remember when this ep first aired, a lot of criticism was about Hugh's comment on returning to the collective. I don't think people really understood that it was possible for Borg's to be separated from the collective. Thank goodness Voyager came along and made this episode make a little more sense.

Whoa, I think that that is the first time that anyone thanked Voyager for showing continuity in episodes.

When the metaphasic shield is activated, gauges show the hull temperature and radiation reducing.

Oddly enough, the temperature drops sharply, while the radiation drops slowly.

Isn't this the wrong way round? Isn't the hull temperature being caused by the radiation? If you take a hot object out of the sun and put it in the shade it goes dark straight away, but only slowly cools off.

The first time I saw this episode, one scene left me very disturbed. It was that one where Data comes strutting back into the Borg hall after the melee has ended, having just deactivated Lore. He says something along the lines of, "I have deactivated Lore. We must disassemble him so he no longer poses any threat!" What does Picard say? "It's good to have you back, Data." Granted, Picard need not be a hardened cynic, but how does he know this isn't Lore impersonating Data? And why not? Lore made exactly two appearances before "Descent, Part 1", and in each of those episodes he successfully impersonated Data. Besides, Data just emerged from a room where he and Lore were alone. It easily could have been Lore furtively convincing our good captain to disassemble Data, instead!

OK, we, the audience, saw the scene where Data confronts Lore and deactivates him, so we know it's really Data. But just from the way Brent Spiner delivered that line-"We must disassemble him so he no longer poses any threat!"-something in the tone he used, I could have sworn it was Lore I was hearing, not Data! I was having all kinds of "Datalore" flashbacks, let me tell you! I'm surprised Picard was not having them as well. Hopefully he'll be on his guard if he starts hearing Data spout contractions, or notices that oh-so-subtle facial tick...

Or was Groucho Marx in charge of makeup for this episode?
Does Lt. Barnaby have fake eyebrows? A couple of times in the episode, the skin above them wrinkles when he makes certain facial expressions. One easily noticeable example is when, 30 minutes into the episode, when the Enterprise’s warp engines go out while evading the Borg. Barnaby says the warp engines are out, and Crusher orders evasive maneuvers. Was actor James Horan’s skin damaged by all the makeup he wore when he played Jo’Bril in Suspicions, and by this episode, his skin is still healing, necessitating false eyebrows?
WARNING: Cybernetic racist slur coming up
Why don’t Riker and Worf use their phasers on wide beam during the Borg brawl at the end of the episode? Since they’re attacking individual drones, I have to ask: How do they tell the difference between Hugh’s drones and Lore’s drones?
Man, if Lore grabs Data and strips him naked, I’M CHANGING CHANNELS!
The Borg must use second-hand Cardassian technology. Look closely at the console that Lore is working on when Data confronts him toward the end of the episode following the Borg brawl. It’s the exact same console Picard, Worf and Crusher were lured into finding by the Cardassians on Seltris III toward the end of the episode Chain of Command part I.
And not only that, you’ll never have to do another bluescreen episode again!
At the end of the episode, Lore tells Data that, without him, Data will never feel emotion again, and Data responds that he knows. How’s this? The chip is still in Lore’s head, and all Data has to do is remove it, which he ends up doing. It turns out to be damaged, but Lore and Data don’t know that at the time of this scene.
Yeah, those poor Borg. They were reduced to cold, unfeeling, automatons devoid of personality…I wonder if the IRS hiring now?
I wonder: Did the crew study the Borg drones and their technology to help gain an advantage over the Borg in future encounters? Did they try to help the two drones rendered invalids by Lore’s experiments?
Picard: "My friends, let us take you back to our ship, remove those implants and restore your original identities."
The drones: "Nah, we’re cool. We’re actually more interesting people now than when we were human."
And again, as in I, Borg, no one seems to suggest deassimilating any of the drones, removing their implants and restoring their prior identities as they did with Picard at the end of The Best of Both Worlds part II.

Why do the Borg think that becoming artificial life forms would be better than what they are?

On page 4 of the NextGen Guide II, Phil states that the Enterprise hid in a star's Chromosphere during I, Borg. We don't know that for certain. It is possible that Picard just said that to trick the Borg. The Borg would suspect that the Enterprise would return for Geordi, so Picard possibly said that in front of Hugh to send the Borg off on a wild goose chase.

On page 5, Phil says that Picard kills a Borg, but nowhere in the show does it say that Borg is dead. As for Picard ripping off just the right piece of equipment, remember he was a Borg, so he probably knew where to look for that thing.

GREAT MOMENT: Crusher in command!

WAIT A MINUTE! Didn't Admiral Nechayev give Picard A DIRECT ORDER to destroy the Borg in pt. 1? I believe she did. So, why did Picard spare Hugh & his group of Borg AGAIN? Did Picard want to kiss Hugh "goodbye" or something?

I think I have an answer for why the Borg desire to be artificial lifeforms. They are like children, having only been individuals for a short while, and much of that time had been a bewildering and traumatic experience. They have latched onto the first person they met who offers them a role model, so they are emulating Lore like a child wishing to be like his parents. Had they met Data first, he might have told them that they did not have to become like him. Also, left to their own devices, I imagine that the Borg are like Vulcans, holding perfect, unemotional logic as an ideal. However, Lore may represent to them an example of perfection, a synthesis of logic and emotion. Yes, he is far from perfect, but people looking for an ideal can overlook a lot.

It would be interesting if at some time, they make a 3rd generation Star Trek series, in which one of the characters is a descendant of the Borg in this episode. I imagine the Federation taking responsibility for having caused the suffering the Borg on this planet endured, and helping them become fully functioning people. With their help, the Federation gains access to more advanced technology and begin to colonize on the far side of the galaxy. The freed Borg and their progeny will probably retain their implants, making them more aesthetically pleasing and keeping the nanoprobes to a minimum, so they aren't bald, grey and zombie-like. I also picture such a series dealing with the Federation's conflict with the Borg, trying to keep them from assimilating Federation citizens, and liberating those Borg who want out of the collective.

Ensign Tate has "already configured the emitters"? Good thing that Dr. Crusher agreed with the plan, or Tate would have wasted quite a bit of time in a very critical situation.

Geordi recounts a story where Data sank to the bottom of a lake while trying to swim. Data says that he "didn't have the bouyancy to return to the surface." In one of the movies (I can't remember which one, the one with the planet with slow aging) Data goes into a lake, and it turns out that he can be used as a floatation device. (Is he an airline seat?) Additionally they talk about the problems with getting all the water out. This doesn't seem like it would be a problem with Data's high level of technology?

As far as how the Borg recognize who is on what side during the melee... Hugh's group seems pretty small, they probably just punch out anyone whom they don't recognize.

T'was "Insurrection", Pentalarc.

Near the end, Data deactivates Lore. Granted, it's a good idea, but Lore should be regarded as "sentient" as well as Data. Why not just stun him then repair him like Soong wanted to?

I must add that leaving Lore in the Delta Quadrant wasn't exactly a smart move either! I mean...the universe ain't exactly a safe place, ya' know! All that needs to happen is some hostile force to re-activate Lore & you have more problems than what you had now!

Who said they left him. They probably took him back with them, remember that they had the emotion chip in Generations.

John A. Lang: Near the end, Data deactivates Lore. Granted, it's a good idea, but Lore should be regarded as "sentient" as well as Data. Why not just stun him then repair him like Soong wanted to?
Luigi Novi: Who said Soong wanted to repair him? He didn't repair him; he shut him down after the other colonists complained, and then subsequently built Data.

John A. Lang: I must add that leaving Lore in the Delta Quadrant wasn't exactly a smart move either!
Luigi Novi: There was no indication that they left Lore in the Delta Quadrant. As Brian said, they most likely took him back and put him into storage.

In "Brothers", Soong indicated that he wanted to repair Lore...if he had the time. But because of Soong's impending death, he couldn't fix Lore.

I agree with you both that Lore may be in storage somewhere.

When the battle between the Borg drones engages, Picard just stands there in the middle of the fray instead of ducking for cover.

John, I reviewed the episode. Yes, when Lore asks Soong why he didn't just fix him, Soong responds that it wasn't as easy as that; that the next logical step was to construct Data, and that afterwards, he planned to get back to Lore, to fix him. You were right, John. In answer to your question of Why not just stun him then repair him like Soong wanted to?, I would say that given Soong's statement, that it was not easy. Soong never got around to figuring out how to do this (otherwise he would've done so). Since Data's own skills as a cyberneticist are imperfect, as is the cutting edge of sentient androids, as illustrated by the fact that no one can create a sentient android that survives for more than a short time, it is reasonable to understand that no one knows how to fix Lore.

Crusher in command makes no sense. Picard should have left RIKER in command and DOCTOR Crusher should have been on the surface in case anyone got wounded.

OH OH OH At the end of Star Trek: Nemesis, Data is destroyed but his programming was transferred to B-4. Why can't the crew get Lore's parts back, wipe his memory and put Data's memory in there?

Why would they want to put Datas memory into Lore? To have two Data's running around? THAT makes no sense.

And what do you mean "when they get Lore's parts back"? They had all his parts at the end of the episode, where are you saying they going to get his parts from??

I assume mike ram assumed that they disassembled lore to prevent him from being reactivated by someone else. And since B4 has the memory transfer from Data, they can put it into lore whose neural pathways are much more advanced than b4's. Thus, it would allow for the crew to get data back.

Of course, even if they did this, Data Mark II wouldn't have any emotions as the emotion chip went into oblivion along the Data Mark I.

IMO, it still woulden't be Data.

Although, I guess it depends on whether or not you believe Data had a soul.

well, I'd assume it'd be the same as taking your HD out of your pc and sticking it into another pc. Of course, even with the memory transfer, it's obvious that not everything was copied, as B4 would have known about all of the security codes that Data knew. Since B4 had to look stuff up, one can logically conclude that only certain information was transferred.

Tate says that she reconfigured the tractor emitters, but the beam used on the sun comes from the ventral phaser emitter, and looks like a phaser beam as well.

I was surprised that Geordi did not suspect that Data might have been impersonating Picard.

In his review of this episode in his second TNG book, Phil wondered why the Borg Collective seems to have lost interest in the Federation. That is a good question, you get the impression that they weren't trying very hard.

Why not send fifty cubes, that would finish the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, the whole enchalada (sp?). Of course, if that had happened, that would have affectively ended the Trek franchise.

That is why the Borg never came after the Federation in masse, the writers knew if that happened, they would be out of work (at least until Babylon Five or another show at that time would have snapped some of them up).

"Phil wondered why the Borg Collective seems to have lost interest in the Federation. That is a good question, you get the impression that they weren't trying very hard."

Remember, that was written before First Contact. In that, the Borg send only *one* cube to assimilate Earth, and thanks to Picard's hearing the thoughts of the Collective, he knew just where to hit them to cause the most damage. But then the sphere comes out, and then comes the rest of the movie.

Also, Phil thought that the Trek PTB should "invent a new enemy". Well, he got his wish two-fold. The Dominion on DS9 and Species 8472 (the Undine) on VGR. And I wonder how he felt about them...

Of course, the answer remains that if the Borg had come after the Federation in force, it would have been game over. End of Starfleet, end of Federation, end of series!

As per the Star Trek: Destiny novels (which I've been studiously avoiding after reading the Resistance/Before Dishonor/Sum of Their Parts trilogy only to find out that it concluded three novels of chasing down one Borg ship with... the start of another Borg invasion! ...But also which every novel since makes reference to, so it's hard to avoid...), apparently not. ;-)

Hugh.......Jonathan del Arco

Del Arco currently plays the coroner, Dr. Morales, on The Closer. His function is similar to Leslie Hendrix's Dr. Rodgers on Law & Order and CI, and Tamara Tunie's Dr. Warner on SVU.

* Apparently, transwarp conduit travel times can vary greatly. After their first transwarp trip, Geordi says that based on the distance they traveled, their speed must have been at least 20 times maximum warp. After their second transwarp trip, Riker says they have traveled 65 light years. At maximum warp it would take the Enterprise about 8 days to cover that distance, and 1/20th of that time would be about 10 hours. But they appear to have made the trip in 10 seconds.

* LAFORGE: I've scanned three different star systems within sensor range. There is evidence of at least two advanced civilizations, but I'm reading no life signs. But there are indications that plasma weapons have been fired in those systems recently.

Is Geordi saying the Borg wiped out all life on at least two inhabited planets? Were millions or billions killed? If so, why does Geordi mention this information so casually, and why doesn't Riker show the slightest reaction to it? Picard does at least respond "The Borg have been busy" in a grim tone, but then there is never any mention of it again.

Also, why does Geordi say two "civilizations", as opposed to inhabited worlds? How does he know that they weren't part of the same civilization?

* When Picard asks Geordi how far Data and the Borg could have traveled across the planet's surface on foot, Geordi responds that "based on what we know about the Borg, I don't think they should be able to move any faster than you or I". Why wouldn't cyborgs be able to move faster than humans?

* How is that they can transport through the EM interference in the magnetosphere, but not scan through it?

* Geordi says that because of the EM interference with their sensors, if they transport down, "there could be 50 Borg down there waiting for us and we'd never even know it". Does the Enterprise not have any ordinary cameras, such as present-day satellites use to take pictures from orbit?

Oops, I should have posted my above post in Descent Part I.

* What are the odds that it would just happen to be Lore who found the disabled Borg ship?

* Were the Borg who followed Lore all killed? If not, what happened to them?