Hi Peter,

You said:

In a way the Cardies are very much like [political group deleted], savage, subhuman and brutal.

*Ah, that's an easy thing to say, isn't it? And oh so relativistic. Indeed, in DS9 it was shown that the Cardassians
themselves look with horror on the human/Federation notion of innocent until proven guilty (Dukat's response was
"how barbaric") precisely because to them it looks as though innocent people are being tried, which does of
course happen. From the Cardassian viewpoint, it is the Federation that is savage. You say you're young, maybe
you'll learn this as you age--people do have their reasons for doing things, and the whole universe does not work
according to your rubric...or your prejudices.

Savage, subhuman, and brutal? They (and I) would say restrained, artistic (tell me Terok and Empok Nor are not
more beautiful than Federation stations), disciplined, rational, educated people with a huge love of family (witness
Dukat's great love for Ziyal, his regret that he could not take his son to the amusement park for his birthday, and
his swearing by the lives of his seven
children). That's the thing about prejudices, Peter--they blind you to seeing any good in others. Life is rarely so
black and white.
The admittedly evil Dukat celebrated Jake's and Sisko's voyage to Cardassian space in the Bajoran sun ship with a
fireworks display. Dukat saved Sisko's life. The list goes on.

Before they took TNG off the air here, I had a chance to see some of the few Cardassian episodes of that show,
and was shocked at how poorly the Cardassians were treated. Starfleet would enter Cardassian space with
impunity, and Picard himself
was sent to perform a terrorist act. The Cardassians are a deeply defensive people, and actions like those are
going to provoke a response. Again, it's a matter of seeing the other side.

The Cardassians torture innocent men

*What makes you think they're innocent? ;)

They capitulate to dictators

*And the Federation is awfully cozy with the Klingons, a warrior race that has undoubtedly enslaved a nation or
two. Has any Federation race in the end resisted dictators at such a loss to themselves as the Cardassian
population did in What You Leave Behind?

They murder civilians

*Nope, no humans have EVER done that *rolls eyes*. And, of course, neither would the Bajorans or the Maquis.
Shoot, Peter, Sisko himself willingly became an accessory to the murder of two innocent people in In the Pale
Moonlight.

They invade sister countries and kill resistance and force mothers to become "comfort women".

*Mistakes were made. :) Funny, though, that someone who hates [political group deleted] as much as you do has
trouble with an occupying army killing "resistance fighters." Those are called "terrorists" in the British press, Peter.

Humans do not do that

*You're right. No human has ever killed the innocent. No human has ever capitulated to a dictator ("Peace in our
time," Peter?). No innocent human has ever been tortured by another. No human nation has ever conquered and
enslaved their brothers. No innocent person has ever been convicted in a human court. No human women have
ever been used as comfort women in time of war. No human has ever acted savagely or brutally. It's all so clear
now--the Cardassians _are_ inferior to humans. *rolls eyes again*

Peter, obviously this is all fiction. I can admire a fictional race for having traits I would probably abhor in real life,
so it may be
unfair for me to say that with your admiration for [conservative political leader deleted] it's strange you despise
the Cardassians so much. For that I apologize. But I must say I'm distressed by your seeming inability to see
nothing but bad in those you dislike and nothing but good in those
you like. That blinkered vision is never enlightening.

Get a grip...The Cardassians are fiction./

Rene, we know Cardassians are fiction. However, they're compelling enough that we want to discuss them. Nobody is making you click on this topic.

Palandine -- very interesting post! I'll add my own thoughts if I may.

Cardassians are Orwellian creatures, to be sure. They were drawn by the writers from our own most frightening cultural visions. However, they are also a fascinating people, with loyal hearts and strong family ties; an education system that puts the Federation's to shame; and art, architecture, literature, and music that is second to none.

Federation humans, on the other hand, have produced no notable literature in the last 50 years, according to Bashir in "The Die Is Cast". They are by and large a peaceful people, with a merciful justice system. (Prison sentences don't seem to last longer than 2 years, no matter how horrible your crime, and you serve it in a penal colony that looks more like a resort by today's standards.) But their art is stagnating, and they seem to accept alien cultures only by assimilating them. They will accept no diversity which clashes with their narrow, rather bland vision. Alien viewpoint is only welcomed once sufficently diluted for human consumption. IMHO, this is the true horror of an Orwellian society -- everyone thinking alike.

You can see Cardassians as evil villians and look no deeper, but I find it's much more interesting to see both the good and the bad in all things. Every alien race on Star Trek has something to say about humans of today. Some make us question our own convictions. Don't shut out that experience -- it can reaffirm and enrich your beliefs, or it can shake them to their foundations. That's what art *does*, and if Star Trek is to be art, you must let it affect you.

Ditto, Mark!

I've just always had a soft spot in my heart for the Spoonheads. I think they get a bad rap.

Plus, just looking at Garak makes me want to go to the zoo and do a little alligator wrestling.

Feel free to file that under "too much information" :)

It's a lot easier to classify an entire race (fictional or otherwise) as being all good, or all evil, rather than take the time to accept that those races are made up of individuals, and those individuals can be good, bad, or in between.

In TOS, Klingons were the bad guys. Period. They had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It was not until the episode with Kang that you got the impression that maybe there was a bit more to these people.

In TNG and DS9, Klingons have become "the good guys"--an admirable, honorable people, but I don't think anyone would question that they still do certain things that humans find appalling.

Cardassians are the same. They've become the token "bad guys", but they have a lot of admirable traits, as well. What about that guy on "Duet" who was willing to sacrifice himself to bring attention (and repentance) for the atrocities his people committed on the Bajorans? Or that Cardassian teacher that Quark loved? Or 2 of the 3 female Cardassian scientists who visited?

Judge the individuals, if you will, but don't condemn the entire race!

Well, I knew that if a beautiful Bajoran Dabo girl could fall in love with a guy from one of the ugliest races that ST had ever created I knew anything was possible. But then, that's the point (or one of them) of ST, isn't it?

I think if any civilization is going to put defendants on trial with a pre-ordained verdict of guilt and a pre-ordained death sentence, they'd better be damned sure those defendants are (1) guilty; (2) guilty of the exact crime they have been charged with; and (3) totally without excuse or justification for their crime that might mitigate their sentence.

None of the episodes of DS-9 that feature Cardassian trials meet even the first of these criteria. In "Tribunal" Miles O'Brien was found guilty of running weapons to the Maquis without evidence or testimony that supported that verdict. In "Things Past," Odo openly admitted that the wrong persons had been put to death for the attempt on Dukat's life.

It's all very well and good to praise a justice system that theoretically only puts the guilty on trial, but the reality that's depicted here is far different. Moreover, a society that puts people to death for anything from excessive breathing to high treason is simply not defensible as an "other ethnic viewpoint." You need to see the forest for the trees, Palandine.

I'm curious where you got the 'excessive breathing' bit. Can you give canonical evidence for that implication? I think it's a rather misleading exaggeration.

I recall Tain and Garak talking about a Cardassian named Dr. Parmak, who Garak interrogated and broke by staring at him for four hours. Parmak spent a few years in a labour camp, but at the time the conversation took place he was not only back on Cardassia Prime, but as Tain commented, "I think he's practicing medicine again."

Just to point out, we Americans (for that's who most of us really mean when we say "humans," lacking most any other reference points) have done some pretty... odd stuff in the past as well. Take, oh, the annexation of Texas and the Mexican War. Mexico was looking for settlers to come into Texas. Through various means, many Americans came. Southern Americans. Southerners that kept slaves. Non-Catholic (requirement for Mexican citizenship), non-Spanish speaking, slaveholding Southerners. What do these people do in order to get citizenship? Do they change their ways? No! They start a war with Mexico over Mexico's own laws, which they willingly agreed to obey in the first place! What's really insane is, they won! (Sort of.)

So what does the United States do? Well, nothing for ten years, during which time the Republic of Texas made various overtures to them. Finally, on December 29, 1845, the United States annexed Texas. Problems soon arised. Mexico set the border at the Nueces River. The US said the border was at the Rio Grande. (This allowed them to say that the area known as "Texas" was about twice as big as the Mexicans said it was.) The Mexicans point out that there are no Americans living south of the Nueces River. So the United States sends troops in the region between the Nueces River and the Rio Grande. The Mexicans (rightfully!) send their troops to attack the United States' force. The US responds by declaring war on Mexico, saying that American blood has been shed on American soil. Thus begins a two-year war, in which the US basically steamrolls over Mexico. At the end, Mexico City was under US control, and the US got not only Texas, but New Mexico, Arizona, and California too! The United States essentially provoked a war (two wars, really), turned right back around and claimed that they were the oppressed, and increased the size of the country by 1/3 with territory they, in effect, stole from Mexico. Insane, no?

My point, beyond going over my history notes to study for my upcoming exam? We humans have done some stuff that's pretty wacky too. Surely the Cardassians have some redeeming value.

Now be nice, lest I bring out the War of 1812!

Of course the Cardassians have some redeeming value. I was speaking only of their justice system. And I certainly see the flaws in ours -- every day, as a matter of fact.

The "excessive breathing" bit was a joke.

Hi, Lawyer.

"I think if any civilization is going to put defendants on trial with a pre-ordained verdict of guilt and a pre-ordained death sentence, they'd better be damned sure those defendants are (1) guilty; (2) guilty of the exact crime they have been charged with; and (3) totally without excuse or justification for their crime that might mitigate their sentence."

For what it's worth, in real life I totally agree with you. The Cardassian system is superior in the theoretical plane, just as Socialism as it is understood theoretically is probably the ideal political system. I admire in the fantasy universe of Star Trek something that I think would totally fail in real life.

However, I think the Cardassians have an out. Garak gave Bashir a Cardassian enigma tale for his birthday. Bashir, in typically bad grace, griped about it because (something along the lines of) the bad guys are always caught and always found guilty. Garak's reply was "yes, but the fun is figuring out just who is guilty of what."

If you have a society that thinks that everyone's basically guilty of something worth being executed for and just hasn't been caught, then the fear of accidentally executing an innocent guy goes down considerably.

I began this thread in response to a person who said categorically that humans were superior to Cardassians. Clearly this is not as black and white as he lets on. To give a real world example, in my state of Missouri we just executed a guy who killed another man in a bar fight. We have the distinction of being the first state EVER to execute a person for a killing that occurred in the context of a bar fight. I would say that violates your #3 above, and certainly puts the lie to Peter's (I believe) origianl thesis that humans are somehow above reproach when it comes to our systems of justice.

"In "Tribunal" Miles O'Brien was found guilty of running weapons to the Maquis without evidence or testimony that supported
that verdict."

Yes, but going back to my point above about the mindset being that everyone is guilty of something, that really doesn't matter. In Empok Nor, when Garak was running amok he needled O'Brien pretty hard about some operation he'd been involved in that killed a lot of Cardassian civilians (sorry for the lack of detail, they no longer show DS9 here so it's been too long since I've seen Empok Nor). If Garak knew it, the Cardassian legal system probably did too. So, execute O'Brien for running guns to the Maquis or for killing Cardassian civilians, it's probably all the same to their justice system.

"Moreover, a society that puts people to death for anything from excessive breathing to high treason is simply not defensible as an "other ethnic viewpoint.""

That may be true, but it's not part of the point I was making, which was a response to the notion that Federation=good, Cardassian=bad.

The Klingons also seem to have a rather liberal policy of executing people for relatively minor offenses. The alien of the week that Garak got released from a Klingon death sentence to help Sisko get the Romulans into the war in "In the Pale Moonlight" appeared to be a simple con artist, certainly not a murderer or rapist. I can't recall from where I saw this (so I could be wrong) but there also seemed to be some indication that the Klingons practiced torture, just as the Cardassians do. However, the Federation is very cozy indeed with the Klingons. Again, the line is not as black and white as some would paint it.

Palandine, who can bend minds with her spoon

Well...that con artist did try to kill Quark.

But can you make spoons with your mind?

Who is this Peter guy? Oh, I've seen him twice and this is the same anon. as on the Euthinasia board.

To get an idea of where he's coming from, you might want to check out his posts on And The Holocaust Isn't the Only Thing that Never Happened Board, or any of the other various boards in Political Musings and Religious Musings.