Although rather political, I find numerous episodes exceptionally gripping and oftentimes with a puissant, stupendous story/script. Odo soon became my favorite character, considering his cryptic heritage and prior, enshrouded yet regretful past with the Cardassians, which resulted in the deaths of three innocent Bajorans, at least to me, make him quite an appealing character (can anyone say Les Miserables, The Fugitive, Nowhere Man, The Pretender, etc.?). Hey, Darth Vadar turned a whole new leaf at the conclusion of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi. Yes, I shall, in all likelihood, inadvertently provoke fellow NitCentral members due to the temerarious mention of Star Wars in a Star Trek-based message board.

I liked the characters and I liked the way it wasn't afraid to shake of the status quo. It also had an epic feeling it.

I liked the way the characters all meshed (and sometimes argued with each other.) It always irritated me that this series was never nominated for the award of "Best Ensemble Casting".

(Getting to see Julian Bashir every week didn't hurt, either.)

Yes, you're right. There have been a lot of messages deleted from this topic! See, I am far too busy to show much restraint when I hear that a topic has gotten out of hand on this discussion board.

So . . . if I have to be called on to clean up a section, I will come in with a very big knife and hack off anything that looks offensive. Sorry, if your message was deleted even though it was written within the bounds of "light-heartedness and good cheer."

Note to "Peter": My name is Phil Farrand, I'm the guy who started NitCentral. I'm the guy who wrote the books. I'm the guy who is currently working lots and lots of hours as a computer consultant to support my family and save enough to someday--hopefully--get back to writing.

I have heard your name mentioned too many times in the last few weeks. This is place where people are welcome to share their opinion . . . so long as they share them in an intelligent, thoughtful manner. Apparently, you either lack this skill, or are too young to have developed this skill or are too thoughtless to employ this skill.

If you can restrain yourself, I am more than happy to have you continue as an active participant at NitCentral.

If you can not, I will instruct my moderators to begin deleting every message you post and any inflammatory discussion that you have ever been a apart of here at NitCentral. In short, it will be as if you have never existed here.

I would rather not do that. I would rather you have the opportunity to participate. The expression of your viewpoint is just as important as everyone else's--provided you can do it without needless vitriol.

Choose well.

Yet another example of the liberal Conspiracy, who's agenda is stamp out ALL right thinking people who believe in , ummm well What Ever God tells me to believe, yeah he talks to me in different voices, I hear Him when I hide from the Bullies at school.

Hmm, let me see.

Unnecessary capital letters. Pointless theme, blaming of religion itself for producing a defender of morality, rather than the defender. Strange, very bad jokes and general low intelligence.

Call me crazy, but I think it was Slugbug who wrote the last message.

Peter.

Phil, you are right. Though political bias in Star Trek is an interesting issue, this is not the board for it to be discussed.

It is a pity that as ever, because everyone flamed me, and despite no such response, I am blamed for a flame war. Apparently my views are welcome but not if people cannot restrain themselves in their response. It is my responsibility to ensure they do not step out of line. What a shame.

Peter.

Oh yes, and I hope you can get back to writing soon. I really enjoyed the nitpickers guides and would be keen to see a DS9 update and a Voyager Guide.

Peter.

[G]eneral low intelligence. Call me crazy, but I think it was Slugbug who wrote the last message.

I do not approve of whoever impersonated you, but Peter, that's a flame. Just so you know.

I'm not going to respond to that fire-starter. However I must say that SLUGBUG is not the only person who Unnecessarilly capitalizes. I myself do it all of the time. (Oh my GOD! I just used an unnecessary preposition! Go get a cross and some nails. I'll be waiting in the parlor.)
I liked DS9 because it really showed growth of character over time. It gave us characters that we did not like immediately, but that we grew to like over a course of years. The baddies had actual lives, and ideas beyond their makeup, and bad deeds. It had plot arcs, and more than that, it had plot arcs that took years to conclude. It had many good qualities that I hope will be carried over into the next Star Trek series. That, however, would be a miracle.

I started writing my last post BEFORE Mark posted his. IT WAS DIRECTED AT PETER, NOT MARK.

I just realized that peter posted one after the one exactly one minute after the one that i read, and was responding to. I HATE REAL TIME!

*All political references removed. If this is still not the place for this discussion, mods are free to delete. This was part of a deleted discussion of Peter's assertion that humans are superior to Cardassians (among others)*

Hi Peter,

You said:

In a way the Cardies are very much like [political group deleted], savage, subhuman and brutal.

*Ah, that's an easy thing to say, isn't it? And oh so relativistic. Indeed, in DS9 it was shown that the Cardassians themselves look with horror on the human/Federation notion of innocent until proven guilty (Dukat's response was "how barbaric") precisely because to them it looks as though innocent people are being tried, which does of course happen. From the Cardassian viewpoint, it is the Federation that is savage. You say you're young, maybe you'll learn this as you age--people do have their reasons for doing things, and the whole universe does not work according to your rubric...or your prejudices.

Savage, subhuman, and brutal? They (and I) would say restrained, artistic (tell me Terok and Empok Nor are not more beautiful than Federation stations), disciplined, rational, educated people with a huge love of family (witness Dukat's great love for Ziyal, his regret that he could not take his son to the amusement park for his birthday, and his swearing by the lives of his seven
children). That's the thing about prejudices, Peter--they blind you to seeing any good in others. Life is rarely so black and white.
The admittedly evil Dukat celebrated Jake's and Sisko's voyage to Cardassian space in the Bajoran sun ship with a fireworks display. Dukat saved Sisko's life. The list goes on.

Before they took TNG off the air here, I had a chance to see some of the few Cardassian episodes of that show, and was shocked at how poorly the Cardassians were treated. Starfleet would enter Cardassian space with impunity, and Picard himself
was sent to perform a terrorist act. The Cardassians are a deeply defensive people, and actions like those are going to provoke a response. Again, it's a matter of seeing the other side.

The Cardassians torture innocent men

*What makes you think they're innocent? ;)

They capitulate to dictators

*And the Federation is awfully cozy with the Klingons, a warrior race that has undoubtedly enslaved a nation or two. Has any Federation race in the end resisted dictators at such a loss to themselves as the Cardassian population did in What You Leave Behind?

They murder civilians

*Nope, no humans have EVER done that *rolls eyes*. And, of course, neither would the Bajorans or the Maquis. Shoot, Peter, Sisko himself willingly became an accessory to the murder of two innocent people in In the Pale Moonlight.

They invade sister countries and kill resistance and force mothers to become "comfort women".

*Mistakes were made. :) Funny, though, that someone who hates [political group deleted] as much as you do has trouble with an occupying army killing "resistance fighters." Those are called "terrorists" in the British press, Peter.

Humans do not do that

*You're right. No human has ever killed the innocent. No human has ever capitulated to a dictator ("Peace in our time," Peter?). No innocent human has ever been tortured by another. No human nation has ever conquered and enslaved their brothers. No innocent person has ever been convicted in a human court. No human women have ever been used as comfort women in time of war. No human has ever acted savagely or brutally. It's all so clear now--the Cardassians _are_ inferior to humans. *rolls eyes again*

Peter, obviously this is all fiction. I can admire a fictional race for having traits I would probably abhor in real life, so it may be
unfair for me to say that with your admiration for [conservative political leader deleted] it's strange you despise the Cardassians so much. For that I apologize. But I must say I'm distressed by your seeming inability to see nothing but bad in those you dislike and nothing but good in those
you like. That blinkered vision is never enlightening.

Please take the Cardassian discussion to a new conversation, if you don't mind.

Back on topic, I *really* enjoyed the final season of DS9. Not only was the storyline compelling, but they remembered something Voyager has forgotten: there is an entire cast there, not just a couple of characters. I've become spoiled by shows like Buffy and Angel; if Joss and co. can effectively juggle an ensemble cast every week, for two shows, that raises the bar for everyone else. DS9's final season did that very well.

Effective stories, well told. I'm a sucker for that.

Check out the December issue of Cinefantastique for a wonderful wrap-up of DS9's final season.

I have written a reply but the •••• thing wont post.

Peter.

Sorry, I can't take credit for the faux-peter, but I did think it was quite funny. :~}

He speakes of us like Kaga speakes of Iron chefs 'tears'

Today's theme ingredient.... Heart of Targ!

Hmmm...Iron Chef serves heart of targ with a side of sauteed faux-peter. I must have missed an episode back in Season I.

The actress gave it a 18.

One thing I hated: That flashing strobe light outside Quark's Bar! [i.e. "the seizure inducer/migrainer headache machine] Why did they put it behind the actors in so many shots?

Three things I liked about DS9
1: I thought it was a lot darker than any other Trek series, especially once the war got into full swing.
2: I thought it was also very good at doing the lighter episodes, such as "Take Me Out To The Holosuite" and nearly any episode whgere Vic played a major role.
3: The relationships, particularly the O'Brien-Bashir friendship.You really do get the impression that they are truly good friends, something which I think is lacking from Voyager.

The O'Brien-Bashir thing was probably the most enjoyable thing I found in DS9. It started off tenuously, then developed into an Odd Couple style friendship, and by the end they literally couldn't get enough of each other. It was something most of the audience could easily relate to.
Oh, and seeing Jadzia Dax on the screen gave new meaning to life in general...

And yes, DS9 wouldn't be DS9 without Morn.

And yes, DS9 wouldn't be DS9 without Morn.

Now if only he'd have shut up, instead of being a line hog...

I think cableface's summary of DS9 is perfect. It's the darkest of the Trek series, yes. One of the reasons I liked it so much (I think I'm coming out as a goth...and I already wear a spiked collar, black clothes...no, I am NOT depressed, nor do I worship the Devil. So up yours). Besides, it was just a great series. My fave of all of them, along with TNG.

>It's the darkest of the Trek series

Agreed. I like those darker episodes too.

>coming out as a goth...and I already wear a spiked collar, black clothes

Sounds great!

>I am NOT depressed, nor do I worship the Devil

Of course you don't. It's amazing what some people think isn't it?

Sophie
(Not Goth, but Goth-friendly)

"I think I'm coming out as a goth...and I
already wear a spiked collar, black clothes...no, I am NOT depressed, nor do I worship
the Devil. So up yours"

Interesting. Bringing up an aspect of your life no one asked about or cares about and then insulting people for something you bring up.

I must be no one then. ;-)

Don't worry, I know. A tree fell over in front of me yesterday and it didn't make a noise.

Back to the title of the board "Reasons why we enjoyed Star Trek: Deep Space Nine". THe main one was it wasn't VOYAGER.

Well said, Charles. Well said

Laughs out loud!

Sorry. Just had a really bad week when I wrote that. It was a point to why I liked the way DS9 is so dark.

When people see me, they immediately make the conclusion that I am depressed and I bow to the creature from the firey depths of Hell. I really hate it when they do that. One of the things that shows how intelligent the human race really is.

I liked DS9, and have fond memories of it still because

They were (until the Defiant) largely stuck in one place. That forced the authors to really work on character development & interrelationships--O'Brian & Bashir, Bashir & Garak, Odo & Quark in their strange way . . .

Non-main characters got to develop--Jake (Who was a convincing _kid_, not a supergenius, and who had a good ambition of his own outside of Starfleet), Morn (in his own way), Rom, Nog; Garak started as very minor. Dukat, even.

Really, the "exciting" war shows were my least-favorite because they detracted from the above strengths. I still watched & mostly enjoyed them, bar a several-episode one-person boycot when Jadzia died, but they were not the best episodes.

I am not sure exactly why, but I think I prefered DS9 because when I turned it on, I knew I would be enjoying every minute of the show, rather than select parts mixed in with dull bits, like Voyager and TNG. The characterisation and scripts were always good, and the show itself was unpredictable in a way TNG and Voyager never were.

Peter.

I must confess that at first, I didn't like DS9. There were a few dull episodes that I had seen (before my encounter with Benn) and I didn't like what I saw. Now, ever since I started buying the DVDs & watching the episodes again, I quickly caught on to the nuances & started enjoying the show. Greanted, there have been some stinky episodes (IE Move Along Home), but if you ignore the bad ones & focus on the good ones, you'll see like I did that DS9 is rather enjoyable indeed.

I'm very glad to hear it, John, especially since you spent all that money on the DVDs!

In any case, I never really got into DS9 until after NextGen ended - I specifically remember really starting to like it when Past Tense aired. It wasn't until after the show ended and I rewatched old episodes like Duet and The Wire that I realised it was my favourite.

yeah, and the plot holes, inconsistancies with the timeline, other glaring errors were done to "tell the story." (Prophets and the Dominion War)

Not because the creators can't come up with one...

(ie Enterprise)

Damar, Dukat, Garak, and Weyoun... The best characters in DS9.

I liked DS9 because people - may they be human, a puddle of jelly, greedy big-eared high school principals, believers, non-believers, silent as a fish or talking like a book, writers of books, people who just imagine that reality is real , Tribbles, Klingons, Out- or insiders, tailors, genetically enhanced and proud or hiding it, shortly, that people are just people.
DS9 made it very clear that those people were like you and me, with fears, passions, feelings.....
TNG didn't really give us this message, they just said "we've come a long way since the 20th century and were bigger-better-stronger!"

I liked that the Dominion, much like the Federation, was made up of many races, although the Founders (with their diplomats the Vorta), kind of forced their members to join so they would not be conquered and/or killed, I suppose. I think that's what they said about the Karemma and the Dosi.

As for the Breen, I don't know if they were ever considered as a target for conquest of their world. All I know is, in the last two seasons, they just joined the Dominion and were amicable with the Founders and the Vorta, but did not acknowledge the Cardassians. And they spoke electronically, which the Founder Leader and Weyoun could somehow understand. Interesting!

I once wrote a post on another site wondering about what happened to the Dominion, post-DS9. I wondered if, now that the war was over, the Founders would be quarantined on their planet, Vorta would no longer be cloned, the Jem'Hadar would no longer be bred, and the Karemma, Dosi, the race that the Hunters of Tosk belonged to, and any other former members would be freed.

To this day, I still wonder about that.

But I liked DS9 for it's intelligent Trek stories, and as was seen on the "Worst Episodes" thread, there were some pretty bad ones too.

But I would much rather watch this show than lots of other lame and mediocre sci-fi shows that there have been, that's for sure!

As for the Breen, I don't know if they were ever considered as a target for conquest of their world. All I know is, in the last two seasons, they just joined the Dominion and were amicable with the Founders and the Vorta, but did not acknowledge the Cardassians. And they spoke electronically, which the Founder Leader and Weyoun could somehow understand. Interesting!

******SPOILERS******

The first ep that I ever recall seeing a Breen play an important role in was "By Inferno's Light" when a Breen is the cellmate of Martok & Bashir. Of course Martok & Bashir were both captured so that a changeling could take their places and affect political/strategic goals with their own people. The Breen prisoner ends up getting killed during their escape attempt, after his quick thinking saved everyone else's lives. I wonder who he was. The next time we hear of the Breen they come into the war on The Dominion's side. Given that Martok & Bashir were replaced by Changelings because they were important I wonder if that ill faited Breen was too. Perhaps he was important enough and the Changeling who replaced him was good enough that he played the system enough to make the Breen support the Dominion.

Yes, that did happen, Brian. The Continuing Commitee (www.trekcc.org) has made virtual sets of the Trek CCG ever since Decipher, Inc. discontinued it in 2007. And in one of the sets is the Dominion personnel "Breen Founder". So what you said about the Breen being manipulated into supporting the Dominion is true, because that captive Breen was also replaced by a Changeling. And then the Breen would join the Founders in fighting the Federation.

I also wonder what happened to the Breen after the war. They did attack Earth and almost destroy Starfleet Headquarters, so would the Federation want to see that they are punished for their transgressions? Or what?

Anyway, it's worth thinking about.

I didn't like DS9 overly much the first time I watched it back in 1993, but after I decided to start watching it again recently, I really got sucked in and have loved it. The variety of things that can happen on a space station, the rich and controversial history of the space station and the Bajoran Occupation, and the overarching Dominion threat all combined to make it a very memorable series.

Disclaimer: I like TNG, DS9, and — *gasp* — VOY equally but each for different reasons. I'm glad they made each series.

But about DS9: it was amazing. Here are a few things I liked about it:

• the myriad story arcs, as well as the six part miniseries beginning season six and the nine part (ten episodes) miniseries that concluded season seven. I *love* serialized drama. That's probably why I don't care much for movies, eveb Trek ones.

• for some reason, the SFX of DS9 have, IMO, aged better than TNG or even the later VOY. For the most part, the sets looked real and not like studios, the space battles still look just fine even in 2010. And this was with a smaller budget than VOY. I thought VOY's FX looked poor until about the fourth or fifth seasons, and it had nowhere near the amount of space scenes. DS9's frequent reuse of stock footage never bothered me; I probably wouldn't have noticed it unless I had read about it.

• I liked the setting on a station, the intricate backstory of the Cardassian occupation, the Bajoran political intrigue, and how the Bajoran religion played a role.

• the Dominion war was executed brilliantly, from the first subtle hints if the entity to the all out war by the end. What amazes me is that it was ad hoc: they didn't plan it out ahead if time. It just kind of came together despite the use of several writers.

• I loved Avery Brooks acting. At times he got a little too worked up and overly dramatic in his role, but he pulled it off like few others could. I think if he hadn't been the main guy, it wouldn't have been nearly as good. I think he deserves a lot if credit.

• so many recurring characters gave it a sense of "bigness" and realism. And you have to love Morn.

• I liked the way they altered the Ferengi from their silly TNG appearances. They were still slightly comical but not overly so. Quark even demonstrated he could choose to be good over hiding away and making profits.

• excellent, complex villians. Kai Winn, Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, were amazing and multidimensional. Even the Klingons such as Gowron, while an ally during the war, was not the best of allies. Even Martok stayed true to his roots by gloating at the destruction of Cardassia and drinking bloodwind while Sisko and Ross couldn't stomach the thought after seeing the devastation to their erstwhile enemies.

• most of the characters were good in the sense that they were pretty realistic and all changed/grew during the series. I'm not as fond if them as the VOY crew, but I appreciate their acting and development.

• I actually liked some of the Ferengi episodes, such as Love Songs, Little Green Men, and Magnifucent Ferengi. I think they struck a good balance of humor.

• I liked the interlude of the Klingon threat and the introduction of Worf. While Worf clearly was a ratings ploy and didn't have a real position ( "Strategic Operations Officer" sounds like Sisko made it up to keep him on board.), he brought a lot to the show.

Things I didn't like:

• Klingon-focused stories

• Klingon-Ferengi stories

• All the mirror episodes

• Odo exploring his "sexuality" as a changeling. That made no sense. I also though it aberrant for his character and quite tasteless (I'm specifically thinking of A Simple Investigation.)

• I know this was probably due to budget and for simplicity's sake, but I didn't like how Sisko almost had to run the war, coordinate intel, lead major battles, and conduct special ops. Why didn't Starfleet give him help? DS9 and the war were the most important location and serious threat, respectively, yet Sisko had to plan the minefield, plan and lead the attack to retake DS9, get the Romulans into the war, go on raids behind enemy lines, etc. That's a lot of responsibility for a recently promoted captain. Couldn't Starfleet afford to send him any support? Even DS9 usually had few ships defending it, even though it was on the front lines. At least Sisko & Friends (Dax, Garak, O'Brien, Bashir, Rom, Nog, and Odo) were up for handling almost everything themselves. About the only things they weren't responsible for was flying the rest of the fleet and infecting the Founders with the morphogenic virus!

• Finally, I didn't care for the all the "adult" content. It seemed tacky and unbecoming of Trek (though sexuality has been a part of Trek since TOS, I thought it got a little out of hand here: consider the fetish-filled mirror universe, ooh-mox, the many trysts, the holosuite programs — Vulcan Love Slave Part II, anyone? and the obession of getting a nude Kira holoprogram — and even the sexual connotations of the constant linking between Odo and the female Founder. And don't forget the ridiculous scene of a nude Leeta answering her door — as if anyone would forget they're nude coming out of a shower. And it wasn't that it didn't bother her or was part of her culture: once she "got it" she quickly covered up. But I guess that's all a part of it being "darker" and "edgier". And VOY-TNG don't have spotless records either.


Those things aside, it was one of the best shows ever.

Funny, though- it occurred to me just yesterday- Voyager is accused of being poorly written due to bad characterization, etc. while DS9 is praised for character development and story arcs. Now, to some extent, this is true- while VOY's "Oh, I've always had an interest in that!" plot-convenience issues were really common to all of Trek, but they did have character "Oh, yes, my recently deceased best friend I had for all of seasons 1-3 that you never saw" issues, admittedly. And DS9 clearly was far superior in the area of ongoing story arcs. (VOY only really had the Tom Paris insubordination/Seska-Kazon plotline, and maybe, say, the Borg children lameness.)

That said, though, it strikes me as ironic that VOY is the one criticized for it's lack of characterization... when DS9 had at least two major characters undergo radical, unexplained shifts of character- Bashir, indefinably around the second season, and very noticeably, Dax- who underwent a massive change in character as of Playing God and AGAIN as of The Ship- not to mention Worf, who was a very different character on TNG (for example, casual flings, holodeck sex, and Risan skinny-dipping with Dax... whereas in TNG, he 'slipped' and had a single fling with Khey'lar and immediately insisted they marry as it was the only honorable thing to do.)

Now, this is nothing against DS9, and as noted above, the general impressions do have some merit- but it is something I found ironic as DS9 had several wildly inconsistent and unexplained character shifts, yet it has the reputation of being better on characterization.

very noticeably, Dax- who underwent a massive change in character as of Playing God and AGAIN as of The Ship

This is actually explainable within the series itself. Remember, as of Emissary, Dax was newly joined with Jadzia. It's only logical that as time progresses and the symbiont and host merge together that the personality would change. In particular, the changes post-Playing God would appear to be more of the Dax symbiont coming through.

Yes, but suddenly, with no gradual shift, and without explanation? I mean, it's rationalizeable, admittedly, but I don't think it's very good - or consistent - character development. :-)

Worf, who was a very different character on TNG (for example, casual flings, holodeck sex, and Risan skinny-dipping with Dax... whereas in TNG, he 'slipped' and had a single fling with Khey'lar and immediately insisted they marry as it was the only honorable thing to do.)


I would say that the Worf thing was more him growing as a character than the writers being inconsistent. He wanted K'Ehleyr to take the marriage vows after they had sex, presumably his first sexual encounter. With Dax their relationship grew slowly over time & he eventually married her. I'd say that his relationship with Dax was more "honorable" than just immediately hooking up with a former GF the day that she showed up on the ship. Also Worf did skinny dip on the Holodeck with Deanna, Lwaxana Troi & Alexander in "New Ground."

Also Worf did skinny dip on the Holodeck with Deanna, Lwaxana Troi & Alexander in "New Ground."---Brian Fitzgerald

But that was a mud bath, not quite the same as the oceans of Risa, is it?

Also, Brian, since you apparently like to take a dip in the nip, which would you prefer, the ocean or in mud? And I'm talking about really clean, good quality mud here.

As for Worf, he once said that he did not care for swimming as it was too much like bathing. That was just a typical oddity of 1st Season TNG dialogue, which I already pointed out elsewhere.

Personally, if a planet like Pacifica or Risa really existed, and if we as humans had perfected interstellar travel, I'd be there in a heartbeat, know what I'm saying?

I actually would prefer a hot spring or hot tub to either the mud or the ocean. I've swam nude in the ocean on several occasions but prefer the warmer water of a hot tub or hot spring.

Hey, me too! I love hot tubs, but I've never been in a natural hot spring. That would be really great, I think.

I haven't been in a mud bath either, but i'd be willing to try it sometime.

Back to Trek. I thought Worf did not want to be naked anywhere, he said so in Nemesis. But the vast majority of the dialogue in that movie was completely out of character for the crew, including Picard rambling on about himself during the wedding reception and his telling Shinzon that trust was earned. Those two things were atypical of Picard's personality that had been portrayed during the series, it contradicted many things he had said previously!

So that's why I wonder if Worf would go for a naked swim on Risa, or if he would prefer to always be clothed. Which is it? Those writers, they sure do confuse the hell out of me, that's for sure!