I think it was a bit stupid the way the writers felt they needed to add "...the leader of the Klingon empire...."to Gowron's name.As if anyone didn't already know.

Also, when Worf slams Garak into the wall, the door of the Jeffries Tube falls off.And it doesn't look like a tunnel behind it.More like, oh, I don't know, A STUDIO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How could they miss something like that???????

Anyone notice how O'Brien is always the first target of a Jem'Hadar assault? ("Hippocartic Oath" & "To The Death" comes to mind)
Here, Garak is the 5th Defiant sabeteur; Kira in "Defiant", that Cardy villainess in "Destiny", Eddington in "The Die Is Cast", & a Changeling in "The Adversary", all from the 3rd season.
Now that Odo's a solid citizen, why didn't he pursue that Bajoran hooter-honey Garak offered him at the top of the show? (I know. Kira.)

Doesn't anybody find it a maaaaaaajor stretch the Founders can turn another Changeling into a human?

Not really. It's more like they forced him to
become human and then took away his shape
shifting abilities so that he would have to
remain human.

Thus, all the baby changeling had to do was give
him back his abilities.

Why is Bashir so irked about Garak being in the
Defiant's sickbay? Sisko allowed Garak to come
along on the mission provided he told Odo stories
to take his mind off his illness; Garak is doing
what he was asked to, and Odo is obviously
entertained. Everyone's happy, so what's Bashir
whining about? Did Sisko not tell him about this
arrangement?

Will you please watch you're language! Kids read these boards!

Garak pushes Odo's badge to contact Dr. Bashir that Odo needs medical treatment. I guess the Cardassians don't realize that the badge tap is just a habit.

So there is a Cardassian Embassy on Romulus? Was this established during the 53 year timespan that the Romulans had isolated themselves to focus on internal matters, or did the Romulans only isolate themselves from the Federation? If the Romulans had isolated themselves from everyone, and Garak was telling the truth about working as a 'gardener' at the embassy, then Garak is very old, or he had a very busy five years shuttling between, Romulus, Bajor and Cardassia Prime.

The female Changeling's face is smooth, but her hands have lots of wrinkles and other details.

WARNING!!! SPOILER FOR SEASON 5's IN PURGATORY'S SHADOW & BY INFERNO'S LIGHT!!!
The female Changeling tells Garak that Cardassia is dead, they were doomed since the attack. That Gul Dukat must be one smooth charmer then, since he somehow convinced the Founders to accept Cardassia as part of the Dominion. (Of course, she lied about there being no survivors of the Cardassian/Romulan attack, so this too could have been a lie.)

For attempting to destroy the Founders' new homeworld, Garak will be sentenced to 6 months in a holding cell. Certainly longer than Quark ever spent in a cell.

NANJAO:

Garak leers pretty convincingly at the Bajoran bit of fluff who offers to comfort Odo over his punishment from the Founders at the end of this episode. Watch his face instead of the girl's during this scene. Looks to me like a man who's about to be locked up without companionship for 6 months.

It's stuff like this that gives me a problem with the whole silly "Is Garak Gay?" debate. Just because you're a sensitive tailor who doesn't make an issue over relationships or allow people to get close to you does not make you gay.

Not that there's anything WRONG with that... ;)

Blame Andy. He's the one who plays him bi. :0)

Ooh, now I have to go post in "Past Prologue" and "Our Man Bashir" to point out my favorite Garak leer at a man, and my favorite Garak leer at a woman.

Whatever.

Criminy, Anonymous. Geez, this place has turned joyless in a very short time.

Mark Stanley tends to believe that the Garak character is bi. Andrew Robinson has said in interviews that Garak was omnisexual, for want of a better term. My own opinion is simply that Andrew Robinson is not the world's most butch heterosexual (though he's still hot) so most of his characters come out less than steroetypically heterosexual.

This was the subject of a big stu pid debate in the sink a long time ago, before my time. All the arguments have been hashed out there. I was just stating an opinion, Mark stated his, and it's all good. I still disagree with him, but being dismissive over an issue like this is just silly.

Where has all the whimsy gone?

"Mr. Worf, sometimes you're no fun at all." --Garak

Don't worry, Palandine, I have lots of whimsy left. :0)

I'm curious, have you ever met Andy? If not, you really should -- it's an experience and a half. He's a *huge* flirt, so while you can't get leered at by Garak, you can indeed get flirted with by Andy. (In an eminently genteel, respectful manner. Even in a comforting manner, if you're as terrified as I was when I met him.)

I would LOVE to meet Andrew Robinson, if only to tell him that "A Stitch in Time" was the only sci-fi novel I could ever get my dad to read and enjoy. I watch him in everything he's in on digital cable (which includes a lot of awful stuff, but he's always good in them--I was thrilled to discover the other day that he was the creepy military school barber in Child's Play III I think it was). That voice would just kill me; I'm sure I wouldn't be able to deal with it.

I avoid science fiction conventions like the plague, but I'd probably turn up to see (but again, I'd probably be too awe-stricken to MEET) either him or Marc Alaimo.

I guess I'll just have to settle with Hellraiser being on the Sci Fi Channel tonight...

Well, I don't need pro-gay trash here.

DNFTT

Did anyone ask about your needs, anonymous? Or perhaps "Fraidy Cat" would be a better name for you?

Ledderby, allow me to translate Palandine's comment:

Do Not Feed The Troll.

Thanks.

Ah yes, the gay bashing. Most likely cause; a fear, caused by lack of information and desire to learn, that one might "turn" gay.

Sorry, I know, don't feed the Troll. However, there is another philosophy. Stuff as much information down the Troll's throat until he chokes.

I know Merat, it's hard.

What amuses me is that people come in here up in arms about gay stuff but seem to have no problem with the Trek characters hosing members of other SPECIES, for Pete's sake, as long as they're of the opposite sex. How many of these narrow little people would say "well, gee, sure it's okay to have sex with a chimp or a dolphin, as long as it's not of the same sex." Criminy.

Words of wisdom: "Just repeat to yourself 'It's just a show. I should really just relax.'"

Everything I Ever Really Needed to Know I Learned From Joel, Mike, and the 'Bots.

Besides, who says that the MAJORITY of the Cardorkian population isn't bisexual? We know comparitivly little about that culture, despite having spent 5 years with them

That is the dumbest thing I have ever read in my entire life.

"Most likely cause; a fear, caused by lack of information and desire to learn, that one might "turn" gay."

Nope...just morals

NOW who's trolling, Merat? ;)

That debate's been done to death. My $.02 is that they are people with not as much a sense of personal space as humans (I've noticed in a lot of scenes that they seem to stand uncomfortably close to people they're talking to). Some of them go for flamboyant gestures (the undeniably butch Dukat makes one of the prissiest hand gestures I've ever seen in the Jem'Hadar, part II when Sisko tells him he's in Dutch with the Cardies again). Garak seems to like making people uncomfortable for his own advantage. And, like whoever said in that sink thread, sexual mores are different across species--Klingon women look like they'd not be much interested in men, but they seem to be nevertheless. So, no, all evidence to the contrary, I don't think they made Garak out to be gay.

Your mileage may vary. It's fun to discuss, I just can't believe how clenched up some men get about this subject.

{Gul Garrison, if there was ever a South Park/DS9 crossover}I am NOT gay!{/Gul Garrison}

Boy, you want to see gay subtext, though, watch some epsidoes of Alien Nation when they show it on the Sci Fi channel.

Anon#whatever. How is that the dumbest thing you have ever read? If it is about my hypothesis that its possible for a large portion of Cardassians to be bisexual, then explain why they can't be. Show me something in Deep Space Nine that says they are not. Would it surprise you to find out that many cultures on Earth permit multiple marriages? Would it be dumb to say that the VAST majority of species engage in multiple matings? Woule it surprise you to find that there are some species who actually ARE bisexual as a rule? How about the fact that there are some species that can change their sex? Just because something is not part of YOUR culture or YOUR biology does not make it impossible nor dumb. And if it was about the "Cardorkians," then it was a joke.

Ahhh morals. The same morals that say, "Thou shalt not kill" but have a corollary that reads "unless you happen to disagree with their lifestyle?"

In any case, this is my position as a heterosexual male. Straight? Ok. Gay? Ok. Bi? Ok. Your views are your own. I respect them, however, I will argue with them if I believe that they are wrong, and will lead to misery.

By the way, sorry about the multiple posts in so short a time.

Merat -- if this Anonymous is the same Anonymous who was being cranky over on the TNG board under the "The Outcast" topic, I'd suggest not bothering, since freedom of religion is not something Anonymous accepts. (Though being called on the hypocrisy of being cranky about gay stuff but not het-and-unmarried stuff shut Anonymous up there.)

Bringing this back to some semblance of topic :0) I'd remind Anonymous that we're talking about *Garak* here. Even if the human right-wing Christian concept of the fate of his immortal soul were a concern for him, I'd think he'd be much more worried about the whole canonical "torturer and killer" thing than about interpretations of his sexual orientation.

However, I think the possibility that Garak is a right-wing Christian is fairly remote, considering he's an alien.

Because of his condition Odo can't be transported to the Defiant so he has to walk. Why not use a wheelchair or some like device? If moving makes Odo's illness worse why make him walk all the way from the infirmary to the Defiant?

Dave, this is a walk of honor for Odo. Like Alec Guiness walking out of the sweatbox in "Bridge on the River Kwai."

Six months in a holding cell, huh? Wouldn't that be a problem for Mr. Claustrophobic?

Probably, yes. However, nobody but Garak knew he was claustrophobic at this point. (Ironic, since he did say he was snooping around phaser control because his quarters on the Defiant were "claustrophobic.")

It wasn't enough of a problem to give him an attack, though, since in "By Inferno's Light," he says to himself, "You haven't had one of these attacks in *years*."

But it would certainly be worse for him than for a non-claustrophobic person.

I'm not claustrophobic, but I think I'd go crazy being trapped six months in Odo's holding cells. Look how small they are.

Yeah, I'd go bonkers, too, in one of those little holding cells.

But Garak apparently has *amazing* self-control -- I'm not claustrophobic, but I used to have an extremely severe phobia, so I know what it feels like to be exposed to the object of a phobia and have to attempt to control oneself.

At least he would have something to do -- he had to make Odo some clothes.

So THAT'S why Odo didn't immediately lock Garak up, even though Garak could might have gotten the Defiant crew killed and started a war with the Dominion. He wanted a hand-made uniform to wear.

Deleted line: "Solid, baby!" Odo

Spoiler for 6th/7th season episodes...


Presumably it is here that the Great Link is infected with Section 31's Changeling virus, which they infected Odo with in "Homefront".

Treklore has always implied a closer relationship exists between the Cardassians and the Romulans, eg, the alliance agaist the Founders. After all, both Empires share a common enemy in the Khitomer Alliance.

Why was it necessary to have Odo walk across the promenade from sickbay to the Defiant? Given his condition, wouldn't it have been better to stretcher him out?

They might very well have intended to, but given how proud Odo is, he might've refused it.

Given the fact that they offered to clear the Promenade for him but he refused, I can see that being a true.

They want to bring Odo to the planet to pass judgement on him because other than Odo, "no changeling has ever harmed another."

I don't know...they infect him with some sort of sickness which is clearly causing him pain and will eventually kill him. The female changeling seemed like she was willing to let him die if he didn't agree to join the link. Sure sounds to me like they were harming him. I guess the founders didn't really think their plan through very well.

The founders were willing to make an exception in Odo's case, seeing how he was the first to ever harm another changeling.

I believe their problem was that no Changeling had ever harmed another prior to Odo accidentally killing the Krjensky Changeling in The Adversary.

Keep in mind that they always say that no changeling has ever harmed another, not killed. Odo's only crime is breaking this rule, so I find it odd that they are willing to go ahead and break this rule too before passing judgement on him.

Unless maybe when they say "harmed" they really do mean "killed." If I recall correctly the Krajenski changeling stabbed Odo with his hand at one point and it looked kind of painful.

If someone KILLED you, that would be pretty HARMFUL to your existance wouldn't it?

Of course. What I mean is they say no changeling ever harmed another but they only seem to care if a changeling KILLS another one. By this episode, Odo's been harmed at least twice by other changelings and no one seems to care.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Krajenski changeling's mission was to start a war between the Federation and the Tzenkethi by hijacking the Defiant and sending it to attack their homeworld. This would probably have resulted in the eventual Destruction of the Defiant with all hands, Odo included.

So if the Defiant crew had been a little less observant, Odo may have ended up dead at tha hands of a changeling. In Broken Link, Odo was again faced with the possibility of dying at the hands of the changelings.

So what I think is that despite the Founders quoting their no harming rule, were not actually so concerned with it as they were with the fact that Odo had killed a Founder and foiled their plan.

Say, Lee Wilson mind me askn what was your first Trek you remember how old and where you at?

There's no reason to conclude that Defiant would've been destroyed. He could've programmed it to destroy whatever it needed to before returning DS9.

So when Odo is made a solid, the "female" changling says they gave him what he wanted. So why would he want to be *human*? Wouldn't he want to be Bajoran, the better to get in Kira's pants?

Laforge the Useless, I started watching Star Trek regularly sometime around when The Best of Both Worlds came out, but I don't remember exactly when, or which episode was the first one I saw. Before that, I had occasionally seen various episodes of TOS during the 80s. Let That Be Your Last Battlefield stands out in my memory, probably because of the distinctive makeup.

And to continue what I was saying before, in The Adversary, the Krajenski changeling painfully stabbed Odo with his hand in main engineering. If Odo had backed off and given up at that point, then the Krajenski changeling would have been the only changeling ever to harm another. I wonder if he would have gotten some sort of small punishment for it (if he managed to survive the Defiant's attack on the Tzenkethi).

My feeling is that he wouldn't have. My point with these posts is that I think the founders are only using the "no changeling has ever harmed another" thing as an excuse to stop Odo (or any other changeling) from messing with their plans, and that really they had no real qualms about harming or killing Odo if he acted against them.

Nit pick: the Founders stole Odo's comm-badge. It obviously is too complex a mechanism (a sub-space transceiver with a built-in basic computer) for Odo to "create" out of his form.

Odo walked into the Great Link while wearing it on the part of his body that he was using to simulate a uniform, and when the Changelings ejected him in solid form, he was naked, and there was no commbadge on him.

Ergo, the Founders absconded with the commbadge, or disintegrated it - maybe it was like a candy bar. (What do changelings use for sustenance, anyway? Solar energy? Cosmic background radiation?)

Gcapp: What do changelings use for sustenance, anyway?
I don't believe they require sustenance, at least I don't recall it being stated. I think they get everything they need when they regenerate.

The commbadge has been a re-occuring nit both in the guide and here. It wouldn't be I suppose if Odo never used it but he does. Some have counted that off by Odo saying moved his commbadge inside him, which could work in some instances but not all.

During the conversation aboard the Defiant, soon after their arrival in the Gamma Quadrant, Bashir mentions Dominion "airspace", rather than space.

Do the Founders require an Earthlike atmosphere and temperature in order to survive? If not, its very considerate of them to always form the Great Link on an M-Class planet, so that humanoid visitors don't need to bother bringing space suits.

Odo said in the pilot that he was found adrift in 2356 in the Denorios Belt, and Changelings have been shown to be able to survive in the vacuum of space, in episodes like Chimera.

Of course we later find out that the Female Founder LIED to Odo about giving him the disease.

Odo got it from Section 31.

Odo then passed it onto the Female Founder who then passed it onto The Great Link

(Not a nit...just an observation)

When did the Female Founder tell Odo that she gave him the disease? As I recall, it was Bashir who told Odo this via long-distance communication when Odo was on that mission to Cardassia in the finale arc.

The Female Founder is not known for honesty in this episode. When Garak asks her if any Cardassians survived the attack that took place in The Die Is Cast, she tells him that none of them did.

Of course, we find out later it was a lie, there WERE survivors, as Garak was later to find out himself (In Purgatory' Shadow).

It's clear she lied to Garak out of spite. Her comment "Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us." fit this episode. We learn that the Dominion was behind the Klingons attacking Cardassia (the Changling posing as General Martok no doubt prodded Gowron into launching the attack).

I was under the impression that the disease the Founders gave Odo is different from the one Section 31 gave him.

RE: Luigi...This episode...Broken Link....when the Female Shape Shifter visited Odo on the Defiant

What the Great Link did to Odo in Broken Link had nothing to do with the disease that later infected them. What happened in Broken Link was that the Founders made it difficult for him to maintain a humanoid form, in order to compel him to return to the Great Link to be judged for killing the Founder in The Adversary. The disease that Starfleet later devised, however, had the opposite effect: It made Changelings unable to return to a gelatinous state, and only appeared later, during the series finale arc. Two different things.

Tim: It's clear she lied to Garak out of spite.
Luigi Novi: Or simply because she didn't want it known that the Founders had prisoners.

Thanks for the explanation. I thought they were the same illness

Luigi Novi: Or simply because she didn't want it known that the Founders had prisoners.

That is possible. Perhaps when Dukat was negotiating Cardassia's joining the Dominion, the Founders then told him they were holding Cardassian prisoners from their failed attack. They then offered to free them when Cardassia became part of the Dominion, which they did. Clearly Dukat knew about the prisoners by the time of By Inferno's Light, when Cardassia becomes the Dominion's only Alpha Quadrant member. Furthermore, he knew that Garak was a prisoner, because he made it clear that the Dominion could hang on to him.

Now that was spite.

Given that Dukat hated Garak's guts, it's not surprising he did this (plus it would make sure Garak never got near Ziyal again).

After Odo is transformed into a solid, Dr. Bashir scans him, and makes a big deal out of how he can now detect all of these internal organs in Odo, but this shouldn't be anything unusual. It's been an established plot point that you can't tell the difference between a changeling and a solid by scanning them with a tricorder. Someone might claim that maybe Bashir's medical tricorder does a more thorough scan than the standard field tricorder, but if identifying a changeling were as simple as getting another tricorder, why bother with all of the blood tests?

Odo's ability to mimic solids is somewhat limited. It's quite likely that he didn't bother imitating internal organs, which would not be visible from the outside anyway. Now that he is a solid, those organs show up when he is being scanned. The Founders are much better at it and WOULD perfectly immitate solid anatomy.