Actually, the title is just Bar Association (no The)

I remember wondering if the Federation had anything like a Bureau of Labor Management. Even if the Federation's economic system is communist (this is not political) there should be some group that helps solve labor disputes. Admittedly a bar on the outskirts of the Federation might not be important, but if such a group existed it should have been mentioned during the debates over the strike.

Given it wasn't mentioned, that would seem to imply it doesn't exist. Or maybe it wasn't mentioned because it's a Bajoran station and the bar is a business run by a non-member of the Federation.

This whole premise was based on the fact that ferengi's can't have unions.But a lot of Quarks workers were non-ferengi, so does that mean they can't because they're working for a ferengi?

Regarding O'Brien picking a fight with Worf and Bashir gets in the middle and they all wind up in the brig: How exactly did the fight start? Without knowing how or why, this supposedly cute scene was totally pointless. I know it was a plot contrivance for Worf to take up quarters on the Defiant.

Apparently the fight started when O'Brien and Bashir were placing bets on who was going into Quarks bar. When Worf came along, O'Brien betted he wouldn't go in; he would support the strike. When he saw Worf go in, he said something like 'We'll see about that...', and I think he went to stop Worf with force. Bashir went to stop him, O'Brien and Worf ended up in a fight, Bashir tried to intervene, got caught up in the crossfire and the three of them ended up in the brig.

Quark says his options are to cut everyone's salaries by a third or fire half the staff. Everytime I try to figure out how that statement adds up my brain hurts. It is possible for the amount saved to be the same using the third/half statement?

Wasn't Dr. Bashir's suggestion of a Union a violation of the Prime Directive?

That thief was really having a bad day. He robs Worf's quarters, happens to be making his getaway over the hallway where Worf is walking, and Worf had just finished Bat'leth practice. Of course, some could argue that he was very lucky since the worst that seemed to happen to him was being thrown in the brig.

Did the access panel open just because Worf tapped it with his bat'leth, or did he use his bat'leth to hit the 'lock'? Personally, I would be very nervous to walk the halls of a station where accidentally hitting an overhead access panel would cause it to open, especially if someone, or something, were on top of it.

Shouldn't the Nausicaan 'door opener' trigger some kind of security alarm?

Why are the Ferengi against Unions? Unions can be just as corrupt and exploitative as any business. (Even more so, since the worker has to pay for the 'privilege' of belonging to the Union.)

Unions must be really, really offensive to Ferengi culture, since ever since the show began, Quark has been breaking the naked females rule. (Or does Ferengi culture allow for 'dressing' bars? "Come one come all! Fifty lovely females putting on clothes for your enjoyment!")

Quark says the FCA answers to no one. I believe in a later episode, the Grand Nagus indicates that he could have overturned an FCA ruling if he wished.

If Odo caught Brunt and the Nausicaans beating up Quark, then why does he need Quark to file charges? Isn't assault and battery a crime regardless of whether or not the victim files charges? Or is this some peculiar Bajoran law? ("I'm afraid you're going to have to let the prisoner go, Odo. The man he beat up is brain damaged and doesn't remember the attack happening.")

Was it just me or did the Nausicaans look different than pervious Nausicaans? (Of course, Nausicaan games are supposed to be painful so maybe their faces look different because they were bobbing for boiled eggs?)

So why wasn't Leeta taking part in this Bajoran Cleansing ceremony?

If Worf's quarters are now on the Defiant, where does he stay when he's on the station and the Defiant is zipping along in the Gamma quadrant?

Why are the Ferengi against Unions? Unions can be just as corrupt and exploitative as any business. (Even more so, since the worker has to pay for the 'privilege' of belonging to the Union.)

Well, the creators have gone to great length to portray as practicioners of Adam Smith's "minimum state." They certainly qualify as the 24th Century equivalent of neo-conservatives (neoclassical liberals). In any event neo-cons view wage demands by unions as inflationary - since they are not related to productivity or any other market determinations of wages. They believe that unions inherently cause market inefficiency, and thus are not big on supporting labour rights.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you think union dues are used for other than for strike pay and pensions and the like.

And incidentally, shouldn't the Nausicaans been anti-Ferengi, who no doubt consider environmental regulations "bad for business"? I would assume that the Nausicaans ARE from the Valley of the Wind. If you can pick up on that allusion, you win a prize.

The Ferengi certainly don't have a 'minimum state'. They claim to believe in the free market (and the writers seem to think they do), but in practice they believe in profit by any means necessary, including extortion and fraud. If they have a 'minimum state', what's the FCA for? Why is there a Grand Nagus, anyway? (In "The Dogs of War", Quark says that "As Nagus, people will be lining up to do business with me." Ignoring his terrible grammar for the moment, why _would_ they line up to do business with him?)

The typical classical-liberal objection to unions is not that they cause wage inflation _per se_ but that they're price-fixing conspiracies. But the typical classical-liberal response to price-fixing conspiracies is to ignore them and let them break up as soon as one of the people greedy enough to fix prices gets greedy enough to undercut the others.

In fact, the existence of Ferengi laws _mentioning_ unions exposes the fiction of their 'free-market' system. In a free market, anyone can enter almost any kind of business contract with anyone else, including a contract saying "If we don't get the raise we're asking for within the next week, we'll stop coming to work." So if "a contract is a contract is a contract", what's with the restrictions on certain types of contracts?

(And don't get me started on the FCA's ability to confiscate assets arbitrarily. That would be the _first_ thing to go in a free market.)

Well put Mark Wells. I just saw the episode today and all it did was remind me of my previous rant about how the Ferengi are anything but a free-market people despite the "best" efforts of the writers. Josh has fallen into the same trap the writers have; that of believing that the depiction of the Ferengi is that of a 24th century version of capitalism. The Ferengi, quite simply, are how people on the intellectual left wish to regard people in the world of commerce; it's their straw-man, in effect.

Where did the Ferengi ever claim to believe in a free market?

I don't know, but the writers sure tricked poor old Josh up there into thinking so...

>Well, the creators have gone to great length to
>portray [the Ferengi] as practicioners of Adam
>Smith's "minimum state."

... given that Adam Smith's vision of the minimum state is what we today call a free market.


At any rate Rene, your question is like asking "Where/when did the Romulons ever claim to be a representation of the Roman Republic?" Well of course they never did but it's quite evident that that's what the writers intended, just as they intended the Ferengi to be a representation of the world of commerce. The big difference of course is that they did fairly well in the former but horribly in the latter.

Ah...so now you can read the writers' minds, huh?

Rene,

I've got a suggestion for you;

Become a philosopher.

So basically your nit is,

"Hey! I think the writers were thinking apples were orange when they wrote this episode...But the episode clearly states there are no orange apples." Great way to find nits.

What nit? Did I mention a nit? I sure don't remember mentionning a nit. The Ferengi are internally consistant in general terms, so there's no nit there. Just that their portrayal leaves much to be desired. You could say that whoever dreamed them up was a nit-wit, though.

Anyway, it's good to see that you've taken your first steps towards a long and illustrious career in philosophy.

I don't know what your philosopher comment is supposed to mean, but since none of your comments so far have made sense, I don't care.

Neither do yours, so for once I agree with you.

Well put Mark Wells. I just saw the episode today and all it did was remind me of my previous rant about how the Ferengi are anything but a free-market people despite the "best" efforts of the writers. Josh has fallen into the same trap the writers have; that of believing that the depiction of the Ferengi is that of a 24th century version of capitalism. The Ferengi, quite simply, are how people on the intellectual left wish to regard people in the world of commerce; it's their
straw-man, in effect.

Ah, yes, the "intellectual left:" the source of all our problems. The Ferengi are cartoonish versions of Hobbesian businessmen, looking out for their own interests, often at the expense of others. And the FCA exists to enforce contracts, without which Ferengi commerce could not function.

... given that Adam Smith's vision of the minimum state is what we today call a free market.

Oh, well done! And just like the minimum state, the "free market" can exist only as in idealization.

I love the way Rom stands up to Quark in this episode.

I must say that Leeta has some nice...um...er assets. (That tight outfit she wears...MMMM!)

KAM: Wasn't Dr. Bashir's suggestion of a Union a violation of the Prime Directive?

d31: No, because (1) the Ferengi are warp-capable and (2) the Ferengi are clearly aware of unions, they have just decided to make them illegal. Bashir was not the one acting to change the Ferengi government or society, Rom was.

KAM: Shouldn't the Nausicaan 'door opener' trigger some kind of security alarm?

d31: Perhaps it overrode the security sensors somehow.

Why are the Ferengi against Unions? Unions can be just as corrupt and exploitative as any business. (Even more so, since the worker has to pay for the 'privilege' of belonging to the Union.)

d31: I gathered this is because the Ferengi want business people to do the exploiting, they do not want workers to do it, even to themselves. That leaves less money for businesses to take from them.

Unions must be really, really offensive to Ferengi culture, since ever since the show began, Quark has been breaking the naked females rule. (Or does Ferengi culture allow for 'dressing' bars? "Come one come all! Fifty lovely females putting on clothes for your enjoyment!")

d31: Perhaps Sisko(and maybe even before him, Dukat) did not allow Quark to adhere to this rule.

If Worf's quarters are now on the Defiant, where does he stay when he's on the station and the Defiant is zipping along in the Gamma quadrant?

I don't know how many times after this the Defiant went somewhere without Worf, but if for any reason he did not go along, perhaps he could make arrangements to temporarily stay on the station.

Moderator? This episode's title did not have the word "the" in it.

d31: No, because (1) the Ferengi are warp-capable and (2) the Ferengi are clearly aware of unions, they have just decided to make them illegal. Bashir was not the one acting to change the Ferengi government or society, Rom was.
Luigi Novi: Moreover, he suggested doing on a Bajoran space station under Federation control; not on Ferenginar or in all of Ferengi society.

d31: I gathered this is because the Ferengi want business people to do the exploiting, they do not want workers to do it, even to themselves. That leaves less money for businesses to take from them.
Luigi Novi: Plus, you have to remember that it ties into the liberal politics of Trek, which tends to be anti-corporate, anti-capitalism, etc.

I would also imagine that because Quark's is an open bar whose interior is visible by the Promenade, that he would have to either close the doors and windows in order to keep nude employees around (as, for example, his holosuites are), which he wouldn't want to do, since it might be harder to entice customers, or keep 'em clothed, since he had to run his place by Cardassian and then Bajoran/Federation rules, not Ferengi ones.

The title of this board has had 'the' in it for almost eight years(see first post) Maybe corrupt Ferengi businesspeople are keeping it that way......

The very first post on this board mentions that.

Happy now? :P

Yes. Thank you for meeting our union demands.

I'm sorry Luigi, but your union contract has the following nits. In paragraph 4, subsection 7, it clearly states that all nitpickers shall bow before the red letter header man. Yet, it does not state without a doubt who that man is. Furthermore...

D'Oh!

Maybe there's a split meaning in the title, that of intelligence. whether rom is smart enough that is...

This episode was directed by the actor who played Lt. Commander Geordi LaForge on Star Trek The Next Generation.

Quark says the FCA answers to no one. I believe in a later episode, the Grand Nagus indicates that he could have overturned an FCA ruling if he wished.

Yes, Zek said he would not intervene to restore Quark's business licence(in Ferengi Love Songs, I think) which suggests that he could if he wanted to.

No one in the Union seemed to consider any sort of legal action against Quark to force him to provide better benefits, or any sort of third-party arbitration. Why didn't Sisko offer his services as a mediator?

Doesn't this episode suggest that the Federation does use some kind of medium of exchange? Why would Sisko threaten to collect rent or ask for reimbursement of repair costs if they didn't?

It is possible for the amount saved to be the same using the third/half statement?

I had assumed that Quark was being sarcastic about the firing part to make a point. Even if he meant it, it doesn't have to add up to be true. Perhaps layoffs to save enough money to equal one third of his salary costs would leave him in too inefficient a position to keep the bar open, so he would layoff more people and have the bar open less.

I don't see what legal action they could've taken; as for arbitration, both parties would have to agree to it, and since Quark is a devout Ferengi, I doubt he'd ever consent to it.

Couldn't the Union have sued Quark in a Bajoran court?(certainly not a Ferengi court)

Sisko could bully Quark into accepting arbitration(just like he bullied him into talking to Rom)

But under what law?

Perhaps a minimum wage law? An unfair contract? An anti-Union busting law? Sue to prevent a foreign government agent(Brunt) from exerting authority in Bajoran space?

It's entirely possible they don't have any sorts of laws like that, it was just a thought.

Minimum Wage. I would imagine that if there is a minimum wage, that Quark already pays it. If he didn't they could just report him to the authorities. Waiters and hosts (unless they work on commission), usually get minimum or more as it is, don't they?

Contract. I'm not sure if they even had a contract. (Did they mention anything about one?) If they did, then the question would be raised of why they signed it in the first place. I mean, do hosts and waiters really work on contracts?

Union-busting law. When you mentioned legal action, I thought you were referring to Quark's refusal to meet their demands. Whether he tried to bust their union could be a question, because it was Brunt who did this, and he actually attakced Quark as a tactic, and threated the Union, rather than Quark doing this to them. There are already laws against physical assualt, threat, etc., and Brunt and his thugs should've been prosecuted under those (one of the nits I wrote in my Nitpick Document for this ep is that Quark tells Nog that he won’t press charges against them for assaulting him, even though Odo should be able to do so himself because he witnessed the attack). However, this would not affect Quark.

Foreign influence. This would only work if Bajor have Ferenginar have diplomatic relations, and belong to some interstellar court system. This wouldn’t be necessary anyway, since, as aforementioned, Brunt and his thugs should’ve been thrown in jail and prosecuted for breaking the law in Bajoran/Federation space. But in either case, I think the threat that Brunt and the FCA represented to the most-Ferengi union (though I don’t know if it was explicitly stated in the episode), was that they could make like difficult for any family members that they had back home on Ferenginar. The episode could’ve avoided the nit about Quark not pressing charges against the thugs, in fact, if they just had Brunt make this threat.

I agree that there are laws that could’ve been brought up; I’m just not sure that these ones would’ve worked.

I think contracts for Quark's workers have been mentioned in other eps. Not sure if one was mentioned here, or not.

I seem to think there was an earlier episode where a Dabo girl went to Sisko because she discovered there was a clause where she had to sleep with Quark, but I can't remember the episode title.

Rom also mentioned a provision of his contract in the beginning of the episode(talking to Bashir) relating to no sick time, no vacations, etc.

I wonder if the Bajorans would have a law requiring sick time(paid or unpaid)? I would guess not, since Quark doesn't give it. Perhaps Leeta should have lobbied the Chamber of Ministers.

Thinking about it, I wonder if the Bajorans do have some sort of relations or treaty with the Ferengi, since no one seems to object to Brunt exerting authority on the station, at least until he has Quark beat up, and even then Quark says the FCA will just send someone else. Perhaps there is a treaty saying FCA officials can apply their rules to Ferengi-owned businesses in Bajoran space?

As always, thanks for your comments.

After the assault, couldn't the Bajoran government have expelled Brunt and the Nausicaans from Bajoran space, whether they were charged or not? (perhaps declaring them persona non grata?) No one brought this up anyway("Uh, Brother, Major Kira said she was going to kick Brunt off the station.")

Minimum Wage. I would imagine that if there is a minimum wage, that Quark already pays it. If he didn't they could just report him to the authorities. Waiters and hosts (unless they work on commission), usually get minimum or more as it is, don't they?

They get paid a special minimum wage for tipped employees of 2.13 per hour, rather than the normal minimum wage of 5.15 per hour. Of course that's here in the US, not bajorian space.

Unless their tips plus their wage do not equal the minimum wage- then their employer must make up the difference.

Thanks for the info on the contracts, guys. Yeah, that woman complained to Sisko in an earlier first season ep, I believe.

This episode marks Leeta's first love interest in Rom