Anybody notice that the old Jake looks and sounds a hell of a lot like Worf's brother Kurn.Wonder why.....

The old Jakce also sounds a lot like the Hirogen hunter in Voyager. So? :P

Since we now know about Sisko's heritage, does the bond between Jake and Benjamin now rest on their "Prophet" natures rather than a simple warp core breach blocker?

Does Sisko become a Prophet by being "The Visitor?" If so, why does he need to be more "corporeal" and history must reset? (Keep in mind: no Dominion War, a stronger alliance between the Bajorans and the Cardassians, etc.)

He was a prophet of things that happened after he disappered.Just his being there could have changed the course of the future history.For one thing, it was him who convinced Gowron to re-sign the khitomer accords.

Isn't it intriguing that Jake married a Bajoran despite never having been back to Bajor? That can only mean two things- either Jake has a big nose-ridge fetish, or "You know, my father was the Emissary of the Prophets" is a killer pickup line!

Love is illogical, even amoung the Vulcans.

How come in the time-line after Sisko disappeared, Nog goes from starting the academy to captain, and Dax only goes from liutenant commander to commander?

It's possible she has some indiscretions on her permanent record, like Worf.

Nog's also very good at brown-nosing, thanks to his Ferengi background. I'm sure that would help things a lot.

and maybe a quota going on as well.

If the gravity of the wormhole increased, then what happened to the communications relay?

The Bajorans must have really been desperate to sign a mutual defense pact with the Cardassians. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the Cardassians are to the Bajorans, what the Nazis are to the Jewish people.

When Sisko reappears for the 2nd time, the Closed Captioning shows [No time for reunions], but I don't remember hearing that.

Melanie says that Sisko would always appear near Jake "Even though the accident happened hundreds of light years away." Since the accident happened in the Gamma quadrant, I would say at least 70,000 light years away.

Personally I thought Jake seemed over emotional in this episode, but then my father is still alive. Sisko on the other hand seemed awfully calm and relaxed.

This episode starts at night, then toward the end we see the morning light and Jake tells Melanie that he was working on the last story this morning. I suppose after midnight you can technically refer to the time as morning, but usually people wait until dawn to do that.

When explaining the link between his father and himself, I believe, Jake uses the analogy of a rubber band saying that if he snaps it when it is tightest it will send Sisko back to the time of the accident. Jake must not play with very many rubber bands. (But then this is the 24th century.) If the subspace link is like a rubber band then Sisko should be snapped to about 60 or 70 years before the accident, with additional snaps back & forth before stopping. Hmmm, maybe that is why Sisko didn't remember appearing in Jake's room the first time he appeared, it hadn't happened yet.

How did Jake know, that this was the day that his father would reappear? It didn't seem like he appeared on any kind of schedule.

Jake knew when his father would appear because he spent a good part of his life studying the wormhole and the anomaly his father was trapped in. That's how he was able to make his previous attempt to save his father on the Defiant. He knew that his father would appear again if he failed that time, but that it would be decades and it would be the last chance (if Jake was still alive).

Cableface:

How come in the time-line after Sisko disappeared, Nog goes from starting the academy to captain, and Dax only goes from liutenant commander to commander?

Because Dax is a science officer, and Nog is on the command track. You don't get into the higher ranks in areas other than command unless you become something of a legend (like most of the TOS crew.)

Or maybe Dax made it to commander, got a nice cushy job as an Academy professor that lasted her up until a certain age, and then she retired. Hence, when Nog called the Defiant back into service for Jake's rescue mission, he extended an invitation to Dax (and Bashir) to join them. As per Kirk and McCoy in past TNG episodes and movies, they accepted this invitation and re-entered service with whatever rank they had at retirement.

Or maybe she did a Riker and kept turning down captaincies of ships and stayed commander, constantly damaging her Starfleet career, never getting any higher in rank.

Phil comments how Jake's novel, Anslem, is the one we see him forced to write later on in the season when that woman arrives at DS9 and almost kills him in the process.
He is writing it on DS9 yet doesn't finish it. But in this episode, he tells the girl visitor he wrote it "in this house".

(Finale Spoilers)

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Poor Jake -- he went to all that trouble and sacrificed himself to bring his father back, and three years later, he loses him again. (Well, not *again*, since he doesn't remember that timeline, but...)

It probably would have been better for the galaxy if he'd left well enough alone. I'm sure the Cardassians would have appreciated it.

It is an interesting counterpoint to TOS "City On The Edge Of Forever", though -- here the protaganist unwittingly sacrifices whole worlds out of love for his father.

I don't know why but that photo of Sisko with Jake at the start reminds of me how RuPaul looks without make-up.

The new DS-9 Guide reveals that Rachel Robinson, the actress who plays the young fan, is Andy Robinson (Garak's) daughter. Interesting.

Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine have remained my favorite Star Trek series. Star Trek: Voyager, in my humble opinion, has never caught on for me due to its lack of omnificent roots, particularly when the creators/writers made the obvious transition to T&A by introducing Jeri Ryan's character. That is not the point of this post, though. Out of all the episodes of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, I must admit that this is the most captivating, kenspeckle episode for me. I viewed it from the very inception to its greatly emotional denouement. As a matter of fact, I could not refrain from crying when the elderly Jake bid his father farewell and assured him that his death would catapult Capt. Benjamin Sisko back to the incident that commenced it all. This is a well-written and well-acted episode. Does anyone happen to know the various sobriquets (names) pertaining to the writers to this particular episode? It progressively evolved into quite a fascinating concept during the course of the episode. Thank you in advance.

I believe the difference between DS9 and Voyager can be summed up in a sentence found on page 255 of the DS9 Companion, "the writers [of DS9] chose to focus their efforts on doing episodes that they were proud of, rather than pulling weekly stunts for the sake of ratings."

Unfortunately, your assessment Rene is all too correct.

Unfortunate?
But it's true, if a little idealistic.

(The DS9 companion is really good, btw. If you are a DS9 fan and haven't got it, why not? [That'll be fifty bucks, please, ta ])

Loved the episode. One of the truly great episodes of Star Trek that the Creators can be proud of. Shame it was snubbed at the Hugos. Say what you will about Avery Brooks, he was magnificent in this episode.

Some wishful thinking about the episode: wouldn't it be interesting if, in the alternate future, we instead saw a later Dax host in place of Jadzia? (Not that I am disrespectful in any way; I absolutely love Jadzia, and want to father her children - it just seems odd, what with her being in a dangerous job such as a Starfleet officer in an important sector in space... ) Of course, why did they stick with Jadzia? Two reasons: a) cost of hiring another actor, and b) we love Jadzia!
Reason a) also explains why an adult didn't play Captain Nog, but apparently TPTB preferred if the old Jake, with aged make-up, was played by an adult - I mean, look at the way they handled "Too Short A Season" (TNG)...

Plus, Tony Todd is a good actor, although I wonder if it would it have been easier for Jake to make his father appear by simply looking in a mirror and shouting "Emissary" five times...

I'm gone...

What??!

You mean this episode isn't about Major Kira at all?!

[think about it]

Sven -- an adult *did* play Captain Nog. An adult has been playing Nog since the first episode. (Aron Eisenberg is just a very *short* adult.)

Also, Kira did have a role in this episode. Sort of took the role of Jake's mother when she tells him that "when I tell you to go, you will go."

Yeah Mark, but don't you think a bigger Nog might work too? (Not that I doubt Eisenberg's acting abilities - he's good, if a little short for a Stormtrooper...)

norman, I'm aware of Kira's all-important role as Jake's guardian. (Go away, spoiler patrol! - anyway, where was I? Ah yes,) My comment was meant for comic relief, to lighten up everyone's day...

Do you get the joke now?

(It's ruined now! Ruined! Thanx a bunch, guys!!)

What joke? :p

A man & a chicken walk into a bar...

[with great restraint]

This will take a while, so grab a nice warm drink, sit down comfortably somewhere, and I'll begin...

Remarking on Phil's comment how people knew the Wormhole underwent subspace inversion every 50 years (or something) having only discovered it for the best part of four - that's the same reason as to why we reckon things happen in our past several millions of years before intelligent thought came into being in Homo sapiens. It's because the scientists can extrapolate current findings and turn them into scientific predictions. How do we know when the first solar eclipse of the Fourth Millennium of the Christian calendar will be, and from where it can be seen? Scientists can try and work these things out from banging simple rocks together firstly (metaphorically speaking, of course...). It also explains how Old Jake knows when his father will see him for the last time, and thus time things perfectly (not that I'm a temporal astrophysicist, I don't know how these things work...) - he can work this out. After all, didn't he lose his marriage from studying temporal astrophysics-related subjects at the Academy in an alternate future?


So... who was the Visitor that the episode title suggests? Is it Melanie, the young woman played by Andy's daughter Rachel who visits old Jake in his dying hours? Is it Benjamin Sisko, who briefly visits his son during key moments in his life, then vanishes?


I reckon it's actually Major Kira.


[hint hint, as in can you take a... oh never mind :P]

How do you make that grin face? I know how to make the smiley face, but can't figure the grin face out.

According to the alt tag mouseover, you just type a colon followed immediately followed by a capital O. Like so --

'Tis a shame so far you can only do , , and ...

Let's have more variety on these boards, Moderator!

Read the Clipart section under Formatting under Documentation on the list of subjects to the left (if your browser supports frames).

Now THAT's just plain showing off.....

This is just getting giddy

By the way this is one of my favorite episdoes of DS9

Why is the "future Jake" using PEN & PAPER to write his stories? Did PADDs fall out of vogue?

See "The Muse"...

Not really a nit, but why didn't the Dominion invade? Were they afraid of the Klingons?

This episode makes no sense whatsoever.

How does "Future Jake"'s death "repair" the timeline?

AND....

Was it Ben Sisko who was thrown out of the timeline or was it Jake?

Did you not WATCH the episode? Both of those questions were explained right there.

They were indeed explained, but they still made no sense.

I guess thats just you then, it made perfect sense to me.

Then explain it clearer...seeing you understand it better than me...if you don't mind.

They explained it clearly on the episode, go watch it again!

I'd rather not. I hate this episode because I hate time-travel episodes that don't make sense.

Elderly-Jake's death (in my opinion) solves NOTHING.

NOBODY can anybody correct a time-line by DYING!

If this episode was a joke by "Q", then it'd make sense.

If Jake was affected by some kind of temporal particles from the Wormhole, then it'd make sense.

If Jake was affected by a warp-bubble or some other kind of radiation from the Warp Core, then it'd make sense.

But what happens?

Ben Sisko gets trapped in some kind of temporal anomoly after an accident in Engineering. He is suspended in time. Jake however, gets old. He figures the only way for the time-line to be fixed is to die and "cut the cord" (whatever that means) that's been dragging Ben Sisko through time. Jake dies and Ben Sisko finds himself back at the time of the accident....

To me---that makes no sense. It's just plain stupid writing

Another thing...after Jake loses his father the first time, no one suggests having a Federation Counselor (like Deanna Troi) come to DS9 to help Jake sort things out.

DANG! A missed opportunity!

Another thing that WOULD make sense is that the Hypospray Jake used to kill himself had a "Time-line Reset Button" on it.

You explained the entire thing yourself in your 1:31pm post, if you still don't understand it, thats your problem. Saying its just "plain stupid writing" is just a cop-out on your part.

How do you know they didn't get a Federation Counselor for Jake? We didn't see that much of his life right after his father disappeared to say they didn't.

The Hypospray that Jake used was sort of a "Time-line Reset Button. So since that makes sense to you, then you should understand the episode.

Maybe you should just stick to watching the Deanna Troi episodes of The Next Generation!.

It's not a "cop-out", it's the truth. The story is 300% pure nonsense.

As an amateur writer, I can come up with more plausable (and believable) stuff that this.

Now if you'll excuse me, Deanna Troi is in my bed...waiting for me.

John A. Lang: Ben Sisko gets trapped in some kind of temporal anomoly after an accident in Engineering. He is suspended in time. Jake however, gets old. He figures the only way for the time-line to be fixed is to die and "cut the cord" (whatever that means) that's been dragging Ben Sisko through time. Jake dies and Ben Sisko finds himself back at the time of the accident.... To me---that makes no sense.
Luigi Novi: I can sorta understand why you might feel that way. For my part, as I recall when I saw the episode, I understood (by virtue of the fact that Ben never ages in the episode as Jake does) that Ben is stuck at the moment when he disappeared on the Defiant, not experiencing time as everyone in normal space is, and that once the subspace link between him and Jake is severed, he goes back into normal space, but since he has no longer has anything pulling him into the "future", he just shows up back at the point in spacetime where he was pulled in.

There's also no reason to conclude that a counsellor wasn't recommended for Jake, or that he didn't spend time with one. Yeah, they coulda mentioned it, I guess, but not doing so is not necessarily a nit, IMO.

John-Boy: You explained the entire thing yourself in your 1:31pm post, if you still don't understand it, thats your problem. Saying its just "plain stupid writing" is just a cop-out on your part.
Luigi Novi: I don't see why it needs to be a cop-out. It's just his aesthetic reaction/opinion from watching the episode.

It doesn't "need" to be a cop-out, I just don't see how saying its "plain stupid writing" is the answer. Same with saying its "300% pure nonsense" Too many people on this board use aruements like that when they don't like/don't understand an episode.

Well, part of one's aesthetic reaction to a story is its clarity, so if something doesn't make sense to someone, I don't think it's odd or wrong for them to express dislike of it. The word cop-out refers to an inaction, evasion, or failure to commit to one's responsiblity, and I don't think that thinking an episode made no sense or was poorly written constitutes such a thing on John Lang's part, nor do I think that opining that it's "pure nonsense" is necessarily an "argument." It's just his aethetic reaction, and I can understand why he'd come away with it, even if I myself don't share it.

OK, lets drop it

Not really a nit, but why didn't the Dominion invade? Were they afraid of the Klingons?

I think it was quite obvious that it was Sisko's continual harassment and continual incursions into their territory that eventually provoked the Dominion, who would rather have just ben left alone, into invading the alpha quadrant. After Sisko died and the federation pulled out the Dominion decided they didn't really have anything to worry about anymore.

I'm not sure that's the case. The Founder Leader said several times that the Founders were bent on controlling the Galaxy in order to control solids. The Federation exploring the Gamma Quadrant was just a pretext to attack. I don't think they would have stopped just because the Federation stopped exploring territory in the Gamma Quadrant(that wasn't even theirs yet)

Maybe the Klingons concentrated a large chunk of their fleet at the Wormhole, or mined it to keep the Dominion out.

I don't recall any mention that they wanted to control the entire galaxy. My understanding was that the only decided to invade the Alpha Quadrantbecause the wormhole, and the Alpha Quadrant powers on the other side of it presented a threat to them, as proven by what the Dominion saw as their "incursions" into the Gamma Quadrant.

I think you are correct to the extent that it may have altered their plans of conquest. Instead of going after the races nearest them they viewed the powers on the other side of the wormhole as the greater threat, for whatever reason. Federation incursions into the Gamma Quadrant were just a pretext.

The Founders demonstrated several times that they wanted to take over the Alpha Quadrant by making everyone else weaker. They manipulated the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar into attacking them even though they were not a direct threat to them and were not exploring the GQ to the degree the Federation was. They turned the Klingons on the Federation as well even though the Klingons also did not do much GQ exploring. Clearly they were setting up(given what happened later) an invasion for the purpose of conquest, not just protecting their territorial integrity.

I think the Founder Leader said in The Search "What you control can't hurt you" or something like that. This was not just applicable to their own territory- they did not want others outside to attack them.