that was my holodeck in the 60s!
Ok, first this isn't to badmouth DS9 as I don't think much of what I have to say actually takes away from the story. Anyway...
First off, why did Starfleet assign a commander to run a space station? I mean, Sisko is outranked by every Starfleet captain that shows up. That seems pretty silly to me. They should have made Sisko a Commodore instead, which would have solved that problem. Plus they should have axed that entire Wolf 359 thing with Sisko's hostility to Picard. I think that was plain bad taste on the part of the writers. On the plus side, Picard handled it very well, putting Sisko in his place, as it were. At any rate, this was all unnecessary as Sisko should have been a commodore with orders from Starfleet Command and not need to be given them by Picard.
Second, why did the Enterprise leave the station in Emissary when it had only *6* photon torpedoes present and no other Starfleet ships to defend it? That seems pretty •••••• of Starfleet and, dare I say it, of Picard and Sisko as well.
Now for another biggie... once the wormhole was discovered, why did Starfleet leave an old Cardassian space station to defend it? Shouldn't they have begun immediate construction of a starbase like the one seen during the Dominion war or even one of the enormous starbases that completely dwarfs the Enterprise-D (the one seen in the Binars ep, for example). I don't know what this would have done to the story line, but I don't think it would have altered it too too much. It certainly would have made sense from a strategic point of view. At the very least we should have had a scene where Starfleet proposes to do this but the Bajorans object and can the idea.
Fourth, they have no Intelligence officer on the station. Someone from Starfleet intelligence should be there, whatwith everyone going through there. They finally get one of course, but he turns out to be a traitor of sorts. (as a broad pet peeve of mine, the writers of ST seem incapable of completely separating local security from other matters. Why were Tasha and Worf the head of both security and tactical? Why is Odo head of security and a quasi-intelligence guy?) My point is, there should have been an intelligence officer there from the start (plus this could have created some interesting friction between him/her, Sisko and Kira).
Some of these are fairly serious nits when you think of it... Sisko is routinely the ranking Starfleet official in the area, often dealing with Gul Ducat and others for example, yet he is only a commander (later captain). His rank quite simply doesn't carry that kind of clout. When the Dominion war erupts, wouldn't it have been great to have had a full-sized starbase (or even that battle-base type thing seen in the war) right at the wormhole? I can't believe that no one thought that a threat coming from the Gamma Quadrant wasn't at least a distinct possibility.
That's it for now... I'll probably think of some later.
Admiral of the Fleet wrote:
>>Plus they should have axed that entire Wolf 359 thing with Sisko's hostility to Picard.<<
I thought that was a very effective setup both for the events of the pilot and the theme of the series as a whole.
Besides, Sisko forgave Picard at the end of "Emissary." Sisko getting past the death of his wife was the whole point of the episode, and forgiving Picard was a tangible way to show that. The fact that it was Picard, during an event with which Trek fans already had familiarity, provided an immediate emotional reaction that wouldn't be there if Sisko blamed Captain Smith for his wife's death during the Battle of 49th and Main.
Granted, it probably ticked off people who love Picard so much that they can't see the other side of the story, but I do think that most people can both admire Picard and acknowledge how horrible it would be to lose your wife in a hopeless battle, and have the man who led the attack go back to work for your side after a little shore leave. Intellectually you would know it wasn't his fault, but emotionally you would blame him, particularly if your grief was as unresolved as Sisko's was before the end of "Emissary."
Just to briefly respond, here are a few counterpoints:
Starfleet probably left DS9 there for a couple of reasons: first, the Bajorans probably didn't want Starfleet coming in and plopping down a massive starbase. The last time they let someone do that, they got themselves conquered! Also, Starfleet may not have been willing to build a starbase in a star system that wasn't Federation territory. Furthermore, Adm. Ross' starbase (324?) is nearby, so building another one would be a waste.
The Enterprise left because the creators of DS9 didn't want the TNG characters to save the day! DS9 has to be able to stand on its own. And besides, the Enterprise is a busy ship.
As for the Intelligence officer question, that's something the show only ever hinted at, unless we count Worf as Intelligence. Why did we never see this Intelligence officer? Well, go down to your local government office and ask to speak to the CIA liason. Regardless of whether or not there is one, the public isn't likely to see him! Also remember that the Cardassians had a spy on DS9 who worked as a tailor. Intelligence officers don't succeed by advertising!
"Cardassians had a spy on DS9 who worked as a tailor"
-- he was a spy, but he wasn't working for the Cardassian government or the Obsidian Order while he was on DS9.
Here's mine. Why have Klingons been using the same groups of ship classes for over a hundred years. Bird of Prey, Battle Cruiser, Attack Cruiser, Flagship. Same thing with Romulans only having three classes of ships. And why do Klingons only have one uniform. 90 years, you think they could find a more useful outfit.
Especially since Starfleet changes their ship lineup and uniform every two or three years. Just in time for the current movie.
Making Sisko a Commodore would have been a pretty neat idea. I'd like to see someone with five rank pips on his collar. (I'm assuming that's the case, since Rear-Admirals only have one "boxed" pip.)
Well, why is Sisko even in command? The man does not know how to follow orders!
Well, why is Sisko even in command? The man does not know how to follow orders!
Jesse, I think not following orders is a prerequisite for Starfleet command officers. Ever watched TOS? Or one of the recent Next Gen movies--the one with the eternal youth planet? (Sorry I don't remember the name; I stopped watching the movies a while ago).
In Starfleet, it's pretty much a given that the higher up you go in the command chain, the more incompetent and/or treacherous you are (which, come to think of it, may be why they never made Sisko a Commodore).
Yeah, true. I agree that that's a main plot idea throughout Star Trek. The problem I have is that disobeying orders in "Insurrection" or in TOS "The Menagerie" is one thing, but to disobey orders from a superior DURING A WAR is entirely different (witness "The Die is Cast").
Consider: during the American Revolutionary War, British General John Burgoyne developed a plan to defeat the American General Gates at Saratoga, in what is now upstate New York. His plan called for a three-pronged assault: his forces from the north through Canada, a small brigade under the command of Col. Barry St.-Leger from the west, and the forces of General Howe from the south, up the Hudson River. Howe, not under Burgoyne's command, wrote to Burgoyne that he intended to go after American General George Washington and wished Burgoyne luck. The absence of Howe's forces allowed the Americans to defeat the British forces.
Now, in "The Die is Cast," Sisko disobeys orders to go rescue Odo. Suppose that Starfleet knew of a Dominion assault through the wormhole. Or suppose that two hours after Sisko left, Starfleet intended to lead an assault on the Dominion themselves. Sisko's disobedience could have been disastrous in either case.
Why Sisko is only Commander?
Well, maybe it was not easy to find any officer to do the job? SF doesn't have much unused captains around.
But the rank thing IS an issue in ST.
Why was Data never promoted to Commander?
But Troi was.
Harry Kim, save the ship at least some times
never got promoted from ensign.
The rank of Tuvok never was clear
and Tom got degraded every next episode.
The Ship classes thing:
Well, I guess if it was a show about klingons
we would have seen other ship types (and uniforms)
It costs money to do create new stuff.
Uniforms: Same as above. But we saw a couple of modifications of klingon and romulan uniforms and dresses over the years.
I really hated what they did in ST7-Generations,
when they mixed the uniforms from TNG&DS9/VOY during the movie.
Anyone noticed this: there was an officer
in the conf.room in DS9, last episode (signing of peace treaty) wearing the red TNG uniform.
Jesse: Well, why is Sisko even in command? The man does not know how to follow orders!
Jessica: Jesse, I think not following orders is a prerequisite for Starfleet command officers. Ever watched TOS? Or one of the recent Next Gen movies--the one with the eternal youth planet? (Sorry I don't remember the name; I stopped watching the movies a while ago).
In Starfleet, it's pretty much a given that the higher up you go in the command chain, the more incompetent and/or treacherous you are (which, come to think of it, may be why they never made Sisko a Commodore).
During the TOS era, Starship captains were pretty much on their own. On several occasions, Kirk mentions that there are only 12 Enterprise-type (Constitution-class) starships in the fleet. Subspace communication with outlying areas of the Federation could be extremely slow. As a result, Kirk and his follow captains were expected to take the initiative. While the Prime Directive and other StarFleet regulations governed how they were to exercise their discretion, most of the time StarFleet command wouldn't interfere with a captain's prerogative.
By the TNG/DS9 era, StarFleet had grown larger and communications had vastly improved. Thus, captains were given somewhat less discretion. Nevertheless, StarFleet still values initiative as a command trait, and can be forgiving when its officers act so long as the result is favorable.
As for Sisco, when he was appointed commander of DS9, it wasn't exactly a great post. Bajor was a backwater planet just beyond the edge of Federation space but not really on the way to anywhere else. StarFleet needed an able administrator who could keep the station running. After the wormhole was discovered, the station took on added significance - as did Sisco when he became the Prophet's Emmissary to Bajor. But he was not promoted to captain until it became clear that DS9 was a flashpoint which needed a flag-officer in command
Actually I quite liked Sisko, he may not have been a Captain at first, but he was the Emissary of the Prophets, and that made him very important to Bajoran spirituality. How would Bajor have reacted to Starfleet deciding to replace Sisko with somebody else? Also it turns out that Sisko's life had already been planned for him by the Prophets (even his birth), he was DESTINED to be on Deep Space Nine.
Whoever said that Bajor would object to Starfleet building a huge Starbase was correct... you only had to see Kira's reaction in 'Emissary' when she said 'In a week, this provisional Government will be gone and so will you!' Also remember the episode during the War when the Romulans put a hospital on a Bajoran moon, and neglected to inform the Bajorans that weapons would be there also. The very idea of them letting Starfleet build a starbase there is out of the question.
As a character, I found Sisko fascinating too, particularly after the first season or two. I contributed much material to his entry at Wikipedia.
Bashir's & O'Brien's activities:
Racquetball
Darts
The "Viking" Program
The "Battle of Britain" Program
The "Secret Agent" Program
The "Alamo" Program
The "Alamo" model in Quark's
These gents really get bored alot, don't they...seeing they change activities so many times?
Makes sense. Sure I love James Bond movies, Star Trek, rollerblading and nude beaches but I'm constantly finding other things to do as well.
Certainly. But it seems that Miles & Julian never go back and do those other activities once they've changed their activities.
Example: During the first few seasons, they play Racquetball. However, during the last few seasons, they never play it again. The same applies to Darts.
I stand corrected, Miles & Julian play darts again in "Extreme Measures"
hey, John,I and my best friend played B-17 when 12 0 clock high was on, I was gen. Savage.., in my dad's car..
that was my holodeck in the 60s!
actually,miles doesn't play Darts in extreme measures.. just julian 
I have a ship nit to pick. During the Dominion War, Starfleet was having to replace ships and crews at an incredible rate, so it just seemed so illogical to me for them to build any new ships other than the smaller Defiant class ships. They would take less time and materials to build and less new crewmen to man (at a time when all three elements were in short supply). Yet in all the later big battle scenes, you'd see maybe one additional Defiant class ship other than the Defiant/Sao Paulo and all these bigger, yet less "powerful" Galaxy class "science" vessels!
The Galaxy class ships were most likely also used as ground troop carriers. You can't fit 5000 troops onboard the Defiant.
Yet in all the later big battle scenes, you'd see maybe one additional Defiant class ship other than the Defiant/Sao Paulo and all these bigger, yet less "powerful" Galaxy class "science" vessels!
The Galaxy class is, technically, an Explorer class ship.
What makes you think that the Galaxy class is less powerful? They were used as the heavy hitters during the battle for DS9 (Sacrifice of Angels).
Going off the specifications for Defiant and Galaxy class ship armament we can compare;
Galaxy class; 10-14 type X phaser emitters. (10 is the number given in TNG, 12 is the number that can be seen on the model, and 14 is the number counted from special effects shots)
3 Torpedo tubes - 1 fore, 1 aft and one hidden at the base of the saucer section when docked.
Crew; around 1000, with the ability to carry 5000 additional personnel. (The Enterprise D's compliment is given several times as 1013, but this does include civilians. Presumably Galaxy class ships in front line service during the Dominion war didn't carry civilians and had smaller crews.)
Decks - 42
Top speed - Warp 9.96 for 12 hours
Defiant Class; 4 pulse phasers fore
2 phaser emmiters (One each on the Ventral and Dorsal hull)
6 Torpedo launchers, 4 fore and 2 aft.
Crew - around 50 personal.
Decks - 5
Top speed - Warp 9.5 (Requires diverting power from the weapon systems).
From the above we can say;
Galaxy class ships have 20 times the total crew compliment as the defiant class in normal situations, and they can carry 100 times the entire crew of a Defiant class ship.
While Defiant class ships can do more damage than a Galaxy class ship in a single attack run, this is because they have practically all of their weapons aiming forward. Galaxy class ships have a more consistent damage output as at least two phaser emmiters will be able to see a target regardless of how Ship and target are in relation to each other.
Galaxy class ships have nine times the decks as the Defiant class, allowing them to carry more and larger equipment - ie a larger more powerful warp core.
Galaxy class ships are faster at Warp, allowing them to reach trouble areas faster.
We do not have any command over the contingencies and criteria by which Starfleet would favor one class of ship over another, nor do we know what elements, if any, were in short supply. We also do not know if the ships present in the Battle of Cardassia Prime were new ones, olds ones, or dictated by how close they were to Cardassian Prime when the available members of the fleet were ordered to that location for that battle. The stats that Cybermortis suggests could also be an important factor, however, no episode has ever established that such things as "Explorer class" even exist, much less that the Galaxy-class ships are among them.
'Explorer class' is the term used in both the DS9 and TNG technical manual. While this has not been used on screen (Starfleet identifies ships by class not function) this is a perfectly logical term to use, since Starfleet is not aggressive it avoids using 'military' terms when describing its ships. (The Defiant is called an 'Escort' ship, even though it is very clear both from use and why she was designed that she is a warship).
As to why you would use different types of ships there are multiple explanations. Many of which apply to modern day navies and not just the Star Trek universe.
Different ships have different strengths and different weaknesses. If your fleet is composed from a single class of ship an enemy will be able to use your weaknesses to destroy you. If you have different ships then they can cover the weaknesses of each other. This is why of all the fleets we see on DS9 only one - the Romulan fleet - seems to employ only a single class of ship. Everyone else has at least 3 different classes of warship in their fleets (Fighter craft excluded).
Modern Navies work the same way - their fleets do not comprise of only a single class of ship. They have at least 3 or 4 different classes of ship, all of which have a role to play.
The Technical Manuals, while interesting reads, are not canon. As for your analogy to modern Navies, I agree.
quote:Cyber: Top speed - Warp 9.96 for 12 hours
My bad, the top speed given on screen was 9.6 for 12 hours. I'm confusing both the DS9 technical manual (which gives 9.96 as the top speed) and TNG 'force of nature' where it is stated that the Enterprises warp core is almost as efficient as the warp core of an Intrepid class starship - who's top speed is warp 9.975.
In any case the Galaxy class is significantly faster at warp speeds than the Defiant class.
Cyber, Intrepid-class ships had not even been established by the time of Force of Nature. They were not established/mentioned until Caretaker(VOY).
As for Warp 9.975, that's the Voyager's sustainable cruise velocity, not necessarily its top speed.
I don't know if this is the best place to put this, but I've been slowly making my way through the series over the past couple of years. I just finished "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night", and I noticed something interesting about the station during the occupation. I believe someone mentioned in one of these threads that it was nice of the Cardassians to use cool lighting and smoke during the occupation for the cool flashback stories. My question is, what was with the lighting and smoke during the occupation. The station was much darker. I'll accept that the Cardassians liked it that way, but why is it so much brighter after the Bajorans took over? Did they go through and up the wattage on all the light bulbs? I was also intrigued by the caged section of the promenade for holding the slave laborers. Was the station not built as an ore processing station? Why are they holding the laborers on the Promenade? Surely they would have designed someplace else to hold them, seeing as it was the intention to use the station for ore processing anyway. It just feels like the station was designed to be a friendly port, with a promenade full of shops, restaurants, and miscellaneous entertainment venues, and was simply retrofitted to be a labor camp in flashbacks. That couldn't be the case, could it ;)
It would have made more sense if the slave cages were somewhere else on the station. It makes sense that the Promenade would look friendly for the freighter crews and others who are coming through. If you go to some of these nations with major poverty problems & human rights abuses the shantytowns are usually out of sight from the shops, bars and all inclusive resorts. But building new sets costs money. Retrofitting existing ones is cheaper and easier.