Okay, so William, where were we?

DS9 rules, and as I've said before, Williams had no right to dislike DS9.

Oops, that would William not Williams

This is called DS9 vs Voyager. If you wanted to continue the previous discussion, shouldn't it be under a topic such as, "DS9 vs Insurrection" or something?

And, just to keep it on topic, DS9 rules. Voyager...well...you know...

Good point, Rene.

I think there will be a new moderator for this topic by tomorrow. I'm going to do my best to leave well enough alone until then.

Addendum: my apologies to all for not spotting the issues with the previous topic of this name. The Roving Mods--at least two of us that live at my apartment--were a bit distracted this weekend.

Josh, William has every right to dislike VOY.

Yeah, I know you were joking, Josh, but I just wanted to make that point, since I also lobbied for the post of DS9, mod, and since you're probably going to get it, you might have to be more careful about appearing friendly to non-DS9 fans who come to these boards, and I wouldn't want to discourage people like William from coming here, just because the moderator disagrees with them.

I know, I know, Luigi.

Just enjoying my last bit of time as a non-moderator.

And, indeed Williams has every right to dislike VOY.

I said he has no right to dislike DS9. :P

Argh, I did it again! Williams instead of William!

Of course, when you spent several hours writing a review the latest Star Wars score by John Williams, this tends to happen.

http://www.scorerealm.ca/attack_clones.htm

[/end shameless plug]

Darn. Whereas most typos are harmless, this one I made makes it look like I was agreeing with you by implying William has the right to dislike the program he favors. Oops!

And now, for something completely different...

That's right, the announcement you never thought you'd hear...


I think that VOY was the best of the Star trek series. In fact, I thought that DS9 was the least of the Star Trek series.
Then came Enterprise.

Anyway, I really don't see why so mant people dislike Voyager, but I'd have to say that it beats out DS9 in my opinion.

IMHO, most of the problems can be attributed to UPN. I is much better in syndication (like all Trek series). Just be sure to wait 30 minutes after watching The Andy Griffith Show.

(The local station used to put Voyager after The Andy Griffith Show. Not a good combination.)

1. RESET Button
My reasons why people don't care (as much) for Voyager is that by its nature nothing could ever be done to the ship or the crew that was devastating. Now I know that they did, but a lot, not all, but a lot of them had the big reset button. Where as the other series could damage the ship to the nth degree but it could be sent to spacedock. Those things couldn't occur with as much believablity in Voyager.

2. The crew.
It, in my opinion, lacked the depth of character developement that DS9 had. In the early seasons Janeway was all this prime directive or die person. Sisko being the Emissary broke ranks quite a lot. Kes was too passive, the episodes where she had an attitude and yelled were her better ones.

3. The TREK BABE.
DS9 didn't have a bunny outfitted character. While some might say that Leeta was the bunny, I'd say look around... This is Quarks, the way it was meant to be... Voyager had the borgette which was to appeal to that particular viewer and kind of showed the lack of character developement of the show. DS9 had a bar, but I never felt it as being a "real world" attention grabber, just a business practice of one of the characters.

4. The Supplies
Where in the Galaxy do they get them shuttles!

The problem I think with Voyager was the lack of the unexpected. All* the crew had to live in order to run the ship (which couldn't be blasted to bits Since they needed it for next weeks adventures.)

DS9 didn't have a bunny outfitted character. - Anonymous

Please!

I don't recall Odo (or any other Bajoran) wearing a uniform that was tight as Kira's. I don't recall their uniforms running up to the cracks of their asses. Kira's outfit may not have been as form-fitting as Seven of Nine's catsuit, but it was still designed to accentuate certain body parts. Also, let's not forget Dax's numerous how-far-do-the-spots-go moments.

Er... thanks, Annonymous. I disagree about the character depth, and I watched the show before 7 of 9 came along, but I see your points. I still like Voyager the best, though.

Ok then, Zarm, why do you like Voyager best? (don't take any bad tone from that; I'm just interested in your thoughts!)

Yeah, I guess your right.

Some how Kira's anger always turned me off. Though in my defense I must add that Kira's unform was a uniform so I didn't think of it as a bunny suit. Where as Troi's and Seven's one-piece suit screamed aloud to what it was.

Also, let's not forget Dax's numerous how-far-do-the-spots-go moments. -Darth

To me, that comment is just who Dax is. Jadzia was someone who expressed herself any many ways regardless of others disgust. She was shall we say open minded with set moral restrictions.

Recent Star Trek is very reminiscent of the current attitude at the BBC.

Both were founded with high noble ideals (ST: Show that humanity can overcome its differences and make voyages of discovery, etc.; BBC: Educate, inform, entertain).

And both have upstarts who want to bring sex into absolutely everything.

Both have a strange interaction between these two opposing tendencies. Voyager (the major culprit) does 500 episodes focusing on 7 of 9 for no obvious reason beyond the obvious reason ( ), but as a part of High and Noble Trek feel the need to pretend it's a serious explanation of the human condition.

The BBC leaps ungainlily onto the take-ordinary-gullible-teenagers-and-turn-them-into-fifteen-second-pop-stars bandwagon, but tries to pretend that there's a serious purpose behind it all.

And one thing about Voyager and Enterprise is the belief that it's OK to have eye candy, as long as it doesn't ACT like eye candy (most of the time - 7 in 'Human Error' and when T'Pol gets Pon Farr are obvious exceptions).

And one thing about Voyager and Enterprise is the belief that it's OK to have eye candy, as long as it doesn't ACT like eye candy (most of the time - 7 in 'Human Error' and when T'Pol gets Pon Farr are obvious exceptions).
Eye candy's been a time honored Trek tradition since the beginning though. Though that eye candy did crack smiles more often than the current incarnations.

Well, I guess eye candy (the special effects) is one reason I liked Voyager. The tendancy towards action as well.
I liked the small comunity feel of some episodes.
And truthfully, I liked the Doctor, Tom Paris, Janeway, and Tuvok more than I liked most DS9 characters.

So, I don't really have any specific reason. If I had to pick something that it boils all down to, I feel like Voyager kept moving and kept things interesting, and DS9 tended to be sedentary. (Until the Dominion war, of course.)

Well, the Doctor was surely the best thing about Voyager. And doesn't Robert Picardo appear to a great guy? When I was at a convention with Ethan Philips, one of my friends asked him what Robert Picardo was like, since we would have preferred to have seen him! (He's apparently a "great guy.")

well i never really watched DS9 too much, as the early seasons turned me off and after the war started i could never justify the time to watch it (come to think of it, i missed a lot of 5-7 season Voyager as well. Ah, such is the life of a student). Plus, i was probably too young to really understand DS9's more serious parts (i was only 5 when it premiered).

I probably enjoyed Voyager a bit more partly because i found the characters more interesting, initially at least. B'Ellanna had a ton of potential, and her early behavior was pretty interesting. Tuvok and Kim also held great interest for me (i do admit i wish neelix would have sacrificed himself for the ship in just about every episode). It was annoying, however, that 7 kept getting developed in seasons 4-7 at the expense of my more favored characters even though i never really thought she was that interesting a character (discovering new aspects of humanity has been done to death on ST, even on VOY with the Doctor, and she has no history to uncover). Torres was definitely my favorite character on VOY, and it was a real deterrent that she was pretty much the same character in season 7 as in season 4.

I think if i had watched more of the Dominion War, i would have liked DS9 a bit more. Right now, however, I like VOY more. I also tended toward voyager partly because of the non-serial style stories (i could miss an episode and not be completely lost in the story, one reason i never got into 24).

I would like to say that it's a real eye opener to rewatch episodes at age 17 that i initially saw when i was 7. A decade of life experiences gives one a new perspective, and it's quite interesting to actually understand the underlying themes and overtones of what is going on rather than just the basic plot stuff and action that i loved as a young kid.

-JM

A few years ago, I read a letter someone submitted to SFX magazine. He made a comparison between all the Trek series and famous musical groups.

TOS was like Elvis(the trendsetter, and he even compared the TOS films to the King's white jacket period).
TNG was like the Beatles(took what came before and, in some ways, improved on it)
DS9 was like the Rolling Stones(took a 'darker' turn)
Voyager was like Oasis(a one-hit wonder)
I forget the comparison he made with Enterprise but I know it wasn't flattering.

Here's a horror film comparison:
TOS is like Psycho(the trendsetter)
TNG is like Halloween(same format with different twists)
DS9 is like A Nightmare on Elm Street(ditto)
Voyager is like Friday the 13th(it has its moments but is too non-sensical to be considered 'good')
Enterprise is like Seed of Chucky(a story that just didn't need to be told)

Given that Elvis and the Beattles came out in the same general era, I don't see that as the best comparison for TOS and TNG. I would look for a different metaphor for TNG. Like maybe a cover band or band heavily influenced by one from much earlier that went on to make their own mark and get out of their predecessor's shadow. (Is there such a band that qualifies?)

Well, Voyager did have a few hit episodes, such calling them a "one hit wonder" isn't entirely unreasonable, but I tend to think that people think of that show according to its overall performance. By contrast, one hit wonders are characterized by good quality, but small or fleeting amount of output.

Given Enterprise's truncated run, and the fact that it may be thought by some to have had some strong material in its fourth season (or third, or third and fourth, depending on your opinion), maybe "one hit wonder" is slightly closer a metaphor for them?

I agree with you about Enterprise, Luigi. For the most part, seasons 3 & 4 of Enterprise were actually better than Voyager, in my opinion.

First of all, let me say that I did like Voyager. However, Deep Space Nine was much better, writing wise, and in my opinion, here is why.

When Next Generation ended in 1994, the writing staff was divided between DS9, which was in production at that time, and Voyager, which was starting the following January.

DS9 was the lucky one, because it got Ron Moore. Mr. Moore is a forward thinking writer, who could see the changes in the trends of science fiction shows. He, along with other talented writers like Ira Behr, realized that the Reset Button was now outdated. The episode did NOT have to end with everyone happily back on the bridge. While both Classic Trek and NextGen could get away with that, other shows like Babylon Five had radically changed the rules in the mid-90's. If Trek were to stay relivant, it would have to adjust to those rules.

Thus the final two seasons of DS9 were a step in the right direction. First we had the Dominion Occupied DS9 six-episode arc, that opened Season Six, and then we had the ten episode arc in Season Seven that closed out the series.

Voyager, unfortunately, did not get such forward thinking writers. While I like Jeri Taylor's work on TNG, she failed to see the changes in the trend of science fiction shows. However, it really got worse when she left and Brannon Braga took over. The man was opposed to the serial format, insisting that Voyager MUST stick to the one episode storylines, no matter what. So for Trek it was one step forward (DS9) and then two steps back (VOY).

When DS9 finished, Ron Moore moved over to Voyager. He wanted to introduce the serial format that had made DS9 such a success, but Braga quickly vetoed that idea. Not surpriseingly, Mr. Moore soon left the show (and I can't blame him). Why Paramount let him go and didn't kick Braga out the door is a complete mystery to me. Moore was forward thinking, Braga wasn't (and I am not even going to mention Braga's obsession with time travel and the such, it's a wonder he didn't jump on the first plane to the U.K. when the story broke that Doctor Who was going back into production).

Braga had clearly lost his touch with Trek (if he ever had it to begin with). I have noticed that fans consider Voyager's 7th and Enterprise's 4th seasons, much better seasons. Funny how in both cases, Braga had lessened his involvement with the show.

Also, the new Battlestar Galactica, created by Ron Moore, has had a four year run. Threshold, that Braga created, tanked in a few months. Draw your own conclusions.

To sum up, Deep Space Nine is the clear winner, because, as I said, it was forward thinking for a Trek show. If Voyager had been lucky enough to have Moore and Behr as their writers, it probably would have been much better written and received than it was.

I don't get the notion that one must lobe one of the series and dislike/hate the other.

I absolutely loved TNG, DS9, *and* VOY, all for different reasons. I'm glad they were different enough yet still clearly Trek. I do admit VOY was by far had the most silly episodes, but I think that almost added to its charm, as did its slighty goofy but lovable characters and infamous technobabble.

And of course DS9 is great for serious, serialized story-telling. Nothing can beat it for drama, excellent acting performances, and its unique look at the underside of the Federation.

As for TNG, we have it to thank for DS9 and VOY. And it paved the way for the resurgence in sci-fi. It had great characters, its stories transcended the (relatively) poor SFX/sets, and its almost heavy-handed moralizing was charming. It more than any other Trek tried to present a credibly optimistic future for humanity — it was the quintessential humanist show and clearly a vehicle for Roddenberry's idealized future.

So I must say I enjoy TNG/DS9/VOY equally and am glad they all ran for seven seasons. Unfortunately, I just can't get into Enterprise, despite many attempts and watching almost all of seasons 1 and 2, and some of 4. As for STXI, all I can say is that I don't in general like any movies, even Trek ones, but I'm glad it enriched the franchise with cash and cachet.