I would Like to know and Know soon why Garak was outcasted from Cardassia. He had to have done something awful, but I believe because his father was Ebinarin Tain he was just outcasted. I would Like to hear everyone's opinion on this.

Also I keep hearing on the Net that Dukat's first name is Elmo, I would really love to know where this comes from.

It was probably some sort of mission that he botched up for the Obsidian Order, and his dad was so embarrased that he had to get him out of the Order and off Cardassia Prime. Maybe it was somehting to do with his time on Romulus. It would be nice to hear why specifically before the series is over, I don't think that they have ever said specifically.

Elmo Dukat? That would be funny if it was true. One thing I have never understood about the Cardies is their naming system. Elim Garak is the son of Enabrain Tain, but us humans would never know that just by their names. There seems to be no family lineage involved in their names.

As for the Elmo thing: Ron Moore has said that it's always been his first name. (This irks the most die-hard Dukat fans...)

Dukat has the best line in the whole series... In "The Maquis, Pt. II", when the Vulcan woman can't read his mind, he comments, "Merely a matter of discipline."

The Encyclopedia says his first name is Elim. It comes from an episode.

No, *Garak's* first name is Elim, as established in "The Wire." We're talking about Dukat here...

Maybe Ebinarin Tain Changed his son's name because of What Garak did. And so nobody would know that he was his illegitimate child.

My brother had an interesting idea - Garak doesn't know why he was exiled. All the stories he tells Bashir are guesses, based on real incidents from his career.
Perhaps it was simply a decision by Tain, without a'real' reason - he wanted his son gone, whether to forstall future uncomfortable revelations, to have a tool outside the Cardassian web, to somehow make Garak a better spy, or someting else altogether.

Some questions are best left unanswered, as anyone who's seen "Casablanca" would say; Garak isn't quite Rick or Ilsa, but IMHO he's close.

Number1GeordiFan, that's a great idea! I've always thought that Garak was *innocent*, he sounded so sincere when he insisted he was... the thought that he doesn't even know why! That's the best idea I've heard so far.

I agree with Chris Ashley, too... I really hope we can get through the last few episodes with as little as possible revealed about him. They've become far too forthcoming, in my opinion -- I had to construct an entire underplot for Afterimage in order to watch it without screaming.

This board ties in nicely with the other board and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the connection yet...

Maybe Garak was exiled from Cardassia because he's gay and Cardassians are for the most part, raging homophobes? "Go on Garak, get outta here. Go play on Terok Nor with the Bajoran laborers. They're into that sort of thing!"

Just a theory...

I never thought of that.

dwmarch-

Most interesting. I had never thought of that but it could definaily be a posibility. That would also fit in with the theory that his father sent him away: He could be wildly embaressed about his son who makes dresses. I don't think that the show will be forthcoming with any confermation on that particular line of thought though.

I hope the show isn't too forthcoming. Garak is much more interesting when he's mysterious. Glimpses, and no more: when it's one element of a TV show something like that can work very well.

When it's the show's foundation, of course, people become screaming fans who threaten the creators with death and constantly write their own explanations for everything, with fantasy porn featuring the show's characters thrown in. But that could never happen, could it? ;-)

i have a Theory. What if Garak fell in love with a bajoran woman, and he sent her to safety, but his father found out and outcasted him. But it's been done with Dukat. And every Cardassian male seemed to have a bajorian lover so, It's not a very original idea. Nevermind, just a thought to throw in the air

Maybe the obsidian order changes peoples names, so an enemy couldn't take revenge on the agents familes. They do it for some witnesses for the state who fear for their lives. So why not for a member of a secretive government agecy? That may be why Garak and his father don't have the same last names.

I think the reason Garak and his father don't have the same last name is because Garak was a bastard, and even he wasn't supposed to know that Tain was his father.

I like the idea that Garak doesn't know why he was exiled, but I think something should be discovered that can be assumed to be THE reason. Telling the reason would be too obvious and Cardassians are supposed to be devious so it's unlikely that any reason given by some Cardassian could be true, whereas a good possible reason might be given so that fans could say, "Ah, that ties in with..." On the other hand maybe the answer has already been given, but it was wrapped up with falsehood so no one accepted it. Remember The Wire? Garak told a story of allowing some Bajoran refugees to live at the end of the Occupation. Maybe Garak's mercy is what got him exiled? A moment of weakness for a member of the Obsidian Order? UNACCEPTABLE.

I just think Garak more than likely helped the Baforans overthrow the occupation, and he was left there to be with his, in the cardassian's minds, his 'new friends'. He probably does not like all the hero worship, and did his good deeds mysteriously, so he does not let on why he is exiled. He probably sees himself as still the sneaky evil cardassion, and wants to keep it that way.

baforans= bajorans (yikes)

It's an easy mistake to make Sharon, as the Baforans were the first civilization on Bajor. They came bafor the Bajorans;-)

So if the Bajorans had advanced civilization while humanity was using stone knives and bearskins (see "Ensign Ro" and "COTEOF"), when were the Baforans active?

I repeat: the more mysterious our Garak, the better.

LOL guys!! :-) Maybe the cardassians are actually the aformentioned Baforans, so there is a biological link to the Bajorans, and Garak was exiled, because he was trying to unite or reunite the races!!!!

I'm afraid you know too much, human.

Is 'outcasted' an actual word?

Does that mean the Afterans will come after the Bajorans?

Alright Humans you've learned too much. Now I will be forced to kill you, but first let me explain everything. The Baforans came first and became the Cardassians, then the Bajorans came along. The purpose of the Occupation was to unite the two races into a new race the Afterans. When the Cardassian goverment learned of this plan they cancelled the Occupation, but the plan had a limited success, as some Afterans were created. Ziyal was one of those Afterans and that is the real reason that Damar killed her. Now that I've explained all this prepare to... what's that? Who are you? No, put down that phaser! Aaaaaaaaaaaah...

HA HA HA!!! I got You. Quit telling such lies. No it happened this way. Ebinarian Tain had and Illigetimate son called Garak. We all know that. Tain hated him, just because he was his mistake and sent him out on dangerous missions. Since Garak learned how to survive he got his hands on much knowledge. Tain decided that Garak was a greak Ally and decided to keep him around. Garak then exposed some of his knowledge and Tain became frightned that he may reveal some about him. Tain then Exiled Garak on Terok Nor never to come back to the planet that he so loved. Tain did not have his killed because he was his son and a good ally. Dukat hates Garak because in some of his dangerous missions Garak killed Dukat's father and Dukat would have had Garak executed but he escaped.
I think that is the real reason.

I have thought about the names. Maybe, Unlike human names where we take the last name of the father, on Cardasia you take the last name of the mother, or maybe Garak had a choice, or didn't know his mother very well and just picked a name.

Now a serious question.... After re-watching "Civil Defense", it becomes obvious that Dukat knows what's up with Garak. The two loathe each other... Has Dukat ever given a hint as to why?

HA! This board only incompasses a tiny fraction of what humans know about Garak, his lifestyle, his outcasting, and Cardassia in general. I can't tell you everything we know of course, but Garak does like making dresses.

I thought about pointing out that 'outcasted' is not an actual word, and that the correct word to use in this context is 'exiled', but I decided against it.

I don't think Sloan is a general. . . .

No, all of you have it wrong. Garak always has been and still is a changeling spy. He's been gathering info on DS9 and the cursed Federation for years. He put together Sisko's psychographic profile. It and all the other stuff helped us tremedously in plotting the Federation's destruction. And by the way, we all know that Section 31 infected us, but because we are gods, we will overcome your futile efforts to eliminate us. (insert evil laugh here)

Elimination is futile, eh? Better not tell those Vorta you have cleaning toilets.

Gee, did I start this, because I accidently mispelled Bajorans?
By the way, Gul Morgan: I'm the one with the Phaser!!!! :-).

Just kidding!!!

Hey Founder Leader! Guess who contaminated the Great Link! (It's fun watching limited beings who think they're omnipotent suffer. To me, anyway.)

Do we know for a fact that Cardasians pass on their names the way we do? Maybe Garek isn't supposed to have the same name as his father.

What was the name of the legate and his son from Cardassians?

Attention everyone!
I have just found the remains of Gul Morgan filling a very large ashtray.
Oddly enough, two people have already claimed credit for killing him.
What we have here is a good old fashioned Cardassian Enigma Tale.
No one leave the board, because I know every one of you is guilty, it just has to be determined what each of you is guilty of.

I did it.

My hero!!


By the way, I have a really, really, wierd thought on the true to truer type life that is the man's known to us as Elim Garek. This is what I think,(By the way, my idle mind, is way to idle!!)anyway, I think, Garek is really human, and he does work for section 31 and he went undercover to help the Bajorans(not Baforans, mind you) in thrarting the occupation.(considering the Federation was probably forbidden to interfear). The reason he was left there, here is my really wierd thought. Was that for a job well done, they kept him there to reunite with his real son, who doesn't even know he is his real father. This true biological son, was intriqued with the tailor because of his mysterious ways, but boy! real he get shocked when he finds out the real mystery!
the man who raised him, just stepped in, so the real father can go do his undercover ways, and this step-in dad is infertile, but no one really did find out. How els is Julian Bashir is an only child. That is my theory, and go ahead and tell me that I'm crazy. Of course, my theory is blown, when they start introducing Julian's siblings.

Well I guess we will never know the answer to why garak was exiled. I so hoped that they would tell us in the last episode.

OK, going from limited knowledge available off the top of my head, this is my theory. Dukat's dad was for, some reason, the target of an Obsidian Order mission. My guess, which will become the basis of my theory, is that one of the previous missions was blown and the OO needed a scapegoat.
So Garak goes in with a small squad of others, to plant evidence in Dukat Sr.'s home. Dukat himself is there, and Garak makes a tacticle (I'm sure that's spelled wrong) blunder by allowing young Dukat to "holograph" him.
Dukat saves this picture until he rises into power. Somewhere along the lines he finds the identinty of the man who set up his father. Now he has the means and the motive to strike back against Garak.
He covertly pulls strings and opens his wallet until Garak is exiled, not being able to get him executed without calling attention to himself. Or, he frames Garak in the same way Garak did to his father. However, in the second case, Tain can't bring himself to order the death of his own son, so he merely exiles hime.
This theory is flexable. Perhaps a security system snapped Garak's picture. Or Dukat Sr. was framed at work. Or perhaps just killed. Or going back to the beggining, maybe Dukat Sr. was also an OO operative who betrayed to save his own butt.
I'm sure that someone will be able to find one line of casuale dialouge somewhere that shows this theory to be wrong, but, as I said, it is flexible. It can, and will, survive as long as cochroaches!!! It is invincable!!!!!! INVINCABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...
...
...
[The sound of brathing in with the nose and out with the mouth]
[More of that sound]
...
Sorry about the outburst. But mark my words...this theory will dance on Data's grave!

That should be "who _Garak_ betrayed..."

_Invincable!

Jack B: In Improbable Cause & The Die is Cast it was revealed that Garak's death was ordered by Tain.

I believe in The Wire, Tain admitted that he was responsible for Garak's exile and that he wanted him to suffer, later in IC & TDIS he said that Garak had betrayed him.

I wonder if Dukat's dad was a Pah-Wraith???

You're probably right, but if I recall in Civil Defense Dukat implied that Garak betrayed Dukat's dad and somehow this led to his exile, possibly at the hands of Dukat. I think. It's been a long time since i saw CD.

Wait a second...Garak was exiled because he betrayed Tain...and he was exiled for betraying Dukat's dad..."Garak, I am your brother" :-)

Just a thought...someone should write a book about the Cardassians, including theories for Garak's exile.

Garak probably tried to make a wardrobe of dresses for Tain. Speaking of which, did Tain mean it literally that Garak was his son? Or did he mean it in "the son he never had" protege type?

As for the name thing, I have another theory. I write fantasy stories for fun, and one of my societies (nymphs, to be exact) have a different way to do names. If mom and dad are married, the children take dad's name. If they're not, then mom gives her children a name that indicates what element of nature they work with, or what they do, or something like that (generally). An example would be that JinianStar LifeSong had a daughter named Melisarra. JinianStar wasn't married to Melisarra's dad, Dramel, so she gave the girl the last name of Windrider, since she's a sylph (nymph with wings). Melisarra later got married to Searian Starblood, so her twin daughters, Calypso and Beraleen, were also named Starblood.

Does anyone know if Garak and Tain are supposed to mean anything?

Garak is Tain's son. Completely, totally. No ifs, ands, or buts.

So Garak probably was the high school crossdresser and that really embarrassed Tain. In an ancient Cardassian dialect, Garak means "sissy". Tain means "macho". I study this thing, ya know.

This might have been mentioned before, but this site and the "Is Garek gay?" site could be related. We don't know the status of homo/bi-sexuals in the Cardassian Empire; if Garek was gay, or if evidence was mistaken/faked, then his father might have been embarrished by him and tried to have him killed.

Another question: What is Dukat's first name ? Was it ever mentioned ?

Ron Moore always said it was Elmo. But you never know. I rather hope it is.

Elmo is nearly Elim. Hmmmmmm.....

Tickle-Me-Dukat ?

Be sure to pick up the Special Edition with the red, glowing eyes. 8-)

From "The Die is Cast"

Garak's name is Elim.
Garak was (falsely?) accused of treason (both against Cardassia and against Tain).

ScottN: Did the ep say exactly what Garak was accused of (what treasonous act)?

Does it matter? Under the Cardassian system, you're guilty when charged. See Tribunal.

Considering that charges of treason in unjust systems are usually excuses for the death penalty, one does wonder why Garak was left alive? Did the prosecution lack evidence for a trial? Did Tain exile Garak for protection? Did Tain actually believe that exile was worse than execution?

I don't remember the exact dialog, but it's at the beginning when Tain and Garak are sharing a drink. Tain calls him "Elim" and makes a comment about the betrayal, but doesn't go into detail.

But...what...about...Dukat's...father!!!

I'm telling you, he's Tain.

Jack B.,

Are... you... related... to... William... SHATNER!!!?!??

The way you posted makes.... me WONDER!

Keith: *Cringes* I'm just CURIOUS! I know all about Tribunal and stuff! Take a chill pill and swim in Arctic waters nude!

Jack: I thought I heard somewhere that Garak was supposed to execute Dukat's dad (which explains the animosity), but Garak took pity on him and let him record an actual farewell message...just wish I remembered where I heard it...

M: Sorry. I didn't mean to make you cringe. I guess my question came across harsher than I thought it would.

(Unfortunately this happens a lot with me. Must be something in the way I talk and write.)

Gotta go now. A Polar Bear and a Killer Whale are trying to eat me and the ice flow with my clothes on it is floating away.

Hey, if you're a good boy, maybe Santa or his elves will bring you nice warm thermal clothing...you're forgiven. ;)

I have an idea about that name thing. I think Cardassians do take the name of the mother. Ziyal's name is "Tora Ziyal" and her mom was "Tora Naprem" Since Garak and Tain have different names, thats probably it.

Maybe, but I'd assume it's because Ziyal was raised by her mother. And she's half Bajoran anyway, so why would they follow Cardassian naming customs? I'd tend to agree with Mark Stanley about this.

Why WAS Garak exciled?

I believe Tain had Garak exciled, not because of treason he commited, but because he wanted him out of the way, since he was pressuring Tain to acknoweldge him as a son.
That would have been a liability.
Tain played it well, and even convinced Garak that he(Tain) thought Garak had betrayed him.
Later, Tain ordered him (and others) to be assassinated, since he was about to undertake the biggest operation of his life, the destruction of the Dominion, and he couldn't afford to let live those who had inside info on him, and could possibly thwart his plans. (from this 2-parter, I also surmise that Tain's housekeeper is Garak's mother.)

You surmise right, Timmer!
As for Garek's exile,,........humnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
Consider the facts. Garek could not go home before Cardassia was put to ruins. Now, that it is in ruins, Garek is back, and it looks like he is in charge. Also, there is no one to challenge him this. So, who exiled him, must be dead. Can't be Tain who exiled him(in my mind) because Tain dies two or so years prior, but Garek still seems to be exiled. I wouldn't think it was Dukat, despite his death in the last episode, cause he went crazy, and was kind of in an exile himself. Garek still seems to be stuck on Terok Nor(aka DS9). So With most of the Cardassian puplic dead, I would think the quilty members are dead. I don't think it's nessesscarily all the politcal cabinate, because I would think some would survive the Dominion rampage. Was it the whole Cardassian society that killed Garek, and now welcomes him back to help them, or someone we can quess who is no longer in power due to the dissaster. Who would that be?
I say Garek himself! I think he considers himself an emparrassment due to something he did in the Obsidian Order, and feels ashamed to go back home, and now he has to cause of the disaster, and Garek feels he is responsible, so he is making amends.

i didnt think carddasians have tails

Elim Garak and Ehud Barak: Coincidence?

When exactly was Garak exiled?

It's never specified, Electron. Before the Cardassian withdrawal, but it's uncertain how long before.

Yes, I have some difficulties with Garak being on the Station with Dukat in command. But it looked that way...

Andy Robinson's Trek book "A Stitch in Time" gives fairly concrete answers to most of our questions. Obviously, it's not canonical, but it works very well.

I won't give any spoilers away, most of Robinson's answers are nice and consistent with what we know or think we know about Garak.

He was exiled because he was too "sentimental"


A Stitch in Time is one of my favourite Trek books...

Garak could be the name of an ex-wife or something. It was described in a couple different episodes that Garak had had some relations. I mean if Quark could have been intimate with someone from this board, (Lang) then how hard is it for Elim to get hitched.

and to why Garak was exiled, (the word that people are looking for) it is possible that...

THUD!

The informant has been neutralized.