This is the only episode of TAS that I've seen, and I missed the opening bit. Is there an explanation of why the timeline has jumped a groove? From the plot synopsis, this sounds like a nit worse than the temporal inconsistencies in the DS9 two-parter "Past Tense"...

Well, I can't remember if the episode itself has an explanation, but I believe it's because a time-travelling version of Spock cannot be twice in the past at one time. Therefore, when he visited the past of Orion, he couldn't be on Vulcan saving himself, and so he died. I wonder why this didn't come into effect all the other times he time travelled, though.

It's probably a limitation of the Guardian of Forever, rather than a time-travel limitation in and of itself.

Did anyone else notice (or remember), but I believe the Andorian first officer who replaced Spock in the alternate time line was also a half-human.

I noticed that the Guardian is now able to slow and select specific places and times, something it could not do originally. Other than that, I thought the episode showed a great way to deal with the Guardian--setting it up as a resource tool for historians. It would have to be the most carefully guarded place in the galaxy.

It's non-canonical, but the novel "Federation" has it both of the ways that D.K. talks about.

The Guardian`s voice is different from in "The City On The Edge Of Forever". In "City" the Guardian had an echoing deepish voice, similar to that of Balok. In this his voice just sounds old.

In "City On The Edge Of Forever" everyone on the surface of the planet remembers the Federation when it is erased from history, but in this episode no-one remembers Spock on the surface of the planet after he was erased from history (well, his life older than seven years old was erased from history). Also, in "City" the Enterprise ceased to exist in orbit of the planet, but in this episode Spock still exists when he`s in orbit (well, on the Enterprise in orbit) of the planet.
Does this Guardian have any rules?

Kirk says that Spock couldn`t save his own life in the past because he was in Orion`s past and couldn`t be in two places at once. At once? They were visiting Orion at "the dawn of its civilization". Was that at the same time as Spock was seven years old?

Speaking of seven-year-old Spock, Sarek tells him about others failing the kas-wahn and no-one minding. What does he mean by "failing?" Does he mean giving up and going back to civilization, or does he mean not surviving?

Most of the male extra voices (including the Guardian and Arex) were done by James Doohan. They did have some guest stars reprising their roles from the original series, such as Harry Mudd, Sarek, and Cyrano Jones. David Gerrold even did a Klingon in one episode. Also, most of the female voices were done by Nichelle Nichols and Majel Barret.

Hey! Didn't you notice the Vulcan year, 8877? So the current year would have been 8907 Vulcan Years. Unfortunately we don't know the length of the Vulcan year. But if the sun is 40 Eridani, the year would have to be about 120 days, so 8877 years after Surak--presumably--would be about
2959 terrestrial years; 2959-2270= 689 B.C.
I wonder if the novelists took this into account.
In "Amok Time" Spock says something about humans have no conception of how ancient Vulcan history is, "you humans have no conception." How is this consistent with the information presented in this episode?
Also, Spock says, "Vulcan has no moon" but there's a month of Tasmeen, and two gigantic things in the sky which look like moons. They'd produce gigantic tides, unless they're hollow. Maybe they *are* hollow, artificial space habitats?
What did you think of the novel "Spock's World"?

One of the seh-lat`s fangs seems to have been filed, while the other is sharp. Does anyone know why this is?

Thelin was not identified as being half-human, but his skin colour would suggest he was.

I thought his tooth had broken off in his old age.

The best show of the series. If only they all could have been this good. DC Fonatana obviously spent alot of time on this script. Most of the shows would have been alot better had they just done a few more re-writes, but that was impossible with the budget restraints. They cast never even got to rehearse!!! They did the readings cold!

In fact, according to the Chronology and a couple of other canonical reference books, this is the only animated episode considered remotely canonical by the creators. As that book explains, the creators believe in the I'Chaya subplot although Gene Roddenberry or Denise Okuda (I don't know which) dismissed the Adult Spock time-travel thing as apochryphal.
(Out of, as they said, respect for Dorothy Fontana. Leave it indeed to her to write the only really good episode of TAS!)

Been rewatching the Animateds. Just seen this one
again. It probably is the best of the Animateds.

Two nits though:

Anyone else notice that while on Vulcan in the past, Spock is wearing his Starfleet uniform beneath his robes?

Is the kas-wahn held at a certain time of the year
for all Vulcan children of a certain age? Or only when they reach a certain age (7?, 8?)? That is on the child's birthday? Either way, we have a nit. If the latter, it would mean Spock forgot his birthday. If the former, well Spock should still know when the annual ritual is held. In other words, he should not have had any confusion over when kas-wahn takes place.

One observation; Shatner would probably have hated
this ep had it been made live action. He's in it for so little time. Not to mention that he'd've lost the page count to Nimoy.

I don't believe that Spock forgot when the kas-wahn ritual was, just that his 'Uncle' saved his life before the actual event.

No. Spock was surprised and confused when his Mother told him the kas-wahn was next month.
He began to wonder if he had inadvertently changed the timeline, until he remembered that his younger self had went on a "trial run", shall we say, of the kas-wahn.

Another thing that bothered me, even when I first
say this one many moons ago. The Vulcan kids who
taunt Spock, one of these pure-blooded, supposedly unemotional kids, is smiling.
And Spock is the one who's a disgrace?

Were there no Vulcan parents around to discuss the illogic of calling a child names? After all, name-calling was not going to change anything.

According to the Concordance, the Vulcan months are actually seasons.

I have created a animated Star Trek comic book based on this episode for my TAS website. It can be found here...
http://www.mainengineering.hispeed.com/tas_comic_main.html

Please visit, and let me know what you think!!

Thank you!

So far, so good. I see you're using the photonovel approach. Still, there are some interesting page layouts and panel arrangements. I do wish you had numbered each page on the page, however. A few thoughts as I go along (some nits on the ep & the comic).

On page three, panel two, the image of Kirk is backwards. I know the insignia is in the right place, but Kirk's hair is parted on the wrong side.

Was that Sulu who accompanied Kirk and Spock into the Guardian to view Orion history? At any rate, there was a third person with them. Throughout the ep, Kirk says he's "the only" one of the Enterprise crew who knows Spock. Doesn't the third person/Sulu recognize Spock?

Spock says "Selek" is a common name in his family. (Must make the family gatherings interesting. "Selek, I wish to speak to you." Twenty heads turn.) Is it an otherwise uncommon name on Vulcan?

Odd seeing Kirk and Spock shake hands. Did they do that in any other episode?

Considering how specific Spock was about "Selek's" lineage ("A humble cousin descended of T'Pel and Sasak"), it's almost remarkable that Spock's family never heard from Selek again. (Well, aside from the fact that he was Spock as an adult. Perhaps I should say that
inquiries about "Selek" should yield some interesting results.)

By the way, I wonder if Sarek remembered Selek and ever commented on how much his son, Spock resembled him?
"Selek" journeyed to Sarek's city to "the family shrine to honor our gods." Vulcans have gods? Is this truly logical?

Sarek chides young for brawling in the streets like "a common deckhand". Do Vulcans sailors fight? Are they more emotional, for some reason, than other Vulcans?

After Amanda notices that young Spock and "Selek" are missing, Sarek says he will notify the authority. Sounds like he's calling the cops. Does Vulcan need a police force? How logical is a life of crime? Also, Amanda asks her husband if he thinks "Selek" will harm young Spock. Is this a logical question or even a logical course of action for a Vulcan - to harm children?

After dealing with the le-matya, "Selek" talks with young spock. "Selek" appears to be smiling.

Is having a pet really logical? It seems to me we humans keep animals as pets for emotional companionship.

Why would Kirk send the rest of the landing party back to the ship? Spock wasn't going to be gone that long. At least not according to "The City On the Edge of Forever". In that ep, Kirk, Spock and McCoy were gone only seconds before returning. Even McCoy complains about how long Kirk and Spock were gone in this ep.

Overall, Kail, this was very good. Again, I like the page layout; it was very easy to follow the story. I think you did an excellent job of choosing what clip to use to move the action along. Thanks for sharing this. Will you be doing any more episodes?

Spock says "Selek" is a common name in his family. (Must make the family gatherings interesting. "Selek, I wish to speak to you." Twenty heads turn.)

When I was in High School (more years ago than I care to admit), there were 7 -- count them 7 -- Scotts in the band. Three of us were in the trumpet section. Made things kind of interesting when the director looked at the trumpets and said "Scott".

Benn, thanks for looking, and I appreciate your comments.

About Kirk's hair, your right, the image is indeed flipped. The creators often did this sort of thing with TAS. In fact, there are several images in the comic that I did it as well, changing the insignia, just to make it look different. One of the challanges of making the comic was finding enough pictures to use without repeating them. This was tough considering how much they re-used the drawings. In fact, there are several panels of the comic that I "created" because I ran out of images to tell the story. I guess I must have done a pretty good job on them, so far no one has noticed. (/:-)

It was not Sulu with Kirk and Spock, but a red shirt named Erickson. Your right, Kirk's comment about he being the only one to remember Spock is a nit. Another nit I found, but had never noticed before, is when Kirk asks the guardian a question on page 10, but it never responds.

I do not recall Kirk and Spock shaking hands any other time, however they do have their arms around each other in a show of friendship in one ep. They were both drugged however.

Sarek's comments about deckhands might refer to ships other then Vulcan. It also might explain the need for some sort of police force, to keep the "aliens" on Vulcan in line.

Vulcan's could have gods that date back thousands of years before the time of logic. Perhaps they are kept more as tradition then anything else.

Of course Kirk sending everyone up to the ship toward the end is a plot device, so we could have the scene in the transporter room with McCoy.

Your also right that the guardian seems to operate differently in this episode than in the TOS ep.

Again, thanks for your comments. I worked very hard on the page layouts, to make the story easy to follow. I think I got better as I went along, trying to make each page different, and treating each one as a seperate piece of art. Whether or not I do another one depends on the response I get from this one. If people really like it, I will.

This story makes no sense.

Kirk noted that when they went back to Orion's past, it prevented Spock from being in 2 places at once...thus preventing Spock from saving his younger self on Vulcan.

So...why did Spock go back to save his younger self BEFORE "Yesteryear" happened if the timeline was correct to begin with? AND if it was incorrect, how did Spock know it was incorrect seeing everyone knew who he was before "Yesteryear" happened. The story noted that no one knew who he was until AFTER rematerializing from the Guardian of Forever.
(I need an aspirin)

Temporaral mechanics give me a headache.

That should read, "Temporal mechanics give me a headache." I need some asprin. Mr. Chakotay, I'll be in Sickbay.

One more thing I thought was kinda odd, even though Vulcans always seem to be dressed in robes and such, according to this episode, the children all dress in little skimpy shorts. Weird.

According to this ep, Spock is 27-37 years old. (The historians were observing Vulcan history "20-30 years past".)

Spock has the proper clothing to wear for travelling back in time on Vulcan. Yet he waits until he has gone through the Guardian of Forever to change out of his Starfleet uniform. Why? Wouldn't it be better for him to arrive already properly attired?

Is it just me or do the Vulcan children sound a lot like the cast of a Charlie Brown cartoon?

It kinda cracks me up to hear the lematya roar like Godzilla. It seems so out of place.

It is this episode that establishes that Vulcans have emotions. However, they control their emotions, rather than being controlled by them.

I haven't seen this ep since it first aired in the 1970's! Does the Godzilla voice refer to the actual movie Godzilla, or the animated one that came out a couple years after ST: TAS?

It's the roar of the movie Godzilla. I kept expecting the lematya to trample a toy replica of Tokyo.

It is this episode that establishes that Vulcans have emotions. However, they control their emotions, rather than being controlled by them. - Benn

I thought this was first mentioned in TOS... The Savage Curtain (where we meet Surak) maybe?

And to remove all doubt, Sarek(TNG) explicitly states that Vulcans have emotions.

Oh, and I'd almost say that The Naked Time(TOS) established that Vulcans have emotions.

"It is this episode that establishes that Vulcans have emotions. However, they control their emotions, rather than being controlled by them. - Benn"

"I thought this was first mentioned in TOS... The Savage Curtain (where we meet Surak) maybe?" -Darth Sarcasm

"The Savage Curtain" further established that at one point in their history, Vulcans had strong, violent emotions. But in general, throughout TOS, the Vulcans were portrayed as being unemotional. That is, from the time of Surak on they had conquered their emotions. At least that's the impression I got from the series. I could be wrong (and probably am).

"And to remove all doubt, Sarek(TNG) explicitly states that Vulcans have emotions." - ScottN

Uh, that's quite a few years after TAS, though, isn't it?

"Oh, and I'd almost say that The Naked Time(TOS) established that Vulcans have emotions." - ScottN again

No. It established that the Enterprise's half-human Vulcan science officer, Mr. Spock has emotions.

Just to clarify, Spock explicitly tells his younger self that Vulcans have emotions. Present tense. Up to that point, it seemed to me, Vulcans were written as beings who had no emotions. That Spock would often slip and show emotions (see "The Amok Time" for a classic example), was chalked up as being a result of his human half.

Star Trek - The Motion Picture furthered estaablished that Vulcans have emotions (the kolinar ritual). But it just seems to me that this Animated ep is the first to expressly state that Vulcans still have emotions.

Sarek expressed some emotion in "Journey to Babel" I believe. Not smiling or anything, but isn't this the episode in which he said, "My logic is uncertain where my son is concerned" or am I misremembering?

No. That was said in Star Trek III - The Search for Spock as Sarek requested the Faltorr Pan (sp?) ritual to reintegrate Spock's soul in his body.

Drat. Thanks Benn. Didn't he say something rather emotional in Journey to Babel though?

I think he may have smiled for Amanda. But I'd write that off as being done for her sake. There may not be any real emotions behind it. Just a simulation of emotions.

Sarek's final line in Journey to Babel, in response to the question of why he married Amanda was "At the time, it seemed the logical thing to do."

"At the time" -- Logic doesn't changeover time; Emotional responses do.

"it seemed" -- Logic is; emotions seem.

He was clearly answering that it was an emotional response, even while pretending to attempt to uphold the myth of Vulcan inpertubability. He knew that everyone in Sickbay would understand. (He must have known that Kirk and McCoy had already learned about Ponn Farr)

That's one of my favourite lines from TOS.
Translated:
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."

How come Sarek didn't see the adult Spock's black tunic collar nor his command stripes underneath the robe?

There's a moon in orbit around Vulcan...according to Spock in "The Man Trap", Vulcan has no moon.

It isnt a moon it is a planet in a synchronous orbit. At least according to the Worlds of the Federation.

That planet is awful close then, or very, very large.

Its big, really big....

That's no moon...it's a space station

"At the Time." Logic very well does change. A logical statement is one where the all the premises support the conclusion. So Sarek had a different set of facts at the time of his marriage.

Based on the Vulcan beliefs about the soul, and what we have seen about it, having ancestrial gods seem probable. After all, if Sargon's People were able to live in non-corporial state, why couldn't Vulcans, their descendents.

In supplement to my last post, Amanda may have been less annoying than she was in the present (which is ironically, the future, I think.) Perhaps Sarek's logic was that marrying a human would improve his abilities as a Vulcan Diplomat, while he decided that wasn't as pressing need in his middle age, as not being annoyed was.

Hm. Apparently since "The City On the Edge of Forever", somebody has taken time out to rearrange the ruins surrounding the Guardian of Forever. They look completely different than the first time we saw them. There are fewer ruins surrounding the Guardian now.

Given the nature of the Guardian, you wouldn't think it'd be so easy for someone to have access to it. From what we see in this ep, all someone has to do is park their ship in orbit and beam right down. Considering that history had already been changed once because of someone's use of the Guardian, there'd be some very stringent securtiy measures surrounding the planet to keep it from happening again. (Like it does in this ep. I hope they've since beefed up the security for the Guardian.)

Wow. For some reason, when they beam back aboard the Enterprise, the landing party, at the start of this ep, have life support belts on. Well, Kirk, Spock and McCoy do. Erickson, the redshirt officer, doesn't. Then again, he is a red shirt, so maybe he was expected to be killed before too long.

Originally, when this ep first aired, wasn't Thelin's skin the same color as Kirk and McCoy's? On the DVD, it's a green/grey in color.

Am I the only one who finds it difficult to believe that Spock could have forgotten he underwent the kahs-wan early? For that matter, given all the rigorous mental disciplines Vulcans undergo and Spock's memory and ability to calculate complex math problems in his head, it's really hard for me to believe that Spock has such vague memories of his childhood.

When Adult Spock is dictating his log entry in his parents' home, he is dressed in what I presume is nightclothes. He does not have his Starfleet uniform on underneath the robe. However, when he chases after his younger self, he does have his uniform on.

I dunno. Young Spock's hand looks a little too small when he raises it when he's talking about demonstrating a Vulcan neck pinch to his schoolmates.

"Live long and prosper."

SPECIAL VOICE: Mark Lenard as Sarek

I wonder why they didn't paint the general area around the Guardian as seen in City On The Edge Of Forever, and then expand that out towards the horizon? The surroundings are completely different.

Too bad they couldn't bring in Bart LaRue to voice the Guardian. After watching so many TAS episodes it's way too easy to tell when Jimmy Doohan is doing the voice. I wonder why they didn't slow down the tempo or make it echo or SOMETHING to make his various other voices differentiate between all of the previous ones?

I wonder how a furry, shaggy teddy bear like I-Chaya evolved on a hot, desert planet like Vulcan? Isn't that like Egypt or Arabia possessing grizzly bears?

Typical parent! Sarek admonishes Spock for his behavior around other kids, but THEY were the ones that were rude and were taunting him! How logical was that?

Vulcan DO lie, contrary to popular belief; Spock claims to be 'Selek'. That's not even an exageration.

How could Spock have forgotten the details of his running away early to undergo the kahs-wan? Simple; the guy had his brain removed and not all of his memories are in order yet.

That Vulcan doctor was a bit of a jerk wasn't he? He claimed that Spock had a reputation for playing practical jokes (plural). Spock pulled a single prank, 2 years earlier, and yet this old guy thinks he's still tricking people? How did he come to this conclusion?

Oyy... that Guardian voice was TERRIBLE!

IIRC, Benn, the Star Trek Log novelizations of these episodes did indeed mention something about far more stringent security protocols around the Guardian. Though I could just be confused.

The Remastered TOS version of Amok Time now includes a CG representation on the city as Spock sees it when emerging from the Guardian, in the background- which I call a darn nice touch! :-)

IIRC, Benn, the Star Trek Log novelizations of these episodes did indeed mention something about far more stringent security protocols around the Guardian. Though I could just be confused.- Zarm R'keeg

It hasn't been that long ago that I've re-read Alan Dean Foster's adaptation of "Yesteryear". And he does indeed go into quite a bit of detail about the security measures taken to protect the Guardian of Forever. It's just that the episode itself makes no mention, much else gives any indication, of any security measures.

Live long and prosper.

At one point, Sarek mentions that he will notify "the authorities" regarding young Spock & "Selek".

However, "the authorities" never show up anywhere in this episode

Space donuts?

Anyone else notice that while on Vulcan in the past, Spock is wearing his Starfleet uniform beneath his robes?

Yeah, I was going to post that as a nit (Netflix delivered the DVD today).

The Vulcan kids certainly didn't seem logical, but rather emotional and mean-spirited.

Well according to other Trek shows Vulcans have the same emotions as humans and it's only through discipline that they suppress them in favor of logic. The kids probably haven't mastered that yet.

The text commentary mentions that the opulance of Spock's home is reminiscent of the Vulcan jewelry from the Star Trek movies.
Since the animated series came first it should be that the jewelry of the films is reminiscent of the Vulcan home.
Also a bunch of the decorations reminded me of the more abstract science fiction novel covers of the 1960s.

It's interesting watching the ship insignias on the uniforms in this episode.They often are at an angle instead of straight.Kirk's black star within his insignia at one point was larger than it should be.Spock's circle symbols within his insignia were completely missing in one scene,it had a thick horizontal line across the middle instead.I wish Jimmy Doohan had tried to imitate the resonate sound of the voice of the Guardian from the live action episode "The City On the Edge of Forever."Instead we got a silly sounding voice as though the Guardian was attempting to scare children on Halloween.In spite of that though I agree with the posters here that this is one of the finest episodes of the animated TV series & DC Fontana did an outstanding job.

Benn (Benn) on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:30 am: Originally, when this ep first aired, wasn't Thelin's skin the same color as Kirk and McCoy's? On the DVD, it's a green/grey in color.
I think I read somewhere that he had an Aenar ancestor.

Kail on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 6:46 am:
I have created a animated Star Trek comic book based on this episode for my TAS website. It can be found here...
http://www.mainengineering.hispeed.com/tas_comic_main.html
Please visit, and let me know what you think!!
Thank you!
I have just tried the link, and got a message that the domain is up for sale!

I googled and found it at this new address.
http://startrekanimated.com/tas_comic01_main.html

When Spock dispatches the Le-Matya, its head disappears for a second, leaving only a neck stump visible.