---Synopsis:
After intervening in a conflict between two alien races, Harry Kim is enlisted by one of them to command a small prototype vessel of theirs on an important mission, but the difficulties of command weigh heavily on the inexperienced ensign.
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By Richie Vest
By Anonymous on Friday, November 17, 2000 - 12:19 pm:
Looks like another "reset button" episode.
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By Anonymous on Saturday, November 18, 2000 - 10:29 pm:
Does anyone know if they even PLAN to promote Harry before the series ends? He deserves a promotion as much as anyone else, and he's still an ensign!
"Why didn't I see a little box on my chair?" Yeah, why not?
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By Shane Tourtellotte on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 11:38 am:
Six days after the episode, and I have the first nits. That has to be a record. :-)
47 of the week -- Difficulty Level: Easy -- Janeway's log, Stardated 54274.7.
Voyager is undergoing a massive maintenance overhaul. Torres is swamped with work. So where are Kim and 7, two of the ship's more skilled engineers? Off in the Delta Flyer, searching for dilithium. Come on, it isn't as if this job required engineers. Neelix is along for the ride!
"The Borg value efficiency," 7 states, "not redundancy." Funny, I thought Borg cubes had a whole series of redundant systems to keep them operational despite immense damage.
As usual, someone completely new to a ship(Kim on the 'Nightingale') can figure out their systems and controls with a quick glance.
Two really picky points. First, a couple of "Yes, ma'ams" from Kim outside of a crunch situation. Second, Kim says he's been an ensign for seven years, when by Stardates he's only been aboard Voyager for six. (And remember, Voyager was his first mission, so he didn't have a year in rank before that.)
Interesting to hear Janeway state that Kim outranks 7 because she has no rank. We've seen her take command in situations before, over people with Starfleet rank.
And yes, Kim's actions helping the Kraylor(sp?) get home even after learning their true mission are rather questionable. I guess we'll save it for the court-martial, one of many I anticipate once this ship returns to Earth.
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By omnidragon on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 1:39 pm:
what is wrong has noone posted anything in weeks?
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By Anonymous on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 1:42 pm:
Yes, we all realized Voyager had gotten terribly bad and developed new interests.
Omnidragon -- read the Chief's post at the main board -- the board has been non-functional for days at a time.
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By Spornan on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 4:12 pm:
Well I didn't write down my nits this week, cause the board wasn't working, but I will tell you what I do remember.
Lots of IMPULSE.
Even Harry's ship, 5 seconds after going to warp, is suddenly cruising at impulse.
I tell ya, it's getting ridiculous.
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By Corey Hines on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 4:17 pm:
The Kraylor ship was a re-use of a Federation fighter.
The whole command structure needs to be looked at here although I realize it is a different set of circumstances. In this ep, Kim says he's a junior officer, yet he always shows up for senior staff meetings, right from the begining of series. Janeway says Seven doesn't have a rank, yet she's also at the senior staff meetings, and can even call for red alert. Kim should have been promoted since he has saved the ship on many of occasions. But under normal circumstances, I don't think he would have been a Lt. Commander already, if he was home, he probably would have been killed in the Dominion War.
When Seven gets hit by the small explosion, she's pretty far away and there's someone between it and her and she's still able to get knocked out.
Why didn't they install a cloaking device on the Voyager? It would help them out of many a jam. Their in contact with Starfleet, they should know that cloaking devices are legal in the Federation. And the Defiant used theirs all the time when they weren't supposed to.
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By WhoreBath on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 9:12 pm:
Actually "Anonymous", the "BOX" is always on Janeway's chair.
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By Steve Oostrom on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 10:49 pm:
It must be Janeway's great fortune that she landed her ship pretty well on the edge of the Annari space. Afterall, when the two Annari vessels orders her ship out of their space under escort, she protests that the warp drive is not available. The Annari said they will travel at impulse. Not too long after, they reach the border. Considering that under impulse, a ship isn't going anywhere very fast (astonomically speaking), that planet they landed at must have been on the edge of Annari space.
Also, it's nice that the Kraylor ship's doors have also been reading the script, and not opening for Seven after her talk with Kim. She looked like she was beginning to leave, but the door knew she had more lines and so obediently did not open for her.
It's too bad that the Kraynor, already mass-producing their cloaking devices by the end of the episode, didn't provide Voyager with one. It might prove to be useful.
I also question the Kraynor position. Their homeworld is apparently blockaded by the Annari (why was never disclosed, why this war?) and this is seen as dire by the Kraynor. Have they damaged their own planet that much? Apparently they have shielding technology to protect the whole planet (indicating a high level of technological expertise in this race), and this seems to work. Somehow, a planet should be self-sustaining, even if not at the lifestyle that the Kraynor have become accustomed to.
Also, wasn't it convenient that on the initial attack by the Annari, all the officers but one were killed but apparently no passengers? I guess those pyrotechnic effects happen only on the bridge and other areas the officers are at.
Of course, need I mention this... Kim has the alien ship figured out immediately, can read the Kraynor language and understands their measuring system and graphics, and of course, can talk to the Kraynor immediately (not even time for the universal translator to learn the language!) and of course the Delta Flyer comm systems are compatible with the Kraynor (and Annari) systems. But then this happens in every episode.
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By KAM on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 12:27 am:
Anonymous: Yes, we all realized Voyager had gotten terribly bad and developed new interests.
LOL
Spornan: I thought you would have been complaining that Voyager wasn't moving at all. "They're not even going impluse? Aaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!"
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By AI Fix on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 8:13 am:
Opportunity for a great line:
(After the alien woman succumbs to the toxic gases in engineering)
Harry: "How's Dala?"
Alien doctor: "She's dead, Kim"
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 3:00 pm:
Corey Hines, where did you get the idea that cloaking devices were legal? They still violate the treaty of Algeron to my knowledge. The only reason that the Defiant had one is because it was due to an agreement with the Romulans that they would only use it in the Delta Quadrant in reaction to the Dominion.
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 3:09 pm:
That should have been Gamma Quadrant.
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By The Undesirable Element on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 3:52 pm:
Jwb52z: I think you mean the Gamma Quadrant
Spornan: Give the impulse thing a rest K.
Steve: There's never a good reason for war. Also Kim can figure out the alien ship because he spent several days on board. There is dialog near the beginning to confirm this.
Corey: Kim is a junior officer by rank because he is an ensign. He is a senior officer in his department because, presumably, everyone else has a lower rank than he does. (Crewman is lower than Ensign right?) He's a junior officer who happens to be chief of operations. He gets the best of both worlds. Seven goes to the staff meetings because of her vast experience in everything.
Enough with the Anti-nits, on to the nits.
1. Why did Kim initially put the young kid at the helm? Neelix had years of experience prior to joining Voyager. Put him at the helm. It would give the furball something to do.
2. Kim's mistakes during his stint as captain are blatantly obvious. Commanding Voyager on the night shift should have been enough to get rid of the dumb problems that he had.
3. Why do they keep talking about Captain Proton? I thought Tom said he was shutting the program down after the events in "Bride of Chaotica"?
4. Why can't Kim be promoted but Tuvok and Paris can?
Nifty shots of Voyager on the surface. Complete with little people walking around on the hull and a crane lifting a warp coil out of a nacelle.
That is all from your friendly Undesirable Element.
See ya later.
TUE
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By Adam Bomb on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 7:30 pm:
I enjoyed seeing Ron Glass again. I have rarely seen him since my second fave sitcom "Barney Miller" went off in 1982. (For the record, my fave sitcom is the classic 39 of the "Honeymooners".)
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By Adam Bomb on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 7:33 pm:
Those shots of Voyager on the planet undergoing an overhaul were WAY cool, especially when we see people walking on the hull. And yes, promote Harry, for crying out loud.
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By Benjamin Daniel Cohen (Bcohen) on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 8:48 pm:
Wait a sec, Voyager is undergoing a full maintenance overhaul AGAIN? That's strange. In "Body and Soul", Janeway's voiceover at the beginning stated that they had just completed a maintenance overhaul at some alien spacestation (can't remember the specific name). Do they overhaul the Voyager every week?
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By Keith Alan Morgan (Kmorgan) on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 12:27 am:
Janeway tells B'Elanna, "With him (Icheb) on your team maybe we'll get this job done." Gee, Captain, what a great way to show the faith you have in your engineering team. 'You lazy bums don't know what you're doing so I'm assigning the Borg kid to do the real work.'
Why not recomposite the dilithium crystals they do have?
Weapons fire, but the Delta Flyer doesn't take any evasive maneuvers?
So Harry's going to look at the cloak, eh? What does a Federation trained Ensign know about cloaking technology? Voyager left the Alpha Quadrant a short time after the Romulans gave the Federation permission to install a cloaking field on the Defiant.
What good is a cloak if the ship still causes a flash when it zips to warp?
Was the background that we see out of Voyager's window the same one we see in The 37's?
Harry goes to warp 6 while still in a solar system?
So why isn't Harry this much of a mother hen when he commands Voyager's nightshift?
Adam: I believe Ron Glass was also on a short lived remake of The Odd Couple.
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By Ghel on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 10:17 am:
>>>Why not recomposite the dilithium crystals they do have?
They probably can't find any nuclear wessles :o)
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By PaulG on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 6:22 pm:
More late nits:
Pardon me for asking, but what exactly is the point of having sensors on the Delta Flyer? Week after week, hostile aliens ships (including Borg cubes) show up at point blank range and no one notices them until they start firing. Maybe they should implement the LOTW sensor system (also known as the "Look Out The Window" system). Can't be any worse than the "Sense the Blindingly Obvious" sensors they bought from Betazed.
The Prime Directive has been trampled on beyond all recognition. That's not surprising. However, Janeway's reaction certainly is. Paris' actions in "30 Days" certainly wasn't much worse than Harry's but Kim gets the mild criticism while Tom gets solitary in the brig.
Echab went to Sick Bay to fix the emitters but became sidetracked. He forgot to actually fix the problem.
When the alien ship is orbiting Voyager's uninhabited planet, the ship has its cloaking device offline. This makes little sense to me. The enemy ships have been in the area, they are planning to return and Voyager is defenseless. Unless the cloak is broken or they have some other way of hiding, it should be on.
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By KAM on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 4:20 am:
Ghel: LOL ;-)
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By Jwb52z on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 2:02 pm:
PaulG, think about it this way, humanitarian AIDE is not against the prime directive as long as it does not interfere with the development of the society as a whole. In addition, Harry was tricked by those scientists into helping. He would not have helped if he had known that he was helping them transport cloaking technology in a war.
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By Rene on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 2:07 pm:
But after he did find out, he still helped. That was just plain wrong! Major violation of the Prime Directive. There is no way to get around that.
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By Jwb52z on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 5:17 pm:
Rene, think about it, would you rather risk never being allowed to return home and possibly be put in prison and hurt or help them? He shouldn't be held responsible for what became a simple matter of self preservation.
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By Adam Bomb on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 8:01 pm:
Where does Voyager get parts for these frequent overhauls? Is Pep Boys still around in the 24th Century? Have they expanded their inventory to include starship parts? I guess all the available space on Earth was taken up, so they had to branch out into the Delta Quadrant. To Keith-The show was called the "New Odd Couple", but I think that most of the shows ware remakes of the Klugman-Randall shows. It did have John Schuck as Murray the Cop, later to appear Star Treks IV and VI as the Klingon Ambassador.
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By Rene on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 8:10 pm:
Prime Directive : General Order Number. Starfleet took an oath that they wouldn't violate it....even to save their life. At the very least, he should have been punished like Paris was.
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By Jwb52z on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 9:00 pm:
Rene, the mitigating circumstances would discount that breech.
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By Rene on Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 6:07 am:
You're giving me a headache. There SHOULD have been consequences for Harry. Or is Janeway playing favorites.
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By Josh M on Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 9:45 am:
I don't see why Kim thinks he should be a Lt Commander. Data has been one for at least 11 years. Kim would have go through three ranks to get to Lt Commander. In 11 years LaForge went thru two, Worf went thru two, and in 7 years Bashir went from Lt jg to full Lt. The point is, if these guys couldn't get promoted that much, i doubt that Kim could. He should be a Lt, though.
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By Jwb52z on Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 10:21 am:
Rene you can't hold people responsible in a situation where it is a war like conflict in Harry's situation, unless they are the aggressors of the conflict. Harry is simply an outsider who was hoodwinked and then made the best out of a bad situation.
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By PaulG on Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 6:15 pm:
Jwb52z: You are generally correct that providing humanitarian aid is not a violation of the Prime Directive (except for not warp capable races). However, Harry did not just provide humanitarian aid. He attacked an alien ship with no provocation. He involved Voyager in a war when he knows nothing about either race or the the circumstances. He probably totally botched a double First Contact. This was a major violation (though similar to the actions of Janeway in "Imperfection" - he learned from the master).
In addition, Harry's actions could have (and may still) backfire. By helping the Kraylor smuggle the cloaking device to their homeworld, the entire balance of power in this area has been altered. And, though I think we all sympathize with the Kraylor more than their enemies, we still do not know the true circumstances of this war. Will the Kraylor now use the cloak to break the blockade and save their world or will they use the tactical advantage to crush the entire sector under their heal? The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
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By Dustin Westfall on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 11:53 am:
Rene, think about it, would you rather risk never being allowed to return home and possibly be put in prison and hurt or help them? He shouldn't be held responsible for what became a simple matter of self preservation.
**
Rene, the mitigating circumstances would discount that breech.
**
Rene you can't hold people responsible in a situation where it is a war like conflict in Harry's situation, unless they are the aggressors of the conflict. Harry is simply an outsider who was hoodwinked and then made the best out of a bad situation.
- Jwb52z
There is a major flaw in your reasoning. Harry is a MILITARY officer. He has, or at least should have been, trained to handle himself in such situations. Being captured by a potentially hostile race is hardly a mitigating circumstance. (Heck, he has been captured by hostile races many times before. If anything, he should be able to benefit from the experience.)
It might be believable that the inexperienced (at command) Ensign might choose to complete the mission, despite the consequeces. However, that, by no means, makes it right. That type of reasoning would allow soldiers interred at POW camps to side with the enemy without consequence. In both this episode and "Flesh and Blood," Janeway ignored the issues involved and forgave them, despite her own previous actions against Paris, et. al.
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By Jwb52z on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 2:09 pm:
Dustin, as has been said before, Starfleet is not really a military organization in the way we think of them now, in dialogue. I still stand by my words that Paris' actions were different because it was a direct defiance of the Captain. BTW, I agree with Janeway when she said to the doctor, "How can I hold you responsible for what you've become" or something like that.
By Rene on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 4:19 pm:
In what way isn't Starfleet a military organization? Of course it is! The only reasons Harry didn't get punished is because Janeway's playing favorites.
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By PaulG on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 6:41 pm:
In one episode, there was a comment made by Deanna Troi that Star Fleet was not a military organization. However, Star Fleet has all the warships and fights all the wars, the crews are well armed and trained in combat, they use military ranks and observe chain of command and otherwise act like a military organization. I believe what she meant is that Star Fleet is not *exclusively* a military organization in that it also takes part in exploration, scientific studies, emergency operations, diplomacy, etc. But there can be no doubt that Harry Kim is indeed a military officer.
And I am sorry but I do not buy the theory that Paris is punished because he violated a direct order and Kim did not. Kim violated the Prime Directive which is a standing order that supposeably supercedes even the captain's authority. He even admitted it was wrong to get involved before he became involved. He knew he broke the rules yet Janeway let him off with no punishment whatsoever. And if Janeway is going to vary the severity of punishment depending on her mood (severe if she's angry, light or none if she empathsizes), she should be removed from command.
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By Jwb52z on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 6:52 pm:
I can't believe it is a military organization because they only fight when they have to do so. I don't consider them a military organization for that reason. The military we have to do seem, to me, to be just a bit too ready to fight for my tastes. Punishment in the case of Voyager's situation is what is called "Captain's prerogative."
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By Jwb52z on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 6:52 pm:
That should say "The military we have do seem...."
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By Dustin Westfall on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 11:20 pm:
With respect, I completely disagree with that statement. No properly trained and disciplined military officer will start a battle without orders and/or provocation.
Also, while punishment is, as you say, "Captain's Perogative," discipline that is inconsistent or arbitrary is not discipline at all.
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By Rene on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 6:31 am:
Come on! "Captain's Perogative"! You can't honestly believe that! It's contradictory. Harry knew it was wrong! He knew he was violating the Prime Directive when he took action...and his actions may have affected the balance of power in the region...that, by definition, is a major violation of the Prime Directive. There should have been consequences.
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By PaulG on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 12:16 pm:
Jwb52z: Military organizations are not defined by their aggression level. They are defined as organizations that fight wars, whether they be offensive or defensive. Aggression and pacifism (as Sun Tsu rightly stated) are issues for the politicians, not the military.
And I have to agree with Dustin. Inconsistent discipline is not discipline.
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By Jwb52z on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 12:39 pm:
PaulG, then you probably wouldn't agree on different punishments depending on the person or child, in some cases, would you?
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By PaulG on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 2:09 pm:
Jwb52z: Please, keep your strawmen to yourself.
Consistency in discipline is not a matter of providing identical punishments to the same crime (though it can be depending on the situation). However, it must be predictable and performed without bias and similar circumstances must produce similar results. If one person gets a severe punishment and another gets no punishment for committing the same offense under similar circumstances, then the discipline is arbitrary. If the rules can be rewritten like that, then the rules are worthless.
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By Jwb52z on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 3:53 pm:
PaulG, all we can do is talk in hypotheticals here, so my "straw man" is not something to just be thrown away. I simply asked the question to see what your views about discipline were. There was no ulterior motive.
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By Sparrow47 on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:02 pm:
This episode is one that highlights Voyager's main problem: The writers don't have any ideas about how the characters should actually behave. How is this, you ask? Read on.
First of all, let us ask, "How much has Harry Kim grown over the years?" When he first showed up on "Caretaker", he was portrayed as uber-naive, inexperienced, and gullable. Here, in season seven, we are still supposed to belive that he can be uber-naive and gullable. But experienced? Well, he has spent the last 6+ years on a starship, and also spent a loooong time as the night shift captain. He's also been the chief of operations for those 6+ years. So yes, he is experienced. But along comes "Nightingale". Kim has been accruing LOTS of command experience over the years. Even without the night shift spot, there has to be more people in his department, right? Of course. So he's been commanding them, right? So has there ever been anything said about him being heavy-handed or overly intrusive in command? No! But that's just what he is, according to this episode. Why? Because nobody in the writing department could connect the fact that Kim had done all of this commanding with the episode at hand. It's a sad, sad thing. So the real reason Kim's never been promoted is that whenever someone proposes it, the rest of the writers get this frown and say, "Well, isn't he a lieutenant already?"
Oh, and for an actual nit, when Kim is griping about how he could be a Lt. Commander by now, he skips the Lt. (j.g.) rank. Oops! But I suppose Kim probably could have risen that far if they were in the Alpha Quadrant, seeing as though they give out promotions like candy out there (i.e., Nog... who never graduated from Starfleet Academy)
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By Jwb52z on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 8:28 pm:
:: (i.e., Nog... who never graduated from Starfleet Academy):: Sparrow
Nog's situation was different because it was during a war.
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By Anonymouse on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 6:46 am:
One could argue, however, that Harry's situation is equally "different" because it is during a time of extreme crisis, i.e., a ship cut off from the aid of the Fleet.
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By PaulG on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 11:02 am:
For once, I have to agree with Jwb52z. Wars tends to rapidly accelerate promotions as (1) the size of the military tends to increase a great deal and they need more higher ranking officers to fill new positions, (2) higher ranking officers are killed and wounded faster and need to be replaced and (3) real combat situations tend to reveal who has real command talent and those people get promoted faster while those without talent get reassigned or are demoted and cause new vacancies. However, usually after the war is over and military downsizes, many of the quickly promoted officers are demoted again as the need for officers is reduced.
My opinion on Harry is that he should have been promoted by now, even if it is just a symbolic promotion. He is a member of the senior staff that has a great amount of responsibility yet he is outranked by a good portion of the crew that he supposeably commands. While the closed environment does not really need a promotion (the senior staff since Caretaker is still alive and he can not transfer to another ship or take the place of a retired or resigned officer), he could be bumped to Lt JG without upsetting the chain of command (Paris would still have seniority over him).
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By Jwb52z on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 1:35 pm:
:: One could argue, however, that Harry's situation is equally "different" because it is during a time of extreme crisis, i.e., a ship cut off from the aid of the Fleet.:: Anonymous
That's what I was trying to say.
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By Rene on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 1:42 pm:
He was talking about Harry's rank, Jwb. You're still wrong about him not getting punishement.
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By Jwb52z on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 6:50 pm:
Rene, I think the same idea applies to his punishment as to everything else. They are in a unique situation that requires special provisions for most situations.
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By Anonymous on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 7:53 pm:
Somehow the term "humanitarian" doesn't sound quite right when applied to an alien race. "Mission of mercy" might have been a better fit, since it's not species-specific and the Kraylor survivors did initially claim to be medical personnel.
Maybe I missed something, but I wasn't sure why the Kraylor needed a commander from outside in the first place. The survivors seemed to have more than enough knowledge of their ship to run it and get themselves home, and they had no trouble working as a team when they turned against Harry.
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By Rene on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 8:06 pm:
Then why weren't these special circumstances applied to Paris?
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By Len on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 11:49 am:
Maybe b/c Paris was on probation from his jail sentence (back in Caretaker)? So a stricter standard is applicable?
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 12:24 pm:
Rene, Janeway specifically told Paris to not do what he did when he suggested it. Direct defiance is one of the differences.
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By Rene on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 1:28 pm:
Okay...so why wasn't his co-conspirator arrested as well? Torres egged him on to do something!!!
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By PaulG on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 2:48 pm:
I do not think the probation explanation works. "Thirty Days" did not happen until season five. At that point, he was a trusted member of the crew and his past had not been an issue for a long time. (BTW, did they ever explain why Chakotay despised him so much at the start of the series?)
And I do not think that Janeway has to remind her people not to fire upon strange alien ships except in self-defense and similar circumstances (this is not a similar circumstance and Kim knew it). And even if the direct defiance were to rank a stronger punishment (and it could), Kim received no punishment whatsoever. The Prime Directive is not supposed to be optional, especially for junior officers.
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 7:00 pm:
Rene, I agree she should have something like a verbal reprimand, but Paris was the one who actually DID it. PaulG, there is something called "mitigating circumstances." You can't hold someone responsible for actions such as Kim's in that situation, you just CAN'T.
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By Rene on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 8:07 pm:
Oh geez. Of course you can.
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 8:33 pm:
Ok, perhaps I should put it this way, I don't think you should.
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By Rene on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 8:43 pm:
Well...I think you should. He knew the regulations. He knew he shouldn't have gotten involved from the beginning. He got involved in a fight that didn't concern them. His actions changed the balance of power in the region. His actions caused Voyager to have to leave before they could get the supplies they wanted. Punishement was warranted.
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By Dustin Westfall on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 11:30 pm:
I still disagree on the concept of "mitigating circumstances" in this case. If they had come to him without the initial battle, there would be some mitigating circumstances for the first part. However, once the deception was discovered, he knew what to do. He was trained for this. He has experience surviving capture by hostile forces. He has no excuse for defying regulations (as bad or worse than disobeying a direct order, depending on the circumstances).
Now, if Janeway decided to be lenient on punishment, that is one thing. She basically said he did something wrong and then walked away. At the VERY least, there should be a formal reprimand on his record. Instead, he got a mild tongue-lashing, countered with "It's what you'd do," and walked away from a major infraction with no consequences.
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, December 06, 2000 - 11:52 pm:
::He knew he shouldn't have gotten involved from the beginning:: Rene
At the beginning he was misled to believe their intentions were one thing and found that their intentions were another. Ever hear the saying "in for a penny, in for a pound?" I say again, he had no reason to not help them since he would clearly have been in prison and Voyager would have to get in a •••••• fight to rescue him. I swear, I can almost see how people would still gripe about Voyager if it really was what they say they want. If all Voyager did was try to get home and nothing else, the show would be so boring it's not even funny. And you're right, it's not very fitting for a person to be punished by a rule that the person doing the punishing would have done the same misdeed in their place.
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By Rene on Thursday, December 07, 2000 - 6:17 am:
And I swear, you seem to think Voyager can do no wrong!
And with that last statement you made, then Janeway is a hypocrite when she punished Paris, since she seems to violate the Prime Directive at the drop of a hat.
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By Anonymouse on Thursday, December 07, 2000 - 6:48 am:
PaulG: I believe it was established in "Caretaker" that Chatokay didn't like Paris because while Chakotay was a Maquis out of principle, Paris was more or less a mercenary, joining whichever group was willing to pick up his bar tab. And then, of course, he signed on with Janeway to track down the Maquis.
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By Jwb52z on Thursday, December 07, 2000 - 1:31 pm:
Rene, as far as violating the Prime Directive goes, in Voyager's situation that is what I call "Captain's prerogative."
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By Rene on Thursday, December 07, 2000 - 1:55 pm:
Isn't a Captain suppose to uphold the Prime Directive at the cost of his or her own life.
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By PaulG on Thursday, December 07, 2000 - 3:01 pm:
Anonymouse: I think it went deeper than that. There appeared to some particular event that brought Chakotay's ire and he was not the only one. IIRC, there was at least one Federation crewman who also despised him for the same reason. What I do remember is Paris whispering in Kim's ear and Kim saying something along the line "so that's why they don't like you". I think Paris' Maquis history would be well known so I do not understand the whisper. I think there is something more.
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By Jwb52z on Thursday, December 07, 2000 - 5:32 pm:
::Isn't a Captain suppose to uphold the Prime Directive at the cost of his or her own life.:: Rene
Yes, but that's not "real life." People wouldn't really do that I don't think.
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By PaulG on Thursday, December 07, 2000 - 6:31 pm:
Jwb52z: I agree that there are grounds for leniency in Kim's actions after he left Voyager. At the very least, Janeway holds some of the blame and, while it is not an excuse, fear of death has some weight. However, my main objection is to his actions beforehand in which he attacked a non-hostile ship and took sides in a war which he knew nothing about. Preventing such rash actions is one of the main purposes of the Prime Directive. It requires punishment.
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By constanze on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 8:38 am:
Did I misunderstand the Prime Directive? I thought it only applied to not-warp-capable species?
I think Kim missed a good opportunity to minimize his actions at the end: he called up the enemey ship to discuss the terms of surrender. I thought "good, he will give the enemy the ship with the technology, but let the scientists escape. Then both sides will have the cloaking techn., stalemate again." Instead, Kim even breaks his word after saying he surrenders he fires at the enemy ship. I thought oficers were never allowed to do this? I mean, tricking and ruses are allowed, but once you surrender, you aren't allowed to resist anymore? Or does Kim think these rules of war don't apply in the delta quad?
Jwb, you overlook one thing: migitating circumstances doesn't mean that breaking a rule is free from punishment. It means that these circumstances will be considered during trial, which is why two people breaking the same rule might both be punished, but with differing degrees, due to other circumstances. (E.g, one might get 30 days, the other 20 or 60 days.)
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By John-Boy on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 4:59 pm:
This is the 4th appearance of the Delta Flyer II
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By John-Boy on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 7:32 pm:
Impulse near the end
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By -= S u b z e r o =- on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:26 pm:
Clearly the series made a big impact on most, if not all of you, even with all the little mistakes (which can be found in any film/tv show), so heres a quick recall to reality. Does it anywhere state 'based on a true story'?? NO!! Its NOT real!! You should be congratulating the people who wrote, designed, imagined the entire 'Star Trek' universe. I for one think that the entire concept was/is amazing. You want real gripes... I mean look at teleporation, warp travel, cloaking... THESE CANNOT BE DONE!! (Yet), just my opinion.
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By ScottN on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:33 pm:
Subzero, you miss the point. Yes, there is the Star Trek Universe. And what we don't like is the fact that it is inconsistent with itself.
We are quite willing to suspend disbelief for transporters, warp drive, and cloaking, etc... But when it's inconsistent with itself, or uses plain old junk science or wrong science, that's what we complain about.
For example, in Night, they comment that they're 200000 km from the edge of the void. Nowhere do they say that it's surrounded by somekinda cloud so that no light can get in. Given that 200000 km is less than the distance from the Earth to the Moon, why can they not see the starfield until they pass that magical mark?
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By LUIGI NOVI on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 5:48 pm:
All the Trek series had moments where they stretched the reality of science. With Voyager, my main gripe is that it was inconsistently written with respect to more fundamental things, like characterization, plot, theme, and the series' overall premises.
"Voyager is undergoing a massive maintenance overhaul. Torres is swamped with work. So where are Kim and 7...?"
An excellent question Shane. Nobody on this crew knows how to delegate, yet they complain about having too much work to do. Speaking of work, was there any reason these repairs couldn't be done in space, and not in somebody's territory?
"There's never a good reason for war." TUE
I would say the events in WWII were a pretty good reason to go to war, from an American POV that is.
"humanitarian AIDE is not against the prime directive as long as it does not interfere with the development of the society as a whole." Jwb52z
That's true, but this ship was not carrying supplies for aide, even though that's what Kim was told at first. Harry first stepping in is understandable, but he violated the PD by finishing the mission.
"The Kraylor ship was a re-use of a Federation fighter." Corey
Although I think a couple things were added to make it look different, the Maquis also had ships like this, which were of course stolen from the Feds. The other alien ships were also reused from a few eps ago I think. 27 of 56 people survied the initial attack, but we only see 4 or 5 of them.
When the cloak failed and 'Nightingail' was attacked, the second time, the enemy ships stopped firing as they recloaked. The ship didn't go anywhere yet, keep shooting! This was also able to have shields while cloaked. Sounds like it might be a pretty nice piece of equipment for a ship always running into hostile aliens.
Spike tv got a still picture for 20 minutes! (Janeway and Chuckles argueing about something)
for this episode.
I switched channells and Archie Bunker was mad at Meathead for 45 minutes!(he was a still picture too)
..
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How many Delta Flyers did they rebuild?
PaulG: higher ranking officers are killed and wounded faster and need to be replaced... However, usually after the war is over and military downsizes, many of the quickly promoted officers are demoted again as the need for officers is reduced.
I don't know where you got this information but higher ranking officers are usually well behind the front lines and certainly aren't wounded faster. I'm fairly sure junior officers have a much lower mortality-rate than their enlisted counterparts as well. There are very few temporary promotions in the military compared to field promotions; so most of those occurring during a conflict will be able to keep that rank.
Anon: Maybe I missed something, but I wasn't sure why the Kraylor needed a commander from outside in the first place. The survivors seemed to have more than enough knowledge of their ship to run it and get themselves home, and they had no trouble working as a team when they turned against Harry.
I don't think you did miss anything because once we find out that the 'passengers' actually knew a thing or two about ship functions no reason was given that they genuinely needed Harry. The whole plot to this ep was contrived and quickly fell apart once that ship mutinied.
Rene: Then why weren't these special circumstances applied to Paris?
Jwb52z: Janeway specifically told Paris to not do what he did when he suggested it. Direct defiance is one of the differences.
That still doesn't explain how Tom, who was demoted for disobeying orders and violating probably several SF regulations, was able to regain his rank before Harry received a promotion even once. Hypocritical favoritism and inconsistent writing at its best.
Jwb52z: At the beginning he was misled to believe their intentions were one thing and found that their intentions were another... I say again, he had no reason to not help them since he would clearly have been in prison and Voyager would have to get in a fight to rescue him.
Ok, they were misled, but were these so-called humanitarian supplies actually looked at, or the stories of the 'passengers' cross-checked with each other or subtly inquired about to the other aliens? There's this thing, that may not be exciting but should be used more often in VGR, called diplomacy. Following through with a mission that violates the PD for "self preservation" is no reason to not be punished. There were several reasons to not help and it would be justified for Harry to become a prisoner; while it wouldn't be for Voyager to fight to rescue him.
Subzero: Does it anywhere state 'based on a true story'?? NO!! Its NOT real!! You should be congratulating the people who wrote, designed, imagined the entire 'Star Trek' universe.
Although this was nine years ago you're either new to Nitcentral or in the wrong place. Does a story have to be based on real events to be consistently written with logical character development and reliable continuity? Credit goes where it is due and technically almost every story written has been based on real life in some way, either directly or indirectly.