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By Richie Vest
The Nits: A wonderful episode i thought. Here my nits:
1. Should not the tricorder tell Icheb if it was or was not a parasite or not?
2. Seven can be acting chief engineer? She isn't even in Starfleet. Janeway must really hate Lt. Carey.
3. The first time the Doctor calls them to sickbay its "Lts. Torres and Paris." The second time it's "Lt. Torres, Lt. Paris."
Happy nitpicking!!
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By Steven Scott on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 11:46 am:

I'm fairly new to nit-picking, so bear with me. Something occurred to me during this episode that could be applicable to any Star Trek show. Remember when Chakotay holds Janeway hostage with the hypospray? The young security guard has a phaser and a dilemma ... or does he? I know if he did this, there would be no episode, but why not in a hostage situation stun both hostage-taker and hostage?

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By Rene on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 1:14 pm:

Wrong episode.

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By Spornan on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 1:23 pm:

It's under the wrong topic, but the answer is that the Security guard thought he couldn't risk Chakotay's reflex, thus killing the captain.

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By Rene on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 1:32 pm:

Exactly. Even if he stunned Janeway, by the time he tried to stun Chakotay, Chakotay might have already have had time to inject her with the "poison".

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By Adam Bomb on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 10:56 pm:

Shouldn't the prior posts be on the "Shattered" board? (BTW, "Shattered" is one of the best Stones songs, off the classic "Some Girls" album.)
I thought that B'Elanna had begun to make peace with her Klingon half in "Barge of the Dead." Yet here, she seems angry that her and Tom's baby will have Klingon features. The child is 1/4 Klingon, after all.
Is Roxann Dawson pregnant again? Will there be a return of the "hide the belly" jacket not seen since "Hope and Fear?" It looked like she was carrying auto tire pressure gauges in the pocket of that jacket. Maybe that is why the ship can't go at warp speed-Janeway can't find an air hose, or she won't pay 25 cents for five minutes. (I never have, either, in 28 years and five cars.)

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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 6:13 pm:

You know, I have never asked, but I don't think Dawson is pregnant again. Certainly, the pregnancy hasn't been incorporated into the plot because she's pregnant (like with Nana Visitor). The B'Elanna pregnancy is something that had been discussed last year.

In either case, there would be no real reason for her to wear the "hide the belly" jacket because they wouldn't be trying to hide it this time around.

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By Brian Lombard on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 7:47 am:

She's not. I read an interview with her at Section31.com, and she joked at the fact that three years ago they hid her real pregnancy, and now they're faking one for her. Pretty ironic.

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By Rene on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 2:01 pm:

Et tu Brutae?

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By The Real Rene on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 9:40 am:

Again...Use a different name/nickname to avoid confusion.

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By The Undesirable Element on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 4:42 pm:

Shut up Original Rene. Everyone knows who's who. The new Rene is a lot more polite and likable. It's easy to tell the difference.

New Rene has just as much right to the name as you do, anyway.

See ya later
TUE

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By Corey Hines on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 6:59 pm:

With this problem with Klingon female spines, what did they do before medical technology, hit them in the back really hard with a stick to straighten them out?

I thought Kim played an obe, not the sax

In "Equinox, Part II" I thought the doctor added security to his program to prevent tampering.

They were at impulse twice at the beginning and twice at the end. now that's confusing espically since there was no sub plot to make them slow down.

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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 7:00 pm:

Is there any indication that the "other" rene is not using the name simply to get on the "real" Rene's nerves? I would say that's not very polite.

Neither is telling someone to shutup, TUE.

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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 7:00 pm:

Oh, by the way...

Impulse at the beginning.

Sigh.

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By Lee Jamilkowski (Ljamilkowski) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 7:04 pm:

Great line by Icheb: "It may be a parasite."

ALso, I can't remember the last time, if at all, that B'elanna has smiled while working in Engineering. But she keeps up the fine tradition of a chief engineer being annoyed when people touch her "baby" without asking.

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By Jason on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 7:53 pm:

I enjoyed the parasite line... If you read Sev Trek, you will see that Tom Paris is known as Tom Parasite. Its probably just a coincidence.

On a side note, wouldn't eliminating lots of genetic material have really bad results? Unless they are getting extra genetic material from the Father. Especially in trek, where any genetic alterations result in instantaneous changes.

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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:02 pm:

B'ellana tells a nameless technician that if he keeps the Warp Field stable, they might get home a few years earlier. Why would he need to keep the warp field stable when they aren't going at Warp?

It just occured to me how odd it is that everyone always refers to Naomi as Naomi Wildman. It's a small ship, she's the only person under 10 years, who wouldn't know who Naomi is?

Oh man, Janeway pulled a Ninja trick on us! Chakotay makes his little radiation-glow joke, and Torres asks who told him. Then suddenly Janeway pops outta nowhere! Scary!

Janeway mentions that Seven would fill in for B'elanna if need be. Why? Isn't there a chain of command for Engineering? Isn't Seven a non-commissioned officer? I would think that one of those yellow shirts that works in Engineering would take over for her. Can you imagine how angry you'd be, slaving away in Engineering for six years, and when the time comes that you might get to act as Chief Engineer for a little while, some Ex-Borg civilian crewmember gets the job?

I'm pretty sure I read at w ww.skepdics.com that the idea of playing music to a prenatal child doesn't increase their mathematical potential. I could be wrong though. After all who knows what leaps and bounds that whole "Singing to your fetus" science will achieve by the 24th century?

What exactly happened to Tom's old quarters? Why does he have to crash at Harry's? I don't think there's that many people on Voyager that they can't all have their own quarters. I could be wrong though. (How many times have I said that recently?)

The Doc's program seemed pretty easy to fiddle around with. Either B'elanna hacked her way in through a ton of inadequate safeguards, or one high ranking officer can access the Doctor's program if they want. Either way, it's a bad thing.

Tuvok and Paris are strolling down the halls at a pretty leisurely pace considering B'elanna is gonna have the doctor alter his baby in mere moments.

OH MY GOD! THEY ARE GOING AT WARP TOWARDS THE END!

(I missed the very last 5 seconds of the episode. Where they at warp then, or did they just skip the outside shot?)

All in all, I really liked this episode. I think it was one of the best I've seen of Voyager. I just hope they don't completely forget about these problems by the next episode.

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By Mandy on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:03 pm:

Best line: "Perhaps she has a parisite." Well, yeah.

B'Elanna has an amazing memory. She can even remember scenes she wasn't in.

As for the Doctor's security protocols, I guess the chief engineer would be one of the ppl who could bypass them. And maybe Kim wanted to learn a new instrument?

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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:15 pm:

I just figured that you would need at least two senior officers to access such a vital program as the Chief Engineer. Seems like common sense to me.

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By Benjamin Daniel Cohen (Bcohen) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:24 pm:

This was a superb episode. The writers really outdid themselves. If the rest of the season is this good, then I'd say we have a lot to look forward to (my opinion, could be wrong).

I thought Kim played an oboe, not the sax

This is actually really good continuity. I remember Harry saying in "Ashes to Ashes" that he was learning the sax.

I suspect next weeks episode will generate controversy, dealing with the death penalty and all.

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By Shane Tourtellotte on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:25 pm:

First, to Corey Hines: It was a clarinet that Harry originally played, not an oboe. The writers dropped the change to a saxophone on us apropos of nothing in "Ashes to Ashes". (Remind me to tell you about the story I wrote to explain it some time.)

The Doctor says that Klingon traits remain dominant through several generations. Now, correct me if I'm wrong(and since I'm here, I'm sure you will), but in NextGen, wasn't K'eylehr(Worf's mate) supposed to have been the first human-Klingon hybrid? There wouldn't have been enough time to track 'several generations'.

Last episode, it was seven years Voyager has been in the Delta Quadrant(Chakotay said so). In this episode, Paris says it's six.

I thought Voyager was down to 140-some-odd crewmembers left, but Torres says 140 of them are human. Lemme see, Tuvok, Neelix, Seven, Icheb, Vorik, that one female Vulcan I saw a few episodes back, a couple of bald blue people, at least a few Bajorans ... are we below 140 yet?

The last I heard, eugenic modification was illegal in the Federation. That is what Torres is talking about, right, despite all her couching it in terms of the baby's health? Or does a Federation starship in the Delta Quadrant not count as Federation territory? (Fat chance.)

FYI, human quickening(the beginning of fetal motion) begins four to five months into a pregnancy. Having a 75% human fetus start kicking before two full months is pretty darned impressive, or as we nitpickers like to call it, impossible. ;-)

I wonder what Torres's punishment was for tampering with the Doctor's program in so blatant a manner? I'm sure Janeway will be quite harsh with her: I remember her saying six years ago that if Torres ever got out of line again, she'd no longer be an officer. Poor B'elanna. She's blown her career now.

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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:31 pm:

::In "Equinox, Part II" I thought the doctor added security to his program to prevent tampering.:: Corey Hines

B'Elanna can probably override the doctor's security codes since she's an engineer on the shipo.

:: On a side note, wouldn't eliminating lots of genetic material have really bad results? Unless they are getting extra genetic material from the Father. Especially in trek, where any genetic alterations result in instantaneous changes.:: Jason

Klingon physiology is unique which means that most likely, only redundant organs and other extra and non essential bits would be eliminated. BTW, when a baby is conceived, you don't get just one gene for everything. You get 2 or more. One dominant and one recessive and some that are complementary.
::I'm pretty sure I read at w ww.skepdics.com that the idea of playing music to a prenatal child doesn't increase their mathematical potential. I could be wrong though. After all who knows what leaps and bounds that whole "Singing to your fetus" science will achieve by the 24th century?:: Spornan

How do they know it does not? Has there been some kind of scientific study done?

::What exactly happened to Tom's old quarters? Why does he have to crash at Harry's? I don't think there's that many people on Voyager that they can't all have their own quarters. I could be wrong though. (How many times have I said that recently?):: Spornan

Would you really want to be alone without consolation after a fight with your spouse?

::The Doc's program seemed pretty easy to fiddle around with. Either B'elanna hacked her way in through a ton of inadequate safeguards, or one high ranking officer can access the Doctor's program if they want. Either way, it's a bad thing.:: Spornan

If anyone should, the senior staff should have access to his program.

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By PaulG on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:34 pm:

Very good episode. Brought a tear to my eye.

When the Doc is describing the possible complications of a Human/Klingon pregnancy, he lists "behavioral volatility" and "increased nutritional needs". How exactly is that different from the normal human pregnancy?

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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:40 pm:

Yes Jwb, the senior staff should have access to the doc's program. But not individually. The Doctor is pretty much recognized as a sentient entity, not to mention a vital part of the crew. To fiddle with his program shoudl require at least two Senior Staff members authorization. It's just basic common sense.

I gotta say though: This may be one of the best Voyager episodes I've seen in a long time. Certainly the best of this season.

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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:42 pm:

::The Doctor says that Klingon traits remain dominant through several generations. Now, correct me if I'm wrong(and since I'm here, I'm sure you will), but in NextGen, wasn't K'eylehr(Worf's mate) supposed to have been the first human-Klingon hybrid? There wouldn't have been enough time to track 'several generations'.:: Shane Tourtellotte

It's called scientific modeling and use of the ability to extrapolate on genetics. They can see how things change over time and see how long certain traits will last which is also what gave them the ability to see what B'Elanna's baby would look like.

::Last episode, it was seven years Voyager has been in the Delta Quadrant(Chakotay said so). In this episode, Paris says it's six.:: Shane Tourtellotte

He said something more like "you spend 6 years on a ship." I am sure he was just speaking metaphorically.

::The last I heard, eugenic modification was illegal in the Federation. That is what Torres is talking about, right, despite all her couching it in terms of the baby's health? Or does a Federation starship in the Delta Quadrant not count as Federation territory? (Fat chance.):: Shane Tourtellotte

The thing that is illegal is genetic modification to increase the child's mental capacity. Creation of beings like Kahn Nunien Singh is what created the need for that being illegal.

::I wonder what Torres's punishment was for tampering with the Doctor's program in so blatant a manner? I'm sure Janeway will be quite harsh with her: I remember her saying six years ago that if Torres ever got out of line again, she'd no longer be an officer. Poor B'elanna. She's blown her career now.:: Shane Tourtellotte

I'm sure you realize that it was more like a probationary thing than some longterm thing.

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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:45 pm:

What I want to know, from all of you, is what exactly made this episode so much better than all the others? I never disliked any of them.

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By Shane Tourtellotte on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:53 pm:

The thing that is illegal is genetic modification to increase the child's mental capacity. Creation of beings like Kahn Nunien Singh is what created the need for that being illegal.:: Jwb52z

If I recall correctly the DS9 episode where Dr. Bashir's eugenic background is revealed, it is stated that eugenics is illegal save for the correction of serious genetic defects. Forehead ridges are not in the same league as, say, cystic fibrosis.

Oh, and Khan's physical strength was augmented as well as his mental abilities, so by your theory, that should have been outlawed as well.

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By Rene on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:54 pm:

"The new Rene is a lot more polite and likable. It's easy to tell the difference. "

Interesting, considering that he hasn't posted very often. Three times at most.

Anyway...I enjoyed this episode too. Yikes...I'm getting scared. I didn't find anything wrong with this episode. They were even consistent with DS9 about Klingon/Human babies being extremely rare and difficult.

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By AI Fix on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:59 pm:

Wow, a single story (no A/B plot), no explosions, a wonderfully evocative score, some real character background and emotion from some of our main crew. This type of episode should have been done much earlier in the series, say about third season.

My only thought that took me out of the moment was, doesn't Janeway's hair look a lot like Jane Jetson's in this episode?

"Janeway, stop this crazy thing! Hellllp! Jaaaannewaaaayyy!!!!"

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By Spockania on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 9:19 pm:

Hmm. A good episode, I agree. The only thing I could think of isn't really a nit- B'Elanna mentions the trouble of having a child who looks different from Humans and neither she nor Tom think of talking to the Wildmans. But they were under alot of stress, and B'Elanna really had other motives, so it isn't a nit.

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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 9:45 pm:

::If I recall correctly the DS9 episode where Dr. Bashir's eugenic background is revealed, it is stated that eugenics is illegal save for the correction of serious genetic defects. Forehead ridges are not in the same league as, say, cystic fibrosis.:: Shane Tourtellotte

That's what I was trying to say.

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By D.W. March on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 11:15 pm:

There's a mysterious disappearing ensign in this episode. When Tom and Harry are chatting in the corridor by some big holodeck-type doors, you can see a woman in a blue uniform working on a panel. The shot changes, a redshirt walks by, it cuts back to the panel and the woman is gone. She could have finished her task and moved along but it still looked weird. OTOH, the redshirt didn't disappear when the camera angle changed, so somebody must have been paying attention. Nonetheless, it should have been the other way around... it's the redshirts that are supposed to disappear!

A hundred and forty HUMANS on Voyager? Perhaps the Federation isn't so diverse after all...

When Tom et al go to confront B'elanna at the end but find themselves in front of a locked door, nobody even mentions the possibility of beaming in or beaming her out.

Harry cuts off the power to the surgical bay but all the lights stay on.

Spornan: not to nitpick or anything (God forbid) but I don't think Seven is even an NCO. I think she's just a civilian. But you're absolutely right- if I was an engineer like Joe Carey and the captain relieved B'elanna and put Seven in charge, I'd be miffed too!

Couldn't forehead ridges be removed with cosmetic surgery? The Romulan disguised as Vulcan ambassador from Data's Day had her forehead ridges belt-sanded off and our old friends Gul Dukat and Seska had a lot of their hardware removed too. It seems easy enough to do and it's a lot healthier than cutting out swaths of genetic material!

Why is it that Harry has lumpy pillows? Is there some specific reason or did Tom just need something to gripe about? I mean, come on... it's the 24th century! Surely they know how to make a decent pillow by then!

Also, on the same note, I'm sure Tom's sleep would be a lot more comfortable if he didn't take all the cushions off the couch first!

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By Tricorder on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 11:18 pm:

To Shane Tourtellotte: I caught the TNG episode featuring K'eylehr the other night and watched it wondering how it might contradict with this one.

K'eylehr is not established as the first human-Klingon hybrid. Troi commented that she did not know of any, and K'eylehr's response indicated that such matings are rare, but apparently not unheard of. She also said her mother experienced complications during her pregnancy, but I don't get the impression that the writers brought up similar complications in B'Elanna's story. In short, it is possible that there have multiple generations are human-Klingon mixes.

Unfortunately, I missed tonight's episode, so I can't compare things further.

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By Strgzr 47 on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 11:34 pm:

The doctor never condoned genetic modification for cosmetic reasons only. Straightening the spine was required to prevent the baby from most likely being disabled, and he only consented to the other one after his altered programming told him that it also was required for the baby's health.

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By Keith Alan Morgan (Kmorgan) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 11:56 pm:

The Doctor says, "Klingon traits remain dominant for several generations, even with a single Klingon ancestor." Unless that ancestor is one of a kind, without parents, how do you have a single ancestor?

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By SLUGBUG on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 3:43 am:

Regarding Harry's Saxophone, as anyone who plays a woodwind instrument would know, the fingerings for the clarinets, saxophones, oboes and flutes are almost identical. There are minor differences for the Alto and baritone clarinets, and sax's, and also the oboe has a dual reed which gives it it's unique sound. Generally, if you can play one woodwind, you can play most others.

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By Brian Lombard on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 5:20 am:

Paris goes to Icheb because he knows the former Borg knows a thing or two about genetics. He does? Just a little while earlier, he thought the baby was a parasite.

In the DS9 episode "You Are Cordially Invited," it was established that the mistress of a Klingon house (in that instance, Martok's wife Serilla) MUST approve of all weddings. Having seen John Torres now, I find it very hard to believe that any Klingon would approve of that guy. Jadzia had to undergo a very aggravating ritual. Can't help but wonder if John had to do anything similar. I seriously doubt he'd pass it to a Klingon's satisfaction. And on a related topic, now that we've seen both of B'elanna's parents, I am having a very hard time seeing them together.

Paris seems to have forgotten that he already is a father. He and Janeway had a couple of salamanders back in "Threshold." (Ok, I know he's not a parent in the traditional sense, just wanted to mention that he has aleady fathered children.)

Tom and B'elanna just climb right into bed, talk a little, then roll over and go to sleep. No kiss goodnight?

Tom and B'elanna both seem shocked by the pregnancy. To quote Casidy Yates, "I guess someone forgot to take their injection last month."

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By Spornan on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 6:48 am:

Icheb is an expert in genetics, not human biology. That may have something to do with it.

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By Brian Lombard on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 7:10 am:

Yeah, but the guy was looking at a tricorder. Wouldn't someone capable of getting the warp field within a variance of .3 know how to use a tricorder? It's just totally implausible that he would think parasite over kid.

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By Biz on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 7:36 am:

1. ANTI-NIT: I don't think B'Elanna was striving for perfect accuracy with her "140 humans on board" comment, so I don't think we should take it as a nit. She's given to hyperbole when upset, and we were told she was emotionally volatile at this time. So no nit there, in my opinion. We all exaggerate in the middle of an argument.

2. Boy, the actor who plays Icheb must have one hell of an agent. All of his lines could have been delivered by Seven, and, for the second week in a row, he got more scenes than Neelix. Not that I'm complaining, but it was hardly necessary to write him into this episode.

3. Suppose Ensign Susie Single Girl gets space sick on the Delta Flyer. Does she want someone picking up a tricorder, scanning her, and announcing she's pregnant? Hell, no! In my opinion, Icheb had no business "scanning" B'Ellana. That should have been left to the Doctor. Moreover, when have we seen someone scanned with a non-medical tricorder?

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By Rene on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 7:48 am:

"In my opinion, Icheb had no business "scanning" B'Ellana."

And let's say that, instead of being pregnant, she really did have a parasite? Or maybe a very contagious virus.

"Moreover, when have we seen someone
scanned with a non-medical tricorder?"

In that TNG episode with that girl who didn't know she was a Q, Dr. Crusher had her test all the tricorders by scanning herself.

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By Charles Cabe (Ccabe) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:24 am:

Re: Not being able to see B'Elanna's parent's together.

Well, B'elanna's dad had the same problem. That's why he left.

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By Newt on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:33 am:

I have to agree with Biz, since all B'Elanna did was faint think that Icheb's whipping out of the tricorder and scanning her was a bit uncalled for and socially questionable.

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By Anonymous on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:46 am:

Here's a potential NIT: Back in "Eye of the Needle," B'Elanna said her father left when she was FIVE. (I went back and looked it up just to make sure). Didn't that little girl look and act awfully grown up for a five year-old? I pegged her at about eleven.

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By Lee Jamilkowski (Ljamilkowski) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 9:32 am:

Well, we all know by Alexander Rozhenko, Naomi Wildman and Molly O'Brien that kids in space, particularly ones of mixed heritage, develop at fast levels.

Maybe B'elanna spent a lot of her early childhood going into space with her parents. Or, at the least, it's a result of that Klingon DNA.

By Kyle Powderly on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 9:56 am:

There wouldn't have been enough time to track 'several generations'. - Shane Tourtellotte

Could this be a very subtle reference to Worf's reluctance in the DS9 ep "Trials and Tribble-ations" as to why Klingons in the time of Classic Trek didn't look the same as Klingon's a century later?

I don't see any problem with the question of Torres' tampering with the Doctor's program. As Chief Engineer, she's been the Doctor's "doctor" and would have, I imagine, unrestricted access to his code.

The Doctor says, "Klingon traits remain dominant for several generations, even with a single Klingon ancestor." Unless that ancestor is one of a kind, without parents, how do you have a single ancestor? - KAM

I'm guessing he meant full-blooded Klingon, not part-Klingon/part-other. It's a shame that as advanced as his program is, the Doctor is lacking in grammatical and communication skills. Oops. Shouldn't blame him, should blame writers who grew up in a school system that doesn't teach communication skills or writing clearly.

Regarding Harry's Saxophone, as anyone who plays a woodwind instrument would know, the fingerings for the clarinets, saxophones, oboes and flutes are almost identical...Generally, if you can play one woodwind, you can play most others.

'Scuse me? I played oboe for eight years, and it was a tough enough task learning to also play bassoon (don't ask - it was to impress a girl in band). Plaing different woodwind instruments is not a simple task. Flute and oboe are almost identical in fingering, but require a difference in the way you place your fingers. Clarinet, in addition to being very different in the way one place's their hands and fingers, has a very different fingering pattern for notes, as is the same with saxophone.

Now, sure, it's easier to move from clarinet to oboe or saxophone than it is to move from clarinet to french horn, but still, it isn't something one does lightly.

What I like is that Harry's learning of and playing the sax is not a plot-point, but a gloss to the story - it adds an element of depth to the character and the story in that the life of the character does not consist simply of the things which further the storyline.

On the UPN affiliate where I live, they air a syndicated episode of Voyager at 10:00 weeknights, and last night they aired the episode where B'Elanna's clinical depression comes to a head while constructing the Delta Flyer. It made me think that perhaps last night's season seven ep was an attempt to be more realistic with the character of B'Elanna Torres - that the psychological elements of her life and personality that triggered the depression, that caused her such difficulty while on the Barge of the Dead, are not things that are dismissed at the end of an hour, but, as with we real people, will continue to protrude in a most inopportune manner from time to time throughout the rest of our lives.

I also appreciate that here, finally, Star Trek is tackling the issues of real love and not just falling in love. The only other married couple in Star Trek's history was Worf and Dax, and theirs was not a realistic portrayal, IMHO. Torres and Parris were given a chance to really hash out what it means to love someone and to be with them and work through the difficulties - and the writers allowed that the characters did not know exactly what to do and say but misspoke and misunderstood each other and made mistakes...but they worked through it! Being that I am exploring that whole part of my relationship with my fiancee right now, I appreciate a more realistic portrayal on the show as well.

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By Rene on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 10:04 am:

"The only other married couple in Star Trek's history was
Worf and Dax, and theirs was not a realistic portrayal, IMHO. Torres and Parris
were given a chance to really hash out what it means to love someone and to be
with them and work through the difficulties."

Are you saying Worf and Dax never had any arguments? Did you not see their wedding episode. And about what it "really means to love someone", did you not see "Change Of Heart"?

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By Len on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 10:07 am:

Actually..I think they mentioned she was 11 or 12. Perhaps it's such a traumatic experience for her, that she can't remember it accurately? Or perhaps he left when she was 5, but returned eventually, only to leave for good after the camping trip?

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By Anonymous on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 10:22 am:

Len -- If the second scenario is true, I don't see why or how B'Elanna would describe herself as abandoned at age 5.

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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 11:19 am:

Actually, there *is* a reason why Kim's instrument of choice changed to the saxophone.

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By Rene on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 12:07 pm:

Care to elaborate on that.

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By The Undesirable Element on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 2:10 pm:

GREAT GREAT EPISODE!

All good nits taken already but I have an ANTI-NIT.

Okay, Seven is the most intelligent human on the ship. (Kim said this to Seven in some episode. I forget which.) Now, the way I see it, Engineering is a VERY vital place. If I had my choice between Vorik (kind of dumb for a Vulcan), Carey (He's probably a lousy engineer if he's never around) or Seven of Nine (who's has the collective knowledge of all kinds of engineering) I think I'd choose Seven.

But that's just me.

That's all I got for today.
See ya later
TUE

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By Jason on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 3:06 pm:

Just picking nits...

"The only other married couple in Star Trek's history was Worf and Dax, and theirs was not a realistic portrayal, IMHO."
What about Miles and Kako O'Brian?

I don't know about woodwinds, but on brass instruments, the fingering are similar (unless you are playing a trombone), but the way you need to vibrate your lips is completely different. The muscles that you use to play a trumpet are completely different then the ones you use to play a tuba.

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By Spornan on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 3:48 pm:

Isn't Spock technically married? And Tuvok? I know they aren't "couples" onscreen, but they are married at least. So was Janeway, wasn't she?

So far I can count three main married couples ever featured in Star Trek. Miles and Keiko, Worf and Dax, and Tom and B'elanna.

IMO, Worf and Dax don't count though. :p

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By Spornan on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 3:50 pm:

::The first time the Doctor calls them to sickbay its "Lts. Torres and Paris." The second time it's "Lt. Torres, Lt. Paris." ::

That's not really a nit, it's just a way someone speaks. Just because the Doctor is a computer program doesn't mean he can't use a different phrase.

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By Newt on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 4:01 pm:

In fact, having the Doctor say thing different would make him seem more human since it would give a feeling of random thought to his speech.

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By Anonymous on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 5:43 pm:

I'm pretty sure that we can blame the pregnancy on those holographic condoms the Doc was handing out.

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By S. Donaldson on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 6:36 pm:

>

Not getting along with your wife is no reason to dump your child.

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By Adam Bomb on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 6:57 pm:

But a lot of guys do it. My wife is going through clinical depression now (she tried to O.D. on Klonipin the other day.) She refuses to talk to me about it. I am standing by her, despite advice otherwise. We have an 11 year old son, and I never would desert him.
One of the best moments in Trek was when B'Elanna asked the Doctor to be the baby's godfather. It just about brought tears to my eyes.

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By Rene on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:00 pm:

"So far I can count three main married couples ever featured in Star Trek. Miles and Keiko, Worf and Dax, and Tom and B'elanna.

IMO, Worf and Dax don't count though. :p "

Um...let's see a wedding, they were married for a season....That makes them...oh...let me think, what is the term for it.....

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By Benjamin Daniel Cohen (Bcohen) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:01 pm:

One of the best moments in Trek was when B'Elanna asked the Doctor to be the baby's godfather. It just about brought tears to my eyes.

I felt the same way. I don't know what it was about that scene, but it was really moving.

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By S. Donaldson on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:17 pm:

I don't know your situation but it sounds like you are doing the right thing.

In this episode (and in real life many times) everyone is treating "godfather" as an honorary and meaningless title. For those of you who don't know, a godfather and godmother are appointed by the parents at the time of a baby's christening. The godparent's duty is to help with the child's Catholic upbringing. I understand that BTL was trying to make up for what she did to him, but based on "Wink of an Eye" and "Spririt Folk" I would not want the Doctor in that position for my child. Defending the appointment by saying none of them are Catholic only strengthens my point.

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By TomM on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:31 pm:

Moreover, when have we seen someone scanned with a non-medical tricorder? Biz

Maybe this, along with his apparent lack of experience with pregnant women, is why Icheb thought it might be a parasite.

Actually..I think they mentioned she was 11 or 12. Perhaps it's such a traumatic experience for her, that she can't remember it accurately? Or perhaps he left when she was 5, but returned eventually, only to leave for good after the camping trip? Len

She mentioned in this episode that the family had been distant for years, and that the camping trip was her father's way of trying to "get to know" her again. Maybe her father left the family when she was five and over the years the visitations with Belanna were getting rarer. Then when she told him to just leave, he stupidly took her at her word. (Obligation had replaced love as the reason he was still trying, so he welcomed the excuse.)

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By InSoc2000 on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 9:29 pm:

I'd just like to fan the flames of the woodwind instrument complaints... it's not difficult at all to switch between sax, clarinet, oboe and flute. I play them all. There are differences between each instrument, but, for the most part, going between the instruments is mostly intuitive.

On a side note, it appears that Harry is playing a Super Action 80 Series II sax (how can I tell? Look on the neck. See that blue paint? I've never seen a sax older than 15 or so years old with that paint still intact. My Series II is about 4 years old and it's missing pieces of paint. Selmer's been making the Series II since 1986.) Why would he be doing this? He should be playing a Selmer Mark VI, considered the best sax ever made. Maybe it's a future model that Selmer just hasn't made yet? :-)

On a further side note, Harry's actually taking a step down in the difficulty level by switching to the sax. It's considerably easier to play, IMHO. And shows much better taste to boot. :-)

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By Jackknight on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 11:09 pm:

IIRC, Janeway doesn't specifically say Seven will take over BLT's duties; she says something like, "If you need time off, I'm sure Seven--" and then B'Elanna cuts her off. Maybe Janeway was going to say, "--will be able to find someone to take your place"! Or "--wouldn't mind giving up her Holodeck time". Or "--should be my Chief Engineer, since she works harder!"
B'Elanna's father mentions that Dean, the worm kid, is something like 11 or 12 when he says he's just doing what kids his age do. Presumably, Dean's at the same level as B'Elanna, since she includes him in her list of kids at school who make fun of her.
I would've liked it better if B'Elanna's argument for DNA alteration were stronger; but I have to concede that the ep wasn't a typical high-concept morality tale--it was intended as more of a character piece, in which case it might actually have strengthened the episode to have B'Elanna argue so poorly.

::The doctor never condoned genetic modification for cosmetic reasons only. Straightening the spine was required to prevent the baby from most likely being disabled, and he only consented to the other one after his altered programming told him that it also was required for the baby's health. :: -Strgzr 47
I think the point was that before B'Elanna modified his program, his main argument against genetic alteration was that it was unnecessary. He should have refused from the get-go on the grounds that such alteration--"except to correct serious genetic defects"--was illegal. The spine falls into that category, but not, for example, the extra lung.

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By TomM on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 12:36 am:

I think the point was that before B'Elanna modified his program, his main argument against genetic alteration was that it was unnecessary. He should have refused from the get-go on the grounds that such alteration--"except to correct serious genetic defects"--was illegal. Jackknight

We have seen the doctor resolve ethical problems. When legality and the patient's welfare are in conflict, the welfare of the patient comes first. For him, the fact that the procedure was unnecessary, and potentially dangerous were argument enough. That it was also illegal was not a factor in his decision.

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By KAM on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 12:51 am:

Brian Lombard, about Icheb thinking the baby was a parasite. Well, here we have a lifeform that 'feeds' off of a woman & after birth is dependent upon two people for at least 18 years. Sounds like a parasite to me. ;-)

S. Donaldson, Catholics aren't the only religion to have godparents. Also my mom once explained that godparents are there to raise the kid should something happen to the parents. Although, for the most part, the godparenting thing has become just a symbolic way to honor someone.

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By Dale on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 6:55 am:

I tend to agree that scanning should be left to doctors. Imagine if B'Elanna fainted, was casually scanned by Icheb, who then announced in his matter-of-fact way: "It appears you have late-stage terminal breast cancer."

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By Spornan on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 10:48 am:

If someone faints/collapses right next to you, you are going to do whatever you can in the heat of the moment to help them. If that means scanning them quickly to shed some light on why they fainted, I don't see anything wrong with that.

It's no different then a layman putting his ear to a collapsed persons chest to see if they are breathing.

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By Dale on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 10:53 am:

Scanning, fine. Blurting out diagnosis, not fine.

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By Rene on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 1:01 pm:

I agree with Spornan. I see no problem with what Icheb did.

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By The Undesirable Element on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 6:48 pm:

Just thought I'd mention this...

B'Ellana has yet another item of sleepwear. Each time she appears to go for less. The original was a long-sleeved/long-pants set of pajamas. Then came the sleeveless dark blue thing that she wore in "Drone". Now she's going for the tight red sleeveless tank top with the very short pants. Perhaps the replicator rations really are getting low. Maybe they need to conserve material. :^)

Not that I'm complaining mind you. If I had to choose which engineer I wanted to see in revealing sleepwear, it would be Torres.

That's all I got for now.

See ya later
TUE

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By The Undesirable Element on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 6:50 pm:

One more thing...

Why are Tom and B'Ellana still using separate last names?

Ok. That's really all I have for now.

See ya later
TUE

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By Adam Bomb on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 7:25 pm:

Why are James Carville and Mary Matalin still using those names? Probably for the same reasons that Tom and B'Elanna are. (Will Carville and Matalin's marriage survive through Dubya's administration? Why has it lasted this long? Those are probably questions for the "Political Musings" board.)

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By Jwb52z on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 10:24 pm:

TUE, it is not an "across the board" practice anymore for women to change their names to that of their husbands' names.

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By The Undesirable Element on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 1:24 pm:

I'm just asking because they discussed it in "Drive".

TUE

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By Adam Bomb on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 7:07 pm:

I think when they discussed it in "Drive" they were joking around, maybe even getting a bit tipsy on the champagne. (Was that synthetic champagne, or would the real stuff be stored away for special occasions like weddings?) Personally, I don't think she should change her name. Doesn't changing a woman's surname harken back to ancient times, when women were viewed as little more than property? This is "Star Trek," set in an advanced society with forward thinking. (Although in "All Good Things," Beverly Crusher had married and divorced Picard, but kept the name. Jadzia Dax was still that, however, not Roszchenko , Mogh or Martok after marrying Worf.)

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By Rene on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 7:54 pm:

"Doesn't changing a woman's surname harken back to ancient times, when women were viewed as little more than property?"

Oye! I am getting as headache.

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By Rene on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 7:56 pm:

"Jadzia Dax was still that, however, not Roszchenko , Mogh or Martok after marrying Worf"

Klingons don't have last names....and Trills always change their last names to that of their symbiot. That doesn't count...(Gee....Trills having to change their names! NOOOOOOOO! The symbiots should be ashamed of themselves).

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By PaulG on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 9:33 pm:

Wasn't it "Keiko O'Brien?" I guess it depends on the preferences of the married couple.

Icheb's scanning does not bother me. If Torres has some sort of serious contagious medical problem, it is imperative that it be diagnosed and dealt with ASAP. With the crew stuck out in the Delta Quad on a small ship, this is even more urgent. Privacy is a luxury.

However, Seven could have used more tact. Torres' pregnancy is not an emergency so that announcement could have waited until they reached sick bay. Probably the writers thought the scene would work better this way.

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By Jason on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 9:53 pm:

The real reason why they had Seven announce it: Its more dramatic that way.

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By The Undesirable Element on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 11:24 am:

It's also one out of the only two scenes involving Seven of Nine. Sure Doc could have done it but wise UPN logic says that ratings increase when Seven says something...

That's all the UPN bashing from me today.

See ya later
TUE

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By Shane Tourtellotte on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 7:42 pm:

"Actually, there *is* a reason why Kim's instrument of choice changed to the saxophone." -- Wannabe Trek Writer

And you're not going to tell? Or was it something I missed in one of the episodes? Or was it a behind-the-scenes reason?

Yes, I'm only one person, but I'm interested.

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By MarkN on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 1:46 am:

I missed this ep. *sniff*

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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 8:05 am:

Shane-

It's a behind-the-scenes reason that popped up during the filming for "Celebrity." It wouldn't be fair (or smart) for me to discuss it at this time since the parties involved aren't present (and I was only witness to one side of the conversations). Just as you probably think it isn't fair for me to supply you with a tantalising clue without ever giving you the payoff.

But it is an amusing story I'll share... someday. ;)

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By Spornan on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 9:19 am:

Oh yeah, I know what he's talking about. Wish I could tell you, but that wouldn't be fair.

:p

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By Jason on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 10:23 am:

Curse you and your morals! Why can't you be more like the rest of the heartless Hollywood Types???


Just Kidding.

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By Will Spencer on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 10:31 am:

How convenient that Seven and Wesley Crusher, uh, I mean, Icheb, had a medical tricorder with them in Engineering.
A good, character-driven story, but a little confusing regarding B'Lanna's fears of her child being 'different'. On a ship filled with different looking people from different planets, her fears are unwarranted. And by some strange chance that her daughter is an adult when they make it back to Earth, what will they find? Hundreds of alien species, living together, probably in peace, in the Federation, filled with more hybrids than you can shake a Vulcan harp at. What's the big deal? Sure, her little friends were mean, but hasn't B'Lanna realized by now that that's childhood for virtually every single kid? I looked alot like the rest of the kids in school, but still got picked on, with and without glasses on. Her daughter's ridges wouldn't be a big thing at all if she combed her bangs down on them. She shouldn't be worried about 24th century attitudes, which are supposedly ahead of our own.

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By Matt Pesti on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 12:05 pm:

Changeing names may only be a human thing, which explains Dax and Worf. It's also serves to show familiar connections, as well as making it easier for the children, as the hyphenated names have gone out of style, thank God. From what I understand, women do keep their maiden names, but are not used in common use, just as Catholics don't use their Confirmation names, or Hispanics use their mother's name in the US. I

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By PaulG on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 1:01 pm:

::::The Doctor says that Klingon traits remain dominant through several generations.... :: Shane Tourtellotte

::It's called scientific modeling and use of the ability to extrapolate on genetics. They can see how things change over time and see how long certain traits will last which is also what gave them the ability to see what B'Elanna's baby would look like. :: Jwb52z

Scientific modeling that is not based on actual observation and/or experimentation can be of dubious reliability. Even with plentiful data and studies, complex models can be notoriously inaccurate (for example, weather forcasting). If indeed Shane is right in his assumption that there have been very few Klingon hybrids over a short period of time, it would be difficult to produce the type of modeling you describe.

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By Jwb52z on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 2:45 pm:

PaulG, not necessarily. If they have the level of genetic expertise that they seem to have, it is not impossible that they have overcome the problem that you mention. There could be, at some point, a time where we can make generalizations that are more accurate about science. 400 years is a long time to study genetics. Things like hybrids would probably be of great interest and study once non human life is found.

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By PaulG on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 4:06 pm:

Jwb52z: It is certainly likely that genetics has advanced a great deal. However, unless they have mastered genetics (which is unlikely since there are still uncured genetic diseases that can go undetected for decades), extrapolating the genetic interactions of Human/Klingon hybrids without a good number of study subjects is questionable. It borderlines on educated guessing. If Shane's assumption is correct and only the second generation of Human/Klingon hybrids is now coming to maturity, I would be hard pressed to trust computer models on the subject that forcast several generations into the future.

Of course, these hybrids may be in much larger quantity and have a much longer history than assumed. That would make the Doc's assertions and Torres' holodeck tinkering make sense. It is also possible that Klingon hybrids are similar to hybrids with other species so they can reasonably use the research from Vulcans or whatever to predict Klingon interactions. However, without this further information, I do not think that the computer modeling explanation works. Computer modeling without good verifiable data is more like computer games than science.

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By Renee on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 6:56 pm:

I just remembered why I like reading this board. Nowhere else can you find such an interesting debate about woodwind intstruments.

Oh yea, I'm an alternate Renee - Transporter accident.

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By Rene on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 11:16 am:

A) 1st Rene - you seem to have a lot of anger built up inside when it comes to others with your name... Gee, hope that doesn't span over several generations. What are you, a Klingon?

B)Spornan said::"The first time the Doctor calls them to sickbay its "Lts. Torres and Paris." The second time it's "Lt. Torres, Lt. Paris." ::
That's not really a nit, it's just a way someone speaks. Just because the Doctor is a computer program doesn't mean he can't use a different phrase."

Actually why did the Doctor call out "Torres & Paris"... Aren't they married? Wouldn't it be correct to say "Lts. Tom and B'Elanna Paris"?

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By Rene on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 11:21 am:

Sorry.. Posted the B) item before reading the other posts..

My A) comment still stands, tho. I Think I'll just call him Klank or something...

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By Rene...The Real Rene on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 12:13 pm:

Don't you have any intelligence to realize we can't both use the same name? How would others be able to tell which post belongs to which Rene? That is why I am asking you to stop it. I am starting to think you are doing this on purpose to get on my nerves.

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By Adam Bomb on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 4:58 pm:

If you come into this episode during the last third, like I did, it originally appears as though B'Elanna is ordering the Doc to give her an abortion as she lies on the table. (For the record, Worf also suggests an abortion for the pregnant Troi in the Next Gen ep "The Child," something self-appointed media watchdog Rev. Donald Wildmon and his American Family Association were unaware of at the time of Next Gen's first run.)

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By Anonymous on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:07 am:

Rene and Rene; The second Rene should use the first initial of his/her last name (i.e. Rene D) or at least Rene II. An extra keystroke or two won't kill you, and Rene I will be a nicer to everyone. Maybe

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By Rene XIV.5 on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 5:05 pm:

Overall, a great episode! Amusing that they hired the former exec. producer of "Melrose Place" to write a romance episode for them. (James Khan).

B'Elanna's baby holo-image wasn't very impressive. You'd think that CGI imaging would be a little better looking than THAT by the 24th century.

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By Rene on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 9:42 pm:

I agree! A great episode. In fact, this episode was so great that it made me realize what a jerk I've been all along. To think others would actually be interested in my close-minded dribble. Boy, do I feel sheepish now. Let me just say that I LOVE STAR TREK as evidenced by the fact that I faithfully watch it every week and can't wait to share my brilliant insights with others.

By Steve Oostrom on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:36 pm:

An interesting episode. It was slow and a little boring in the first half but made up for it in the second half. It's too bad my feeble hearing could not pick up what Torres' father was saying to the uncle while Torres was in the tent. The cut to the final flashback sequence was far too fast and I missed what was said.

As for Icheb and the engineering tricorder instead of a medical one... maybe that's why he thought Torres had a parasite.

The doctor mentioned something about the difficulties in the compatibility of Klingon and human genes, explaining why hybrids were so rare. Logically, of course, the genetic compatibility of Klingons and humans would be zero, but then it wouldn't be "Star Trek" without the hybrids, would it?

Voyager seen at warp twice late in the episode! I guess they had no window shots at that time.

As for not beaming Torres out of sickbay instead of breaking into sickbay, perhaps that forcefield erected around the surgical bay might have had something to do with it. Then again, Tuvok's little device made short work of the door anyway.

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By The Real Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 6:11 am:

I knew the second Rene's intent was to impersonate me. The coward!!!!

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By Ryan Smith on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 9:00 am:

Err, why would the genetic compabality of human and Klingon genes be zero? I'm no rocket scientist, but if the two races came from the same common ancestry (TNG "The Chase") they should be somewhat compatible, yes?

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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 9:27 am:

Because "The Chase" was an episode that should never have happened.

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By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:23 am:

Ryan and Rene, genetic comapibility doesn't necessarily mean mating compabibility. Common ancestry doesn't mean that mating is automaticallhy possible. Evolution and environment are big factors in that happening.

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By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:24 am:

That should say "automatically."

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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:22 pm:

If you believe in evolution of course.

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By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:43 pm:

Yes, of course, but in the Trek world, evolution actually happened as we have seen from the seeding of the planets in "The Chase."

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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:47 pm:

Or maybe it was the female changeling trying to spread these lies to make conquering the Alpha Quadrant easier ;)

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By Steve Oostrom on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 9:51 pm:

As for mating between Klingons and humans being possible because they were seeded by that ancient race, despite this, the two lines have evolved separately for billions of years, which would surely introduce significant genetic drift. If despite this drift, Klingons and humans can still interbreed, then why not humans and species much closer to them, like, say, chimpanzees. Anybody wonder what would happen if they were to try that?
I doubt it is possible, despite something like 98% genetic compatibility. Humans and Klingons, in my mind anyway, have 0% genetic compatibility and cannot interbreed.

Oh, and one more nit. Why did Kim have to get up and walk to the door and hit a button to open it for Paris? Isn't usually calling out "come!" enough for the computer to open the door for you, or perhaps a voice-printed authorization like "computer, unlock the door and let him in!"

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By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:19 pm:

Steve Oostrom, humans and apes, generic name for nonhuman primates, can't mate because of differences in chromosomal number and type. Humans and Klingons obviously have the same chromosome count, or B'Elanna wouldn't have been able to get preggers in the first place by Tom.

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By KAM on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 3:35 am:

Various members of the Horse family can produce offspring, but the offspring are sterile. So not only do Humans & Klingons (& Vulcans, Romulans, Betazoids, etc., etc.) have the same chromosone count, they somehow evolved to be so similar that they don't even have problems with sterility. Unlike Horses which had the disadvantage of being part of the same Genus.

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By Jwb52z on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 1:04 pm:

KAM, it would stand to reason that it is possible for two species that were seeded to begin by the same race would be like each other if they started from the same genetic material.

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By TomM on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 3:09 pm:

No it doesn't. If that were so, then since they were also ultimately derived from the same genetic seeding, and in fact have a common mammalian ancestor here on Earth, that cats and dogs should be able to mate with one another and have fertile offspring. There are too many generations, and too many different environmental differences.

It is especially so if the basic humanoid shape is a product of convergent evolution: Although through their living in the sea, evolution has re-shaped the cetaceans until they look rather like fishes, they remain a totally different creature, more closely related to dogs than to dogfish.

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By Jwb52z on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 4:09 pm:

TomM, so you're saying that it is not at all possible?

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By TomM on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 7:09 pm:

Not without the kind of genetic manipulation that is supposed to be illegal in the Federation.

-----

On the other hand, there are a lot of "advanced" races (Arretians, Organians, Metrons, Q, not to mention the Preservers) who might have had an interest in manipulating the genes of so many planets, that it may be possible.

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By Steve Oostrom on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 9:05 pm:

It takes much more than the same chromosome count for two different species to interbreed. The genes have to line up too. What are the odds that the genes that code for various physical features in humans and Klingons line up precisely? What about features that Klingons have and humans do not, and vice versa (forehead ridges, that third lung, even the curving spine that was mentioned). One parent would supply the gene for a feature found in his race, and the other parent would have no corresponding gene. How is that supposed to lead to a viable lifeform? I don't think it can. The only way to create a hybrid would be to do it in a lab, and in so doing, you are not creating a human-Klingon hybrid, but a whole new form of life (and this would require very advanced knowledge of genetics and genetic manipulation, something likely illegal in the Federation). This hybrid would be genetically compatible with neither humans nor Klingons. Hybrids surely aren't going to come around the "old fashioned way," like Paris and Torres did it.

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By Jwb52z on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 12:18 pm:

What do you mean "line up?"

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By Jwb52z on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 12:20 pm:

Steve, you don't have to always have 2 genes for something for a person to have it. As long as one parent has it there is a chance a baby can. I really have a hard time believing that interspecial sexual relations would be that difficult to procreate in.

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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 1:20 pm:

OK... I think we need to make a distinction, folks, between the real world and the Trek universe.

There are *lots* of things in that Trek universe (as in any sci-fi universe) that defy the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, genetics, etc. as we understand them today.

Yes, in my limited understanding of biology and genetics, the kinds of alien/human hybrids we frequently see (beginning with Spock) in the Trek universe, would not be possible in our real world.

But we're not dealing with the real world. This is the Trek world. And the in the Trek world these things *are* possible, and we have to accept them as possible in the Trek universe. Perhaps there was (as TomM suggested) some kind of genetic tampering by other, more "advanced" races. Perhaps there *is* something in the genetic makeup from the original seeders of the galaxy that allows this kind of thing to happen. Or perhaps our 20th-century understanding of genetics and biology isn't sophistcated enough to understand it all.

So onto more important questions... Like why do we almost always see alien/human hybrids, but *very* few alien/alien hybrids?

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By Adam Bomb on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 1:34 pm:

Look at the diseases that are passed because just one partner carries the gene-hemophilia, for one. (Why does hemophilia only affect boys? Isn't the gene passed down from the mother?)
Tom Paris has really matured since "Caretaker." He has learned to accept responsibility not just for himself, but for a wife and baby as well. Nothing like fatherhood to act as a wake-up call.
Should we start a board for names for Tom and B'Elanna's daughter? I would name her Katherine Elizabeth Torres-Paris.

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By Jwb52z on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 2:10 pm:

Adam Bomb, lots of diseases and traits only come from the mother because there's only one type of chromosome the mother can give, that being the X. BTW, the condition can occurr both in women and men, but women are usually just carriers.

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By Adam Bomb on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 2:56 pm:

Thanks. I barely passed my basic biology in high school, and never took any more bio courses as a result.
When they vote for the best ep, "Lineage" will be way up there for me.

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By SLUGBUG on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 4:19 pm:

So onto more important questions... Like why do we almost always see alien/human hybrids, but *very* few alien/alien hybrids?
WTW I can only think of 2 offhand, Saavik(Vulcan/Romulan) and Dukat's daughter(Cardassian\Bajoran).

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By PaulG on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 7:04 pm:

Probably the main reason that Humans have such a high percentage of the *visible* hybrids is that Humans have the largest population in the Federation and Star Trek focuses heavily on the Federation. In addition, the Humans of Star Trek are more tolerant and diverse compared to other races so they would be more likely to engage in these sort of relationships. In comparison, Romulans and (to a lesser extent) Cardassians are too xenophobic, the Klingons too partisan (the "Us vs. Them" mentality), the Ferengi too sexist and so forth. Then again, it would be interesting to do a survey of the hybrids of Star Trek to see if the majority actually are part Human or does it just seem that way.

Hemophilia is carried on the sex X chromosome. For a person to have hemophilia, all their sex X chromosomes must have the hemophilia gene. Men only have one sex X chromosome (and the other is a Y) and women have two. Since the gene is uncommon, it is MUCH easier for a male to have one hemophilia gene than for a woman to have two hemophilia genes. Women do get the disease but men make up the vast majority.

The problem with hybrids is that the genetic material from the two parents has to be compatible enough to produce a lifeform that can survive. On Earth this is difficult with creatures not in the same genus and most of these creatures are sterile. When you are talking about creatures from different planets, even if the creatures look the same, they may be from totally different KINGDOMS (or even totally different classifications that have yet to be invented). Of course, our understanding of Earth hybrids may not apply to alien hybrids.

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By Jwb52z on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 7:17 pm:

::Saavik(Vulcan/Romulan):: SLUGBUG

Vulcan and Romulan are not technically two different species. Their differences are minor.

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By Steve Oostrom on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 9:32 pm:

To Wannabe Trek Writer, I know that "Star Trek" is all imagination and invented science, but there is just something about interspecies breeding that gets to me. You can disguise faster-than-light travel and the rest in technobabble and fancy particle names and complicated machinery, but there is no attempt to even hide interspecies breeding in a similar fashion. Two people of different species have sex, and a baby results. This occurs even if neither party wants to have that baby. Afterall, I'm pretty sure that Dukat did not want to father a half-Cardassian, half-Bajoran daughter. He would have done nothing to bring that about.

For Jwb52z, for a Klingon and a human to produce a baby, the number of chromosomes must match. The genes on each chromosome must line up. Each feature coded by a gene or a series of genes (often a single feature is controlled by more than one gene) must use the same number of genes in the same location in the chromosomes. Otherwise, you would end up with too many orphaned genes and you would get a mish-mash of features and no determination of which is dominant. It is also quite possible that the amino acids used in the composition of the DNA are different in Klingons and humans. It just defies my imagination that straight sex between people of different species would produce a living, fertile offspring melding the features of those two races. I think it is orders of magnitude more probable that warp drive will one day be invented than simple interspecies sex will lead to viable babies.

That's just my opinion, of course.

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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 11:39 am:

Slugbug-

Is Saavik's hybrid status canon (as it was never stated in the film)? Don't have an encyclopedia to find out.

And there was also that Klingon/Romulan hybrid on the planet with Worf's dad in TNG.

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By Jwb52z on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 12:07 pm:

WTW, it was supposed to be a scene that was taken out of the released version of the ST:III movie. Therefore, it is not canon that she is not fully Vulcan.

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By SLUGBUG on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 1:58 pm:

Is Saavik's hybrid status canon (as it was never stated in the film)? Don't have an encyclopedia to find out. WTW
Therefore, it is not canon that she is not fully Vulcan Jwb52z Though it is not stated on film, her overt emotionalism (mild curse during Kobyashi Maru, and tears at Spock's funeral) supports a mixed heritage theory. Also, all the novels, non-canon I know, mention her Romulan parentage. I no longer have the Trek Enyclopedia to check her 'official' status.

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By Adam Bomb on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 3:02 pm:

Wasn't K'Elehyr (did I spell it right?) also half human/half Klingon?

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By Sheila on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 8:47 pm:

Worf and Dax were planning to use genetic re-sequencing to have a Klingon/Trill baby. Other Star Trek married couples: Sisko and Kassidy; Rom and Leeta. I wonder what a Rom-Leeta offspring would look like.

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By Jwb52z on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 9:19 pm:

It wasn't genetic resequencing in the case Worf and Dax. Jadzia's egg needed to have a slight change in it so Worf's sperm could fertilize it.

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By PaulG on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 9:06 pm:

Just as a note, there was a story on ABC World News Tonight about toys that are supposed to help children learn. Among other things, they mentioned that despite some toy makers' claims to the contrary, there is no scientific evidence that listening to classical music improves infant intelligence.

I also found another article from CNN that discusses the classical music effect. Of interest to this episode, apparently there are no studies on infants. The claims for infants are based on studies of college students and three-year-olds and even these studies have been disputed by other studies that found no effect. Even the author of the original study states that there is no evidence for infants.

Jwb, you are right that there are no studies that would negate the Doc's claim but there is nothing to support it either. IMHO, the writers (through Doc) should not be endorsing real-life ideas as medically proveable when they are not.

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By DGLR on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 9:42 am:

Finally got to see this episode.
I liked it. The only thing that
really bugged me was to choose the holodoc as the godfather. Makes no sense whatsoever since B'Elanna has never been particularly close to the doc. Plus it seemed like she made the choice unilaterally, which isn't right.

And although, not a part of my religion, my understanding of godfathers is to assist in the spiritual education of the child. Kind of hard to do when one is not spiritual in any way. Especially not a good choice when the individual has no god or even a spirit.

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By TomM on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

Godparents, like the Best Man and Maid/Matron of honor at a wedding, have become, for those who have forgotten the spiritual origins, just a simple "honor." For those people, it just means a better present on the child's birthday, and that when visiting the parents, the godparent should spend a little time with the child. As often as not, the decision is made based on who would feel honored enough to become an occasional free baby-sitter. More's the pity that so much has been lost.

Under that kind of circumstance (where there is no deep meaning), it makes perfect sense that Belanna would ask the doctor, as part of her apology for tampering with his programming.

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By Jwb52z on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 9:21 pm:

TomM, the "God Parents" are also usually the ones who are asked to take over raising the child if the parents die.

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By DGLR on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 12:35 pm:

And what happened to God Mothers?

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By Jwb52z on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 12:54 pm:

God Parents encompasses both, DGLR.

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By TomM on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 4:00 pm:

Jwb52z-

I know that for those of us for whom the honor still has meaning there are responsibilities beyond what I listed. I was describing the state of affairs in the more secular circles that the writers and, presumably, the human members of the Voyager crew, move in.

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By Trike on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 12:27 am:

I finally saw this episode. It makes me wish Voyager had done more character-driven episodes, and it was nice that they didn't bother with a B-plot featuring aliens or the spatial anomoly of the week.

The story was pretty good, but B'Elanna's actions were over-the-top in reprogramming the Doctor, especially considering that she wasn't punished. I almost liked more the portrayal of Tom. I don't think I've ever seen him this ... smart. He went to Tuvok for parenting advice and to Icheb for help on genetics. Best of all, he called for Tuvok to meet him at Sick Bay and didn't rush to the rescue himself.

Two nits:

-- When Harry cuts power to the surgical bay, the force field comes down, but the device that's casting the blue glow on B'Elanna's belly doesn't cut off. Instead, Tom rushes over and turns it off.

-- B'Elanna asks the Doctor to show her the image of the baby at end. Why did she need his help? She called it up earlier in the holodeck. (By the way, did you notice that as B'Elanna was removing more of her Klingon DNA from the child, the more the child looked like Tom -- meaning the lighter hair, not the obvious forehead ridges)?

A near-nit: Some of the flashback scenes went on for a quite a while before we knew B'Elanna was in position to hear what was being spoken, even though she wasn't visible. It made me briefly think B'Elanna was "flashing back" to moments when she wasn't present. Anyway, I think the scenes would have had more impact if they had been shot more strictly from B'Elanna's perspective.

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By constanze on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 11:30 am:

Is it only me, or is B'elanna very touchy in the flashbacks? I thought that the teasing shown was harmless. She mentions the kids at school, but from what was shown, she didn't have a hard childhood. Or is the teasing so bad because in the advanced future even kids should know better and be raised to be tolerant, non-xenophobic people, like the Starfleet crews?

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By Hannah F., West Wing Moderator (Cynicalchick) on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 11:04 pm:

Richie?

I have a problem with your synopsis:

The Plot: B'Elanna and Tom are going to have a baby


Notes: For the record, B'Elanna Torres becomes pregant.


Really? They're going to have a baby? But I thought B'Elanna was pregnant?

*Sorry. Had to be said.*

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By Captain Obvious on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 6:53 pm:

Why put the second "n" in boldface, Hannah? He got that one.

*Ditto.*

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By CC on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 7:15 pm:

A mistype, Captain.:P

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By LUIGI NOVI on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 11:39 pm:

Don't you stick that tongue out at me, young lady.

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By LUIGI NOVI on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 11:12 pm:

From the “How would you tell the difference?” Files:
Great Line: “You can expect some behavioral volatility…” –Doc to Paris in the opening scene of Act 1, regarding how Torres’ pregnancy will affect her.

It wasn’t a parasite. It was just grows into something that feels like it to some parents
David E. Slus, in his review of the episode at http://www.cynicscorner.org/voy_7/voy_712.html, pointed out that when Torres falls ill in Engineering in the teaser, Icheb scans and detects another lifesign, and thinks it could be a parasitic infection. Seven correctly interprets the tricorder to mean that Torres is pregnant. So Icheb, who’s a boy genius, and who specializes in genetics, can’t read pregnancy on a tricorder properly?
She must’ve been genetically engineered with Retin-A
Torres established in Faces that her father left her and her mother when she was five years old. But Alexander Rozhenko appeared to be physically the equivalent of a human ten-year-old when he was only one year old, and the equivalent of a 21-year old human when he was only eight years old, so Torres, who is chronologically five in the flashbacks of this episode, should appear considerably older, but doesn’t.
So they get an extra lung, but can’t even evolve better teeth?
Doc tells Torres in the opening scene of Act 3 that Klingon traits like a third lung may have evolved over eons the eons to give Klingons advantages on the battlefield. Evolution occurs in populations over extremely long periods of time. In the entire history of the Klingon humanoid species, have they really been warriors long enough for evolution to have made such major changes?
Or was it some freaky alien fish that was flying a kite shaped like five human appendages?
David E. Sluss also noticed that during the flashback at the end of Act 3, Torres’ Uncle Carl says he saw a fish fly five “feet” in the air. Were they still using the Imperial System back then?
Thirty weeks was just how long it seemed to take for Worf to admit that Alexander was his kid
Doc says in the beginning of Act 1 that the Klingon pregnancy normally lasts 30 weeks (seven and a half months). I don’t think so. Worf and K’Ehlyr conceived Alexander Rozhenko in The Emissary(TNG), which was on stardate 42901.3, and Alexander said in New Ground(TNG) that he was born on stardate 43205. Stardate 42901.3 falls on November 26, 2365, and stardate 43205 falls on March 16, 2366 (See Chain of Command part I(TNG) for more information on staredate-to-Earth date conversion). That means K’Ehlyr’s pregnancy lasted about fourth months, not seven and a half. Now true, K’Ehlyr was half human, so Alexander was one quarter human, but mating with a human would make the pregnancy longer, not shorter, since human pregnancy lasts nine months.
He must be running from a PC
In Act 1, Torres says she doesn’t want to know the gender of the child, so the Doctor agrees not to tell them. But at the end of Act 1, he slips and indicates it’s a female. Doc’s a computer program. Should this be possible?
From the “All You Voyager Guys Look Alike To Me” Files:
When Torres and Paris argue in the Delta Flyer in Act 3, Paris points out that their daughter will not be treated with bigotry as B’Elanna herself was as a child, because the crew is a diverse mix of many aliens, and Torres retorts that 140 members of the crew are human. 140? I don’t think so. As I pointed out under nits for Nightingale, the crew in that episode numbered 138. With Naomi Wildman and Icheb, there are 140 people in total on Voyager. Now let’s count the aliens. Tuvok, B’Elanna, Neelix, Vorick, Chell, Gerron, (the last two from the episode Learning Curve), Golwatt (first mentioned in Flashback and first seen in the episode Hunters), Naomi Wildman, Tabor (The Bajoran from the episodes Nothing Human and Repression), Icheb, and the female Borg infant from Collective who’s never been seen again. That’s ten. When Seven later looks at the Voyager crew members in the Quarren personnel files in Act 2 of Workforce part II, there’s a Bolian male in the upper right hand corner of the grid that’s never been seen before. That’s eleven. The Doctor should count too, because he’s not human, isn’t biological, and doesn’t have prejudicial attitudes. That’s twelve. If we were to count the Vulcan female seen with Chakotay in Act 2 of Repression (which I pointed out under nits for that episode could not be there, leaving her inclusion up to the reader), then it’s thirteen. There cannot, therefore, be more than 127-128 humans on board, and keep in mind that I’ve only counted alien characters that we’ve seen. There could very well be more on board that we haven’t seen, or that have been mentioned by dialogue. In Act 3 of The Haunting of Deck Twelve, for example, the computer mentioned an Ensign Tumari, which sounds like it may be an alien name. So the human count of 127 could be a conservative one.
Dammit, I’m a doctor, not your personal projectionist!
David E. Sluss wondered why Torres has to ask Doc to see the hologram of her baby in the last scene of the episode when she can call it up herself anytime she wants to.

The holodeck is programmed to force pregnant woman to do twisting and turning exercises to improve their back muscles and flexibility
In the final scene of Act 2, Torres goes to the holodeck to project an image of her daughter as a child, but instead of projecting in front of her, it projects behind her, forcing her to keep turning around in order to manipulate the console controls and view the results each time.
Nice to know that in the future, you can treat your entire genome like a set of Lego blocks
During this procedure, Torres deletes entire sections of her daughter’s genetic code, and once she’s found the sequence that makes her daughter look more human, asks the Doctor in the opening scene of Act 3 to do so for real. Shouldn’t Torres instead select certain genes to replace or make dormant?

By S. Donaldson on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:17 pm:
"In this episode (and in real life many times) everyone is treating "godfather" as an honorary and meaningless title. For those of you who don't know, a godfather and godmother are appointed by the parents at the time of a baby's christening."

I'm Catholic, and an old priest told me once "You christen a boat, you baptise a child"

Yeah, I know this message is about 6 years too late, but I'm finally getting to see season 7. I didn't have UPN, and the local station stopped geting the syndicated eps at the end of season 5

"Regarding Harry's Saxophone, as anyone who plays a woodwind instrument would know, the fingerings for the clarinets, saxophones, oboes and flutes are almost identical." SLUGBUG

I don't think flutes are considered to be a woodwind instrument, since they don't use a reed, but I will agree that clarinets and sax's are similar. Not a nit but in "Nightingale" Harry had a tenor, while in this ep he played an alto.

"Because 'The Chase' was an episode that should never have happened." Rene

But it did happen and was quite a good ep IMO.

The only other thing I have is somebody said that BLT cut Janeway off when talking about Seven taking over for her but she didn't.

No, flutes are considered woodwinds.

The plot thickens with you ScottN. I was a band geek to and my music teachers always seperated flutes and woodwinds, physically and verbally. Perhaps that, and their lack of wood, made me think otherwise.

What happened to those "Safety Measures" that 7 of 9 was supposed to install to protect the EMH's programming? (She said she'd do that in "Equinox Pt. 2")

It's hardly appropriate for Icheb to scan her, after all how many terrible things could it be. Maybe she collapsed because of an expanding micro virus or maybe it's one of those parasites from Conspiracy. Sure he should have announced it a bit quieter and then him and Seven should have kept their mouths shut but he couldn't necessarily afford to wait to scan her. As for right to privacy a normal citizen should expect more but she's on a military ship that's stranded halfway across the galaxy, they would have to bend a few rules.

Starfleet isn't military. At least not military like we have now.