---Synopsis:
Voyager transports a group of Nygean prison guards and murder convicts from their disabled prison ship to rendezvous with another ship. The Doctor repairs neurological damage of one of the convicts, Iko, which he believes has corrected a congenital birth defect, giving Iko a sense of compassion and a conscience, and making him a totally different person. This creates a dilemma for the Voyager crew, who harbor reservations about transporting the prisoners to their executions.
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By Richie Vest
Nits: Boy as subtle as a Mack Truck. I did like it though. The reformed bad guy was excellent.
1. Maybe i missed it but where were this guys coming from?
Happy Nitpicking!
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 3:54 pm:
Yes, tooting my own horn here. But how often can I claim this?
This episode is based, in part, on a premise I pitched back in July.
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By KAM on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 4:14 pm:
Break out the gutting knives! We're gonna rip this sucker to shreds! ;-)
Just kidding. Congrats. Hopefully you'll get your name in the credits next time.
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By Spornan on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 5:02 pm:
As often as you'd like. Watch:
This episode is based, in part, on a premise I pitched back in July.
Congmiceulations
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By Rene on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 7:57 pm:
Of course, if you had worked for DS9, you would have got onscreen credit.
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 8:15 am:
Doubtful. I didn't have a hand in the development of the actual story. The story I pitched has nothing to do with the story of this episode (aside from the fact that Voyager is transporting alien convicts). In order to get story credit, I would have had to type up the story outline. Rob took a story they had bought and tried to develop a year or two ago and incorporated an element from my pitch.
I was reasonably well-compensated for it, believe me. Especially in light of the fact that what was essentially bought was something I pitched at the last second. I pitched my story, Rob didn't find it feasible for a number of reasons, and I said, "Or you could do *this*..." And that's what they bought.
Sorry to be vague, but I'm late for work. And I am probably including the story of this pitch in my article for Star Trek: The Magazine.
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By Ed Watson on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 12:11 pm:
Hey, that great news WTW! Congrats.
You better watch out. You're getting dangerously close to having to drop the "Wannabe" from your handle. ;-)
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By Rene on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 7:57 pm:
"Doubtful. I didn't have a hand in the development of the actual story."
So? In the DS9 Companion, for that episode with Nog in the holosuite, the guy who originally did the pitch had nothing to do with the final production and the story he pitched didn't come close to resembling the plot for the episode and yet he got credit.
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 12:31 pm:
I haven't read what you're referring to. I know all about how aired episodes bear no resemblance to the original pitches and story outlines. But he must have written the original story outline for the episode for him to be able to get story credit. This isn't a Voyager vs DS9 thing. This is a Writers Guild thing.
If they would have gone ahead with my Real Life pitch, then I would have been asked to write up the first draft of the story outline and I would have gotten credit for that. In this case, they already had a story (by Mike Sussman) they had bought befirehand but were kind of stuck on. His story, if memory serves, was about Seven coming to the defense of a former Borg drone being put on trial (and later execution) for his crimes while in the Collective, even though now he's changed. And that's still sort of at the heart of the story for this episode (I believe). Rob took an element from my pitch (Voyager is helping an alien population transport their criminals) and injected that into the Mike Sussman story.
I sold the concept of alien prisoners, not my story (as much as I would have liked to).
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By Jwb52z on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 12:48 pm:
WTW, are you saying that a pitch is never taken as is and produced? I'm not surprised, really, but it does seem kinda sad that someone's pitch isn't done the way they want it since they sent it in that way.
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 9:27 pm:
Some produced episodes turn out precisely like what was pitched. Others don't. Remember, television is a *highly* collaborative process. Though one (or two) writers are often the ones to get sole credit, there are a *lot* more hands involved. And the story development process continues right into the filming of a show.
A pitch is just a rough idea of a story. It shouldn't be surprising that there are parts of pitches that are well-received, and others that aren't. The writer's job is to mold the story into something that the producers are going to be willing to use. And even then, changes are inevitable. Something that sounds like a good idea, doesn't always wind up being such a great idea when it's executed. This is the nature of the beast that is television.
Only a Stephen Bochco can produce a story the way he wants to.
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By Rene on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:32 am:
I don't know. I still think you should have gotten credit. Then we could have finally learned your name :p
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By Corey Hines on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:58 pm:
Not a not, more of an amazement. They had a non discript secruity guard speak.
At least they had a reason to be at impulse in this ep.
Thought Seven's nanoprobes were located in her injestion tubes on her hand.
Why do they design force fields to hurt of you touch it for a long time. I thought they were just artificial walls.
It took the Voyager a long time to actually fire back, you would think Riker was commanding it.
Warp at the end, this ep is full of surprises.
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By Adam Bomb on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:06 pm:
Dear WTW: Are you sure about Bochco? His track record lately isn't too good-"Public Morals," "Brooklyn South" and (I think) "City of Angels." "NYPD Blue" is getting stale, and he had a lot of help with that with David Milch (who left at the end of last season.) Some producers coast on affection for their past projects-Coppola coasted for years on affection for the two "Godfathers" and "Apocalypse Now." Bochco may still be coasting on affection for "Hill Street" and "NYPD"
I hope you get some kind of credit. "Next Gen" had a couple of eps with a "From an idea by" at the back end. (Of course, the end credits on "Voyager" are so squished they are barely readable.)
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By Lee Jamilkowski (Ljamilkowski) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:16 pm:
Continuity: The Doctor mentioning the Barge of the Dead.
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By Anonymous on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:27 pm:
Given the controversial nature of this episode, I suspect either one of two things will occur in the near future:
Possibility 1: Polite conversation about the ethics of the death penalty taken over to Religious Musings.
Possibility 2: A flame war within the confines of this space.
Which would you rather see? The choice is obvious.
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:29 pm:
::Thought Seven's nanoprobes were located in her injestion tubes on her hand.:: Corey Hines
The tubules are just a passage way for nanoprobes like they are in the male testicles for sperm. The only difference is that they are stored in the testicles. The nanoprobes are also throughout Seven's body.
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By Aaron Dotter on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:00 pm:
Why didn't they just keep the prisoners sedated or in stasis? Then the possibility of them escaping would have been eliminated.
It was nice to see a no-name redshirt have a couple of lines.
Those dividing windows in the mess hall on the counter, are they new? Have they been seen before?
At the end, that criminal who had the phaser had set it to kill, hadn't he? So when the security man stole it was it still on kill? Or maybe did the criminal did not know how to set the phaser properly?
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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:00 pm:
Listening to Janeway talk about "we were headed in the other direction" is pretty funny, considering how the stars are standing perfectly still outside the window.
Who didn't see the beating of the prisoner coming from a mile away? So far the whole episode seems pretty easy to anticipate.
When Neelix is giving the "gentle prisoner" his food, the Voyager Guard puts his hand on his sidearm...which remains in it's holster! Hardly seems like a smart thing to do. I'd have my phaser out and pointed directly at the prisoner.
Stars aren't moving while B'elanna and Tom try to get some dinner.
Why doesn't this episode just hire Keenan Ivory Wayans to shout out "MESSAGE!" during the entire thing?
More Impulse from Voyager
There's only one guard with Iko at any time. That certainly doesn't seem like a good idea.
I'm not gonna list the number of times Voyager is at impulse during this episode. Suffice it to say: They are always at impulse.
Gee, you'd think that they'd put in some sort of backup system for if the power goes out. No wonder the Nygean warden was so angry about not being able to guard the prisoners himself. One little fuse breaks, and the everyones doors open!
Is there anyone who didn't think that Neelix's prisoner friend was faking it?
I gotta say, especially after coming after last weeks very good episode, this one was just too obvious and "LOOK OUT FOR THE MESSAGE" for me to enjoy it.
But hey, at least there's ONE shot of them going warp at the end.
Well, off to read everyone else's nits now. I didn't really see too many.
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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:01 pm:
Corey: What reason did they have to go at impulse?
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By Spockania on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:09 pm:
I must agree with Spornan, being hit over the head with the message really make it hard to watch.
There's either a bad edit or a nit when the prisoners break out. When the power first goes out the guards on the lower level are at one end firing down, and they stun several prisoners in seccession. That made sense. Wer then cut to the bridge, then back to the cargo bay. Now the guards are in the middle of the corridor, in hand to hand getting whooped. I'm a bit uncertain how that happened. Also, their is at least one guard on the balcony (he gets stunned). Why didn't he stun everyone on the lower level? Even if he shot his buddies, it's just a stun setting! His friends could get killed.
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By Rene on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:18 pm:
Reminds me of those pathetic lawyers who try get their clients off with pathetic excuses.
A bit hypocritical of the Doctor to use the nanoprobes given how he was disgusted about using the Cardassian Hologram. Using knowledge that was obtained by murdering Bajorans is wrong, but using knowledge that was obtained by the assimilation of many species is okay?
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By Shane Tourtellotte on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:20 pm:
I was surprised. A turgid, preach-by-the-numbers episode that was headed for my ten-worst list actually managed to achieve some poignancy by the end. Doesn't mean there aren't nits, though ...
Can The Doctor make only part of himself insubstantial? Tuvok's phaser shot passed through him, but Iko still had a grip around him. Shouldn't Iko's arm have passed through at the same time?
On Neelix's menu tonight: liola rice pilaf. Now, liola was a root, not a rice, right? (Or is liola the pilaf part of the recipe?)
All the while Paris is complaining to Neelix that he's famished, he's one foot away from a bowl of fruit, but doesn't think to grab anything.
At one point while Iko's still considered dangerous, The Doctor leaves a padd in the surgical bay. According to my old ST-TNG manual, padds can be used to interface with the ship's computer, and are capable of even steering the ship remotely. Is that something you want to leave in the hands of a hardened criminal?
Later, when cured Iko looks at a padd given to him by 7, he says "It's just words and numbers." Once again, alien races can read English letters and Arabic numerals with no trouble.
{sigh} I hate deus ex machina. How convenient that a ship comes and attacks, knocking out power so an escape attempt can begin. I know they connected it at the end, but it still feels so sloppy.
And the goldshirts didn't cover themselves with glory, either, letting themselves get overwhelmed. Ever hear of a wide-field stun setting, gang?
Why did Yanik(or whatever) and his cohorts have their weapons back, after Janeway disciplined them for the beating of Iko?
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By Rene on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:28 pm:
"It's unfair". What's unfair? Putting someone to death for killing someone? Oh please.
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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:31 pm:
Take it to religious/political discussions, Rene.
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By Rene on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:35 pm:
Um...why? It was the point of this episode, so I have every right to bring it up here. This pathetic episode tried to make us feel sorry for a bunch of criminals. Sorry. Didn't happen. They killed, they deserved to be killed.
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By Rene on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:36 pm:
Anyway, the religious/political discussions at nitcentral are pathetic since you are obliged to agree with the majority or be shunned.
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By Spornan on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:47 pm:
First of all, it wasn't trying to make us feel sorry for criminals. That was just the Doctor's point of view. The episode was trying to point out (quite bluntly) that people can be reformed, and that not all murderers are evil people.
You'd think in an episode with such an obvious message, that people would at least get the message right.
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By Rene on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:51 pm:
BEFORE they even knew about his supposed condition, the crew was appalled that the criminals would be killed.....I was rolling my eyes the entire time. :p
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By PaulG on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 8:59 pm:
I agree with Spornan. Where was Keenan? Thank goodness for the Iko subplot which was much better than the rest of the heavy-handed episode.
However, impulse does make sense here. Since they are meeting up with an alien ship while heading in the opposite direction, they should go slow. They are also delaying the executions which is probably intentional.
To the NITS:
When they beam the alien crew aboard Voyager, two with faint life signs are transported directly to sick day. While one was unconscious on the floor, Iko was able to physically restrain and threaten Seven. He’s not exactly your prototypical ICU patient.
Neelix once again is feeding unknown aliens with food that they most likely have never experienced before. Considering that the Doc apparently knows little of the alien physiology, this is just begging for a violent allergic reaction (as opposed to the standard violent reaction). ;-)
Tuvok is “qualified” to guard such dangerous prisoners? Voyager is just one giant security hole. And the warden was right that Tuvok was not qualified to guard such dangerous prisoners. A competent security officer would have a backup plan in case of a power outage such as (1) a door on the cell or (2) a mechanical blast proof seal on the doors or (3) knock out gas. The guards are not enough.
What’s with the lights on the alien prisoners’ uniforms?
Remember when Neelix was the space smart trader that managed to trick the Voyager crew to save Kes from the Kazon? Now he’s just a bumpkin.
I have to question the sanity of not returning fire until shields are down to 60%.
We have more of the phaser follies. The prisoners were threatening to kill the warden with a phaser on stun. Just for the record, all the aliens appeared to press or threatened to press the left button. There was a “beep” in between the scene where the prisoners seal themselves into the cargo bay and the scene where the “nice” prisoner threatens to kill the warden. I am guessing the beep was from the phaser but it did not seem to do anything.
During the attack, a console explodes behind Kim. Kim, Janeway and Paris are physically shaken about. However, the nameless crewman behind Janeway doesn’t move at all.
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By Jwb52z on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 9:31 pm:
Rene, to some people, not me, it is too big a chance to take that you will execute an innocent person, possibly. I do think, however, that you shouldn't execute mentally insane people who can't control their actions. Any crime committed during such a time is not the person's fault since they couldn't help their impulses.
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By D.W. March on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:31 pm:
Paul: Iko wasn't a prototypical (or first of his kind) patient. I think STEREOtypical is the word you're looking for. If it's any consolation, Tom Clancy made the exact same mistake in one of his books!
Does no one in the 24th century know how to build a proper jail cell? Voyager was obviously able to put those jail cells together pretty fast so why not put some mechanical restraints over the door? If the jail cells had bars in front of the entrance, the prisoners wouldn't have been able to get out!
The prisoners wouldn't have gotten out of the cargo bay if a certain Vulcan security officer had been thoughtful enough to LOCK THE DOOR!
Two words: WIDE BEAM!
Another: ANESTHEZINE. Perhaps Voyager has run out? It would have at least been worth a try. They could have always said "It doesn't work on their phsyiology."
When the alien warden said "Tuvok isn't qualified" I wondered if he was a psychic.
At the end, Seven feels guilty about killing people. But IIRC, the Borg don't kill their victims, they assimilate them. All she really did was invite a bunch more people to the biggest party in the galaxy!
BTW, Rene, we already know WTW's name. He's posted it on one of the boards here before. I don't remember his last name, but I remember his first name being Juan.
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By Newt on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 11:02 pm:
Did anyone find a link between Iko and the Capital Shooting shooter Weston? I read a few weeks ago about his lawyers protecting his from trial and likely execution, but not letting the court order him to receive mental treatment.
Well actually I guess it's not that similar, but it kinda echoed enough for me to notice it.
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By Keith Alan Morgan (Kmorgan) on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 1:42 am:
A better title would have been, MESSAGE! MESSAGE! BE SURE TO NOTICE THE MESSAGE!
When beaming them aboard Janeway says, "I want security at both locations." Then they cut to Sickbay & the prisoner is holding a weapon on 7. Fat lot of good Security did.
Why would the Doctor walking around affect 7's reprogramming? Isn't his program in the computer?
The cages... BILC!
The Doctor's argument about Life Imprisonment being the same as the Death Penalty has a fundemental flaw. There's no possibility of escape from Death.
(Well, now that I think about it it does seem possible in Star Trek. Scotty, Spock, Neelix, etc. So I guess it's just a real life nit.;-)
The food hole in the forcefield seemed ridiculous.
So why couldn't the PADD display star patterns? I believe we've seen PADDs with graphic displays before.
He's not the same man who committed the crime. Oh, please. Are any of us the same person we were? We all have experiences & incidents that change us over time.
I believe in one of the Maigret stories by Georges Simeon, a young policeman was asking Maigret how he thinks like a criminal, and Maigret said something like 'before he commits a crime he is a person like you or me.'
Also, even with the 'Jiminy Cricket' part of his brain disconnected, he still had to make the decision to kill that person. (Okay, they were a little vague about his motive, but a drunk driver has a better claim for innocence than this guy did.)
7's comparing herself to the prisoner doesn't really hold up either. As part of the Collective she was one voice among trillions, even if the group mind & implants didn't take away her free will. This guy was an individual.
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By MarkN on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 4:16 am:
My grand-ma and your grand-ma were
Sit-tin' by the fire.
My grand-ma told
Your grand-ma: "I'm gon-na set your flag on fire."
Talk-in' 'bout, Hey now ! Hey now ! I-KO, I-KO, un-day
Jock-a-mo fee-no ai na-né. - Jock-a-mo fee na-né.
Um, er, ahem, hee-hee, sorry about that, but could anyone else not help but think of this song during this ep?
I know all about how aired episodes bear no resemblance to the original pitches and story outlines.
I can relate to this. WTW, you're not the only one here who's sent in at least one idea to a TV show. I'm sort of embarassed to admit this but when I was a teen I had a bit of a crush on Jill Whelan, who played Vicki Stubing on the original Love Boat, but that's not the embarassing part.
What is was the time I sent her a crazyass idea I had for a storyline. I vaguely remember what it was exactly but I think it was of someone who comes aboard the ship, either stoned or they get stoned later on and run around crazily, pretty much like someone on drugs would. Well, they go to the top of the ship and threaten to jump or to kill someone they have with them as a hostage, I forget exactly cuz it's been so long, but it was a pretty mixed up idea to come up with (I was a teen with a crush, ok?). That's the embarrassing part.
Anyway, one day I got a reply from Jill, in the form of just a small black and white photo of her, thanking me for the letter and she suggested that if I had anymore ideas that I should send them to the writers of the show. Well, some months, or however long a length of time it was later, I'm watching the show and there's this one kid who comes on and befriends Vicki, and it turns out that he's got a drug problem and his name is Mark! Coincidence? I think not. Needless to say I was pretty floored by that, recognizing it as coming in part from my idea to Jill. I once saw Jill on Jenny Jones' show and wished I could've been there to tell her about the letter and thank her for taking my idea, as screwed up as it was, to the writers and their naming the character after me, which they obviously did. WTW, maybe that'll happen with you, too, although it'd be lot more cooler having a ST character named after you than a Love Boat character was for me, and it wouldn't be impossible, considering how some ST characters, items, places and ships were named after real life people (Jeffries Tubes, USS Grissom, El-Baz, etc). Good luck.
I'm not gonna list the number of times Voyager is at impulse during this episode. Suffice it to say: They are always at impulse.
Ok, so they're impulsive.
Later, when cured Iko looks at a padd given to him by 7, he says "It's just words and numbers." Once again, alien races can read English letters and Arabic numerals with no trouble.
I wondered this exact same thing.
The food hole in the forcefield seemed ridiculous.
I thought that was actually kinda cool. The food could be passed to the prisoners without the prisoners being able to attack the person giving them the food and making a break for it. I just wondered why they didn't come up with it sooner, especially as I was watching a rerun of "Thirty Days" right after this ep.
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By Brian Lombard on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 5:11 am:
As of TOS, the Federation still makes use of the death penalty, for those who would journey to Talos IV. Maybe it's been lifted by the 24th century, but it's not that foreign a concept to these folks. They sound very hypocritical.
I'd like to take a moment to examine Paris's comment about never believing inmates claims to being innocent. Since he's been in the Delta Quadrant, he's been framed for three different crimes. (Ex Post Facto, Investigations, and Fair Trade). You'd think a guy with that track record would be a little more sympathetic.
Neelix's inmate buddy was played by FJ Rio. If he looks familiar, it's cause he was in the DS9 episode "The Ship," playing O'Brien's engineering buddy who died a long painful death after a Jem Hadar attack.
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By Ghel on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:07 am:
"Also, even with the 'Jiminy Cricket' part of his brain disconnected, he still had to make the decision to kill that person. (Okay, they were a little vague about his motive, but a drunk driver has a better claim for innocence than this guy did.)"
Even with our 20th (or 21st now) century technology, psychologists are aware of a lifelong personality disorder known as "antisocial personality disorder." If we could use nanotechnology to fix this very real condition, you would still hold the person responsible?!? While mental illness is often used by lawyers as an excuse, that does not mean that real mental illness does not exist.
I must admit I laughed when Janeway asserted that Tuvok was qualified to guard prisioners. I don't think I'd qualify him to guard my underpants! (Of course, Ent-D wasn't much better security-wise. I think it's a Starfleet wide problem.)
I liked the character switch the writers pulled in this ep. The overtly "hardened-criminal" was the one who actually turned out to be decent, and the guy Nelix was fawning all over turned out to be the ruthless criminal.
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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:59 am:
'a lifelong personality disorder known as "antisocial personality disorder."'
Sounds like a term made up by lawyers to me.
By Ghel on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 8:40 am:
Bzzt! Nope. Sorry Rene, personality disorders are very real. Antisocial is just one of them. There is also Avoidant; Borderline--which got it's name because symptomology is very similar to Schitzophrenia, hence "borderline" schitzophrenic; dependant; histronic; narcissistic; paranoid; obsessive-compulsive; Schizoid; and Schizotypal just to name a few.
In terms of antisocial personality disorder, about 3% of men and 1% of women are believed to have this disorder.
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By Ghel on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 8:47 am:
Incidentally, antisocial and borderline personality disorders have been found to have a strong genetic link.
Also, electroencephalograms (EEG), measurements have also found that people with borderline and antisocial personality disorders generally have brainwave abmormalities.
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By PaulG on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 9:50 am:
MarkN: Now that I think about it, the feeding hole in the force field is dangerous if used improperly (which it was, of course). The prisoner could easily have grabbed Neelix's hands and wrists, especially since the dimwit put his hands through the hole instead of forcing the prisoner to reach for the food. The criminal could then test the force field with Neelix's face, arms or body while using the force field and Talaxian's body as shields against the phasers. The only way to stop the prisoner (other than letting Neelix get beat up unmercifully until the prisoner tired or Neelix died) would be to lower the force field which is exactly what a criminal bent on escape would want.
Then again, maybe that was Tuvok's plan all along! I just cannot accept a Vulcan is this dumb.
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By Alleycat on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:24 am:
I thought that this was perhaps of of the best episodes of VOY I have ever seen! It had a lot of morality issues that was well-dealt with, suspense, and unpredictability. Plus they were at warp at the end.. Wahh-Hoo!!
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By Alleycat on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:25 am:
Also, when it had a 'Cape Fear' feeling to it (especially when the prisoner was doing chin-ups in the cage)
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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:34 am:
Spornan: "I'm not gonna list the number of times Voyager is at impulse during this episode. Suffice it to say: They are always at impulse."
GET A LIFE SPORNAN (a.k.a. The Voyager-hater)!!! They were waiting for the other Prisoner Transport Ship. Can't do that at warp!
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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:47 am:
I thought it was very predictable and it had all the subtleness of a giant plaque that says "MESSAGE, PEOPLE. THIS IS THE MESSAGE. MAKE SURE YOU DON'T MISS.....THE MESSAGE!!!!!!!"
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By George W. Bush on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 11:17 am:
Send them boys to Texas. I'll take care of 'em!
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By Miko Iko on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 11:21 am:
Looks like I'm going to have to change my handle after this ep. :-)
All I can do is echo others who previously posted that it was pretty heavy handed. You know you're in for trouble when one of the characters acts as the "obvious voice of the screenwriter" and starts spouting off statistical data to ram the point home.
It did take an interesting turn at the end, though, but not enough to salvage the ep. And Iko's plea for leniency could've been a little more, shall we say, "effective". I'm not surprised that the victim's family wasn't swayed.
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By Alleycat on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 11:42 am:
I guess I'm the first to realize this, but why was the Warden carrying a Federation Phaser (which of course taken away by the 'nice' prisoner)? Isn't that against the Prime Directive too? I guess if they give away replicators technology, they feel that they can give anything away too...
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By Hans Thielman on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 12:10 pm:
Did the Federation abolish the death penalty for visiting Talos IV?
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By PaulG on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 12:52 pm:
Alleycat: The aliens were probably only borrowing the weapons. With eight murderers on the loose, Tuvok probably asked the alien guards for help and gave them the nearest available weapons. I doubt they would be allowed to keep them.
Hans: IIRC, I believe it was revoked in "The Menagerie".
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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 1:03 pm:
No it wasn't. They just ignore it for that one occasion.
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By Brian Lombard on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 1:49 pm:
It was still in place by the time of "Turnabout Intruder," 2.5 years after "The Menagerie."
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By AI Fix on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 1:59 pm:
I thought Iko looked a lot like Steven Tyler from Aerosmith.
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By Spornan on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 2:01 pm:
Thanks for the kind words Rene, whichever one I'm talking to.
I was under the impression, because of Janeway's "we're headed in the other direction" remark, that they were not going to slow down to help transport the prisoners. If they were going to just cruise along at impulse, they might as well have gone the few lightyears it took to drop off the prisoners, and then come back. It wouldn't be that much time.
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By The Undesirable Element on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 2:25 pm:
Rene: The death penalty is controversial for a reason. You're opinion is not shared by all. (It is definitely not shared by me!)
COMMENTS:
>> Nice closure to "Day of Honor" when Torres asks Seven if she feels any remorse for what she did as a Borg and Seven says no.
>> The ending kept me guessing until Seven said: "perhaps you could come with us." That comment will get you a one-way ticket on the Barge of the Dead my friend. (See "Innocence" for an example) Fortunately the answer came 2 seconds later anyway.
>> Didn't anybody check the letter before transmitting it to this guy's brother?
>> This was pretty good for a "slam me over the head with a sledgehammer" message episode. At least the only real "HERE'S THE MESSAGE" moment was from the doc but since he's got ethical subroutines I think we can forgive that.
>> Tuvok is no worse than Worf. Worf shoots at a Ferengi (A FERENGI) and misses (see "Rascals" from TNG). Of course Odo was the best but he wasn't Starfleet.
>> Interesting how Iko makes his personal plea in front of the entire bridge crew. I think I would have preferred to do that in private. It's interesting how he wasn't too passionate about his release. It is consistant since he said that he deserves to die and that he can't live with the guilt.
>> The guy welded the door shut with a phaser. How did the phaser know to melt the door and not cut through it? (Because it read the script, that's why.)
>> Yes the sliding separaters have always been in the mess hall. Look closely and you'll see them in other episodes. They're usually open, though.
>> Being arrested and spending time in the slammer with murderous inmates are two different things. It's not inconceivable that Neelix would be fooled. (I know I was.)
NEXT WEEK: Those Klingon sleeper ships from TNG's "Emissary" are back, Tom's in Klingon warrior garb, and B'Ellana's baby is the Klingons' Jesus Christ!
This is gonna be a tough one for Action Kate and her Intrepid crew.
See ya later
TUE
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By Scanner on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 3:12 pm:
"Didn't anybody check the letter before transmitting it to this guy's brother?"
The letter was traced, it wasn't the contents of the letter that gave away Voyager's position.
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By Strgzr 47 on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 4:27 pm:
Odo never shot anyone, he didn't use a phaser ;-)
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By The Real Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:21 pm:
Sigh. Just so you know, Spornan...it wasn't me. Some childish person gets kicks from acting like a tough guy on the Internet. Probably scared of an ant in real life.
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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:24 pm:
And I predict that soon, this coward will write a post using the nickname "The Real Rene" just to show how mature he can be.
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By Rene on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 7:25 pm:
Rene: The death penalty is controversial for a reason. You're opinion is not shared by all. (It is definitely not shared by me!)
Good for you. Did I ask you?
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By Somebody who missed the episode because it was pre-empted by hockey again! but who felt like skimming through the posts anyway and saw Ghels comment which seemed kinda silly and I felt like answering it... on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 8:58 pm:
Ghel said he/she doesn't think Tuvok's qualified to guard his/her underpants. 'Scuse my curiosity, but that suggests that if Tuvok was guarding Ghel's underpants, something would go terribly wrong. So I can't figure out what could go wrong?
Or maybe I'm being too literal?
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By MarkN on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 3:45 am:
Paul, thanks. I hadn't considered that.
Mike Iko, did you get a lot of teasing for your last name as a kid? I know I did with mine.
You know you're in for trouble when one of the characters acts as the "obvious voice of the screenwriter" and starts spouting off statistical data to ram the point home.
This became very prevalent on Designing Women, whose creator, Linda Bloodworth-Thomason, used the show to spout off so many times in Julia Sugarbaker's ubiquitious rants, which I got so tired of that I stopped watching the show. Yes, I used to watch it for the first couple years (besides, I've always liked Annie Potts--she's so cute), when it was still funny, but after awhile Linda's rants-disguised-as-dialog so turned me off that I couldn't stand it anymore.
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By Ghel on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 7:25 am:
"Ghel said he/she doesn't think Tuvok's qualified to guard his/her underpants. 'Scuse my curiosity, but that suggests that if Tuvok was guarding Ghel's underpants, something would go terribly wrong. So I can't figure out what could go wrong?
Or maybe I'm being too literal?"
I wasn't being particularly serious there. Besides, you never know when or where the underpants gnomes will strike next.
Step 1: Steal underpants
Step 2: . . .
Step 3: Profit!
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By Miko Iko on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 8:58 am:
MarkN: Don't worry, it's just a nickname. In fact it's been with me for so long I can't remember if I brought it on myself or not!
And the thing about those rants-disguised-as dialog is that even if you agree with them they make for very poor drama because the whole illusion gets immediately shattered. Don't these screenwriters know this?
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By AI Fix on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 9:05 am:
Case in point from TNG --
Wesley: Gee, Tasha, why do people take drugs?
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 11:12 am:
Admittedly, some of the issues (and there were so many) were a little too "on the nose,"as they call it at the offices.
Still, I enjoyed it for the most part (of course, I am terribly biased). And I got a real kick out of seeing some of the elements from my pitch make it into the final show: Creating a makeshift prison block on the ship. The discussion about the mistreatment of prisoners (though in mine, it was Janeway and Tuvok talking to the Doctor). Neelix wheeling in dinner.
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By Jwb52z on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 1:07 pm:
::Yes, I used to watch it for the first couple years (besides, I've always liked Annie Potts--she's so cute), when it was still funny, but after awhile Linda's rants-disguised-as-dialog so turned me off that I couldn't stand it anymore.:: MarkN
I always liked Julia's rants, myself. Forceful women are a turn on to me; that's why I like Captain Janeway.
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By Rene on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 1:14 pm:
I still think you have bad taste. I find nothing remotely attractive in Captain Janeway. Ewww. Janeway? Yuck.
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By PaulG on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 2:07 pm:
Jwb52z: TMI - TOO MUCH INFORMATION!
BTW, I see a field for a Password in the posting details. Does that actually work? Might be useful.
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By Jwb52z on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 4:11 pm:
Rene, you don't find strong women, who are confident, attractive?
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By Rene on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 4:22 pm:
I said I don't find Janeway attractive. Don't put words in my mouth.
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By Jwb52z on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 5:02 pm:
Rene, how could you not if you agree that she is strong and confident and you find that attractive in a person?
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By Rene on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 6:27 pm:
I don't think she is strong and confident. I find that she makes foolish decisions and always stand on weak ground.
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By Captain Obvious on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 12:49 pm:
Janeway's not a real person.
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By Jwb52z on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 12:52 pm:
Yes, but Kate Mulgrew is, and she's actually that way in real life if you hear her speak. She has a confident and strong, yet gentle, manner.
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By Spornan on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 4:22 pm:
Captain Obvious cracks me up.
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By Tricorder on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 9:49 pm:
There's an exchange late in the episode where Seven says Iko could stay on Voyager if granted leniency by the family. I don't buy that line. It's my understanding the family might have commuted the sentence to life imprisonment, but in no way were they going to let Iko become a free man.
I enjoyed the duplicity in the Neelix subplot more so than the preachy, predictable main plot. The best part of the main storyline was when Iko experienced guilt for the first time, and thought it was the Doctor's doing. I also wondered if it was the Doctor at first, then realized that Iko was being honest; he had no basis to know what guilt felt like.
I didn't like the assumption that the Voyager crew would all be opposed to the death penalty. As people have said above, the death penalty existed in the Federation as recently as 100 years prior. Tuvok recommended executing Suder in the second-season episode "Meld." In our world today, the death penalty is a debated issue, not one where the predominant leaning is toward doing away with it. To me, one of the most surprising aspects of the recent U.S. presidential election was that both major candidates -- Bush and Gore -- supported the death penalty. I think someone on the crew (Seven doesn't count; she wasn't reared in the Federation) could have spoken up in support of it.
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By Matt Nelson on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 7:46 am:
Spornan, you are correct. Captain Obvious is the MAN. :D
I have to agree that this ep was pretty heavy-handed, but then, I thought that about the last one as well.
Once again, Borg technology saves the day. (sigh)
You know, onto the point about someone else speaking up FOR capital punishment... Maybe Tom might have been a good character with whom to do this scene. He didn't seem to think the prisoners were all rosy-keen, and still a little bitter about his own time in prison.
I'm afraid I don't have a whole lot of nits in this ep, though I have to ask... how did the "hole in the forcefield" work?? I admit I don't know a lot about energy projection, but maybe one of you engineers can shed some light on this: How could they do it? It seems really odd.
Well, that's all for now. Next week's ep looks so incredibly BAD that I have high doubts that I'll even watch it.
Taa,
M@ Nelson
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By Vicki on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:52 am:
They drew it that way.
"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
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By PaulG on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:53 am:
Matt Nelson: Since I try hard to avoid the previews, I have no idea if the next ep looks good or not. But there are two things you should consider:
1) The Previews Always Lie!
2) Sometimes the worst episodes are the most fun to nit.
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By Rene...not! Not spornan either. Yeah, a wannabe writer but not the one whos been posting. Not Bill Clinton either, but is it possible? Maybe not, but hes got a little more time on his hands nowadays. Well, it doesnt really matter, does it? As long as I dont bollix up the software by putting too many characters into this space. By the way, this isnt really a pseudonym, its a short essay--thus being a pseudo-pseudonym, not that anybody will care. Oh, well. Is anybody annoyed by these ridiculously long pseudonyms? Do you wish Id stop? on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 4:35 pm:
Does everybody here know the term "Bat Durston"? Take a Western and turn it into SF by changing a few words? I wonder if people here think these two most recent episodes qualify at all? These aren't totally like that, but it wouldn't take much to put the same stories in episodes of ER.
They're already talking about genetic causes of criminal behavior, and genetic therapy.
No discussion of whether a person shouldn't go to heaven on the grounds that his brain was defective. The family could have said something like, "If he now deserves a good afterlife, he will get it that much sooner."
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By Jackknight on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 7:26 pm:
"I'd like to take a moment to examine Paris's comment about never believing inmates claims to being innocent. Since he's been in the Delta Quadrant, he's been framed for three different crimes. (Ex Post Facto, Investigations, and Fair Trade)." --Brian Lombard
Tom was also framed in "The Chute", wasn't he? Well, he and Harry were unjustly imprisoned, anyway.
There are dozens of better ways to feed prisoners than the hole-in-the-force-field method, e.g. (off the top of my head)
1) Guard points phaser at inmate and lowers the field, then tells him to back into the corner; Neelix sets down bowl in opposite corner; field goes back up
2) Bowl placed in front of cell by Neelix, Neelix and guards stand at farthest end of corridor and release inmate's field; inmate ordered to take bowl into his cell or else; field put back up
3) Data's cascade scan phase from "Brothers": force fields shrink cell to half its depth; bowl placed inside cell; field expands to original depth
4) "One bowl to beam in--energize!"
...etc.
Speaking of transporters, Tuvok calls for a transport of some loose inmates and is conveniently informed the transporters are offline. He could've used shuttle transporters (as Riker would've done in "Power Play").
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By Sheila on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 8:19 pm:
Why didn't they use the transporter on Seven when Iko was holding her hostage?
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By ScottN on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 1:10 am:
At the beginning, Janeway says they can't interfere because of the Prime Directive. Doesn't that only apply to non-warp capable societies?
Also, kudos to TPTB for bringing up Tom's incarceration.
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By Spornan on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 2:13 am:
Prime Directive means a lot of things. It means they cannot CONTACT pre-Warp societies. It also means they can't get involved with the internal affairs of another culture. That's why they couldn't get involved with the Klingon Civil War.
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By Anonymous on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 4:30 pm:
How many of you knew from the instant that the criminals were placed in their cells that the ship would be attacked and the forcefields dropped.
Can't they run some sort of battery powered system or have titanium encompassing ALL FOUR sides of the cells?
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By Rene on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 9:22 am:
But then the prisoner could not escape and we wouldn't have a story then....would we? ;)
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By Will Spencer on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:22 am:
The thought the cells were far too low, with a mere grating for a ceiling that was easily reached, even without being on tip toes, so if I were a prisoner I would have tried to break free that way. Why not make the ceiling 10 feet high, so even jumping they couldn't reach the top?
I know it's already been mentioned, but Voyager losing 60 % power before returning fire is just part of it; the enemy ship scored TWELVE direct hits before Janeway fought back! One was even on the bridge! Do you think she thought that the other ship might just apologize after the ninth or tenth shot? Even Picard would have returned fire sooner than that. At this rate, it's a miracle the ship hasn't wound up looking permanently like it did in 'Year Of Hell'. Come to tink of it, I think the producers are missing a decent plot reminder here by keeping Voyager looking so good, inside and out. You'd hardly believe she's been in battle dozens of times, looking as unblemished as she is. It just might remind the viewers and the crew that their plight is far from over, and they have little help.
You had to be about 5 years old to miss THE MESSAGE, but nobody here has mentioned how Neelix's friend mentioned that 'his people' are always incarcerated even on circumstantial evidence. To me, this sounds like the problems black men deal with, and instead of keeping this guy somewhat innocent, the producers made him as bad as the society thought he was, which makes it sound like the producers are saying that as long as the guy is black, he's probably a criminal.
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By Captain Obvious on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 3:14 pm:
What good is a message if nobody gets it??
By Ghel on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 9:23 am:
"Neelix's friend mentioned that 'his people' are always incarcerated even on circumstantial evidence. To me, this sounds like the problems black men deal with, and instead of keeping this guy somewhat innocent, the producers made him as bad as the society thought he was, which makes it sound like the producers are saying that as long as the guy is black, he's probably a criminal."
. . .But you expected him to be innocent. I loved the twist in this episode for that reason. He was using statistics and the victim mentality to manipulate Nelix. This is also the reason Nelix is peeved with him at the end of the episode. The man uses the legal problems of his own "people" (speces?) to manipulate Nelix's emotions. There are good people and bad in every race. Claiming that someone "has" to be innocent because of the color of their skin or the ridges on their forehead is just as predudicial as someone who claims they "have" to be guilty!
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By Rene on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 2:34 pm:
"If I like their race, how can that be considered prejudice?" - Jerry Seinfeld :p
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By Ghel on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:52 pm:
"If I like their race, how can that be considered prejudice?" - Jerry Seinfeld :p
Because, Jerry, you are still reducing a person to a set of racial stereotypes. :o)
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By Not Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 2:57 pm:
Like it or not, some races are identifiable by their stereotypes, whether they be black, white, Asian or gay.
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By Ghel on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 3:30 pm:
Do you mean that certain people act in a manner that is similar to their group's stereotype?
If you can name a "race" of people who all act like their stereotype, I'm 100% sure I can find someone in that race who acts/thinks differently than the others.
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By Brian on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 8:07 pm:
HAHA, finally someone tells the truth about what everybody thinks about WTW
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By Jwb52z on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:49 pm:
I hope you were joking, Brian. That's horrible.
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By SLUGBUG on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 11:49 pm:
Jwb52z, That Brian is probably the same faker as the WTW wannabe. Immature adolescents with too much time on their hands, and nothing constructive to contribute to an online forum. It is Too bad(sad?) their parents give them online access, most likely to keep them outta their own hair. :~}
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By SLUGBUG on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 11:59 pm:
If you can name a "race" of people who all act like their stereotype, I'm 100% sure I can find someone in that race who acts/thinks differently than the others. Ghel I saw a Race of people just this morning, I believe it was the Las Vegas Marathon. And yes, they were all Running. :~} Except for the people in wheelchairs, they were rolling, and IN THE LEAD. As for my stereo type, it is currently a Pioneer home theatre system. :~}
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 12:07 am:
You know what's really sad? Someone not only spent the time pretending to be me. But he actually spent the time going through the motions to set up a hotmail account. Makes you wonder who's really got nothing to do with his free time.
Thank you for sharing. But next time, try to be more clever and avoid the offensive talk.
As for Brian... I think it's great that you bravely waited until you saw someone agree with you before you posted your own thoughts. What a courageous way to demonstrate your convictions and beliefs.
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By Rene on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 6:25 am:
I agree. It is sad, WTW. It's probably the same guy who has been impersonating me lately.
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 10:12 am:
AAAAAH! Rene agrees with me. I'm currently skimming through the Book of Revelations to see if this is one of the signs of the impending apocalypse.
Of course, it could just be a sign that this isn't the *real* Rene. Maybe the Dominion has violated the treaty, and there are changelings amongst us. Time to submit to the blood tests. I prefer the Klingon method...
Rene, give me your hand...
;P
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By Rene on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 11:26 am:
Hahaha. I prefer the Starfleet method. Get Doctor Bashir down here. But if my blood changes shape, I'm not the Changeling. Bashir is :p
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By Wannabe Trek Writer on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 12:33 pm:
Ah... you choose the coward's way. Then you must be the true Rene.
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By Spornan on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 6:27 am:
I'm scared now. Who's who?
*Waits for his own clone to show up*
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By Wannabe Spornan on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 10:49 am:
Be quiet and look for streaking stars.
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By Spornan on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 11:10 am:
Like you had to tell me to do that.
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By Rene on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 1:57 pm:
Okay....this is getting confusing.
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By muas on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 8:14 pm:
Darnit, all the nits were taken. I wish I'd begun watching Voyager earlier so I could put my nits here, but I only began watching the reruns a few months ago. I did find a 47, though -
Janeway's last log, according to the dialogue, is a supplemental, but in the captioning it contains a stardate. The stardate includes a 47.
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By LUIGI NOVI on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 3:20 am:
muas: Darnit, all the nits were taken.
Luigi Novi: Heh, heh. Au contraire...
DS-David E. Sluss, whose reviews can be found at cynicscorner.org, wrote:
-----1. Tuvok and his security personnel didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory this week. (Hey, Shane! Looks like someone’s reading and swiping your posts’ wording without giving due credit! Your post with those words was on January 21st. David Sluss' was on February 5th. Or was it just coincidence?) We have the usual Keystone Kops stuff, such as security personnel standing stationary so they can be shot and Tuvok walking nonchalantly around the corridors while the escaped prisoners are running around the ship. Given the layout of the cells in the cargo bay, the escaped prisoners should have been like fish in a barrel. All the security guys had to do is stand at the door and fire phasers on wide sweep at anything that moved out of the cells. Tuvok’s men weren’t entirely at fault, though. Three shots from a pissant alien vessel bring down the forcefields, which apparently have no back-up power supply; maybe good old-fashioned iron bars would be better? On the bright side, Harry managed to keep unauthorized folks out of the shuttlebay for the first time in his career. Where’s that promotion?
-----2. A number of alternatives that might have saved some trouble were never explored. For instance, while the prison ship didn’t look to be in very good shape, we never saw it destroyed, and it’s possible that it could have been repaired. Another possibility, given how dangerous the prisoners were and Security’s less than luminous record, was putting all the prisoners in stasis for the duration. Voyager’s people either have bunches of them in stock, or the ability to create them fairly easily, according to the episode One.
-----3. The "Seven as hostage" bit in sickbay was pretty bogus. First of all, the two prisoners beamed to sickbay both had lifesigns that were extremely weak; yet the Con with a Heart of Gold seemed to be in pretty good shape, able to move quickly enough to grab both a weapon and a reflex-enhanced ex-Borg. Then we have Seven held at knifepoint. Good heavens! Any reason why they couldn’t be beamed out of sickbay with the knife filtered out? Any reason Tuvok couldn’t just "shoot first and ask questions later," i.e. stun the perp, and if he happened to stun Seven too, so what?
-----4. Why does Janeway put up with these little pissant ships damaging Voyager? She and the crew literally do nothing until after the power goes out on four decks! Is there some Starfleet regulation that says that you can’t shoot back until shields fall below 60%? And if so, why is that the one regulation Janeway sees fit to obey?
I wonder what the penalty is on Nygea for killing writers of bad episodes?
Jim Martin, who’s Voyager website, Delta Blues, can be found at www.treknews.com/deltablues, had this to say: We’re told that the sentencing procedures are determined by the family of the victim--those who are most personally affected by the death. Consider this possibility--you kill someone whose entire family hates him. Chances are, you’ll get off easy. Heck, it might even be their idea. How would Nygean law deal with THAT?
Janeway: Tuvok, lock onto the script for this preachy-ass episode and beam it into that fire!
We’ve all noted how ships should not be able to explode with the elaborate fireballs that they do in the vacuum of space, but in the teaser, it gets even worse. Now a ship is burning in space, with a sustained flame!
The Nygean ships are pulled by prison chain gangs, so it takes a bit longer
In Act 1, Warden tells Janeway that Nygea is 13 light years away. Janeway tells him that it is in the opposite direction of their journey, and Warden Yedick responds that he can have a ship meet them in several days. In several days, Voyager could journey 13 light years itself. It can travel 2.379 light years a day at maximum warp, so travelling 13 light years would only take 4.74 days.
Regulations state that in any plot involving mutiple prisoners, the more photogenic set shall be used to house them
Why does Tuvok place the convicts in the cargo bay instead of the brig?
They must’ve acquired them on Voyager through the Nygean prison smuggling system. Man, you can get ANYTHING through there!
When we first see the makeshift jail in the cargo bay in Act 1, Tuvok tells the Nygean guards that their weapons may only be carried in the cargo bay, and must be surrendered when leaving the bay, but for some reason, the Nygean guards carry Starfleet phasers and phaser rifles.
The convicts have to eat Neelix's food? (Insert your own "torture" or "cruel and unusual punishment" joke here.
When Neelix brings Talaxian spice stew and leola rice pilaff to the jail in Act 1, Warden Yedick says to take it back because the prisoners do not deserve such an elaborate meal. Neelix and Tuvok respond that Federation guidelines are clear regarding the treatment of prisoners. Sounds reasonable. So why did Neelix bring Paris leola root stew three times in one week in Thirty Days, saying that Janeway ordered him to be fed basic nutrition only? (I’m telling you, Janeway was really pissed at him in that episode!)
We sentenced him to watch "The 37s," "Twisted," "Threshold," "Favorite Son," ‘Concerning Flight," "Spirit Folk," "Fury," "Inside Man," "Prophecy" and "Q2" over and over again. The judge set aside the punishment on the grounds that it was cruel and unusual punishment.
In Act 2, Neelix tells Paris and Torres about the Nygean justice system in general, and Joleg’s case in particular, and says dismissively that he was convicted on circumstantial evidence. He says this as if to imply that the evidence was not strong, and that the case against Joleg was weak, and it’s not the first time such a line about circumstantial evidence has been in a Trek episode. (Act 4 of Things Past(DS9) is another example.) According to former Los Angeles district attorney Vincent Bugliosi, who successfully prosecuted Charles Manson for murder, and author of Outrage The Five Reasons Why O.J. Simpson Got Away with Murder, and the only person nominated three times for the Edgar Allen Poe Award for Best True Crime Book (he won twice, the first time for for Helter Skelter, based on the Manson Case) it is a common misconception, in part spread by movies and television, that cases based on circumstantial evidence are anemic ones. If someone is stabbed to death, and you find someone’s blood at the murder scene other than the victim’s, and match the DNA in the blood to the ex-husband of the victim, who had a history of spousal abuse toward the victim, and who could not come up with an alibi for the time in question, that is circumstantial evidence, and it’s strong circumstantial evidence.
-----When this episode premeired on Wednesday, January 21, 2001, it was coincidentally my second and final day of service on a jury that heard a case against a man charged with burglary of a K-Mart, theft of its property, and giving a false name to police when interrogated. Judge Kevin G. Callahan instructed us on the two types of evidence presented in court: Direct evidence and Circumstantial evidence (though I knew long before that that circumstantial evidence was not necessarily weak evidence.) The example he gave us of direct evidence was looking out the window and seeing that it is raining. Circumstantial evidence would be walking outside, seeing that everything was wet and that puddles were everywhere, and inferring from that that it rained. In the case against the defendant, Erskin Hargrove, he was spotted by a K-Mart employee in the store on June 6, 2001, at 7:30 am, a half hour before it opened, carrying a black sport bag from the store’s sporting goods department, and when police arrived, they and the store manager found the lock on the door to the store’s garden department broken open, and Hargrove hiding near some propane tanks inside the garden shop, with K-Mart tools and the black bag filled with store merchandise scattered on the ground nearby. He was identified by the employee as the man he saw earlier. He was arrested, and at the police station, he gave a fictitious name, George Waller, but was later identified as Erskin Hargrove. After just over an hour of deliberations with my fellow jurors, (our disagreements pertained not so much to whether he broke in, intended to commit theft or gave a false name, but more to the value of the stolen items as alleged by the store manager in court, and two my fellow jurors were slightly disturbed by the fact that the bag was moved before being photographed), we came back with a unanimous verdict of guilty on all counts.
I really enjoyed this episode! It was well-written, well-acted, and didn’t stoop to preaching or hitting us over the head with any message or anything. (Of course, I had to receive a painful brain implant in order to feel that way too…)
In the second scene of Act 4, Seven tells Iko that when she received her "occipital" implant, it was very painful. I think she meant to say, optical implant, not occipital. "Occipital" refers to the lower posterior, or rear of the skull, not the front, where her optical implant is.
Joleg managed to smuggle a transporter suppression field generator onto the ship by being someone’s b*tch
After Joleg takes Yedick hostage in Act 5, Tuvok tells the bridge to lock onto Yedick, but Janeway tells him transporters are offline. Again, ALL the transporters are offline, including the ones in the shuttles?
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By Chris Booton (Cbooton) on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 11:00 pm:
They showed this one on space today and before it they had a "the following show contains scenes of voilence viwer discression is advised!" . I cant believe that one! I mean this episode is no more voilent than any other. And they showed "Sacrifice of angles" right before and it's just as voilent and there was no warning.
"However, impulse does make sense here. Since they are meeting up with an alien ship while heading in the opposite direction, they should go slow. They are also delaying the executions, which is probably intentional." PaulG
I would think the crew of Voyager would want to rid themselves of these passengers ASAP, so what makes sense is for them to be meeting the other ship halfway at warp speed. If they wanted to delay the executions why not take the time to help repair the damged ship while waiting for the other?
"Bzzt! Nope. Sorry Rene, personality disorders are very real." Ghel
I'm pretty sure Rene was joking when he posted that.
"To me, this sounds like the problems black men deal with, and instead of keeping this guy somewhat innocent, the producers made him as bad as the society thought he was, which makes it sound like the producers are saying that as long as the guy is black, he's probably a criminal." Will
I sort of had the same feeling, but this ep didn't fool me for a second. Neelix discovers that this race makes up 10% Nygean society and over 80% of their penal population. African-Americans make up about 12.5% of the US and 49% of the penal system. Just some quick figures.
"Like it or not, some races are identifiable by their stereotypes, whether they be black, white, Asian or gay." Not Rene
Homosexuals are not a race. If you were trying to be funny in making them one I obviously didn't get the joke.
"Now a ship is burning in space, with a sustained flame!" Luigi Novi
There are many substances that don't need oxygen, or create their own, when they burn. Although I doubt space vessils use it, OTTO fuel, which is what torpedos burn, is an example.
"for some reason, the Nygean guards carry Starfleet phasers and phaser rifles." also LN
When Voyager beamed them over, their weapons were removed during transport. It's probably safer that the guards use SF weapons anyway since they can be deactivated by the computer, which was only utilized once in Trek IIRC. The only nit I noticed not mentioned was when the phaser rifles were fired they had a blue beam.
This ep gave me flashbacks to many a paper I wrote in college. Thanks for the synopsis on the juror experience Luigi. There aren't many Voyager boards you've posted on. Why is that?
inblackestnight: "This ep gave me flashbacks to many a paper I wrote in college. Thanks for the synopsis on the juror experience Luigi. There aren't many Voyager boards you've posted on. Why is that?"
1. By the time Voyager got back to Earth for Luigi to find out about things, he was long dead...
2. Luigi got tired of typing the same red letter gag in every episode because some Voyager nits never were corrected throughout the series.
3. Luigi was involved in too many political musing scandels during that time.
4. Luigi's HD TV couldn't display tv shows of such low picture quality.
5. Luigi was imprisoned by the Bush Administration because Bush thought B&B meant "Bush Bashing"
I only discovered Nitcentral in about March or April 2001, when only seven episodes were left to premiere. I've obviously participated in some after-the-premiere discussions on many episode boards since then, but obviously, the Trek series saw more traffic here.
Ironically, if you look through my first posts, beginning with Q2, you'll see not only a number of posts, but complaints that they were too long or verbose, and that at times, I was overly combative in debates with others (something I've tried to change). My exchanges on the Friendship One board represent, IIRC, my first major ongoing debate, which could read as a flame war. In other words, not posting enough isn't something I've really been accused of. 
Why was everyone surprised regarding the refusal for leniency from the victim's family? Did everyone expect the family to "forgive and forget" about the murder done by the criminal just because he said, "I'm a changed man"?
By inblackestnight on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 8:19 pm
There are many substances that don't need oxygen, or create their own, when they burn. Although I doubt space vessils use it, OTTO fuel, which is what torpedos burn, is an example.
How do you know what Voyager's photon torpedos burn? You're not the one who was resupplying them with fresh torps every week were you? 
NITS
The other criminals were innocent, they were just executed because Seven ran out of Nanoprobes.
Granted, Neelix was annoyed with the one prisoner he got to know after his brother attacked Voyager, and Neelix didn't believe that the prisoner was sick with stomach pains etc, but Neelix still should have been open to the possiblity that the criminal did have a similar mental disorder; open to all of the criminals actually.
I've read a few news articles long back about someone who was sent to prison for life even though he didn't commit the crime. However, even though it was found out later that he didn't commit the crime, he wasn't released because he had "earned" an additional life sentence for trying to escape once. The point being that it's plausible that the criminal Neelix befriended was innocent of the murder, and that Neelix should be more understanding of the person's attempt to escape. I mean, they're going to execute him, what did he have to lose by trying to escape? If a soldier is captured, should he not try to escape? Is there some rule that a soldier can't give the person wrongly holding him a bloody nose in an attempt to return to his home, his freedom?
NANJAO
Many people mention that this is a message heavy episode. Am I assuming correctly that the "message" people are mentioning is that the death penalty can be applied to some people who don't deserve it? Or that the Death Penalty is barbaric? If so, I disagree that that is the main message of this episode.
I think it's that people can change, even the most hate filled people. This episode's title wasn't "wrongly accused," it is "Repentance." It's a story about how, regardless of how, someone can change.
PS. I don't deny that part of the episode does deal with the people wrongly accused can be executed, however, I think that was more of a side story than the main message of this episode.
What a stinking load of liberal garbage!!!!!
That's nice. Did you have anything to *contribute* to the discussion?
Well, the opinion he just expressed does indeed do that. Not every post has to be long in order for it to be considered a contribution. He expressed his opinion. That's enough, IMHO.
Was he talking about the previous comment, or the episode?
Ask him.
I'm talking about this "episode" It was a blatant anti-death penalty show for the bleeding-hearts to gush over!
I will agree with the death penalty on the day it becomes possible to resurrect people who have been executed by mistake regardless of how long ago the execution took place.