---Synopsis:
Voyager makes contact with a Klingon generational ship whose inhabitants come aboard Voyager, and whose captain believes that Paris and Torres' unborn daughter is a savior prophesized in Klingon mythology.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Richie Vest
the Nits: It was ok but did suffer, I think, from having too many cooks. The Disease thing seem tacked on.
1. The gagh that Neelix is holding in the mess hall does not appear to be alive.
2. How did Neelix just walk into Tuvok's quarters and why didn't he knock in the first place.
Happy Nitpicking!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ben Cohen on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 3:30 pm:

The premise sounds kinda like a mixture of TOS's "Day of the Dove", TNG's "The Emissary" and Frank Herbert's "Dune".

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Corey Hines on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 7:02 pm:

Only 2 shuttles in the shuttlebay, would have expected a few dozen.

Klingons that left 100 years earlier? shouldn't they look like the ones in TOS?

After they went to warp, for some reason they slowed to impulse.

Neelix helping Kim, wow, he's actually useful.

Blunted bat'leth, but they still have pointed tips.

How could they have gotten to the planet if they were travelling at impulse?

Hmm, a Klingon/Talaxian child, wonder what that would look like?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Lee Jamilkowski (Ljamilkowski) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 7:16 pm:

The current Voyager year is 2377. One hundred years earler is 2277. Star Trek: The Motion Picture occured in approximately 2271. So there is a six year gap in there in whic hthey could have left "ridged."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ben Cohen on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:11 pm:

Another great episode! Since this season began, I've really found myself looking forward to Star Trek again. WTW, give my compliments to TPTB.

Nits:

When B'ellana enters Sickbay for the second time in the episode, the doors close, but then bounce back a little.

Neelix refers to his new girlfriend as his little Par-Mach-ki (or however you spell it), only he pronounces it "Par Match ki". In DS9, it was pronounced "Par Moch Ki".

--

Next week: A rehash of the "Elite Force" plot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Chris Booton (Cbooton) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:16 pm:

Rehash? Man I wish my station would show previews . What happenes?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jason on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:17 pm:

The Klingon ship seems to be able to fire while cloaked. They report that the ship cloaked, and then Voyager rocks a couple times.

The Klingons make a pitiful showing for warriors when they invaded the bridge. They couldn't hit anyone except the poor yellowshirt behind tactical.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Shane Tourtellotte on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:23 pm:

The impulse shots this week were odder than usual. Two of them(with Voyager and the Klingon vessel in formation) showed moving stars, but without streaks. Was somebody trying lamely to convince us the ships were moving at warp without actually springing for a warp effect? And of course there were plenty of regular impulse shots. Geez, they could be going in the opposite direction and get home faster.

I was astonished that Voyager could transport over 200 Klingons in less than ten seconds. They had Kim try to justify it later, but it sounded weak.

Wouldn't Klingons refuse to eat dead gagh? I couldn't help noticing the ones in Neelix's bowl were quite motionless. (Voyager's replicators are naturally unable to reproduce the genuine, living article.)

The Doctor gladly gives Kim official permission to copulate with a Klingon he wants to stay away from, but doesn't bother to treat the lust chomp she left on his cheek? I'm beginning to feel glad I don't have him as my family physician.

And what the heck was the deal with Neelix?!? Never before have I seen him motivated by lust--his supposedly committed relationship with Kes was *chaste*, for crying out loud--but all of a sudden he's all but throwing himself at the nearest Klingon kleavage? I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the writers threw Neelix's character consistency out the window. And if I had been Tuvok, the least I would have done upon seeing the shambles of my room would be to say "Neelix, there is a multi-legged creature crawling on your shoulder." (For you young whippersnappers out there, that's a reference to Classic Trek.)

Janeway was negligently slow. The instant Tuvok reported phaser fire in the transporter room, I was saying "Shut down the transporters" to the TV screen. By the time Janeway followed my example, the Klingons had locked her out, and were beaming her crew to the planet. (And she is darned lucky they didn't beam her crew into space: they are unreconstructed Klingons, after all.)

"Sorry," says Janeway, "no mercy killings on my Bridge." No, just on the rest of your ship, as you demonstrated in "Death Wish". Hypocrite. (Okay, you can tell I didn't like this episode.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:25 pm:

::Klingons that left 100 years earlier? shouldn't they look like the ones in TOS?:: Corey Hines

The TOS Klingons were not full blood klingons from what I understand and no one knew it till later.

::Blunted bat'leth, but they still have pointed tips.:: Corey Hines

In this case, blunted just means "not sharp."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:27 pm:

Impulse at the beginning. Perhaps they wouldn't have been hit so easily if they'd been at warp.

A "Decades old" ship has enough firepower to take the shields down to 50%? Voyager's supposed to be a pretty state-of-the art ship (or it was when it was launched)

More Impulse as they cruise along with the Klingon ship. Actually, the stars are moving, but not streaking. Is this what impulse really is? This could mean that all those other "impulse" shots, are really just thrusters or something. Confusing.

And then Janeway tells them to go to warp as soon as the core breaches, which again shows that the stars moving but not streaking would indicate impulse.

You can see a few Klingon Doubles in the Shuttle bay shot, not very noticable, but if you pause it you can see. I spot at least three Klingons who have twins standing in the same position (facing different ways sometimes) in the shuttle bay.

Though they are supposed to be at warp, the stars outside Janeways ready room are perfectly still.

Neelix: "There are women and children down there. We can't just keep them locked up" isn't that a rather outdated way of thinking? Especially with Klingons? Why shouldn't the Women be locked up, but the Men should? We've seen that Klingon females can be every bit as boistrous as Male klingons.

I wonder if anyone has ever noticed this before: All Starfleet security officers stand with their arms locked behind their backs, with their sidearms stuck on their holsters sticking out. Anyone could grab their phaser before they could even react. Doesn't seem like a very good security measure.

Chalk up another poor-choice girlfriend for Harry Kim: Crazy Klingon Lady.

Am I the only one who has a really hard time taking anything in the show seriously when the stars are dead still outside them? It's really starting to get to me. It invalidates the whole show.

Ack! When B'elanna is making her personal log entry, the ships is just CREEPING along. Good lord that's slow.

Does anyone else think that the Klingon Captain sounds like Avery Brooks?

Those Bat'leths don't look "Blunted" to me. They look like dull blades. You could very easily kill someone with those.

I swear I am writing this before the episode is over: I'll be just about everything I have that B'elanna's baby will be able to fight off this disease, or produce an anti-body or something. We'll see if I'm right.

Are you telling me you don't need any kind of codes to use the Transporters? Eesh.

Ooh! I was right! Go me!

The mere thought of Neelix and the Klingon woman will haunt me for the rest of my days.

Even though it was pretty predictable, I thought this was a good episode, especially as a partial follow-up to Lineage.

Impulse (or is it thrusters?) at the end.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:32 pm:

::I was astonished that Voyager could transport over 200 Klingons in less than ten seconds. They had Kim try to justify it later, but it sounded weak.:: Shane Tourtellotte

Go study about the transporter anular confinement beam. Widening the area the transport beam covers is what makes it possible, it is just more dangerous.

::"Sorry," says Janeway, "no mercy killings on my Bridge." No, just on the rest of your ship, as you demonstrated in "Death Wish". Hypocrite. (Okay, you can tell I didn't like this episode.):: Shane Tourtellotte

Sorry, that analogy isn't quite correct. Janeway didn't "allow" Quinn to be killed. She wouldn't have allowed it if she could have stopped it. Q himself is the one who got Quinn the substance that he committed suicide with.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By PaulG on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:38 pm:

A blah episode IMHO. I give it a C. When they start borrowing plots from TNG eps without even changing the aliens, that is not a good sign.

Good to see that evasive manuevers also do not work against century-old warships.

With this disease, I find it odd that Kalor's great grandfather would live long enough to give him the batleth. There are possible explanations of course.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spockania on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 8:48 pm:

I can just barely buy the klingons seizing the transporters, after all Kim was seconds from using it. But theres a forcefield around the bridge, and they don't bother to erect a forcefield around engineering too? And how come the Klingons beam off everyone but the bridge staff but miss Tuvok and his guys dashing down the corridor?

It's official- Neelix is THE roommate from Hell. If I were Tuvok I'd neckpinch him...

I too thought that Klingon ship was too powerful. The klingon bridge set was also a reused set from DS9, and I thought it looked too new and modern.

I'm not sure why all the Voyager staff has to double up. I thought the ship was shorthanded with a crew of 150. Considering the Klingons were in family groups, it should be possible for Tuvok at least to get his own room.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Shane Tourtellotte on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 9:01 pm:

::Go study about the transporter anular confinement beam. Widening the area the transport beam covers is what makes it possible, it is just more dangerous.::Jwb52z

'Annular'. And how can you configure the transporter to beam off all the Klingons, but none of the loose items lying around the ship, or for that matter large pieces of the ship itself? And how do you manage this in less than ten seconds? This wasn't in my copy of the ST-TNG Tech Manual.

::Sorry, that analogy isn't quite correct. Janeway didn't "allow" Quinn to be killed. She wouldn't have allowed it if she could have stopped it. Q himself is the one who got Quinn the substance that he committed suicide with.::Jwb52z

She could have stopped it by refusing Quinn asylum, by letting Q take him back to the Continuum. (Do recall that Q abetting Quinn's death was a surprise development, not what Janeway anticipated.) Her action meant that Quinn would die--and she knew it. That carries some pretty heavy moral responsibility, IMO.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By PaulG on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 9:16 pm:

:The TOS Klingons were not full blood klingons from what I understand and no one knew it till later. :: Jwb52z

Please name the episode where this is stated. The only mention of this I know of was in a piece of fan fiction which is certainly not official.

As to the transporter, can anyone come up with a similar example where 200+ lifeforms were transported from a non-Federation ship to a Federation ship in 5-10 seconds? Or can anyone provide an example where this couldn't be done? I agree that this mass transport seemed unusual.

In any case, Janeway sure took her time making the decision. When the ship is going to explode in 30 seconds, her long delay was inappropriate for someone who is supposed to make quick decisions in crunch time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Aaron Dotter on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 9:50 pm:

Where did they get the gagh? Or did Neelix pull that trick that B'Elanna dreamed up in Barge of the Dead? I should think that the klingons would have complained about it. Or since it should be alive did some get beamed over? I guess they've been raising it all these years!(which they could be.)

They beamed the klingons to a shuttlebay. It sure didn't look like the shuttlebay at the aft of Voyager. This must be the mysterious "Shuttlebay 2" that we hear about. But where is it? I can see no obvious place where it could be.

Did they ever say where the virus came from? Did they pick it up along their trip? Have they always had it since they started? Or was it due to the inbreeding?

It was a good thing that the Klingon leader had his bat'leth on him when he was beamed out(which is possible though it seems odd)

I thought the fight scene on the bridge at the end was very good.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Aaron Dotter on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 9:53 pm:

The ship could not fire while cloaked- they decloaked, fired, then cloaked again. I should think though that the Voyager crew should have know that they might do that- they seemed surprised.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:16 pm:

I find it hard to believe that the sensors couldn't detect a 100 year old (estimate) cloak.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By D.W. March on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:41 pm:

Spornan- good catch about the Klingon Captain. I also thought he sounded like Avery Brooks, especially when he was giving his speech to his crew on their ship.

I also noticed the new looking monitors on the Klingon ship. They were a lot fancier than the monitors we saw on Kruge's ship in ST:III and IV and we got up close and personal with those ones...

The term D7 was always semi-canonical but has now become canon. Nice touch.

I agree with everyone who thought the transporting was way too fast. But in response to PaulG's question, I recall the transporting of the El-Aurian refugees in Generations being pretty fast too.

There was some nice continuity in this episode with references to Khitomer, the Borg, the Hirogen, et cetera. Also, the reference to authorization forms for sexual relations was hilarious. But is the doctor psychic? He didn't know Harry was coming to sickbay but he had a form ready for him!

When the Klingon captain beams aboard, Captain Janeway walks with him all the way up to the bridge. Why not just have B'ellana meet them in the transporter room?

The Klingon captain sees B'ellana and knows she's pregnant. How does that work exactly?

WIVRON- the Klingons blow up their own ship and beam to another one. Where have we seen that before? (Capt. Kirk is rolling in his grave!)

That Gagh didn't look very fresh.

I think I know why Neelix is behaving so strangely throughout the episode and it's very subtle. He's DRUNK! He's been swilling bloodwine with all those Klingons in the mess hall! Just look at how he talks to Tuvok when he decides to bunk with him. Neelix is obviously three sheets to the wind!

B'ellana's escape from engineering was innovative but the Klingons were already draining ship resources and she decides to do a site-to-site transport!

WIVRON- B'ellana's line about "They think I'm something I'm not," referring to her status as a religious icon. And at the end, she accepts her role as such. Hmmm, where have we seen that before? (Capt. Sisko rolls in his grave)

When the Klingon captain suggested reviewing the scrolls I laughed out loud. He wants to nitpick them!

At one point, the Klingon captain says "There may be violence." You don't say?

When they mentioned Klingon exaggeration being a custom I wondered if they had been reading the Chief's DS9 guide... remember the part about Kor's "confrontation" on Organia with Kirk!

Finally, those Klingon outfits look a lot more comfortable than they did on DS9 or TNG. A lot less leather and metal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:48 pm:

D.W. March: It was kind of hard to tell in this episode, but it looked like B'elanna was showing a bit. When she collapsed on the couch after beaming into her quarters, her stomach seemed to be out a little further than usual. Perhaps the Captain noticed that.

Of course, if she WASN'T pregnant, that would been kinda rude. But hey, that's Klingon for ya.

:p

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:01 pm:

::'Annular'. And how can you configure the transporter to beam off all the Klingons, but none of the loose items lying around the ship, or for that matter large pieces of the ship itself? And how do you manage this in less than ten seconds? This wasn't in my copy of the ST-TNG Tech Manual.:: Shane Tourtellotte

You can scan and isolate something by its life signs using the sensors and then lock on to those specific targets.

::She could have stopped it by refusing Quinn asylum, by letting Q take him back to the Continuum. (Do recall that Q abetting Quinn's death was a surprise development, not what Janeway anticipated.) Her action meant that Quinn would die--and she knew it. That carries some pretty heavy moral responsibility, IMO.:: Shane Tourtellotte

Quinn would have most likely found a way to end his life no matter what. It wasn't a mercy killing any way you look at it. It was assisted suicide. They are different things.

::Please name the episode where this is stated. The only mention of this I know of was in a piece of fan fiction which is certainly not official.:: PaulG

I thought I remembered reading this in an interview with one of the creators several years ago. If they say it, according to Phil, it is correct.

::Did they ever say where the virus came from? Did they pick it up along their trip? Have they always had it since they started? Or was it due to the inbreeding?:: Aaron Dotter

A virus can't be caused by inbreeding. Only genetic anomalies that are treated as diseases can occur.

::I find it hard to believe that the sensors couldn't detect a 100 year old (estimate) cloak.:: Spornan

I figured that the information for detecting something that old would have been not in normal everyday use in the computers. It's not every day that you end up finding a 100 year old cloaked Klingon vessel. The metaphasic scan was a good idea.

::Also, the reference to authorization forms for sexual relations was hilarious. But is the doctor psychic? He didn't know Harry was coming to sickbay but he had a form ready for him!:: D.W. March

It is probably something that can be brought up on the computer PADD itself like you can access a letter or form of some type through a computer when you have a template ready.

::The Klingon captain sees B'ellana and knows she's pregnant. How does that work exactly?:: D.W. March

I kinda thought she LOOKED pregnant and was starting to show, but maybe that's because I've been around several pregnancies. It could also be a hormone/pheromone type situation since the Klingon sense of smell is very acute.

::B'ellana's escape from engineering was innovative but the Klingons were already draining ship resources and she decides to do a site-to-site transport!:: D.W. March

The problem I had with that was that I thought that transporting was possibly harmful to unborn babies and was only done in an emergency like when Ensign Wildman was giving birth to Naomi.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By TomM on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:03 pm:

The TOS Klingons were not full blood klingons from what I understand and no one knew it till later. Jwb52z

That can't be the answer. According to the Doctor Klingon traits, including the brow ridges are dominant for many generations, and the "big three" Klingons who fought against Kirk in TOS (Kor, Kang, and Koloth) turned up in DS9 as ridged and "pure-blooded" as any "modern" Klingon

I find it hard to believe that the sensors couldn't detect a 100 year old (estimate) cloak. Spornan

Indeed. In fact this was stated by no less an authority than Mr. Spock, himself, in his conversation with the Romulan Commander on this very subject: "Military secrets are the most fleeting of all."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Lea Frost on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 11:11 pm:

Also, the reference to authorization forms for sexual relations was hilarious.

Poor Harry -- the only person in the galaxy affected by Kirk's Law... ;-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Tricorder on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:28 am:

One thing that hasn't been touched on yet: The Klingons too quickly became trusting of humans and were willing to interact with them as equals. This is a stretch considering they thought the Federation as the enemy all their lives, and humans as weak and dishonorable. I thought there would have some incidents of the Klingons becoming violent toward the Voyager crew.

As others have mentioned, I also wondered why Torres just didn't meet the Klingon commander in the transporter room. And yes, the Klingon commander sounded a bit like Avery Brooks to me as well. (That's a compliment, by the way.)

I confused by those who say Voyager couldn't detect the cloaked ship. They did detect it once they adjusted their scans to pick it up. It appeared to me that the cloak was not as sophisticated as later models, and so Chatokay was able to think of a way to find the ship.

I found the Klingon prophecy about their savior being above illness a dead giveaway to the Doctor finding a cure. I was surprised, though, that the prophecy about the baby's father being a brave warrior also came true during the show. We saw this not during the fight scene, but in Paris' actions when the Klingons tried to take over the bridge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Tricorder on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:35 am:

"I confused by those who say Voyager couldn't detect the cloaked ship."

I appears to have a syntax problem in my previous post. ;-)

By the way, I just realized, Seven had what, one line, during the entire hour. And I didn't even notice. That's strange, because some interaction between her and the Klingons could have been pretty interesting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John Lang on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 1:48 am:

Hmm...if the Klingons thought the child was a "messiah", then they should've sung,
"We 200 Klingons of Q'Onos are....bearing gifts we traverse afar....."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Brian Lombard on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 5:14 am:

Ok, for those of you scratching your heads asking "where have I seen that guy before?"

Kohlar was played by Wren T. Brown. He previously appeared in TNG's "Manhunt," as the shuttle pilot ferrying Lwaxana Troi.

T'Greth (the guy Paris fought in combat) was played by Sherman Howard. He had a more memorable role in TNG's "Suddenly Human" as Captain Endar, the Talarian/Tarellian father of a human boy Picard took under his wing. He also appeared in DS9's "Shakaar."

Morak was played by Paul Eckstein. He played the new Alpha-Hirogen in VOY's "Flesh and Blood." He was also a Jem Hadar in two separate DS9 episodes, "Rocks and Shoals," and "The Dogs of War."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By AI Fix on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 6:43 am:

Here's another case of actors choosing their own pronunciations of an unfamiliar word. When the Klingon captain first talks about the virus, he calls it the "neh-rott". Yet when the guy who battled Paris mentions it, he pronounces it "neh-ratt". My assumption is that the script read "nerat", which could be open to either pronunciation. I doubt a closely linked, multi-generational ship would produce dialectic differences.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Duane Parsons on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 7:02 am:

Yes, I thought the Klingon captain sounded like Avery Brooks. Kept looking at him to see if Avery snuck in under Klingon make up.
The D7 type retired decades ago. How long ago was the attack on DS9 by the Klingons? The station defenses were able to destroy a D7 during the attack. Maybe Tom was just out of the net on the penal colony.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Shane Tourtellotte on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 9:11 am:

To D.W. March: I think DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations" mentioned the D7 class of Klingon cruiser.

[sigh] And back to the field of challenge.

::You can scan and isolate something by its life signs using the sensors and then lock on to those specific targets.:: Jwb52z

You're missing my point. Two hundred Klingons. Massively expanded annular confinement beam. Less than ten seconds. Not enough time for the task, unless you credit Voyager's technology with such incredible power that essentially anything becomes possible, and the show dissolves into fantasy. (Of course, some would say that has happened already.)

::Quinn would have most likely found a way to end his life no matter what. It wasn't a mercy killing any way you look at it. It was assisted suicide. They are different things.:: Jwb52z

With a gaggle of Qs working to prevent him, I don't think Quinn's fate would be nearly as certain as you claim. Casually saying "I couldn't prevent it" smacks of moral abdication. Janeway had two choices: one meant Quinn would live, one meant he would die. She chose death. Looked at that way, "mercy killing" and "assisted suicide" are not so much different things as different names.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Brian Lombard on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 9:39 am:

To add something to this transporter annular confinement thingy discussion, back in TNG's "Descent, Part II," most of the 1,000 crewmembers had beamed down to the planet to search for Lore and Data. (It was never established as to how many, but Picard referred to those left behind as a skeleton crew.) Anyhoo, when Beverly started beaming them up, the Asian transporter operator got most of them aboard, but 47 (yes a 47) were left behind. They needed 10 more seconds to get those 47 people aboard.

Take this example and do with it what you will.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ghel on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 9:41 am:

This episode ROCKS!

I loved Nelix's reaction to the Klingon woman, and the scene where Nelix locks Tuvok out of his own quarters is priceless! If Tuvok were human, he would have been swinging at Nelix!

I really didn't see anything inconsistant about Nelix behavior. Just because he had a "soft" girlfriend a few years back doesn't mean he cannot be turned on by a rough and tumble woman.

Janeway's reaction time was WAY too slow.

When the Klingons boarded the bridge, I was also waiting for Janeway to lock down the computers like Riker did when the Ferengi boarded the E-D. It would make it a lot harder for the Klingons to go anywhere if they won the phaser fight!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Wannabe Trek Writer on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 10:42 am:

Somebody proposed the interesting theory that the Klingon captain may have known Torres was pregnant because of pheromones she may have been emitting. Except in TNG, when one of the Duras sisters was pregnant, neither Worf nor future-Alexander detected it (or at the very least mentioned it). So I suspect that Torres is simply "showing." Hard to tell through the grainy reception on my TV.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Anonymous on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 10:47 am:

The original Klingons from the classic Trek (Kor, Koloth) were still around in DS9 time, so why weren't there any elder Klingons. Even just a few.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 11:00 am:

::That can't be the answer. According to the Doctor Klingon traits, including the brow ridges are dominant for many generations, and the "big three" Klingons who fought against Kirk in TOS (Kor, Kang, and Koloth) turned up in DS9 as ridged and "pure-blooded" as any "modern" Klingon:: TomM

Although it is inconsistent, I do remember the creators at one time saying this in an interview somewhere.

::You're missing my point. Two hundred Klingons. Massively expanded annular confinement beam. Less than ten seconds. Not enough time for the task, unless you credit Voyager's technology with such incredible power that essentially anything becomes possible, and the show dissolves into fantasy. (Of course, some would say that has happened already.):: Shane Tourtellotte

It IS fantasy. Also, yes I do credit the technology with being able to do this.

::Casually saying "I couldn't prevent it" smacks of moral abdication.:: Shane Tourtellotte

With no power to act forcefully enough to accomplish a goal, no responsibility can be laid at the feet of the powerless. Janeway's choice was really moot in all practicality.

::Somebody proposed the interesting theory that the Klingon captain may have known Torres was pregnant because of pheromones she may have been emitting. Except in TNG, when one of the Duras sisters was pregnant, neither Worf nor future-Alexander detected it (or at the very least mentioned it). So I suspect that Torres is simply "showing." Hard to tell through the grainy reception on my TV.:: WTW

Not that Klingons would really care about etiquette, but it seems that, unless it was really an important situation, asking a woman if she is pregnant, when she could merely be overweight, or just if you have no real reason to be asking, is bad form.

By Amos on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 11:19 am:

My thought on why the Klingons didn't complain about dead/replicated Gagh is that you have to imagine they have been eating replicated food or something for the last 100 years from 100 year old replicators. What ever Voyager's replicators or Neelix's cooking provided them would be a decent change for them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 11:30 am:

::It IS fantasy::

Jwb, that's why some people may say that you're a little overzealous in your defense of Voyager. What's the point of nitpicking if you eventually just say, "Well it's just a fantasy show. They can do whatever they want?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Mandy on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:09 pm:

Poor Harry. Let's see:

A hologram.
A Borg.
The wrong twin.
A woman from a xenophobic species.
The dearly departed.
A terrorist.
A Klingon.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:41 pm:

"when Beverly started beaming them up, the Asian transporter operator got most of them aboard, but 47 (yes a 47) were left behind. They needed 10 more seconds to get those 47 people aboard."

BUT....The Enterprise had more than one transporter room.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Dustin Westfall on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:48 pm:

I liked these last few eps. It seems that, with the end near, the creators have finally figured out how to make this show work. Too bad it didn't happen years ago.

>::That can't be the answer. According to the Doctor Klingon traits, including the brow ridges are dominant for many generations, and the "big three" Klingons who fought against Kirk in TOS(Kor, Kang, and Koloth) turned up in DS9 as ridged and "pure-blooded" as any "modern" Klingon:: TomM

>Although it is inconsistent, I do remember the creators at one time saying this in an interview somewhere. - Jwb52z

Since when are interviews canon? The only canon reference that I know of was Worf's from Trials and Tribleations(sic?), which was merely an avoidance, not an answer. I have heard that 1/2 Human theory before, usually in the novels, but I know of no reference at all in the shows themselves.

>::You're missing my point. Two hundred Klingons. Massively expanded annular confinement beam. Less than ten seconds. Not enough time for the task, unless you credit Voyager's technology with such incredible power that essentially anything becomes possible, and the show dissolves into fantasy. (Of course, some would say that has happened already.):: Shane Tourtellotte

>It IS fantasy. Also, yes I do credit the technology with being able to do this. -Jwb52z

No, it's not. It is Science Fiction. Fantasy, IMHO, is a literary style that either ignores or rewrites the basic nature of reality in order to create the environment (hence, dragons that fly on far too small wings and breathe fire, etc.). Science Fiction, instead, works within our current understanding of reality, then augmenting it with new concepts and ideas in order to create the environment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By PaulG on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 12:49 pm:

Jwb52z: If you can actually get the details of this Klingon interview (who said it, when, in what context, if they were serious, etc.) then you have a point. But "some guy in some interview somewhere at some time" is too vague to be useful.

BTW, I would agree with Shane's analysis on "Death Wish". Janeway knew very well that finding in Quinn's favor would almost guarantee his eventual suicide even with her precautions. She also knew that the Continuum had kept Quinn alive against his will for centuries and almost certainly could continue to do so. She had a choice. She had the power. And she picked the first choice. Granted, the Q issue is complex but she did most certainly grant death to a person who wanted it.

Back to crapola:

From my view, Torres is obviously pregnant in that first scene. Though the black on the uniform could make it hard to see in some views, she has the tell-tale bulge.

Lombard: Thanks for the example. However, I am not sure it helps. The crew would have their communicators to lock onto so that makes the task a lot easier. I do not remember the details of that situation so I don't know if they were beamed up in shifts or all at once. I would also assume that the Enterprise (heavy cruiser flagship) would have much greater transporter capacity than Voyager (basically an armed scout).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By TomM on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 1:18 pm:

Poor Harry. Let's see:

A hologram.
A Borg.
The wrong twin.
A woman from a xenophobic species.
The dearly departed.
A terrorist.
A Klingon..... Mandy

You're forgetting his three wives from the "vampire" species.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 1:46 pm:

::Jwb, that's why some people may say that you're a little overzealous in your defense of Voyager. What's the point of nitpicking if you eventually just say, "Well it's just a fantasy show. They can do whatever they want?":: Spornan

I never forget that it is fantasy, and that's partly why I defend it, besides the fact that I think it is good fantasy.

::Since when are interviews canon?:: Dustin Westfall

Since the creators' words are supposed to be canon, it would stand to reason that an interview of their words and responses about Star Trek would be canon since they are saying them.

::No, it's not. It is Science Fiction. Fantasy, IMHO, is a literary style that either ignores or rewrites the basic nature of reality in order to create the environment (hence, dragons that fly on far too small wings and breathe fire, etc.). Science Fiction, instead, works within our current understanding of reality, then augmenting it with new concepts and ideas in order to create the environment.:: Dustin Westfall

Your distinction is a bit too high brow for this discussion. Science fiction is a fantasy in that a fantasy is also fiction.

::Janeway knew very well that finding in Quinn's favor would almost guarantee his eventual suicide even with her precautions.:: PaulG

A good chance does not mean absolutely. She could have possibly encouraged him to stay alive now that his life would be finite from that point on. Her explanation of how humanity could be a new world to explore was what I thought might make him want to live.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By The Undesirable Element on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 2:42 pm:

Okay, I'm on an ANTI-NIT kick today.

>> The Janeway Mercy killing thing.
It's just one line.
"No mercy killings on my ship." sounds better than,
"No mercy killings on my ship unless you happen to be an omnipotent being from an advanced continuum."

>> The Warp thing.
Who gives a @#$!?????

>> The Sci-Fi vs. Fantasy thing...
The Original Series was more fantasy than sci-fi. Remember the water that made them speed up (Wink of an Eye), or the flowers that gave them superpowers (Plato's Stepchildren), or the Space Hippies (The Way to Eden), or the transporter hiccup that creates two Kirks (The Enemy Within), or the Galactic Barrier (Where No Man Has Gone Before, or a prison planet at the center of the galaxy (Star Trek V)
Star Trek is Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

>> The D7's too powerful thing.
They've spent 100 years in the Delta Quadrant. They've probably obtained some new torps.

ONE NIT OF MY OWN:
They say that the planet that they are approaching is a lot like Quo'nos (Kronos) but it's all pretty and blue and hospitable looking. Quo'nos is red and hot, with practically no water.

COMMENTS:
Tuvok and Neelix never fail as a combo. Whether it's "Rise" or "Haunting of Deck Twelve" or this episode, they always have me in histerics.

Neelix is the fourth person to sing that particular drinking song. (Worf was first, Doc was second, Seven was third) I think Neelix needs to stick to cooking. Leave the singing to Doc.

I think this is the first time that a woman has put the moves on Harry and Harry had absolutely NO interest.

Liked this episode. Excellent humor. Kind of a predictable plot, but the character interaction made it all good.

Neelix and the Klingon female doing the snu snu!
EEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!

That's all from me.

See ya later
TUE

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Dustin Westfall on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 3:04 pm:

::Since when are interviews canon?:: Dustin Westfall

Since the creators' words are supposed to be canon, it would stand to reason that an interview of their words and responses about Star Trek would be canon since they are saying them.
-Jwb52z

I think you are either misremebering or misinterpreting the first rule of nitpicking. The latest form of the rule I have is (from the Rules of Conduct on site):

The First Rule of Nitpicking (Our Prime Directive, if you will) is:

All nits picked shall derive from sources the creators considers canonical.

Now, would the creators consider an interview canonical? I think not. Since the creators have little to no control over what parts of the interview are used and what parts aren't used, let alone in what order or context they are put in, I doubt the creators would claim the contents of the interview to be absolute.

*SPOILER* Look at Berman's semi-retraction of a recent interview where he said that the Romulans would be the enemies in STX. He's now saying that they will be in the movie, but won't be the main villains (I think it will be more like the Duras sister's in Generations).*END SPOILER*

The contents of an interview can only be used to a point. Otherwise, we could pull just about any off-hand comment into the discussion, no matter how thought out.

::No, it's not. It is Science Fiction. Fantasy, IMHO, is a literary style that either ignores or rewrites the basic nature of reality in order to create the environment (hence, dragons that fly on far too small wings and breathe fire, etc.). Science Fiction, instead, works within our current understanding of reality, then augmenting it with new concepts and ideas in order to create the environment.:: Dustin Westfall

Your distinction is a bit too high brow for this discussion. Science fiction is a fantasy in that a fantasy is also fiction.
-Jwb52z

I wouldn't call it high brow. We are simply using different definitions of fantasy. What I (And, from what I can tell, Shane and Spornan) meant by fantasy was basically that the normal rules of the universe no longer apply, and the Star Trek has it's own set of arbitrary rules that supercede any interpretation we can make of them. You seem to be using fantasy to mean that it is not real. However, just because something is not real doesn't mean that there is no reason to care about presenting a consitent "reality". Otherwise, as Shane said, nitpicking becomes useless because the rules we use to intrepret the show are totally and irrevocably different from the rules that the show uses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Bob Brehm on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 3:47 pm:

Great line from Belanna: "Today is not a good day to die."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Adam Bomb on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 6:25 pm:

WAY TO GO NEELIX!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By ScottN on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 6:27 pm:

What is it with Klingon women, anyways? They go for the oddest types... First Quark, and now Neelix?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 6:32 pm:

::All nits picked shall derive from sources the creators considers canonical.:: Dustin Westfall

The thing is that if a book written by Jeri Taylor can be considered canonical, why can't the direct words of an answered question of one of the creators be considered canonical? They're both the words coming from the creators or people in charge.

::I wouldn't call it high brow.:: Dustin Westfall

I was trying to pay you a compliment. Anyway, what I meant was that you seemed to put alot more thought and knowledge into that part of your post than most people who post do when they submit nits.

::However, just because something is not real doesn't mean that there is no reason to care about presenting a consitent "reality".:: Dustin Westfall

Yes, I agree. I was just considering that the creators were making a purposeful inconsistency which is possible. Although, I don't know why they would want to do that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 6:34 pm:

ScottN, I would hope that Klingons are naturally intuitive enough to look beyond the surface to see the inner self of a person. Otherwise, no one would ever touch Neelix or Quark, unless the rumors are true.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Merat on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 7:19 pm:

Why are there no old Klingons? Well... because this nasty little Nerat virus kills them all off early.

Ok. I kind of thought that the Nerat virus was created and introduced into the Klingon population by the founders of this sect as a kind of population control. These Klingons live for a very long time, as is evidenced by Kang, Koloth, and Kor, so a form of population control is a good idea.

And as to the comment right above mine by Jwb52z: Consider the Klingon who challanges Paris to a duel. If he were intuitive enough to look beyond the surface to see the inner self of a person, he wouldn't be so upset that the Messiah is part human. I agree that some Klingons can see beyond the surface, ex. Worf and Martok, but not all.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Strgzr 47 on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 7:35 pm:

Maybe Klingons just have a bad thing about humans.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Merat on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 8:02 pm:

When they revealed the name of the virus that was killing off the Klingons, I thought that TPTB had it out for me. It wasn't until I was reading this board that I realized that it was the Nerat virus, not the Merat virus. It IS Nerat, right?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 8:12 pm:

"The thing is that if a book written by Jeri Taylor can be considered canonical, why can't the direct words of an answered question of one of the creators be considered canonical? They're both the words coming from the creators or people in charge."

Jwb, you are the most naive and annoying person I have ever met. Please tell me you're not that naive.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 8:14 pm:

Besides you mentioned an interview which explained old Klingons vs new Klingons which is obviously wrong....since it contradicts the show completely.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Dustin Westfall on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 8:56 pm:

::All nits picked shall derive from sources the creators considers canonical.:: Dustin Westfall

The thing is that if a book written by Jeri Taylor can be considered canonical, why can't the direct words of an answered question of one of the creators be considered canonical? They're both the words coming from the creators or people in charge.
-Jwb52z

Well, there are a couple of differences. In the case of the book, it was explicitly defined as canon. Also, an author has much more control of the content and context than an interview subject does.

::I wouldn't call it high brow.:: Dustin Westfall

I was trying to pay you a compliment. Anyway, what I meant was that you seemed to put alot more thought and knowledge into that part of your post than most people who post do when they submit nits.
-Jwb52z

I didn't take offense, though that isn't what I understood "high brow" to mean. Anyway, I appreciate the complement. I try to always think through my posts, as knee-jerk posts rarely convey the message properly.

::However, just because something is not real doesn't mean that there is no reason to care about presenting a consitent "reality".:: Dustin Westfall

Yes, I agree. I was just considering that the creators were making a purposeful inconsistency which is possible. Although, I don't know why they would want to do that.
-Jwb52z

Well, the creators are only human. Sometimes, they will write themselves into a corner, and the only way to get out is to either break the rules that they set down or discard the entire story. If they feel that the story is worth it, they would likely break the rules.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Wannabe Trek Writer on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 11:54 pm:

Jwb52z-

In either an interview or an online chat, someone asked Brannon why Seven wears spiked heels. His response is that the heels are a part of her cybernetic spinal structure, without them she would die (or something to that effect). I wouldn't consdier that canonical, either.

As for Jeri Taylor's books... I recall a memo from her once commenting about something in an episode that contradicted something in one of her novels (I think it was something about one of the character's histories). Even she didn't think it was a big deal, just something she thought she'd mention, it was changed. But I think the status of her books are the same as the Star Wars novels... they're canonical until they decide to contradict it, then the shows have ultimate authority.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 1:30 am:

::>> The Warp thing.
Who gives a @#$!????? ::

A lot of people. "Going home" is the basic premise of the show. What would Seaquest be like if every time they looked out a window, they were in the desert? What about a Superman show where he never actually flies?

The show is: We are trying to get home as fast as we can. But they aren't. They are basically sitting dead in the water.

Every time a character makes a "Stranded in the Delta Quandrant" speech, the fact that the stars are dead still in the window behind him completely invalidates the entire thing. I recall more episodes of TNG that had the stars streaking in a window then I do of Voyager.

It may seem like I'm just taking cheap shots at Voyager when I point out all the impulse, but I'm not. It's my main problem with the show. They just don't seem to care about putting on even a semi-realistic program.

Which brings me to the "Fantasy" debate.

Jwb, my point was this: If you brush any stretch of technology off as "fantasy", what's the point of nitpicking in the first place?

Tuvok missing a pip? Who cares, it's just a fantasy.

Boom mike visible in the turbolift? Who cares, it's just a fantasy.

More impulse while they complain about wanting to go home? Who cares, it's just a fantasy.

I think, Jwb, that you go overboard in your defense of Voyager. You are confusing Nitpicking with "insulting" or not liking the show. It makes me wonder why you are even here, if all you're looking to do is explain some pretty glaring nits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ghel on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 6:50 am:

I'm not sure I WANT to see a Voyager where every episode's entire sfx budget is spent on making the stars streak in the window.

Sorry, we can't show battles, planets, or exterior shots, but boy oh boy, look at those stars streak in the window. That was worth the money!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 7:01 am:

It should be part of the budget though! Before the show is made, it should have enough of a budget to create the effect that is THE BASIC PREMISE OF THE SHOW.

How would you feel if you watched Superman, and he could pick up the statue of liberty, jump through a magic wormhole to the land of "Where everything melts", and then morph into a sumo wrestler, but whenever he flew, you saw strings and cheap rear-projection backgrounds?

It's silly to have cool EXTRA special effects before you have the basic stuff already done.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Aaron Dotter on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 7:15 am:

I have to agree with Spornan that since the fact that they are supposed to be constantly moving is the whole foundation of the show, then they should have guaranteed that there would be money to show it. It would be like SeaQuest not having the money to show the ocean and having them sit in dock forever.

It appears that we have drifted away from nitpicking the episode though. Might I humbly suggest that we try to get back on track here?

I don't see how a blunted bat'leth would have been any better than a regular one in the fight, at least from Paris' POV. I should think that a Klingon, if he or she really wanted to, would still kill him with it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 7:17 am:

You whack someone in the windpipe with a dulled blade, I think it'd probably killed them, not that those Bat'Leths looked blunted/dulled in the first place.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Merat on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 7:40 am:

They were blunted/dulled. Like in Shakespear's time, fencing swords (unsure of name, rapier?) had their tips filed a bit so that you couldn't accidentally impale your sparing partner, but, like in Hamlet, it was difficult to tell without actually measuring the swords. Also, the leading edge of the blade was flat, not sharp as with most Bat'leths. True, you can still kill someone with the sword, but it's harder to do so accidentally.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By AI Fix on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 7:50 am:

I imagined a blunted bat'leth would be something with edges/points more like an artist's "French curve". That is, effective enough to give a good bruise, or break a rib if applied correctly, but not sharp enough to actually puncture the skin.

Re: the "premise"/budget/SFX stars thing. If I remember correctly, almost the entire first season (and many other episodes after that) of Lost in Space, they were stranded on a planet, not actually flying out among the stars. And we all know what a great show that was! (Yes, I did like the show, but it's still fun to make fun of sometimes!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Anonymous on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 8:04 am:

B'Elanna has clearly crossed the line between a rounded tummy and a pregnant tummy. There's no way you could mistake her for being anything but pregnant in that jumpsuit. (Unless, of course, you are a teenage boy).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ghel on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:44 pm:

"How would you feel if you watched Superman, and he could pick up the statue of liberty, jump through a magic wormhole to the land of "Where everything melts", and then morph into a sumo wrestler, but whenever he flew, you saw strings and cheap rear-projection backgrounds?"

This analogy is flawed. It should be more like "Since Superman can fly, that means we should never show him walking on the ground or it's a nit." Granted, Voyager's primary goal is to get home, but let's face it, if they never stopped to get fuel/resources etc. we would never have any show. "Captain's log, Voyager is still at warp. We've ignored the Klingon ship, and it's too slow to catch us. The end."
Granted, Voyager probably takes more detours than reality would necessitate, but to demand in every single episode that every single scene contain warp stars is kind of crazy. If you had a TV show about a trip across the country (you are trying to go home to California and right now you are in Maine) do you think the show would be more interesting if you are only seen behind the wheel doing 65, or do you think that it would be ok to show you stopping for gas or for lunch, or even *gasp* slept in a motel.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:56 pm:

::In either an interview or an online chat, someone asked Brannon why Seven wears spiked heels. His response is that the heels are a part of her cybernetic spinal structure, without them she would die (or something to that effect). I wouldn't consdier that canonical, either.:: WTW

Well, if the show doesn't contradict this idea, why can't it be considered canon since it is straight from one of TPTB's mouths.

::Jwb, my point was this: If you brush any stretch of technology off as "fantasy", what's the point of nitpicking in the first place?:: Spornan

It's fun, that's why.

::It makes me wonder why you are even here, if all you're looking to do is explain some pretty glaring nits.:: Spornan

It's fun, that's why.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:57 pm:

How about if you are never seen doing 65, stopping for gas or lunch or never seen slepping in a motel? Would that be realistic? That is what Voyager does.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:58 pm:

I am not convinced more than ever. JWZ is a Borg drone.

I wish this place had an "ignore user" function. He is so annoying.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:59 pm:

I am now convinced more than ever. JWZ is a Borg drone.

I wish this place had an "ignore user" function. He is so annoying.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 1:22 pm:

I am now convinced more than ever. JWZ is a Borg drone.

I wish this place had an "ignore user" function. He is so annoying.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 1:24 pm:

I am now convinced more than ever. JWZ is a Borg drone.

I wish this place had an "ignore user" function. He is so annoying.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By The Real Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 1:31 pm:

I see the Rene clone is more of a coward than I thought. I didn't make these last two posts.

It's okay though. He provides me with much entertainment. It's so funny how pathetic his life must be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 2:04 pm:

::I wish this place had an "ignore user" function. He is so annoying.:: One of the many called Rene

I'm sorry I annoy you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 2:06 pm:

::It's okay though. He provides me with much entertainment. It's so funny how pathetic his life must be.:: The Real Rene

Are you talking about me?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ghel on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 2:29 pm:

"::It's okay though. He provides me with much entertainment. It's so funny how pathetic his life must be.:: The Real Rene

Are you talking about me? "


I think Rene was talking about either Rene or Rene or something . . . :o)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 3:23 pm:

Yes I was talking about the Rene imposter

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 3:24 pm:

But anyway, from now on, I will just ignore this pathetic guy's posts.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Hans Thielman on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:12 am:

It does not make a lot of sense for a bunch of Klingons searching for a saviour for their species to travel 30,000 light years away from their homeworld, if they expect that saviour to be Klingon.

Why would the empire allow these Klingons to have a D7 ship in the first place?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jwb52z on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:24 am:

Hans, Klingons believe seriously in their prophecies and stories. If their stories told them to do something to find someone who was said to be important they wouldn't hesitate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jason on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:35 am:

As for letting them have a D7, it was the main ship of the empire when they left.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By PaulG on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 11:24 am:

::::In either an interview or an online chat, someone asked Brannon why Seven wears spiked heels.... I wouldn't consdier that canonical, either.:: WTW

::Well, if the show doesn't contradict this idea, why can't it be considered canon since it is straight from one of TPTB's mouths. :: Jwb52z

First, no one, including yourself, has yet to produce ANY details about this interview. For all we know, your memory could be faulty or you could be making this up. Second, it violates the First Law of Nitpicking (which I just learned - thanks, Dustin) which rules this web site. Third, even if we assume that everything you say is fact, there is nothing to prevent the writers from scrapping the idea if some other idea proves better. Whether you are talking about a movie, a TV show or a book, the writer's drafts, brainstorming and “teases” do not count. The final product is what counts.

::::Janeway knew very well that finding in Quinn's favor would almost guarantee his eventual suicide even with her precautions.:: PaulG

::A good chance does not mean absolutely. She could have possibly encouraged him to stay alive now that his life would be finite from that point on. Her explanation of how humanity could be a new world to explore was what I thought might make him want to live. :: Jwb52z

There are very few absolutes in life. However, in this case Janeway knows the overwhelming most likely results. Quinn has desired suicide for centuries. The Continuum has prevented it for centuries. Sure it is possible that Quinn could unexpectedly change his mind or that the Continuum could slip up and Quinn could kill himself despite their efforts, but the odds against it are huge. She knew what would most likely happen given her decision – as a judge, she cannot absolve that decision by focusing on what she believes unlikely (and I doubt she would).

By Adam Bomb on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 7:29 pm:

I wish the Klingons on TOS were as well developed as they are now. We only had three years of TOS and Klingons were too often the "bad guys of the week" there. Give me some gagh and a raktajino to go.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By MarkN on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 1:54 am:

A "Decades old" ship has enough firepower to take the shields down to 50%? Voyager's supposed to be a pretty state-of-the art ship (or it was when it was launched).
I wondered the same thing. That is, right after my eyes rolled upwards in disbelief that it happened.

In the ceiling shot looking down on the 200 Klingons in the cargo bay it sure didn't look like 200 Klingons. Obviously it wasn't, otherwise imagine how much it'd cost to make all those Klingons outfits and face masks. Of course they could've only had a few and multiplied them several times, like when you see a sports stadium crowd in a commercial, or the Colisseum scene in "Gladiator."

I once complained of Trek using time travel too much as a plot device. Well, this one reminded me of another, but it's not exclusively a Trek thing: there's a very tight time schedule to do something (transport people/things, find/defuse a bomb, find a person before they die, etc, etc.) with some sort of countdown, either on an electronic clock or spoken, and the people who should be rushed just take their time, maybe looking in each other's eyes, or debating what to do or whatever, and then they complete what they need to with only a second or two left!!! I'm soooo tired of that plot device cuz it's soooo tiresome! I know it's meant to cause tension and suspense but you know it's all gonna work out just fine and that everyone will be saved so why do it anymore? Lack of imagination, mostly.

Another thing I noticed in Trek is that phasers are fired only with arms held still, and not moved around from side to side and/or up and down, in close combat, as they naturally would be. I know it's easier to put in the phaser firing effect in a still shot than a moving one but they could still do it, especially now with today's SPFX advances!

WIVRON? What's that stand for?

And T'Greth, who challenged Paris, sounded a lot like JG Hertzler to me. Anyone else?

Tuvok and Neelix never fail as a combo.
They're Voyager's version of the Spock/McCoy exchanges.

What about a Superman show where he never actually flies?
Well, actually, he originally didn't. That's what the phrase, "Able to leap over tall buildings" refers to. If there are any Superman historians here, please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I thought it was.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Spornan on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 6:23 am:

Mark, I actually did point out that the cargo-bay scene with the "200" klingons did in fact use that multiplication type of shot. I counted at least three rather obvious klingons who had twins on the other side of the room.

Also, that shot looked more like 50 klingons than 200.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By AI Fix on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 8:09 am:

MarkN -- WIVRON "What Is Voyager Ripping Off Now?"

I think there's a list of glossary terms around here but I don't know where it is.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Will Spencer on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 9:28 am:

How did the Klingons know that Voyager was a Federation starship before they started firing on her? She looks nothing like Kirk's Enterprise, from her nose to her warp engines. I guess they must have scanned her hull, and 'read' United Federation Of Planets on it.
That said, it was so COOL seeing Voyager side by side or under attack by a classic D-7!
The crew is now outnumbered 200 to 150; the life support system would have to be working at over 200% just to keep the oxygen regulated.
How did the Klingon captain know Voyager could transport his entire crew, after he'd purposefully initiated self destruct? How risky is that?!
I think the producers should just fess up and tell us that that really was Avery Brooks as the captain! Think of the chaos this guy could do over the phone impersonating Brooks!
This could have been a two-parter, once the Klingons took over the ship, but that was already done ('Basics' 2-parter).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jason on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 9:55 am:

A "Decades old" ship has enough firepower to take the shields down to 50%? Voyager's supposed to be a pretty state-of-the art ship (or it was when it was launched).
I wondered the same thing. That is, right after my eyes rolled upwards in disbelief that it happened. --MarkN

The Federation ships from TOS era were insanely powerful when compared to TNG+ era. At www.spacebattles.com it was calculated that the Enterprise could withstand approximately 10 Death Star superlaser shots before its shields fell. The newer Federation ships have never displayed this level of protection. Since a D7 was supposed to be a match for the original Enterprise, its surprising that Voyager lasted as long as it did.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Rene on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 11:31 am:

Um....whatever.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ed Watson on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 1:05 pm:

I haven't read all the posts here, but I have two things to say about this ep.

1. It took seven years, but Neelix finally got a little ACTION!! Atta boy Neelix!

2. Did Mr. Paris luck out in that fight or what? How fortunate for him that the virus chose that moment to strike down the warrior. Did anybody NOT think that Klingon was about to turn him into a Tom-kabob?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Adam Bomb on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 4:07 pm:

I wanted to find out what Klingon ship model was used, but the shots were too brief. Was it the one from the movies, or one used in "Trials and Tribbleations?" (Why did they need a new Klingon ship model for that if they had the one used in the movies? Does the model used in the movies still exist?)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By MarkN on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 5:46 am:

Jason, why would the original Fed ships and their shields be much more powerful than the current ones? Advancing technologies become stronger and faster, so it only goes to believe that newer ships, shields and especially weapons would be stronger too. Look at our current navy. They could obliterate our navy of 200 years ago hands down, so, to me at least, it makes no sense to think that older technologies could be more powerful than newer ones. But I'll check out that site you linked later.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By constanze on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 11:56 am:

I wondered about something else: B'elannas child is only 1/4th klingon, but she has something in her blood to heal the klingons from the virus? If it is so special blood from a human/klingon hybrid, b'elanna herself should have it. That means, that although klingons have a double set of organs and backup emergency nervous system, human genes are much stronger against a virus!
I suppose it's possible, but it seems strange.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Túrin on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 7:14 pm:

It was stem cells from the unborn child that helped the doctor. B'ellana, being adult, doesn't have any stem cells.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By kingmatt on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 10:26 pm:

I am sure everyone is aware of this but, the impuse v warp star streaking thingemy is a nit in itself. The ships in star trek simply don't move fast enough for the stars to appear to streak. Maximum speed is what? 80 or so times the speed of light. At guess i'd say only stars considerably less than a light year away would move perceptably at all. The speed with which the background stars change would be dictated by a) their relative position to the ship and b) the speed at which the ship is moving, which i was guess would be in the region of 3 light years a day at maximum cruising speed. (and no, I don't own any of the tec manuls or anything, i'm just a smartarse) The only real nit is that you see voygers nacelles locked in position for impulse when they're travelling at warp. Although actually since the ship is not actually moving above light speed but warping the space around it to move forward i would think you shouldn't be able to have that sort of view out the window anyway. IE, you'd think the warp field would interfer with the view. This raises intesting questions. Like what is the ships relative speed when at warp. I would have to guess zero. But i'm moving off a tangent to my point, and my overall point is that I tend to think one should restrict nitpicking to continuity and systematic errors (and the staggering incompetence in simple matters of the crew, this applies in all 5 series not just voy)
Because if you look to closely at the science of star trek its doesn't work at all. IE, theres no way the impulse engines could actually move the ship, just where do they store all the antimatter they'd need etc. etc.

Well I enjoyed that rant

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Lolar Windrunner on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 1:20 am:

It is cerenkov radiation from accelerating interstellar dust particles through the warp threshold and not actual stars you see when travelling at warp speeds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By kingmatt on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 8:21 am:

Stuffed if i know. But if it is, i fail to see why it would glide past the window at low apparent speeds

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John A. Lang on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 11:16 pm:

MAJOR KUDOS! It was SO GOOD seeing the Klingon D-7 Battlecruiser back in action again!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John A. Lang on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 7:50 am:

Why didn't Neelix KEEP the Klingon-babe aboard Voyager as his mate? I sure would have.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By LUIGI NOVI on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:55 am:

Who says it's up to Neelix to decide? She's not a souvenir, she's a person. She obviously didn't want to stay, probably because she wanted to be with her people.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Will on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:40 am:

About the Klingon weapons taking Voyager's shields down to 50 % with just a couple shots;
these guys are *Klingons* that know they'll be on a long mission, so for them to just sit back and think to themselves, 'We're so well-armed that further improvements will never be necessary.' wouldn't be consistent with their warrior nature. If they didn't gain superior alien weaponry, then they simply improved upon their own in the century they've been away.
Unless, of course, as a 'generational ship' they've been asleep for decades, and the ship and weaponry are as antiquated as Janeway implies, but I was of the opinion that the Klingons hadn't been asleep, but had been born and lived on this ship for 100 years. They're weaponry was impressive, but Voyager made short work of their shields.

Where did Kalor keep that bat'leth? How did it beam over with him, when the main idea of beaming over 200 Klingons was to beam the *people* over and not their supplies, belongings, or weapons?

And speaking of the blunted bat'leths, all I can say, come-ON!!! There are, what, four or six protuberances that stick out, and the weapons are being swung and thrust downward with alot of force, and you tell me that couldn't crack a skull, or rip out an eye? A butter knife is blunt, but could do the same thing. Would someone just stand there as an attacker thrust four chair legs at them? No, because that wouldn't just hurt, but could cause a serious injury, so the same applies to these blunted weapons.

When the Klingons attempt to take over Voyager, Janeway erects a forcefield around the Bridge to prevent the crew from the Bridge from getting beamed off the ship. However, minuites later, the Klingons are able to beam ONTO the Bridge.


What happened to the forcefield?

So it traveled back in time and went to warp after being beamed off the runabout. That Dax sure is amazing with the Transporter.
The bat'leth that is given to Torres' baby at the end is the actually the "Sword of Kahless."
You can tell by the single long handle piece and the center blade point. The prop will be replaced by a traditional looking bat'leth in "Workforce."

Don't think this has been mentioned before and I'm not sure if I'm right, but just before Torres went in to talk to the Klingons for the first time and they were all sitting around chanting, it sounded like one of them was trying not to laugh.

It surely wouldn't cost much of the shows budget to make the stars streek. Even if it did they'd just have to be more careful about filming near windows. It's not just a matter of internal shots not having streaking stars they're forever using impulse exterior shots. Stock footage costs nothing to reuse just make more warp stock shots.

The part of the show where Harry us evading the Klingon woman is hilarious. I find unwanted sexual advances and rape especially funny. If it was a woman being pursued this way there would be outcry. Whilst I have had women grope me which doesn't bother me (whilst it would be seen as a bigger deal if it was men on women) but there is a difference between that and this Klingon woman's advances. Should the doc really gave brushed off the situation like that?

It's not the stock shots of the ship moving that cost a lot. It was turning so many regular shots in a regular set into special effects shots in order to have the start streak. As much as we remember Star Trek's effects each episode only has a few minutes of visual effects shots, and half of them are reused from before.

It wasn't until the final season of Enterprise that they started using HD projectors and screens outside the window so that they could do "stars streaking by" shots in-camera.

Thats why they should have had less windows on set, even if they didn't have stars streaking on set they could at least have had every exterior shot at warp to make 'inside impulse' a nit as opposed to them not trying.

That's probably why Babylon 5 had much fewer windows on ships and the station.

When have we ever seen Babylon 5 at warp?

It's like they weren't even trying to get home!

;-)

"The part of the show where Harry us evading the Klingon woman is hilarious. I find unwanted sexual advances and rape especially funny. If it was a woman being pursued this way there would be outcry."
Come on now, those scenes were pretty funny. Harry's virtue was in no real danger. Klingons are pushy, not rapists. What should the Doctor have done - scheduled an interspecies sensitivity seminar? Good gosh, if there had been a season 8 it might not surprise me too much if that came to pass.

That scene was played for laughs and I did laugh when I was younger BUT just ask yourself one question, what if it was a man pursuing a woman. We don't think twice about these scenes with men until someone asks you what if it was woman, a lot of scenes suddenly have a whole new light when you consider them this way. Here's what the doc should have done, called security to confine her to quarters for sexual harassment, assault, the offenses are endless. I'll admit this double standard doesn't bother me in real life but largely because the worst I've been affected by it is a bit of groping. Harry goes to the doc says "look I need your help she's pressuring me into sex" and the doc says "do it" Star Trek is about confronting these kinds of things not playing along with them.

I wouldn't exactly call it no real danger Worf and Dax were forever breaking ribs and having other terrible injuries after their sex. I believe the doc said something about a fight to the death being the other option again a slight danger issue.

Danny: Well, I see your point. The Doctor was a bit, well, glib about the whole thing. And you're right, ST is not about promoting these old ways of thinking, but exploring better ones. So I retract and yield the point. I guess in a real situation that could be more than just uncomfortable. Like the awkward scene in TOS "Day of the Dove" when Chekov, under alien influence, harrasses a Klingon woman with clear rape intentions.
Of course, I still think the interspecies seminar might be funny, for a spoof perhaps. After all, Klingon women, as we saw frequently in TNG, are very open about their advances, and probably expect to be repulsed more forcefully than Harry was willing to do.

Yeah the interspecies seminar would be pretty funny he did sort of touch on that before with Seven. Thing is most of the Voyager crew are useless at their jobs but the doc was one of the few who was pretty much uniformly good and had the balls to stand up for himself/his views. Like when Janeway was killing Tivix he said no.

So when he suddenly does a Janeway and fails his responsibility and says "women on men rape is ok and funny" it annoyed me. He's always been written better than that. As for more forcefully replulsed, a fight to the death was the only option that is a bit 0-60 lol.

Guess these Klingons left the Alpha Quadrant after the cure was found for the Augment Virus.