Yes! YES!!! I'm first on the agnostics board! Yippee! Yahoo! Um, yay.

Now what the hell do I say that I haven't said before on it? sigh

To make sure I get it right, Mark, are YOU an agnostic or an atheist or neither?

He is an agnostic.

Thanks. And you are--?

He's my evil twin.

Yes, Mike, I'm agnostic. That's what I was joking about above, meaning that I've expressed my views several times elsewhere and felt I really had nothing else to say about it, thus the gist of the joke. Besides, I figured everyone's tired of me talking about it, anyway.

Thanks, I was just sort of curious, as I couldn't remember if you were agnostic, atheistic, or something in between (?).

Well, agnostics sort of are between theists and atheists, since we neither confirm nor deny the existence of any dieties without proof either way first. Think of it as sort of like a tennis match with us, looking at one side, then the other, then the first and back again, but without the sunburn, sore butts or cricks in our necks from turning them back and forth so often.

Which am I? Well...
I am an atheist in that I don't believe there is an overseer god, nor in any god described in the Bible, Koran, Greek legends etc. I quite frankly don't see why one is more authoritive than any of the others. I don't dispense with the possibility that there is something "else", beyond our understanding (I'm not talking about aliens, although technically it would be alien.)

An atheist knows there is no God. Frankly, I don't have that much faith.

(In case anyone is curious I vacillate between unsure Catholic and guilt-ridden Agnostic.)

The Brights are coming!!!!

I just read this interesting piece on conscious-raising here. I originally read it at the top of James Randi's weekly Commentary here.

Although it hits the nail on the head when it talks about "springtime on Earth" and maps in the Southern Hemisphere, I disagree with the part about terms like "Catholic children" or "Muslim children." There are such children, because parents with strong religious beliefs raise their children in those beliefs, and if you ask those children about their beleifs, they'll likely claim the same beliefs. Sure, they might abandon them or change them in adulthood, but that doens't mean they can't be called Catholic or Muslim in childhood. The analogy of comparing them to "Leninist children" or "Tory children" is inaccurate, because parents do not tend to raise their children with their own political beliefs with the same institutional and systematic indoctrination that they do with religious views.

While they don't teach political beliefs with the same detication that they teach religion the biggest factor in determining where you will fall politicaly is what your parents support.

Because "Politic Beliefs" are created from lies, where as "Religious Beliefs" are created from truth.


It's more true than you might realize...

I'm not sure about that, Brian. Many people rebel, and develop political learnings far afield from their parents'. Are you citing some statistic or something?

Luigi,

Anecdotal evidence (for those that don't know, it is almost useless). My parents were Democrats. I was a Democrat until about 33. (My father is wicked conservative and watches Fox news and listens to Rush Limbaugh and stuff, but he was registered as a Democrat until last year.)

My siblings were (in some cases still are) Democrats. (At least one still is, but insanity is discussed on another board somewhere.)

The family has two non-religious Catholic parents. One seveth day adventist, one agnostic (sort of), one she can't be Cathoilic because she's a lesbian, and one in Seattle whose religion I don't know. I bet there is agreater chance he is a Democrat than a Catholic.

I appreciate you giving me an example by way of your life, William, but an anecdote doesn't seem like evidence to me.

It just seemed to me that Brian's statement of the "biggest factor" sounded like he was citing something empirical.

To counter with my own anecdote, when I worked for the Census Bureau for three months in 2000 (the first time I had a sit-down desk job), I listened to Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity myself on my walkman.

But that doesn't make me a Republican.

I'm not sure about that, Brian. Many people rebel, and develop political learnings far afield from their parents'. Are you citing some statistic or something?

It's a statistic that I remember reading in sociology but I wouldn't even know where to begin looking it up.

Sorry to get off topic for a sec, but I saw a bumper sticker yesterday... "Militant Agnostic: I don't know, and you don't either."
Just wanted to drop that off here before I forgot.

Just to be clear,

Anecdotal evidence is just barely above no evidence. Barely. Really barely. Reallly, Reallllllllly, barely. Reallllly, Reallllly, you get the idea.

I listen to NPR ("All the way on the left on your radio dial!"). If I believed it I'd be liberal. Luigi, if you were a dittohead it would be really weird if you were a Green. (Not impossible, just really weird. [Reallly, Realllly, Reallllllly,])

CR,

I don't know about that bumper sticker.

CR, with advanced apologies for interrupting on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:07 am: Sorry to get off topic for a sec, but I saw a bumper sticker yesterday... "Militant Agnostic: I don't know, and you don't either." Just wanted to drop that off here before I forgot.

That sounds like Strong agnosticism (also called "hard", "closed", "strict", or "permanent agnosticism"), which is the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities, and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

There is also weak agnosticism (also called "soft", "open", "empirical", or "temporal agnosticism"), which is the view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until evidence, if any, becomes available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, if there is evidence, we can find something out."

And then there is apathetic agnosticism, which is the view that no amount of debate can prove or disprove the existence of one or more deities, and if one or more deities exist, they do not appear to be concerned about the fate of humans. Therefore, their existence has little to no impact on personal human affairs and should be of little interest. An apathetic agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deity exists or not, and I don't care if any deity exists or not."