• Pt. 2: Ice rink. Noooootch. December 07 - 2:43 pm

The Koran says that suicide is wrong under ALL circumstances, and that anyone who kills themselves is guaranteed a spot in Hell. So why would all these Islamic Fundamentalists be so in favor of suicide bombings, and •••• like they pulled last Tuesday? What is it that drives these people to violate their religion's beliefs in order to "defend them?" How can they be so dumb?

The same thing that drives christians to commit genocide in the "crusades" 1000 years ago; or to bomb abortion clinics, or terrorize homosexuals in the name of God.

In all of these cases, religion is merely an excuse. Violent, and/or hateful people hide behind ideology to cover the fact that they are merely doing violence out of simple hate and fear.

Ghel, you do need to realize that NOT EVERYONE hides behind things to commit bad acts. Some people DO believe they are doing what God wants when they do things.

Yes, but that's still no excuse for them to commit atrocities in God's name, Jwb. They may believe that they're right to do so but of course they're really not.

To answer the original question. They do not think of it as suicide. They see it as heroically dying in battle.

True. That's why threatening them with death's not really that much of a deterent to them, not unless perhaps they're locked up tightly in a room with high-mounted loudspeakers (so they can't be torn off) from which they're forced to listen to an American preacher reading the bible from start to finish. Then they'll be begging to be put to death before long.

To the hijackers, it was not "suicide," it was "dying in a jihad." The trouble with this concept of "jihad" is that there is no central authority of Islam to specifically define it.

I've seen lots of images the past week or so of the people who jumped from the upper floors of the World Trade Center to their deaths. These people were certain to die anyway, since their only means of escape was severed by the plane. Is what they did wrong, deciding to die quickly rather than being slowly burned to death or suffocating? On one hand, only God should decide when people are going to die. On the other hand, these people were definitely going to die, only they did it a few minutes sooner than if they had stayed put. How would God judge them? I've had a hard time with this, so I decided to ask what others think.

I do not believe God makes those distinctions as a human would, margie. I think it is still suicide.

Jwb52z: So inother words those WTC victims are going to burn in hell the way they chose NOT to burn in the building? Tell that to their families why don't you?

Jwb, consider. There have been instances of people who fell from thousands of feet and lived (I believe the record is somewhere around 30,000 ft).

Perhaps these people were gambling a near-certain death (jumping) against a certain death (staying and frying).

When it comes to such difficult decisions, especially where no evil was intended, I choose not to second-guess God. We know He is the Author of the Law, and the Exactor of Justice, but He is also the Source of Divine Love and the Fountain of Mercy.

After the Ressurection, when Peter and John met with the Risen Christ, Jesus gave Peter his commision. Peter asked, "What about him [John]" and Jesus told him basically, "Just do what has been given to you to do. What's between him and Me is between him and Me."(Rough paraphrase of John 21:21-22)

I therefore respectfully decline to become involved any further in this debate.

On questions of suicide I don't express an opinion, typically, believing God will judge each such person based on the thoughts and intents of their hearts, their mental stability, etc. This situation will be no exception. No comment.

I thought of that too, Scott, that maybe some of the people thought they might survive. I'm pretty sure that the ones who jumped out holding hands knew they would die, but some of them may have thought they'd live. I guess, not being there and asking them (since that's impossible now) we'll never know. Some people, I had heard, also may have fallen. A lot of people were hanging on to the outside of the windows, and some may have been blown off or lost their grip. It'll still haunt me. But if they thought they'd survive the fall, even though the odds were astronomical, was that suicide?

I heard an interview on NPR with a psychologist, and also an article on Salon. He said that there are many reasons a person might jump in a situation like that. Perhaps for some animal instint took over and they fled from the dark smoke into fresh air. For others, it was a choice of choosing how they wanted to die, retaining control of their life till then end. Early in this century there was a terrible fire ina building and some jumped. These people lived long enough for them to be asked why they had done this. Some responded that they wanted there to be a body for their families to bury.

Personally, I don't thinnk it's suicide. I mean, if we ask a condemed person if they'd rather be killed by lethal injection or by the electric chair, that is not the same as them choosing to die. To me, these people did not choose to die or the timeof their death, they simply chose the method.

Merry

Another thing to consider is that not everyone burned to death, cuz although the fires spread to several lower floors, burning at about 1,200 degrees, literally liquifying the steel supports till they could no longer hold up the buildings, those who weren't burned were crushed under tons of rubble, including some or all of the jumpers, who would've been dead before that happened anyway.

One thing we also have to consider is that nowhere in the bible does God or Jesus specifically say suicide it wrong. Obviuosly we don't want to see anyone kill themselves, but I think the question of do you die by jumping form a zillion feet or by flame broiling, or having a gizillion tons of concrete fall on you is a mute question. Me personally, if I saw I couldn't get out I would have headed for the roof.

::Jwb52z: So inother words those WTC victims are going to burn in hell the way they chose NOT to burn in the building? Tell that to their families why don't you?:: Srussell

I never said it was pleasant, I just said that is what I believe.

::Jwb, consider. There have been instances of people who fell from thousands of feet and lived (I believe the record is somewhere around 30,000 ft).:: ScottN

If you live you didn't committ suicide.

::For others, it was a choice of choosing how they wanted to die, retaining control of their life till then end.:: Merry

That is what makes it suicide, choosing to die by your own hands whatever way that might be.

:: One thing we also have to consider is that nowhere in the bible does God or Jesus specifically say suicide it wrong.:: Adam

No, but murder is wrong and you have to be able to repent of a sin to not be held accountable for it, and you can't repent of a sin after you die. In suicide, the sin is not complete until you have died because you've only hurt yourself if you don't die. Suicide is murdering yourself.

>>>Ghel, you do need to realize that NOT EVERYONE hides behind things to commit bad acts. Some people DO believe they are doing what God wants when they do things.

'Scuse me for taking so long to respond. Anyway, I didn't intend to imply that everyone who hurts others in the name of religion is merely hiding behind it. While many do hide behind religion, there are certainly people who believe that they are doing Gods will. Sadly, however, this is generally caused by corrupted ideology, whether intentional (by those who would quote "scripture" or invoke title in order to incite others to violence) or unintentional (the person who convinces him/herself that violence is OK if it achieves "God's" ends).

As for the plane victims committing "suicide," I would have to believe that with the smoke, heat, and flames, the people stuck in the buildings were probably taking a last, desperate attempt to escape an inevitable fate. These people did not go in to work thinking about suicide, their "intentionality" was to live through the day. Hence, when circumstance beyond their control forced them to choose between burning to death or jumping from a window, neither choice could justly be called "suicide."

::neither choice could justly be called "suicide.":: Ghel

Making a choice to take action to end your life in a way that you will do yourself is suicide even in bad circumstances.

The problem, Jwb52z, is that you are assuming their intent was to kill themselves. What if it wasn't? What if (however unlikely the possibility may be) they thought they might survive the fall? What if they were pushed or thrown? What if in a delusional panic, they ran out a window not really in control or realizing what they were doing?

The fact that they died is meaningless. You have to intend to kill yourself in order for it to be suicide. Since you do not and have never inhabited the minds of those people, it is unfair for you to judge the intent of their actions.

Sax: So inother words those WTC victims are going to burn in hell the way they chose NOT to burn in the building? Tell that to their families why don't you?:: Srussell

Jwb52z: I never said it was pleasant, I just said that is what I believe.

You see he didn't deny it? Jw just said that many of the victims of the WTC are going to Hell!

Mikey, if one takes their life even in the event of making their death easier than it would otherwise be as in this situation, it is still suicide. Those people, for the most part, knew what jumping would do. They chose to do it. I'm not talking about people who fell or some other involunatary action. I am talking about those people who consciously decided to jump. I can say that they knew what would happen most likely and if so, it was suicide. If I know my actions will most likely lead to my death and I do it anyway and it DOES result in my death, it was suicide.

No.

If one intends to end their life by jumping, it's suicide. If one takes a grave risk, in the hope, no matter how slim, that they might survive (because people have), it's not suicide, becuase they didn't INTEND to die. Mortal sins require deliberation and intent. Not grave risk with the knowledge that it is 99% LIKELY they'll die, in a situation where the alternative (staying in the building) would ensure a 100% chance.

Skydiving is dangerous. If an unintelligent, careless person decides to go skydiving, doesn't take lessons, and packs his own parachute, and dies, that isn't intentional suicide, that's just stupidity on his part. There was no INTENT to die. Suicide requires INTENT, not likelihood.

>>>Making a choice to take action to end your life in a way that you will do yourself is suicide even in bad circumstances.

The element you seem to be missing is intentionality. What was the intent of the people jumping from the building?!? If the people had come in to work and said, "Hey, I think I'll jump off of the 100th floor," that would be suicide. However, in the situation in NYC, there was a physical (as opposed to moral) evil present. The people in the building were attempting to escape the physical evils of fire, heat, and smoke; things that would have surely killed them.
Because these people were reacting to an "impressed" sensation, the fire and heat that was causing severe pain, they could not have been capable of rational intellection. Intellection is the abstraction of the "impressed" senseory imput. In other words, the people who jumped off the trade centers were not acting as calm, rational individuals, but rather, they were merely reacting to the physical evils surrounding them. Just as you cannot be held responsible for "choosing" to pull your hand away from a hot stove because you do it without thought or even before you realize what is happening, nor can these people be held responsible for being forced to jump off of a building by flames hot enough to melt steel.

From what Jwb has said, the early apostles who were killed for their belief in Christ committed suicide. Instead of renouncing Jesus, or whatever, those chose to remain believers, even though they knew they would die for their faith. Therefore, by Jwb's logic, Stephen and other Christian martyrs did not go to Heaven.

Jwb, sometimes you can be such a rude, inconsiderate, thoughtless prick towards others and what they might go through. You don't know what actually went on in those people's minds at the time they realized they were gonna die and jumped, so please have some compassion for them and withhold your accusations against them from now on, ok? Nevermind your views on suicide for a moment. Have some consideration for what they must have experienced, something that most likely you or any of the rest of us here never will, ok? In fact, you might want to try to imagine what it was like for them, knowing they're about to die, the horror they must've felt, knowing the inevitability of their deaths and the fact that there wasn't a damned thing they could do to save themselves. Don't accuse them of suicide if in fact they may have tried, however vainly, to save themselves, and don't accuse them of suicide just cuz they jumped cuz again you don't know what their intentions were. Have some feelings also for what their families are going through. What if one of your loved ones were killed in the attacks. What if your loved one was one of those in the direct path of either plane that hit the towers. What if they were one of the jumpers. Then how would you feel? Or would you just still feel that they committed suicide anyway? One last thing: try to THINK of how your words may sound to someone else, and the fact that maybe, just maybe, at least one person who'll read your words may themselves have lost a loved one in the attacks, and then think how hurt and angry they may feel for your callousness. Can you do that? Just once, please? It'll make a world of difference. You'll see.

So, JWB, if I'm Christian, that is, I've accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, and I, say, am talking on teh cell phone lying to my mother about why I can't come to dinner tonight, and a bus hits me and kills me 5 seconds later, will I go to Hell? I've just commited a sin that I haven't asked for forgiveness for.

well, no. I will go to heaven because I have already claimed Christ's forgiveness for my sins, all my sins. Since Christ stated that all sins are equal in God's eyes, then it follows that suicide is no worse than lying, and those who commit suicide for any reason other than rejecting God's will, will go to heaven.

Furthermore, JWB, can we really say that those who chose to jump committed suicide. If I am locked in a cell,no way out, and the guard says, "I'm going to kill you by pouring this oil on you and setting you on fire, but I'll give you a cynaide pill." And you let them pour oil on you but break the cynaide pill open just as they light the match, then have you really committed suicide? YOu haven't chosen the time of your death, you haven't chosen the place, you'd much rather live, you've simply chosen another method of death.

That's not suicide.

Merry

What about the firemen and policemen who went into the remaining tower after the first one collapsed? They knew they were probably going to die, but they went in anyway. Is that suicide?
How about those who shoved people out of the way of falling debris, or covered other people's bodies with their own, and got killed by the debris? Is that suicide?
Would God take them into heaven for saving someone's life, or send them to hell for sacrificing their own?
Along the same line, didn't Jesus allow Himself to be crucified? He could have said things to keep Himself alive. Isn't this suicide?

Your right Merry the only sin that can not be forgiven is the rejection of Jesus Christ as one's savior. Not saying that a person can't be saved if they reject Christ the first time they hear it. Or even the tenth time.

The other thing that gets me is that J is saying that if a person takes any deliberate action to end their life, irregardless of the circumstances, they are committing suicide.

So, in other words, they were damned either way. They could have deliberately jumped, or they could have deliberately stayed. And died either way.

There's a pleasant contemplation for this evening. Me, I'm going to watch Enterprise instead.

What if, J, the people who jumped did so because they believed in their hearts that God would protect them and save them from *almost* certain death. Would it be suicide then?

Suicide must be based on the sin of despair. Without, it is not suicide.

::If one intends to end their life by jumping, it's suicide. If one takes a grave risk, in the hope, no matter how slim, that they might survive (because people have), it's not suicide, becuase they didn't INTEND to die. Mortal sins require deliberation and intent. Not grave risk with the knowledge that it is 99% LIKELY they'll die, in a situation where the alternative (staying in the building) would ensure a 100% chance.:: Savant

I don't think of suicide in that manner. As long as it is more likely that you will die than you will not, it is suicide to me. They chose to take the chance and the chance was not more likely that they would live. It was more likely that they would die.

::Because these people were reacting to an "impressed" sensation, the fire and heat that was causing severe pain, they could not have been capable of rational intellection.:: Ghel

You're right, IF these people were not in their right mind, it is not suicide, but surely not everyone was incapacitated to that significant of a degree even in such a tragedy.

::From what Jwb has said, the early apostles who were killed for their belief in Christ committed suicide. Instead of renouncing Jesus, or whatever, those chose to remain believers, even though they knew they would die for their faith. Therefore, by Jwb's logic, Stephen and other Christian martyrs did not go to Heaven.:: Benn

No, those men did not end their own lives by their own hands or actions. They had people that killed them.

Also, MarkN, don't presume to tell me I don't have compassion. I, however, will not say someone didn't commit suicide just as you won't say they will for the same reason. I wasn't there and I'm only going from what I saw. I still see it as suicide to choose a less painful death when you know you will die most likely, however small the chance you will not is, if the chance you will is greater.

::So, JWB, if I'm Christian, that is, I've accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, and I, say, am talking on teh cell phone lying to my mother about why I can't come to dinner tonight, and a bus hits me and kills me 5 seconds later, will I go to Hell? I've just commited a sin that I haven't asked for forgiveness for.:: Merry

If you truly meant to deceive your mother, then yes I do believe you have sinned and will go to Hell. I do believe any sin you have not or cannot repent of is not forgiven.

::well, no. I will go to heaven because I have already claimed Christ's forgiveness for my sins, all my sins. Since Christ stated that all sins are equal in God's eyes, then it follows that suicide is no worse than lying, and those who commit suicide for any reason other than rejecting God's will, will go to heaven.:: Merry

You cannot ask forgiveness for sins you have not committed yet. Any sin you haven't asked forgiveness for is not forgiven. It's not automatic. You have to be sorry and ask for it and try not to do it again.

::YOu haven't chosen the time of your death, you haven't chosen the place, you'd much rather live, you've simply chosen another method of death.:: Merry

You did, however, choose to die by a method other than one imposed on you without your own actions. That cyanide pill was YOUR choice to take just to have an "easier" death. You did commit suicide.

::What about the firemen and policemen who went into the remaining tower after the first one collapsed? They knew they were probably going to die, but they went in anyway. Is that suicide?:: Margie

No, that was their job to try to save people. That was a valiant act to die in trying to help others. It was an act of bravery.

::How about those who shoved people out of the way of falling debris, or covered other people's bodies with their own, and got killed by the debris? Is that suicide?:: Margie

No, that's not suicide, that's a different situation.

::Would God take them into heaven for saving someone's life, or send them to hell for sacrificing their own? Along the same line, didn't Jesus allow Himself to be crucified? He could have said things to keep Himself alive. Isn't this suicide?:: Margie

That's not suicide. It's a different situation. it wasn't a choice to die for yourself to avoid a harsher death or for some other frivilous reason.

::Your right Merry the only sin that can not be forgiven is the rejection of Jesus Christ as one's savior. Not saying that a person can't be saved if they reject Christ the first time they hear it. Or even the tenth time.:: Mirror Kirk

No, the only sin that can't be forgiven is one that you can't ask forgiveness for. That's suicide. You can't ask forgiveness for something after you are dead. Also, one can choose to NOT deny Christ anymore, ya know. God would not be so petty as to not allow someone to get back with Him if that person chose to do so.

::The other thing that gets me is that J is saying that if a person takes any deliberate action to end their life, irregardless of the circumstances, they are committing suicide.

So, in other words, they were damned either way. They could have deliberately jumped, or they could have deliberately stayed. And died either way.

There's a pleasant contemplation for this evening. Me, I'm going to watch Enterprise instead.:: Machiko Jenkins

No, it would not have been suicide if they had stayed because it would not be dying at their own hand by a choice they made to do to themselves that would kill them.

::What if, J, the people who jumped did so because they believed in their hearts that God would protect them and save them from *almost* certain death. Would it be suicide then?:: Devils Advocate

I'm sorry, but that would be suicide and a foolish action.

::Suicide must be based on the sin of despair. Without, it is not suicide.:: Matt Pesti

I don't know what you're talking about. The last time I checked, being unhappy was not a sin. If that were the case, every person with clinical depression would be Hellbound.

"No, the only sin that can't be forgiven is one that you can't ask forgiveness for." - Jwb

Wrong-O, J. Jesus was specifically asked to name "The Unforgivable Sin". He said it was blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He said nothing, nada, zip, zilch about suicide.

"::Suicide must be based on the sin of despair. Without, it is not suicide.:: Matt Pesti

I don't know what you're talking about. The last time I checked, being unhappy was not a sin." - Jwb again

You missed it, J. He's talking about the intent, the motivation behind the act of suicide.

As far as the Christian martyrs go, again, they could have prevented their impending deaths by giving up their religions. Yet, they chose to die. By your definition, J, that is suicide.

So quite simply, those that jumped to avoid a slow painful death are burning in Hell. You uncompassioante prick. I'll be sure to forward your opinion to Bill o'Reily. See what eh says.

Also, MarkN, don't presume to tell me I don't have compassion.
I won't, J, as soon as you start showing some.

I wasn't there and I'm only going from what I saw.
That's right, you went by what you saw visually. We all did, but you can't say for a fact that any of the jumpers actually committed suicide cuz again you don't know what went on inside their heads at that tragic moment that they'd just become a part of.

Anyway, I think we should all just stop responding to J anymore, at least on this subject, cuz he's got an idiotic answer for anything and everything we throw at him. In other words, it's just like water off a duck to him, cuz he refuses to see anyone's views other than his own, and we already have too many people here like that.

Is being A Grade A moron a sin? Does tolerance end when the Other Person is just TOO DARN DENCE TO UNDERSTAND?? I am tired of reading apologies for JWB & Peter, Ignorance and intolerance, hand in hand.

"As long as it is more likely that you will die than you will not, it is suicide to me."

Irrelevent. Definitions of words are not created according to your whims.

"They chose to take the chance and the chance was not more likely that they would live. It was more likely that they would die."

Doesn't matter. Suicide requies intent. Not likelihood.

Jwb52z: ***I don't think of suicide in that manner. As long as it is more likely that you will die than you will not, it is suicide to me. They chose to take the chance and the chance was not more likely that they would live. It was more likely that they would die. ***

Likelihood of death is your qualification for suicide? Intent has nothing to do with it? How exactly does choosing likely death over certain death qualify as suicide?

If I'm in a collapsing tunnel and my only means of escape are a passage filled with molten lava and a passage *filled* with venomous snakes, would I be guilty of a mortal sin because I chose the snakes? If I go into the molten lava, I *will* die. If I go into the snakes, I will *most probably* die, but there's a chance (however slim) that I will survive. But it'd be suicide just the same to you because the likelihood of my survival is that slim?

And let's turn it around another way. What if I choose to kill myself by simply holding my breath. In theory, this is impossible because at some point I would pass out and my body's autonomic system would take over allowing me to breathe again. But what if that didn't happen and I die anyway. In this scenario, the likelihood of my survival is great. So would that be suicide?


Jwb52z: ***You're right, IF these people were not in their right mind, it is not suicide, but surely not everyone was incapacitated to that significant of a degree even in such a tragedy.***

And yet you talk like *everyone* chose to kill themselves.


Jwb52z: ***No, those men did not end their own lives by their own hands or actions. They had people that killed them. ***

OK. So if I asked someone to push me off the burning building, I would not be guilty of a mortal sin because I did not commit the action, it was not by my own hand even though I wanted them to push me. Instead, that person would be guilty of murder.


Jwb52z: ***Also, MarkN, don't presume to tell me I don't have compassion. I, however, will not say someone didn't commit suicide just as you won't say they will for the same reason. I wasn't there and I'm only going from what I saw. I still see it as suicide to choose a less painful death when you know you will die most likely, however small the chance you will not is, if the chance you will is greater. ***

How ironic! You attack MarkN for being presumptuous about your thinking. And in the very next sentence you argue that it's acceptable for you to be presumptuous about the people who leaped off the building. Who the hell made you God? How the hell can you determine a person's state of mind or line of thought by what you see?

By your very own argument, MarkN is not presuming anything about your compassion. Like you, he's merely going by what he (as well as the rest of us) sees.

I have not seen one word of sympathy from you during all this. Instead, you have chosen to accuse the people who jumped of commiting a mortal sin and going to hell. That is insensitive, incompassionate, and downright fucking evil. And, yes, I can call you that because "I'm only going from what I saw."

Even in cases where people clearly commits suicide, ministers and priests refrain from telling their loved ones that the victim is going to hell. Instead, they lead us in prayers.

Way to be a representative of Christianity!


Jwb52z: ***No, the only sin that can't be forgiven is one that you can't ask forgiveness for. That's suicide. You can't ask forgiveness for something after you are dead.***

Ever hear of the afterlife, Jwb52z?


Jwb52z: ***God would not be so petty as to not allow someone to get back with Him if that person chose to do so. ***

OK. So according to you, God can be petty, just not so petty.


Jwb52z: ***No, it would not have been suicide if they had stayed because it would not be dying at their own hand by a choice they made to do to themselves that would kill them. ***

OK. So I want to shoot myself. I've got the gun out. it's in my mouth. I'm about to pull the trigger. Coincidentally, a fire breaks out in my apartment. I can leave. The exits are free. I just have to walk out the door and I'd be safe. But I choose to remain sitting where I am and let the fire engulf me and kill me. Then I would not have commited suicide, according to you, since I did not cause that death to happen to me. I simply let it happen to me.


Devil's Advocate: ***What if, J, the people who jumped did so because they believed in their hearts that God would protect them and save them from *almost* certain death. Would it be suicide then?***

Jwb52z: ***I'm sorry, but that would be suicide and a foolish action. ***

WHOA! Believing that God would protect you and save you is a foolish action? And you still proclaim to be Christian? What about all that stuff about being able to move mountains if you have faith in God?

I feel so sorry for you, Jwb52z. Because you are in such dire need for God's intervention in your life. He needs to come down and knock some sense into you. Unfortunately for you, you will never accept that even if He did come down to talk to you because you don't believe that God will ever speak to you. That's sad.

But no matter how evil I think you truly are, I will pray for you.

>I don't think of suicide in that manner. As long as it is more likely that you will die than you will not, it is suicide to me. They chose to take the chance and the chance was not more likely that they would live. It was more likely that they would die. <

Okay, how about this, Jwb? There is a cancer drug called cisplatin that is called a drug of last resort because it's highly toxic and as likely to kill you as to cure you (I knew I went to chemistry class for something!). A cancer patient always has an option to take a treatment or refuse it. If the person takes the treatment, and the drug kills them, are they committing suicide? Or if they hear the odds and decide not to take the drug, hoping a miracle happens and they get better anyway (which does sometimes happen!), but they die of cancer, is that suicide? In each case the person is making a choice that leads to their death. From the third sentence in the quote of yours I copied, you imply that these people are committing suicide because it is not more likely that they would live. If you say it's not the same situation, may I remind you that there have been people who have survived falling from great heights, so there would have been a chance for those people to live also.
I just had another thought. What if the jumpers said a prayer on the way down, asking God for forgiveness? It was such a long way from the top to the ground that there must have been time for a short prayer.
(Geez, I wish I could stop thinking about this stuff, even for a little while, but the media around here makes it impossible.)
Everyone else, one thing I have noticed about Jwb is that he rarely, if ever, calls people names. It would be nice if we could stop calling him names. I apologize to those who haven't been name calling, but I couldn't think of how else to word it.

margie: ***Everyone else, one thing I have noticed about Jwb is that he rarely, if ever, calls people names. It would be nice if we could stop calling him names. ***

You're right, he rarely calls people names. Instead he condescends, patronizes, and accuses, which accomplishes the same thing as name-calling: Insult.

I don't know what you're talking about.

Do you understand?

Have you ever heard of...?

I don't know why I ever say anything because you never understand things the way I mean to the point of it being stupid.

And now he's added condemnation of innocent people to his repertoire. So I'm sorry if my insults aren't veiled behind linguistic smoke and mirrors.

Last week, I responded to Jwb52z that I did not wish for him to ever address himself to me again because I feel that he is not a nice person at all. And I was content with that. Until he decided to muddy the memory of the innocent people who perished in the attacks.

::Wrong-O, J. Jesus was specifically asked to name "The Unforgivable Sin". He said it was blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He said nothing, nada, zip, zilch about suicide.:: Benn

The only reason it is unforgiveable is that the person who would go that far would NOT WANT FORGIVENESS most likely.

::As far as the Christian martyrs go, again, they could have prevented their impending deaths by giving up their religions. Yet, they chose to die. By your definition, J, that is suicide.:: Benn

The difference is that when God tells you to do something directly, it is automatically correct no matter what it is because God said it.

::I'll be sure to forward your opinion to Bill o'Reily.:: Dude

Whom?

::I won't, J, as soon as you start showing some.:: MarkN

I do have compassion, but not for those who willingly sin.

::Anyway, I think we should all just stop responding to J anymore, at least on this subject, cuz he's got an idiotic answer for anything and everything we throw at him. In other words, it's just like water off a duck to him, cuz he refuses to see anyone's views other than his own, and we already have too many people here like that.:: MarkN

Please don't insult me. I didn't insult anyone.

::Is being A Grade A moron a sin? Does tolerance end when the Other Person is just TOO DARN DENCE TO UNDERSTAND?? I am tired of reading apologies for JWB & Peter, Ignorance and intolerance, hand in hand.:: SLUGBUG

I am not ignorant. I am not a moron. Just because I believe that some of those people committed suicide does not make me a moron because I believe suicide is wrong. I never expect apologies, but I do expect politeness.

::Irrelevent. Definitions of words are not created according to your whims.:: Savant

It is not a whim. If you KNOW that the chances are that you will die more likely than you will live, and you do the thing that causes your death, you chose to take the chance to end your own life. Taking your own life is suicide.

::Likelihood of death is your qualification for suicide? Intent has nothing to do with it? How exactly does choosing likely death over certain death qualify as suicide?:: Mikey

Likelyhood AND intent matter to me. If you know that you will most likely die from something and you do it anyway, I call that intent to do it.

::If I'm in a collapsing tunnel and my only means of escape are a passage filled with molten lava and a passage *filled* with venomous snakes, would I be guilty of a mortal sin because I chose the snakes?:: Mikey

No because it is possible that you could fend off the snakes. You can't fend off falling from a building like that when you chose to do it.

::And let's turn it around another way. What if I choose to kill myself by simply holding my breath. In theory, this is impossible because at some point I would pass out and my body's autonomic system would take over allowing me to breathe again. But what if that didn't happen and I die anyway. In this scenario, the likelihood of my survival is great. So would that be suicide?:: Mikey

If it didn't happen, then yes it would be suicide because you chose to do an action that ended your life and you knew it would do it.

:: OK. So if I asked someone to push me off the burning building, I would not be guilty of a mortal sin because I did not commit the action, it was not by my own hand even though I wanted them to push me. Instead, that person would be guilty of murder.:: Mikey

Nice try. You did have a hand in your death because you ASKED for it. It's like assisted suicide.

::I have not seen one word of sympathy from you during all this. Instead, you have chosen to accuse the people who jumped of commiting a mortal sin and going to hell. That is insensitive, incompassionate, and downright ••••••• evil. And, yes, I can call you that because "I'm only going from what I saw.":: Mikey

Wasn't that the question that was asked?

::Even in cases where people clearly commits suicide, ministers and priests refrain from telling their loved ones that the victim is going to hell. Instead, they lead us in prayers.:: Mikey

The ones I know DO tell you that if you ask them in no uncertain terms.

::Ever hear of the afterlife, Jwb52z?:: Mikey

Most Christians I know do not believe in repentence after death. That's what the ones I know and myself believe that life is for in the first place.

:: OK. So according to you, God can be petty, just not so petty.:: Mikey

Try to stay with me here in this concept. No matter what God does, it is ok because He is God. He's able to do things because he's the Creator that we cannot do. His nature is good no matter what He does. God, although some people don't like to believe it, is not all love alone. He's also a God of fire and vengeance.

:: OK. So I want to shoot myself. I've got the gun out. it's in my mouth. I'm about to pull the trigger. Coincidentally, a fire breaks out in my apartment. I can leave. The exits are free. I just have to walk out the door and I'd be safe. But I choose to remain sitting where I am and let the fire engulf me and kill me. Then I would not have commited suicide, according to you, since I did not cause that death to happen to me. I simply let it happen to me.:: Mikey

It does make it suicide because you COULD escape and chose not to do so. The people in the WTC could NOT have escaped except with death unless they got out early like some people on the lower floors did.

::WHOA! Believing that God would protect you and save you is a foolish action? And you still proclaim to be Christian? What about all that stuff about being able to move mountains if you have faith in God?:: Mikey

My group does not believe that God has physical or knowable interaction with humanity anymore after Biblical times.

::But no matter how evil I think you truly are, I will pray for you.:: Mikey

I am not evil, I'm just not going to be easy on things I believe are wrong. I am compassionate for people losing their lives, but not those who chose to take their own.

Margie, choosing to let yourself die from a disease that you can't help is not suicide. In this specific case that you mention on one side it could not be because you were TRYING to save your life in something that was possible to help, but in another it could be suicide. In this case you have made, I can't say for sure what I would think. I don't know why I'm always singled out for answering a question honestly when it is asked. Do you all really not want to hear an answer that you won't like? Are all these questions asked here merely rhetorical?

I do have compassion, but not for those who willingly sin.

Let us say it together: All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This means you. And me. And Margie, and Benn, and MarkN, and all six billion other people in the world. Effectively, you just said you don't have compassion for anyone, because the set of people who willingly sin is the same as the set of all people in the world.

To Jwb52z: Isn't PRIDE one of the seven deadly sins?

Matthew, there's a difference between willful sinning and sins that you don't do directly on purpose just to spite God. Not all people sin ON PURPOSE. Most people try to do good on purpose. Willful sinning is not sinning because you're human, which can't be helped. It's sinning for a purpose against God when you do it with intent against God. Anonymous, I don't believe that any sin is different than another.

Jwb52z: ***I don't know why I'm always singled out for answering a question honestly when it is asked. Do you all really not want to hear an answer that you won't like? Are all these questions asked here merely rhetorical? ***

This is how people respond to callous, insensitive remarks made during a highly emotional and volatile time. And if you'll notice on other boards where people have given insensitive responses (like Peter, another "Christian"), you'll recognize that you are not "singled out".

The same right which allows you to make gross determinations and cast judgements on innocent lives because of what you saw, allows us to make determinations about you based on your actions.

Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed.

Though this was directed at Thomas regarding belief in the resurrection of Christ, it applies to faith in general. I prefer to believe that my fellow man, possibly in an act of desperation, turned to God in his final moments. You choose to believe that he turned to himself.

You claim that God is vengeful. According to Jesus, He's not; He's love. And yet you've claimed in the past that material in the New Testament supercedes contradictory material in the Old Testament.

Regardless, even if God were wrathful and vengeful, vengeange and retribution have nothing to do with why those people chose to fall off the building. Instead what you're really suggesting is that God is cruel.

And what I'm suggesting is that God is not cruel, but you are. I have long ago given up on thinking that you are simply misguided. I believe you are simply a bad, bad person.

You claim to be a wholesome Christian person, yet none of your responses indicates this to be the case.

You claim you "do have compassion, but not for those who willingly sin." Then you state that "not all people sin ON PURPOSE." Well, even if you accept that the people who jumped were commiting a sin (which I don't), how do you know they commited the sin "ON PURPOSE?" Would "ON PURPOSE" suggest intent which you claim isn't as important as the likelihood that you would die?

Also, another contradiction: You told Matthew that "there's a difference between willful sinning and sins that you don't do directly on purpose just to spite God." then in the same post you tell Anonymous that you "don't believe that any sin is different than another."

Does not compute!!!


You imply (once againh) that you are the unwitting victim of ruthless attacks. That you don't insult. Pardon me, but that's bullshit. I've already provided plenty of examples where you do just that. The fact that your insults aren't direct, that they're veiled behind choice words doesn't change its nature.

You are callous and the fact that you can't recognize the insensitivity of your responses in light of everyone's reactions to them makes you evil: because you know that your statements are harming people and yet you continue to make them.

And based on this I think you are more deserving of a place in hell than even the hijackers. At least they believed in something other than their own pride.

"I do have compassion, but not for those who willingly sin."

Really! And here along I thought "loving your enemies" was a Christian concept!

How COMFORTING it must be to have an answer for everything, to be impervious to anything said by others, to be able to not say one kind word during all this, to be able to never say "Hmm, that's a good point, guys". How comforting it is to be the social and theological equivalent of a pseudoscientist.

"My group does not believe that God has physical or knowable interaction with humanity anymore after Biblical times." - Jwb

One form of interaction would be praying for the forgiveness of sin and God granting that forgiveness. But since according to your church, God does not interact with humans, there's no sense in repentence, asking Jesus to come into your heart and be your Savior. That would require God to interact with the sinner. Yet, by your faith, He doesn't. Which, of course means, we'll all be getting together for that big cookout in Hell. I'll bring the ribs.

"::Wrong-O, J. Jesus was specifically asked to name "The Unforgivable Sin". He said it was blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He said nothing, nada, zip, zilch about suicide.:: Benn

The only reason it is unforgiveable is that the person who would go that far would NOT WANT FORGIVENESS most likely." - Jwb

'Tain't the point, laddie. Point is, you said suicide is the unforgivable. Jesus is God. God is all-knowing. Jesus said "blaspheming the Holy Ghost" was the unforgivable sin. Ergo, suicide is not. If it were, I would think a supposedly all-knowing God would have mentioned it if it was.

And anyway, it was still a deliberate action that led to hundreds of confirmed deaths (and thousands of assumed). Those who stayed and were killed in big fireball explosions must have committed suicide, because they took a deliberate action in which their life ended. Thus, they had a hand in their own deaths. Thus, they are all sinners and must suffer for that.

I think that's how the logic goes.

And anyway, that's enough of that. I bow out of this pointless debate, because you know what? Calling people sinners for staying and burning, or for jumping, or for flying planes into buildings, or for rolling their eyes clockwise instead of counterclockwise is not only ridiculous, it's irrelevant. They're all dead.

My only question is, those who were higher up than the point of impact, couldn't they escape to the roof? And if so, why didn't police and fire helicopters come and bear them off?

::I prefer to believe that my fellow man, possibly in an act of desperation, turned to God in his final moments. You choose to believe that he turned to himself.:: Mikey

That's not what I said. I think some people may have "turned to God" but that doesn't mean it got them anything one way or the other necessarily.

::You claim that God is vengeful. According to Jesus, He's not; He's love. And yet you've claimed in the past that material in the New Testament supercedes contradictory material in the Old Testament.:: Mikey

That only applies to laws given to us in the present day that were overridden after Christ came, not the nature of God Himself.

::Instead what you're really suggesting is that God is cruel.:: Mikey

No, I'm not trying to suggest that.

::I believe you are simply a bad, bad person.:: Mikey

I'm sorry you feel that way.

::You claim to be a wholesome Christian person, yet none of your responses indicates this to be the case.:: Mikey

I believe your idea of what a Christian "should" be is inaccurate.

::You claim you "do have compassion, but not for those who willingly sin." Then you state that "not all people sin ON PURPOSE." Well, even if you accept that the people who jumped were committing a sin (which I don't), how do you know they committed the sin "ON PURPOSE?" Would "ON PURPOSE" suggest intent which you claim isn't as important as the likelihood that you would die?:: Mikey

Unless you were pushed or just fell out of the building because it was falling and tried to not fall, you had to have done it on purpose. Also, both intent and likelihood are important and I said that.

::Also, another contradiction: You told Matthew that "there's a difference between willful sinning and sins that you don't do directly on purpose just to spite God." then in the same post you tell Anonymous that you "don't believe that any sin is different than another.":: Mikey

If you understood the meaning of those two sentences you would not think they were contradictory. No sins are different to God, they are only different to Man in some ways.

::You are callous and the fact that you can't recognize the insensitivity of your responses in light of everyone's reactions to them makes you evil: because you know that your statements are harming people and yet you continue to make them.:: Mikey

By your own words which I agree with, intent matters, and it was not my intent to hurt people. I simply answered a question honestly that was asked and then people jump on me because they don't like what I say.

::And based on this I think you are more deserving of a place in hell than even the hijackers. At least they believed in something other than their own pride.:: Mikey

You say this to me and talk about what is insulting and bad? That's rich. I don't take anything said here that seriously anymore. I hope you know that.

::Really! And here along I thought "loving your enemies" was a Christian concept!:: Savant

You love the person, not what they do. Compassion and love are not the same.

:: One form of interaction would be praying for the forgiveness of sin and God granting that forgiveness. But since according to your church, God does not interact with humans, there's no sense in repentence, asking Jesus to come into your heart and be your Savior. That would require God to interact with the sinner. Yet, by your faith, He doesn't. Which, of course means, we'll all be getting together for that big cookout in Hell. I'll bring the ribs.:: Benn

Interaction in the sense I mean is a little more concrete than what you are talking about. We don't believe God has physical contact with humanity and forgiveness is not a physical act. Those other things you mention are not physical such as "God coming into your heart." That's a metaphorical/symbolic thing.

::'Tain't the point, laddie. Point is, you said suicide is the unforgivable. Jesus is God. God is all-knowing. Jesus said "blaspheming the Holy Ghost" was the unforgivable sin. Ergo, suicide is not. If it were, I would think a supposedly all-knowing God would have mentioned it if it was.:: Benn

You can't be forgiven for something after you are dead because life is the time for that. You can't ask for forgiveness after you are dead and if you can't ask for it, it won't be given because you can't just be passive and be forgiven.

::And anyway, it was still a deliberate action that led to hundreds of confirmed deaths (and thousands of assumed). Those who stayed and were killed in big fireball explosions must have committed suicide, because they took a deliberate action in which their life ended. Thus, they had a hand in their own deaths. Thus, they are all sinners and must suffer for that.:: My Dear Miss M

The people in the building who could not escape to safety on the ground were not acting on their own wishes when they died as a result of the explosions. I don't want anyone to die or go to Hell, but I think that some people will.

::My only question is, those who were higher up than the point of impact, couldn't they escape to the roof? And if so, why didn't police and fire helicopters come and bear them off?:: My Dear Miss M

I thought about that, but people told me that they couldn't have gotten planes there in time or that they couldn't land even if they got there and the smoke would be too thick to see the ladders that they would let down.

I have a question for you all. How can I say what I really think without you all jumping on me when you don't like what I say?

By not acting as if logic, reason, vocabulary, argumentation and reality itself exist solely to protect you from having to admit that you're wrong, or that others are right, or that they at least have valid points.

By not criticizing others for saying or doing things that you do, and acting like you can do engage in certain behavior when "you feel it's appropriate", but others can't.

By not assuming facts not in evidence, using veiled contempt and condescendsion, drawing equations between disparate things based solely on superficial similarites.

By not saying that you've never done any of these things simply by saying "Oh, well, I haven't done that", which you do not because you've honestly evaluated the possibility that you've said hurtful or egotistical things, but simply because you want to be right in your own mind all the time, and never admit that you're one of many who is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

By considering this: One definition of pseudoscience is that those who promote it always have an answer for everything, never admit problems with their theories, and seem impervious to any argument. The law of averages, and human fallibility and limitation, make this impossible. Ask yourself if you don't behave like this. People who do this lack the capacity for critical thinking and honest debate. Ask yourself if you've ever mulled over someone ele's counterpoint, or if you've ever had to pause when someone made a compelling point, one that caused you to reexamine your position. If you haven't, you are incapable to having an equitable relationship with anyone, here or in person.

::By not acting as if logic, reason, vocabulary, argumentation and reality itself exist solely to protect you from having to admit that you're wrong, or that others are right, or that they at least have valid points.:: Savant

In other words, "act like I know nothing and never say anything that would possibly disagree with anyone."

::By not criticizing others for saying or doing things that you do, and acting like you can do engage in certain behavior when "you feel it's appropriate", but others can't.:: Savant

In other words, "don't use what you think is appropriate just because someone else doesn't like it."

::By not assuming facts not in evidence, using veiled contempt and condescendsion, drawing equations between disparate things based solely on superficial similarites.:: Savant

In other words, "use nothing you think you know and only what would make others happy."

::By not saying that you've never done any of these things simply by saying "Oh, well, I haven't done that", which you do not because you've honestly evaluated the possibility that you've said hurtful or egotistical things, but simply because you want to be right in your own mind all the time, and never admit that you're one of many who is sometimes right and sometimes wrong.:: Savant

In other words, "never act like you're right if anyone disagrees."

::By considering this: One definition of pseudoscience is that those who promote it always have an answer for everything, never admit problems with their theories, and seem impervious to any argument. The law of averages, and human fallibility and limitation, make this impossible. Ask yourself if you don't behave like this. People who do this lack the capacity for critical thinking and honest debate. Ask yourself if you've ever mulled over someone ele's counterpoint, or if you've ever had to pause when someone made a compelling point, one that caused you to reexamine your position. If you haven't, you are incapable to having an equitable relationship with anyone, here or in person.:: Savant

If that's true, then I'm ready to live alone....I'm used to it. I doubt it though that it is.

"In other words, "act like I know nothing and never say anything that would possibly disagree with anyone."

Depends on HOW you "know" something. Did you gain this knowledge through a process of trying to assimilate information from many sources, over a period of time, weighing it against personal experience, and taking into consideration the manner in which many different people have different perceptions and feeling? Or did you simply say it on whim, because you don't know how or didn't bother to think about the subject in depth, and because you reflexively shove away views different from yours? If you disagree, is it because the logic in the other person's argument is flawed in some way, or simply because you automatically bestow the label "right" on anything you say, but not if someone else says it?

"In other words, "don't use what you think is appropriate just because someone else doesn't like it.""

NO, don't use it and then criticize someone else for doing the same thing, and then argue the situations are different, when the diffence is superficial, rather than substantial.

In other words, "use nothing you think you know and only what would make others happy."

No, by not assuming facts not in evidence, using veiled contempt and condescendsion, drawing equations between disparate things based solely on superficial similarites. Trying to say you can discern the state of mind of someone falling from one of the Tower, even though we don't know if they jumped, fell, or were propelled from the heat is assuming facts not in evidence. You're not "using something you think you know" because you simply DON'T KNOW IT, PERIOD. Holding people responsible for saying things you took offense to, but NEVER feeling you should be held likewise when you do the same, or saying people who died in the WTC tragedy are burning in hell is contemptful, it is not "using what you think you know."

"In other words, "never act like you're right if anyone disagrees."

NO, don't base your assertion of being right simply on an inability to admit you're wrong. A person who NEVER says, "Hmm, maybe you have point," or "Okay, maybe I got my facts wrong or I remembered that little thing I read wrong", and who NEVER acknowledges their own human fallibility in any way, or humility ISN'T "right." They're simply socially inept.

Don't think so? Fine. Answer me this: When everyone was asking everyone if everyone was already when the tragedy happened, why didn't you post?

make that "everyone was All RIGHT".

Jwb52z: ***That's not what I said. I think some people may have "turned to God" but that doesn't mean it got them anything one way or the other necessarily. ***

Don't twist what is being discussed here.

You said that the people who jumped out of the building commited suicide and are thus banished for eternity to hell. You said that (however desperate the action was) they commited a mortal, unforgiveable sin. And you said you "knew" this because of what you saw.

I (and others) have suggested that you have no idea why those people jumped out of the building, that you are ASSUMING that not on facts but on presumptions based on how possibly you would think in that situation.

When I suggested that perhaps those people turned to God and believed that God would protect them or save them, you stated that if they did they were "foolish."

The fact that God didn't prevent their deaths is IRRELEVANT. What we were discussing was their states of mind and what they possibly believed. I choose to believe they turned to God. You like to believe otherwise.


Jwb52z: ***That only applies to laws given to us in the present day that were overridden after Christ came, not the nature of God Himself. ***

In other words, selective application of the Bible. Nothing new here from you.


Jwb52z: ***No, I'm not trying to suggest that. ***

Note: I didn't say you were "trying to suggest that," I said you were suggesting it. There's a difference.


Mikey: ***I believe you are simply a bad, bad person.***

Jwb52z: ***I'm sorry you feel that way. ***

First of all, based on your later statement that you don't care what we think of you anymore, I doubt the sincerity of this statement. How can you not care but also feel sorry for what I think? So I don't believe you.

Second, don't you dare try to turn this on me. My belief is based solely on the facts in evidence (your statements of accusation and your lack of statements of compassion or apology).


Jwb52z: ***I believe your idea of what a Christian "should" be is inaccurate. ***

Actually, I don't think that's the case at all. How can my idea be inaccurate? It's my idea. It's my interpretation.

Instead, I think it's that our views of what a Christian "should" be differs. So I challenge you: What do you think a Christian "should" be?

Not that I think you'll answer that question. Instead you're more likely to respond with something like "It isn't my job to tell you that and you should already know what I believe. You're just going to change my words and make me say something that I didn't mean to say or just tell me that you don't understand my point. No one ever gets what I mean anyway." Or some other equally enigmatic statement.

If you do reply, I will be pleasantly surprised. But don't you be surprised when we track your previous posts and note the hypocrisies between what you think a Christian "should" be and how you comport yourself here.


Jwb52z: ***By your own words which I agree with, intent matters, and it was not my intent to hurt people. I simply answered a question honestly that was asked and then people jump on me because they don't like what I say. ***

And yet to this moment you have not apologized for saying anything that may have been construed as insensitive. Even worse, you continue to do it and aggravate the situation further.

If I step on someone's foot, chances are I didn't mean to do it. So I apologize. I don't continue to stamp on their foot, punch them in the gut, and break their nose, too.


Jwb52z: ***You say this to me and talk about what is insulting and bad? That's rich. I don't take anything said here that seriously anymore. I hope you know that. ***

I have never stated that I have not insulted you. In fact, I have said the opposite. I say that I insult you directly, where your insults are veiled behind choice phrases: Try to stay with me on this concept. If you understood the meaning of those two sentences...

Such statements are patronizing and condescending. And they are just as insulting as when I call you a fucking asshole with no consideration for the people you want to understand you.

And I don't buy the I don't take anything said here that seriously anymore because if that were the case, then you wouldn't respond with your veiled insults. The very fact that you take the time to disguise your insults where mine are reflex and matter-of-fact suggests that you take it even more seriously than I do.


Jwb52z: ***You love the person, not what they do. Compassion and love are not the same. ***

You're right. But compassion grows out of love.


Jwb52z: ***Those other things you mention are not physical such as "God coming into your heart." That's a metaphorical/symbolic thing. ***

Except you've argued quite vehemently in the past that there is no such thing as symbolic messages, that everything in the Bible should be taken literally.


Jwb52z: ***I don't want anyone to die or go to Hell, but I think that some people will. ***

And now you're changing your tune. Of course "some" people will go to hell. But your argument right until this statement is that those people will because they commited suicide.


Jwb52z: ***I have a question for you all. How can I say what I really think without you all jumping on me when you don't like what I say? ***

I thought you didn't take any of this seriously anymore. But to answer:

Every one of us has said things that we feel is the right thing to say at a particular moment and it turns out to be the wrong thing. We're not jumping on you just because of what you said, but because you continue to say it even after you KNOW you've insulted and hurt people (no matter how unintentionally).

These are the facts in evidence:

1. At no point during or shortly after the events of the 11th did you offer ONE word of sympathy, not one word of pity, not even an "Hey, I hope everyone is okay." Nothing.

2. The very first thing you say with respect to what happened is, "Oh, yeah. Those people who jumped are going to hell."

3. In light of the fact that a number of people because angry with you, you have still not offered one word of sympathy. You have not apologized for the insensitivity of your statements. You have even gone on record to say that you don't care what we think (thus, you don't care how we feel).

No one is telling you to change your beliefs. We don't necessarily agree with them, true. But no one is asking you to change them.

What we're telling you is that whatever your beliefs, there's a time and place to preach them. And this is not the time nor the place.

At any point in all this have you considered that someone on this board who we've dealt with may have died in the tragedy? Have you considered that maybe someone close to a poster was there and is missing or may have been one of the people who jumped? Did you ever consider that maybe that poster is trying to move on with his life and is trying to comprehend the enormity of what happened? Did you ever consider that your words didn't help, that they hurt, particularly when people tell you that it hurt them? Have you ever looked past yourself to try and comprehend how another person may be thinking or feeling (beyond "what you see," that is)?

You want a simple answer to your question, Jwb52z? You want to know the simplest way you can say what you think without hurting others? Here it is:

Look past yourself.

"2. The very first thing you say with respect to what happened is, `Oh, yeah. Those people who jumped are going to hell.'" - Mikey

No. The very first words J had on the subject concerned the Nostradamus quatrain, a meaningless side issue given the gravity of the situation.

I may have unconsciously suppressed that memory. Thankfully that discussion isn't available for me to retrieve and review as I recall Jwb52z really pissed me off.

But my point still stands that the first remark Jwb52z has made on these boards with regards to those people wasn't how sorrowful he felt, but how they were undoubtedly banished to hell.

Without naming names, J was one of the three people - all of whom claim to be conservative - who failed to post any words of sympathy that I can recall. I am not reading anything negative about that. It could very well be meaningless. They may not have been able to find the words to express how they felt. But it was something that caught my eye.

But they certainly don't have trouble finding the words to express themselves now. Two of them, anyway.

Mikey.

All three of them, actually.

I've decide not to add anything more to this discussion. I do have more to say, but I just don't want to think about this stuff anymore right now. Maybe by not discussing it I can stop dwelling on it. I've also stopped watching the news, since that's all they talk about. I'll come back maybe sometime. I'm not leaving Nitcentral, just this topic. It's nothing against anyone here - I want to make that clear - but it's just the whole situation that's getting to me too much.

And can we knock off the silly verbal games again, gentlemen?

J believes that the WTC jumpers are doomed for Hell. Fine, that's his right to believe that, and while I personally have a few things to say to his God about that, that's the end of it.

Yes, I feel he could show a bit of sympathy (or at least tact, and not say that up to six thousand people are possibly doomed, but that's just me), but that's not what's being discussed here.

Oh well. Why do I bother? I'm just going to go back to balancing my checking account, and find that irritating three dollar difference and missing receipt.

I'm sorry. I didn't think that reacting to what I deem a personal assault on not just my beliefs but on the memory of someone close to me is engaging in "silly verbal games."

Fuck you all!

´?¬
???spel According to Jwb, Chapter 4, verse 7:

And sayeth the Lord, "Borg leader jokes are verbotten. They are hurtful. They are insensitive. They are insulting when the are spoken by anyone, so long as he who is the target of them is hurt by them and says so."

And the Lord also sayeth: "But saying the 6,000 people died in the Twin Towers are burning in hell is okay."

::NO, don't use it and then criticize someone else for doing the same thing, and then argue the situations are different, when the diffence is superficial, rather than substantial.:: Savant

They are still different, even if it is a small way.

::Don't think so? Fine. Answer me this: When everyone was asking everyone if everyone was already when the tragedy happened, why didn't you post?:: Savant

I didn't feel the need to because I don't live in NY or Washington DC.

::When I suggested that perhaps those people turned to God and believed that God would protect them or save them, you stated that if they did they were "foolish.":: Mikey

I said it because that is my honest belief.

::In other words, selective application of the Bible. Nothing new here from you.:: Mikey

It's not selective application because some things were overriden from the Old Law after Christ came.

::Note: I didn't say you were "trying to suggest that," I said you were suggesting it. There's a difference.:: Mikey

I know that, but it wasn't my intent to suggest that and I don't think I did.

::How can you not care but also feel sorry for what I think?:: Mikey

It's a matter of pity.

::Instead, I think it's that our views of what a Christian "should" be differs. So I challenge you: What do you think a Christian "should" be?:: Mikey

We probably have the same definition, it's just the details that are different.

::And yet to this moment you have not apologized for saying anything that may have been construed as insensitive. Even worse, you continue to do it and aggravate the situation further.:: Mikey

I don't think I should have to apologize for an honest opinion.

::And I don't buy the I don't take anything said here that seriously anymore because if that were the case, then you wouldn't respond with your veiled insults. The very fact that you take the time to disguise your insults where mine are reflex and matter-of-fact suggests that you take it even more seriously than I do.:: Mikey

Here's an honest question for you with no malice intended. Is it beyond your scope of thought to understand that this is all a game to have some fun with, posting here I mean, hmmm?

::You're right. But compassion grows out of love.:: Mikey

Yes, but you don't tolerate sin even if you have compassion.

::Except you've argued quite vehemently in the past that there is no such thing as symbolic messages, that everything in the Bible should be taken literally.:: Mikey

No, that's not what I said. I said that things should be taken literally except when they cannot be literally happening.

::And now you're changing your tune. Of course "some" people will go to hell. But your argument right until this statement is that those people will because they commited suicide.:: Mikey

Yes, if it was suicide, they will.

::I thought you didn't take any of this seriously anymore.:: Mikey

I don't, but since this is a place to have fun for me, I don't like being griped at.

::2. The very first thing you say with respect to what happened is, "Oh, yeah. Those people who jumped are going to hell.":: Mikey

Just remember, that question was asked directly and I answered it with what I believe.

::You have even gone on record to say that you don't care what we think (thus, you don't care how we feel).:: Mikey

Thought and feeling are separate issues.

::What we're telling you is that whatever your beliefs, there's a time and place to preach them. And this is not the time nor the place.:: Mikey

What you are telling me is to not answer a question honestly in this case.

Yeah, I'll pass, thanks, Mikey. Flattered, though.

Now I remember why Morgan left this place. No one is capable of thinking before speaking, and the language is pretty darn inflammatory to boot.

I have better things to do. Let me know if maturity arrives.

"::Don't think so? Fine. Answer me this: When everyone was asking everyone if everyone was already when the tragedy happened, why didn't you post?:: Savant

I didn't feel the need to because I don't live in NY or Washington DC." - Jwb

I think I just lost respect for you, J. According to you, we live an hour apart. So you know I don't live in D.C. or NY. (Derf knows that for sure.) I personallyknow anybody who live in either cities. Yet, I felt a great deal of sympathy for these people.

I'm not bothered by you saying the jumpers are going to Hell for committing suicide. I am disturbed that you do not seem to care about the victims.

I hope I'm misinterpreting your comment, but from every comment you've made since September 11th, I'm afraid I'm not.

Savant: "NO, don't use it and then criticize someone else for doing the same thing, and then argue the situations are different, when the diffence is superficial, rather than substantial."

Jwb: "They are still different, even if it is a small way."

It doesn’t matter. They’re not different in an IMPORTANT way. Saying "Thoughts and feeling are separate issues" ignores the point that people who don’t care what others think OR feel do so for the SAME REASON. Thus, for someone to say they don’t care what others think, but they do care how they feel because of a sense of "pity" is false. Moreover, you DO care what we think. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t come here, and you wouldn’t have asked us, "I have a question for you all. How can I say what I really think without you all jumping on me when you don't like what I say?" That you ask us such a question proves you do care.

Savant: "Don't think so? Fine. Answer me this: When everyone was asking everyone if everyone was already when the tragedy happened, why didn't you post?"

Jwb: "I didn't feel the need to because I don't live in NY or Washington DC."

How DARE you.

People all over the PLANET have been magnanimous in their outpouring of sympathy. Do you think Christ wouldn’t have cared about tragic deaths that didn’t occur geographically close to him, or have sent words of caring if he had the means?

I would point out to you that many of the people who were killed or injured in the attack didn’t live in NY or DC either.

Mikey: "How can you not care but also feel sorry for what I think?"

Jwb: "It's a matter of pity."

You don’t pity the people who died or were affected in the attack because you don’t live in NY or DC, but you pity people on a message board? Are you under the impression we all live in Texas?

Jwb: "I don't think I should have to apologize for an honest opinion."

But when others post honest opinions that you take offense to, you feel THEY should, right?

Jwb: "Here's an honest question for you with no malice intended. Is it beyond your scope of thought to understand that this is all a game to have some fun with, posting here I mean, hmmm?"

A game? Fun? You evil little piece of worm-ridden FILTH.

How DARE you talk about discussing a horrible tragedy in such a manner. Posting on the Star Wars or Blake 7 boards is fun, and even then, whether something is a game or fun has nothing to do with using hypocrisy, childishness and self-centeredness in one’s arguments. But this is not a board for music or games or sci-fi. It’s a board on which we’re discussing a national and international tragedy in which 5 or 6 thousand people were murdered.

Jwb: "since this is a place to have fun for me, I don't like being griped at."

Tough s***t. Expect more of it, you living abortion.

Jwb: "What you are telling me is to not answer a question honestly in this case."

You never have. Along with Peter, you are one of the biggest liars I’ve ever seen, and have NEVER displayed honesty in your discussions with others.

Wow. I'm gone from this board for two days and now I've got tons of catching up to do.

Well, first, thank you, Mikey, for your defense of me. So much for no one taking my advice about ignoring J but oh, well. I knew we'd still do that, so here I go again.

I do have compassion, but not for those who willingly sin.
Ok, 1.) we all "sin", willingly or not; 2.) again you have absolutely, positively not one iota of knowledge that those unfortunate people were actually committing a sin by jumping, so get off your high and mighty, selfrighteous, smug, I-know-it-all-and-you-know-nothing attitude and get a serious reality check cuz dude you're so not living in this reality, which, as far as I'm concerned, is a far more grievious sin than what you're talking about.

Please don't insult me. I didn't insult anyone.
ExSCUUUUUUSE me? You sure as hell insulted someone. Several someones, in fact, and you did so callously, inconsiderately, noncompassionately and without a single care in the world for those who tragically died in the worst event to happen in US history on US soil. Lately you can't seem to say a single goddamned thing without insulting anyone on NC, so why not just do all the rest of us a favor and never post on NC anymore?

I never expect apologies, but I do expect politeness.
You'll only get some politeness when you give some. I'd also call you a moron if you didn't already give morons a bad name.

Likelyhood AND intent matter to me. If you know that you will most likely die from something and you do it anyway, I call that intent to do it.
And what if you have no choice but to die in the way you're gonna anyway with no way out of it to prevent it and so you give in to it? Is that suicide? No. It's accepting the inevitable and unavoidable.

Try to stay with me here in this concept. No matter what God does, it is ok because He is God. He's able to do things because he's the Creator that we cannot do. His nature is good no matter what He does. God, although some people don't like to believe it, is not all love alone. He's also a God of fire and vengeance.
Again, reality check. Don't speak for God cuz you don't know jackshit about the REAL God. No one does, regardless of what one wishes to believe. You can tell us what you think God is like but don't tell us that that's what God actually is like cuz you just don't know. Oh, and what you choose to believe doesn't supercede or have any more validity than anyone else's beliefs, either.

You can't be forgiven for something after you are dead because life is the time for that. You can't ask for forgiveness after you are dead and if you can't ask for it, it won't be given because you can't just be passive and be forgiven.
You don't know this for a fact. You only believe it but that doesn't mean that it's true, nor will you know the truth until you are in fact dead. Same for us all.

MJ's right. They're all dead, and what their final thoughts or actions were are totally irrelevant now.

When two people bump into each other on the street, often they both simultaneouosly say sorry out of politeness, most people dont stand their quibbling over who was right and wrong, even if one was clearly more at fault, becuase thats simple politeness. There are many values we have, asserting ones being right is one thing, but it isnt the ONLY thing in life. Sometimes, we defer to the greater picture, and sometiems, maintinaning good will is more important than your belief that you're right.

I respect the person who will abandon something they think they deserve for the greater good, or oiut of consideration for someone elses feeelings.

::I think I just lost respect for you, J. According to you, we live an hour apart. So you know I don't live in D.C. or NY. (Derf knows that for sure.) I personallyknow anybody who live in either cities. Yet, I felt a great deal of sympathy for these people.:: Benn

I thought people on this board would remember that I never go anywhere so I wouldn't have been in those dangerous situations.

::They’re not different in an IMPORTANT way.:: Savant

Importance is in the eye of the beholder.

::Thus, for someone to say they don’t care what others think, but they do care how they feel because of a sense of "pity" is false.:: Savant

No, sorry.

::How DARE you.:: Savant

There's no reason for me to say I was safe or ok or whatever because I was NOT THERE when those things happened.

::You don’t pity the people who died or were affected in the attack because you don’t live in NY or DC, but you pity people on a message board? Are you under the impression we all live in Texas?:: Savant

I feel sorry for people's families when they die and the person who dies, as long as they haven't committed suicide. I understand that many of them did not, but the possibility exists as someone pointed out to me before that they could have. The idea of suicide hadn't occurred to me until it was asked about here and I just answered honestly because it sounded plausible in the way it was asked.

::But when others post honest opinions that you take offense to, you feel THEY should, right?:: Savant

Only when it is an intended insult directly toward me or another person exactly at that person.

::A game? Fun? You evil little piece of worm-ridden FILTH.:: Savant

You don't come to this message board to have fun talking about things? Why do you come here?

::Tough s***t. Expect more of it, you living abortion.:: Savant

I think the time has come for the moderator to do some deleting as he said he would.

::You never have. Along with Peter, you are one of the biggest liars I’ve ever seen, and have NEVER displayed honesty in your discussions with others.:: Savant

Now you're the one making assumptions. If I had lied through my teeth saying that no one committed suicide in the WTC, you all would have never even commented to me, but after thought I could not say that with 100 percent honesty added to what I saw.

:: Ok, 1.) we all "sin", willingly or not:: MarkN

I know that, but willingly sinning is worse in intent because it usually means the person does not care or did it to spite God and also does not think they need forgiveness or want it in the first place.

::so why not just do all the rest of us a favor and never post on NC anymore?:: MarkN

I tried that a couple of years ago, but people kept encouraging me to come back.

::And what if you have no choice but to die in the way you're gonna anyway with no way out of it to prevent it and so you give in to it? Is that suicide? No. It's accepting the inevitable and unavoidable.:: MarkN

I know that is not suicide. You didn't take an action to end your life by yourself. BTW, your inability to be willing to make guesses about God or think you know anything for sure is scary to me as my willingness to do so is to you.

Well MJenkins, there *certainly* isn't room here for your condescending attitude, so why don't you just bugger off like Morgan?

I'm torn about how to respond, Machiko.

I am hurt. I am angry. I am disappointed. I am angry. I am angry. I am angry. I am angry.

Perhaps you should take a page from your own book and think before you speak.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps there are people on this board who have lost a loved one? Or that perhaps one of those people is myself?

*Deep breath*

I'm sorry that my responses seem immature to you. Looking back, I can certainly understand why you may interpret them that way. I have regularly engaged Jwb52z in the past with "silly verbal games."

However... In the past few weeks with regards to the events of September 11th, my conversations took a much darker, much more serious tone. And I don't understand why you can't recognize that. I don't understand how you can dismiss them as "silly verbal games." It's much deeper than that. Jwb52z has acknowledged that this is a game to him. But to others this is reality. this is the world we have to live in and struggle through.

I come to Nitcentral for amusement, true. And I have tried to maintain that level of amusement on the respective boards. But on this board (and others that deal with the tragedies), things are much more personal.

I don't know how much sense I'm making right now. And, no, I'm not thinking before speaking. But I am trying to restrain myself because I understand how inflammatory language interferes with my point. The things I have to say are easily dismissed when they're presented in an offensive fashion.

But at the same time I am really, really hurt.

I'm not sure that anyone can understand what I'm going through without experiencing it yourself.

I came to Nitcentral for amusement. And instead I get reminded of how callous and insensitive and downright evil people can be.

I have a cousin who is one of the confirmed dead in the Pentagon. I have an uncle from the other side of the family who is one of the 6000 missing people, and who is probably dead as well.

None of you knew this, I know. And I didn't feel it appropriate to say. I didn't want things to change. I am trying to return my life to some kind of "normalcy." I have received tremendous support from my friends, it has been such an outpouring that it makes me hopeful with regards to where we are as a country and as a species.

And though on the one hand I understand it may not be fair to expect you to act as if you knew this. But on the other hand I didn't want you to act differently. I wanted to preserve some sense of the status quo in my life. Unfortunately, the status quo includes people like Jwb52z who have no conception of what it is to be human.

As I've said before, my concern isn't as much for the fact that he gave his opinion on the matter. It's that after it has been pointed out that it was insensitive and hurtful, he continues to say it. And even goes further.

But as he said, this is all a game to him.

I wish he were right.

Anyhow, I'm digressing. I apologize for the snap remark. But at the moment I felt like I was living in some Bizarro World where genuine emotion and genuine pain was dismissed as "silly verbal games."

As I said, it may not be fair for me to expect you to know. But at the same time, I was disappointed (and still am to some degree) that you didn't figure out that this may be a possibility. That it wasn't immaturity, it was anger.

I was very much encouraged by the outpouring of concern from all around Nitcentral, whether you lived in New York and Washington or not. And I have taken a lot of those words to heart. And I'm not looking for pity. As I said, I want things to be "normal." Maybe I just wasn't entirely prepared for the sacrifices I had to make and the people I had to accept for things to be truly "normal."

Machiko, I apologize for snapping at you. But I am disappointed in you as well. I did and do feel that you dismissed me and my point of view. It saddens me that in your mind you automatically clump me in that category of people you deem immature and irresponsible.

Jwb52z, you are evil. And I currently despise you with every essence of my being. I don't necessarily care whether you care or not. or whether you agree with it or not. I know. And so do a lot of other people... including God (in whatever demented form you imagine Him in).

Mikey, while I know you and I have had our differences, let me offer my condolences for your loss. I am very sorry to hear it. Let me say, that though I do not personally know, or the people you have lost, I grief with you.

J,

"::I think I just lost respect for you, J. According to you, we live an hour apart. So you know I don't live in D.C. or NY. (Derf knows that for sure.) I personallyknow anybody who live in either cities. Yet, I felt a great deal of sympathy for these people.:: Benn

I thought people on this board would remember that I never go anywhere so I wouldn't have been in those dangerous situations." - Jwb

This is the last thing I'm saying in this matter. That is a cold, callous thing to say were you to ever think about it. The people who went to the World Trade Center on Tuesday, September 11th, 2001, did not go there thinking, "You know, maybe I shouldn't go. I could get killed at work." They were going to their jobs as they always have, feeling as safe and secure as you do going to school. They had no way of knowing they were at Ground Zero. They most certainly were not intentionally going into "a dangerous situation". Your response to my post implies that they were flirting with disaster. They weren't. They had no idea what hit them.

I'm out of here.

Mikey, I am truly sorry for your loss.

I don't want to get too deep into this, but I thought I'd pass along what I heard a Japanese specialist in crisis psychology say on TV. In a situation like the WTC attack, the human mind tends to focus on minute details to the exclusion of everything else. To some people in the buildings looking out the window, it would have been like seeing the pavement through the zoom lens of a camera. This would throw off their depth perception, making the ground seem much, much closer than it really was, which would prompt them to jump, thinking they had a pretty good chance of making it.

To me, this explanation really drove home the fact that we have not even begun to understand the complexities of the human mind. So I don't think it's fair for any of us to sit in judgement on any actions people might have taken in such a bizarre and unprecedented situation as the WTC attack. To us, sitting all cozy in our living rooms, it might have looked like those people had a one in a million chance of saving themselves at best, but for all we know, to them it could have looked more like a 50-50 or a 80-20 or even a 100% chance.

And maybe that's even the way God intended it to look to them. Perhaps it's his way of saying that even if there is only a one in billion chance of survival, he wants us to take it.

Mikey, I am very, very sorry. I wish I could say something that is both profound and original, but with all these numbers blaring me in the face...200...7,000....21,000...22,000...,and the display in the NY Port Authority Bus Terminal, which actually made me well up with tears, I'm totally speechless. But maybe it doesn't matter. I feel for you. And maybe if, in the other wise dark days you are now experiencing, there is a moment during the day when that shadow, that cloud of pain, lifts, if only for a moment, and you're able to think about a future where it won't hurt as much. Maybe that's me and all the other people trying to think good thoughts and feelings, and maybe you're receiving it. I don't know if any of what I just said makes sense. But it's all I have. I'm sorry. I would've preferre to email you, rather than make this post, somewhat more incoherent, I think, than I'm used to writing, on these boards, but I don't have your email. I don't know if you'll return to this board, given the hurtful things said on it, but if you do, I hope it's something.

God bless.


And Juli, your words were very comforting. God bless you.

Mikey, you have my deepest sympathies and condolences on your loss. You're the first person I've known to have actually lost someone in the attacks, so my heart really goes out to you and your family.

I thought people on this board would remember that I never go anywhere so I wouldn't have been in those dangerous situations." - Jwb

Hey, did it ever enter that small-mind of yours that not everyone knew that? I've posted many times on this board and elsewhere that I'm from Denver. Bu I still got e-mails from people asking if I was OK. And since unlike you I have compassion, I didn't insult them. I simply said I was OK. I wish I could remember what movie I saw this line from but; "It's called TACT muthafucka"

Mikey-

I am so sorry to hear about your cousin and your uncle. My heart (and, I'm sure, the hearts of most of us) goes out to you in your time of grief and sorrow. Words are inadequate to help at a time like this, but they are all I have to offer you. You are in our prayers.

::It's much deeper than that. Jwb52z has acknowledged that this is a game to him. But to others this is reality.:: Mikey

You didn't understand what I said. I said POSTING here was a game and something for me to have fun with. If posting here is your reality, maybe Machiko was right. The Internet is not reality for me even when it concerns a real topic.

::Unfortunately, the status quo includes people like Jwb52z who have no conception of what it is to be human.:: Mikey

Now that I know what I know, I'll just consider your words to be coming from a place of grief for the time being and ignore them. That will help.

::Jwb52z, you are evil. And I currently despise you with every essence of my being. I don't necessarily care whether you care or not. or whether you agree with it or not. I know. And so do a lot of other people... including God (in whatever demented form you imagine Him in).:: Mikey

I know the pain and grief have taken you from your proper mindset so I'll just ignore these offensive things for the time being. I hope you get better soon and I know you don't believe me but I mean that.

::They were going to their jobs as they always have, feeling as safe and secure as you do going to school.:: Benn

Oh, ever since those bomb warnings and school shootings and things started I never have felt safe even though this is a college/university.

Mikey,

I'm also sorry to hear about the members of your family that you've lost. I hope you and the rest of your family will find comfort and peace at this difficult time. TomM's right about it being hard to find adequate words... But we're all here if you need us.

The Internet is not reality for me even when it concerns a real topic. Jwb52z

I think that this is the real problem between Jwb and so many others posting on this topic. Although he understands,intellectually, that the events of Sept. 11 were true, and not fiction, experientially they are no more real to him than the events of Independence Day and the other posters are no more real to him than the characters in his favorite video game or television show.

There are lots of possible reasons for someone to be like this, not just that he is "evil" or has a "cold, unfeeling heart." Often it's due to chronic depression, or loneliness. Sometimes its simply that they never fully developed the skills of social interaction and the shared feelings that grow from friendship.

On a few occasions, Jwb has mentioned his (medical?) condition. I don't know what that condition is, but I gather that because of it he has not had the opportunity to enjoy what others would consider a full life. Something like that could lead to the problems I mentioned in the last paragraph.

I have know idea how much, if any of this is actually at the root of Jwb's "problem," but we should at least consider the possibility before we write him off as hateful and evil.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity.

TomM, the events are real to me. I just don't get all emotional about much of anything even if it is horrible.

::Sometimes its simply that they never fully developed the skills of social interaction and the shared feelings that grow from friendship.:: TomM

I understand what you're saying here, but it is difficult for me to have empathy with people I haven't seen or don't know. Once I see or know them, it becomes easier.

Despair would be the sin of beliving that you are beyond God's help, that you are irredeamable, and helpless. Since Suicide is the ultimate way of saying those things, that is what causes those things. Second, suicide is the murder of self. Dying in an attempt to save ones life or someone elses life is not suicide. Even voluntering to die for someone else is not suicide. Neither is martyrdom, as you are still being murdered by someone else, and you have a inalienable right to belive what you want.

What happens to people who committ suicide under tradition of Christianity is their soul goes to Hell. Ultimately God will judge their fate. It really dosen't matter what any of us think it's in his hands.

Jwb: I just don't get all emotional about much of anything even if it is horrible.

But "leader of the Borg" jokes just drive you nuts, right?

Anonymous, remember I said "much" not "nothing." Personal things upset me more than nonpersonal things.

I understand what you're saying here, but it is difficult for me to have empathy with people I haven't seen or don't know. Once I see or know them, it becomes easier.
J, I didn't know those people or their families, and yet I have great feelings for them. Why do you think that you have to know someone only in order to feel anything for them or their families if they've died in a horrific way, or even had some other awful event in their lives? As a so-called "Christian" (which you're obviously not) you're not a very kind, compassionate, considerate, loving person towards others just cuz you don't know them. You don't have to know someone in order to feel anything for them. Isn't that what being Christian means? If it is then hell, that makes me even more Christian than you!

::Why do you think that you have to know someone only in order to feel anything for them or their families if they've died in a horrific way, or even had some other awful event in their lives?:: MarkN

I have SOME empathy, but apparently not what most people would call a correct amount. It is not easy for me to empathise with strangers as well as people I know. I try, but it just doesn't happen.

Jwb-

I know what you mean, even if it does sound strange and cold to the others. I have been actively working on my own "problems' in the same area for over 30 years. I still cannot engage in "small talk" very well, and if given a choice, prefer to avoid any discussions that involve feelings rather than truths. It is one of the reasons that I became a fan of Star Trek, and especially seeing how Spock, and later Data, dealt with a similar situation.

Frankly I agree with everyone's assesment that Jwb is a heartless bastard. Beleiveing those poor people are going to brun in Hell, and actually SAYING it are two different things. There are some things better left unsaid, and anything that would further hurt those connected in one way or another to the tragedy of Spetember 11th is one of them.

Jwb: You should be pleased to know that after much consideration, I've decided NOT to delete your insensitive, heartless, mean-spirited posts.

My suggestion to you; even if you can't GO outside, at least look out the window.

Well Sax, Merry asked people their own views on the fate of those who leapt from the window. Maybe you should blame Merry for asking the question to which there were basically two answers if you could only stomach one of them and were angry that anyone gave another. Or better still, just tolerate and snigger at what you consider to be silly views.

Peter.

Or, the third alternative - "The Peter Method": "snigger at what you consider to be silly views", insult them, don't tolerate them, and wish they would drop dead.

Um, I didn't ask the orignal question, Peter.

Merry

Wow, Peter uses insults and untenable examples. Matt Pesti is rational but starting from scary premises. Jwb52z defines things as he defines them. Wow, I'm just a jerk who can't hold a candle to you guys. All hail the unholy trinity!!

Whoops, right you are. In my last message, read Margie for Merry.

Peter.

Actually, Peter, I do blame myself a bit for the ruckus I caused. I shouldn't have asked the question.

As many of you have undoubtedly concluded, I have avoided reading anything in this topic since my post in late September. And I wouldn't have revisited it had the header not been changed (I thought it was a new topic).

I have now read the posts that proceeded my last one. So I owe many of you a long overdue debt of gratitude...

Thanks to those of you (Benn, juli k, Luigi, MarkN, TomM, and Matt) who offered words of encouragement and support. Though I only read them a short while ago (and I hope you all understand why), the love fueling those words is no less powerful now than they were then. And it is truly encouraging to know that the dark figures who occasionally cast a shadow over our discussions are not merely balanced by the truly good people present in these boards... they are overwhelmed by them. And I'm not just speaking in number. For the meanings and motivations behind your words (each of you) are deeper, more heartfelt, and more sincere than the shallow, superficial tripe we are exposed to by those dark figures. No matter what religion you purport to belong to, each of you is a true Christian to me, in that you each are capable of putting yourselves second to others.

And I do not mean to exclude those of you who did not post words of encouragement. I am certain there are many of you who either didn't know what to say or who simply followed my request to keep things "normal", yet still directed a silent prayer towards me. So I would like to express my appreciation to you anonymous folk as well.

And I thank everyone for keeping this debate and the emotions associated with this debate on this board. It was nice to not be reminded of these unpleasantries on the other boards.

Margie, do not blame yourself or take responsibility for asking a sincere question. You could not have known what the consequences of that would be.

And despite what Peter is suggesting, it was not the answer to the question that became the issue. It was the unconsciounable way that Jwb52z continued to expound on his point after he knew that his answer offended people. It was the callous way that he took no measure of responsibility for hurting other people. It was the sadistic way that he (after being told he was hurtful) called this dialog a "game", as if we are all figures of fantasy and not real people with genuine feelings.

I don't think that anyone here blames you.

I, for one, thank you. Because your question served as a catalyst to expose some people for who and what they really are. By their responses (and for some people, a lack of a response), we learned a lot more about one another. And for most of us, I think we became better people for it.

and for some people, a lack of a response

If this is intended as a swipe at me, please say so, and explain why not posting makes me somehow a bad person. I now visit this board rarely, and only read a few topics when I do. I don't think you can make judgements about people from their not posting. Even if they saw the topic and felt strongly about something, if they felt they had nothing new to add, should they post anyway? Are members of this forum supposed to "check in" and register their feelings on the issues of the day? This is a Message Board, not a petition.

Indeed, when the internet is the discussion forum, you should be wary of any judgements even on the basis of posts people do make. If people in real life acted towards each other the way they did here, the US would be facing civil war.

Peter.

It wasn't a swipe at you, you dumb-ass. Not everything revolves around you you self-centered git. Get over yourself! And since you have atendency to only read portions of posts, I hope you read the "it wasn't a swipe at you" part, but odds suggest that any portion of that text that sounds remotely like an agreement or a defense will be ignored.

Peter, if you act the way you do here in real life, odds are you'd either be a mass of broken bones or dead.

::Sax Russel: Jwb: You should be pleased to know that after much consideration, I've decided NOT to delete your insensitive, heartless, mean-spirited posts.::

Whoa, hold the phone. A moderator NOT showing any guts and choosing NOT to delete or ban someone? I'm shocked.

::Peter: I don't think you can make judgements about people from their not posting. ::

Okay. But what about when they post ONLY to criticize and whine, and NOT to offer SOME words of sympathy? I dont' expect Elton John or Julia Roberts to show up here. And I don't expect people who only frequent the Music or LICC boards to show up here. But I find it quite telling that you DO come here, but steer clear when people are simply checking in to see if everyone else is all right, or to offer Mikey words of sympathy.

Your creative writing abilities must be extremely particular. You'll go on and on about some socio-political issue, but find yourself at a loss for words when something like what happened on 9.11 occurs? How unfortunate.

Mikey, you hang in there. Take care.

Before this gets out of control...

It was not a swipe against Peter.

I will let the person's own conscience determine who I was referring to.

But, Peter, I can make whatever judgements I deem necessary about anyone I like (and if you claim you don't, you're a liar).

And thank you, Captain O.