• Part 2 November 07 - 2:18 pm

We've all thought about this at some time or other, wondering what it'd be like, or what happens to the person's soul (to those that believe in it, at least), or what would drive someone to commit the act in the first place (there are a myriad of reasons). What are your opinions? I can imagine some responses to that but I'd still like to see others' ideas and opinions.

Myself, I dunno. I can't base it on a religious belief but I'm not sure I could on a nonreligious belief either. However, I do hope that, no matter how or why we each die, if we do have souls that they would go to a peaceful place of some sort. I'm open to the idea of souls, in part cuz I like reading real life ghost stories sometimes (well, I haven't in awhile), and some of them seem too weird or amateurishly written to be false, but again I'm open. Still, they make interesting and fun reading.

Suicide...a tough topic. I've had relatives that have wrestled with it, and believe you me, it's tough. The Bible talks of suicide, saying that prophets like Elijah and Jonah, at deep moments of depression, told God they wanted to die. However, I think suicide is wrong because it tells God "Hey! You're not the boss of me now!" It takes a person off of the set plan that God has set. But (in my mind) a person that is considering suicide is not thinking about it; they have a host of personal problems, and should require counseling.

BTW, this is not talking about assisted suicide/mercy killing.

The problem being, how do you know that God's plan definitively does not include people taking their own lives? And what about intentional martyrdom, which is, I think, a kind of suicide.

So, MikeC, do you believe in Free Will or Predestination?

Not a flame, truly curious. Your last post would seem to put you in the latter camp.

Free Willers and Predestinationist are tied with one minute to go in the fourth Quarter. (OK, so I stole that one from something I groked. Find me an original plot by Shakespeare.)

I don't find intentional martyrdom suicide, just like I don't find "sacrificing yourself to save another [something that God certainly knows about]" to really be suicide either. If you're talking about that, then no, that's different.

But suicide in which a person decides he/she doesn't want to live anymore, and hangs themselves. I'm just not seeing that as part of God's plan for anybody. (Then you get into the whole, "God works in mysterious ways" thing) I recently had a discussion about suicide with a Buddhist who informed me that his sect of Buddhism found it to be morally wrong as well.

I'm a fringer. I think that yes, all things are ordained by God, but it doesn't really matter to us--we still have free will. Does that make sense? Basically, I think God controls all, but I get sick of people that read too much into "predestination."

MikeC,

We are all predestined to have free will. (OK, I'll leave now.)

Theologically, that is, BTW, a fairly sound statement.

My response to the Free Will/Predestination question will be posted on the "Christianity" board

My father committed suicide and I'd like to believe that God in his infinite mercy gives my father the peace now that he never found in life.

Me too. God bless his soul, Del.

I believe that suicide is a sin and due to the fact that death occurs from it, you cannot be forgiven for it so consequently you go to Hell for it. It is the only unforgivable sin. You can't be forgiven, in most sects of Christianity, after you die because life is the time for those things.

It's called TACT Jwb. Learn it sometime.

"With tact like that, he'd make a lousy psychichatrist." -James T. Kirk

You took the words right out of my mouth, Charles.

J, that's *so* helpful to someone aching from the loss of a beloved parent or child...

A girlfriend of mine at school, who I think the world of, lost her 14-year-old brother to suicide.

FOURTEEN, J. He was a happy, spunky, loving kid by all accounts. I know for a fact my friend & this boy loved each other. They were very close.

He played football for our JV team, and everyone loved him.

Do you want to tell me--or my friend's family-- that he is burning in Hell?!!

Remember what he said about those people we all saw on live TV falling out of the WTC towers, some of whom probably jumped choosing a relatively quick death over being slowly cooked to oblivion? Then he had the nerve to blame his lakc of compassion on his medical condition. Yeah, spinabifida sucks and all but it si NOT an excuse to be a tactless person(didn't want to say person, but had to to avoid being dumped).

With my emotional post out of the way..

Some people are simply incapable of adapting to whatever life throws at them. They don't know how to deal with it.

Assisted suicide?

Go to my friend's site for a good essay on it.

One: J's entitled to his opinions and views.

Two: We're all entitled to disagree with them.

Three: J, please do use tact in expressing yourself, or don't say anything at all. It's very inconsiderate and rude to make such comments to someone whose loved one has taken their own life. It's a tough enough time having to deal with that awful experience and being told that their loved ones are going to hell cuz of suicide really doesn't help them in their grief at all. I'm not saying that you're a bad person because I don't believe you are, but you are responsible for what you say, so please take into consideration other people's feelings before you post your messages, ok? Believe what you will, that's your right, but it's not right to criticize why someone's loved one did the deed, or to say what'll happen to their soul if they do because frankly no one actually knows what'll happen, despite personal beliefs on the matter. If that's the only thing one person can say to another in such a hard time as this then it's best to simply not say anything at all.

Fourth: I'd like to ask everyone to let this end now because I don't want this thread to turn into a flamewar against Jwb. He's made his point, some of us have made ours, no need to keep harping back and forth on it. Discuss suicide in general, and if it helps you in a cathartic way to relate a story of a loved one's suicide then by all means do so. In fact, I'd rather that this be a board that can help someone deal with this awful experience in any way possible without any fear of having rude comments about it. So, if anyone does tell such a story then let's all be respectful and offer condolences or other such positive feedback to help them get through their grief. Otherwise, don't say anything at all. Suicide is a tough enough experience to get through and negative comments (which can basically either be ad hominem attacks or border on it) won't help the matter any at all.

Jwb52z,

Your problem is similar to mine. Sometimes humor can be accidentally offensive. On more than one occasion I have said something like, "Your mother wears army boots," and got the a reply like, "My mother died two days ago, you heartless so and so."

You saw darkness and struck a match. Now you see you are in the TNT storage room. It ain't your fault. The match is probably valid. You and the match do not want to ignite anything. You are right to shed a little light on the subject.

Extinguish the match anyway and back away slowly.

Everyone else,

Let him back away. The longer he argues the validity of his match the better the chance burns his fingers and drops it.

Del: My father committed suicide and I'd like to believe that God in his infinite mercy gives my father the peace now that he never found in life.

Jwb: I believe that suicide is a sin and due to the fact that death occurs from it, you cannot be forgiven for it so consequently you go to Hell for it. It is the only unforgivable sin. You can't be forgiven, in most sects of Christianity, after you die because life is the time for those things.

So you're putting limits on G-d's love and mercy? Interesting, considering that the G-d of the NT is a G-d of Love, whereas the G-d of the OT is one of Justice.

::J, that's *so* helpful to someone aching from the loss of a beloved parent or child...:: Hanna F

I wasn't even attempting to speak to the person who lost a parent.

::Do you want to tell me--or my friend's family-- that he is burning in Hell?!!:: Hanna F

I never said it was good or nice or pleasant. I just think it is true. I never said I like it being that way either.

::Then he had the nerve to blame his lakc of compassion on his medical condition. Yeah, spinabifida sucks and all but it si NOT an excuse to be a tactless person(didn't want to say person, but had to to avoid being dumped).:: Dude

I never blamed anything on a condition. You misinterpret things. So, you all think saying what you think is tactless just because it might upset someone?

::Some people are simply incapable of adapting to whatever life throws at them. They don't know how to deal with it.:: Hanna F

Why don't those people go to therapy if they can?

::It's very inconsiderate and rude to make such comments to someone whose loved one has taken their own life.:: MarkN

Again, I was not talking to the person who lost someone. I was simply saying what I think about suicide. It was not directed at anyone. I used no one's name or anything of the kind. I would have mentioned a person if I were intending to tell any one individual anything.

::So you're putting limits on G-d's love and mercy? Interesting, considering that the G-d of the NT is a G-d of Love, whereas the G-d of the OT is one of Justice.:: ScottN

God is also a God of Jealousy and fire and punishment in the Bible. God doesn't mince words about unrepentent sin. You go to Hell for it.

That's one belief, Jwb, but of course not everyone agrees with it. And yes, you didn't specify anyone in particular and I recognized that when I said you had your beliefs. However...

So, you all think saying what you think is tactless just because it might upset someone?
Not in of itself, no, but just how you sometimes write your words. True, we don't have the benefit of seeing you in person, hearing your inflections and seeing your gesticulations and so on to help us better understand your meaning so misunderstandings (and possible flamings) don't run rampant online, but like I said you're still responsible for what you write and should think how it may be taken by others. You're not responsible for how someone may take your words, just that you should try to see how they might. Understand? If you're living with someone else then if possible let them read the posts you're replying to and what you'd like to say in response. They'll probably see something in your tone that you may not. Trust me, it helps a lot.

Interesting, considering that the G-d of the NT is a G-d of Love, whereas the G-d of the OT is one of Justice.

As our chaplain put it once, it's YHWH the Lord of Hosts vs. Jesus the day care worker.

God is also a God of Jealousy and fire and punishment in the Bible. God doesn't mince words about unrepentent sin. You go to Hell for it.

This is the wrong board for this type of discussion, methinks, since we've moved off the topic of suicide and onto the general idea of "what happens to sinners who didn't go to confession?" (And yes, I know you're not Catholic, and neither am I, but it was the first image I got.)

Agreed, Matt. Let's please keep this on-topic from now on, ok, folks?

Why do you consider suicide the only unforgiveable sin, Jwb? What if a believer, in a moment of depression, kills him/herself? (not a flame--genuinely curious)

MikeC, you have to be able to ask for forgiveness for a sin to be forgiven. You can't ask for forgiveness for a sin until after you have done it and it is finished. Under almost every sect of Christianity, the time for forgiveness is during life. The end of suicide is death if successful. Consequently, you can't be forgiven for successful suicide because you die from it. You CAN, however, ask for forgiveness for an attempt that doesn't succeed.

By your statement, you state that our sins are not forgiven unless we ask for forgiveness first. Are you saying that we have to ask forgiveness for individual sins as they happen before they are forgiven? So, like if I died and I never asked for forgiveness for using the Lord's name in vain, would the Lord condemn me to Hell?

I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm just trying to get a bear down on what you believe in.

::Are you saying that we have to ask forgiveness for individual sins as they happen before they are forgiven?:: MikeC

I believe you should for as many as you can. I know no one can remember everyrhing they have ever done wrong. That's what grace is for in the first place, or at least one of them.

::So, like if I died and I never asked for forgiveness for using the Lord's name in vain, would the Lord condemn me to Hell?:: MikeC

It is possible. If you're not trying to live properly and not truly sorry for doing wrong things, yes I believe you'll go to Hell.

So, basically God suffers from a learning disorder that prevents him from knowing the difference betwen some guy using his name in vain after dropping something on his foot and a guy who genuinely hates him? Sounds like your God needs to go back to school, like now, otherwise ALL of us are Hell bound.

God is smart enough to know the difference between the malicious and the inoculous(sp?), despite what the pontiffs seem to want you to believe. I once said this in a now defunct religious chat room. 'God knows you didn't throw that bag off the top of the ESB that killed that guy, you got shoved by some drunk tourist and you hit the bag by coincidence! You are not going to hell so don't panic already!' You'd think I'd have gotten at least one compliment for my brilliant observation that God isn't as dumb as his more devout followers seem to think. You'd be wrong. Roughly 90% of what was said cannot be posted here becuase of those little red dots.

I believe that by believing Jesus died for our sins and rose again, we are saved. That is basically a clean sweep of our sins away--past, present, and future. We are not condemned anymore if we have truly accepted God.

I do think it is good to pray to God and repent sins that you have committed--I try to do that in nightly prayers, and I think it's what Christians should do. But I don't do this out of fear, like God's going to blast me to Hell or write my name out of the Book of Life (hmm...that's an interesting topic--losing your salvation) if I don't confess. I do it because I want to do what God wants me to do.

::So, basically God suffers from a learning disorder that prevents him from knowing the difference betwen some guy using his name in vain after dropping something on his foot and a guy who genuinely hates him? Sounds like your God needs to go back to school, like now, otherwise ALL of us are Hell bound.:: Dude

To God, all sin is the same. Man is the one who makes distinctions.

::I believe that by believing Jesus died for our sins and rose again, we are saved. That is basically a clean sweep of our sins away--past, present, and future. We are not condemned anymore if we have truly accepted God.:: MikeC

That's like saying you can do whatever the hell you want after you are saved from that point on wwithout any consequences from God. I doubt you really meant that. At least, I hope you didn't mean that. Well, I spoke too soon I think. After your second paragraph that appears to be exactly what you think. I can't say I agree. I can't believe that Salvation is like a carte blanche to do what you like. BTW, what do you think happens to people who sin after they are "saved" who sin? You think it is ok and they don't have to repent? You think God says it is ok and they can go to Heaven anyway?

Well, Jwb, as you're probably aware people will do anything they think is ok as long as they justify it (in their own minds, that is) by saying God will forgive them for it. At least that's their excuse and they're sticking to it. Of course they're wrong but try telling them that.

I will probably burn in the fires for all eternity for this, but...Dumped a post by "Jehovah".

Mark Morgan, maybe you should dump a few posts by Allah and Zoroaster to make up for it.

Jwb, salvation isn't a carte blanche. You're right. But it isn't a system of "you must ask for forgiveness after each and every sin else you will be immediately sent to hell without a get out of hell free card." I don't believe that. I believe that yes, God is awesome. Yes, God cannot be mocked. Yes, you must repent your sins. But you make it sound like God is just waiting for believers to sin so He can kick them out (losing salvation?).

About your question, all believers sin. I sin. My pastor sins. Just because my sins are forgiven doesn't mean I don't sin. Yes, I do repent them. But the beauty of salvation is that it forgives future sins and sins that you don't even know about. My pastor said that being a Christian doesn't mean you don't sin, it means that you actually try to correct your sins. I think that's where I actually stand. As a believer, you still have sin, but you have to repent it.

But does that mean if a believer DOESN'T repent, he's sent to Hell? I don't believe that. The Bible talks of people just escaping Hell like coming through the flames. I think those are people with the belief, but some lingering sins that they grappled with throughout life. Maybe we need to be sure we're on the same wavelength with "repent." I define it as having remorse for your actions, and confessing it to God, and making an effort to change. Yeah, you should still repent even after you accept salvation. But I believe that we shouldn't get bogged down in the sins we've done, we should strive to do better.

I will probably burn in the fires for all eternity for this, but...Dumped a post by "Jehovah". Mark Morgan

Saying the J-word can be counted as a suicide attempt. Wanna buy a packet of gravel?

::Yes, you must repent your sins. But you make it sound like God is just waiting for believers to sin so He can kick them out (losing salvation?).:: MikeC

You, on the other hand, make it sound like you can't lose Salvation once you have it no matter what. I don't think that's true.

::But the beauty of salvation is that it forgives future sins and sins that you don't even know about.:: MikeC

I understand about the sins you might have forgotten about, but you can't be forgiven for something you haven't done yet because you havne't done it to be forgiven for yet. You don't need to be forgiven for something if you never did it.

::My pastor said that being a Christian doesn't mean you don't sin, it means that you actually try to correct your sins. I think that's where I actually stand. As a believer, you still have sin, but you have to repent it.:: MikeC

I agree with that.

::But does that mean if a believer DOESN'T repent, he's sent to Hell? I don't believe that. The Bible talks of people just escaping Hell like coming through the flames. I think those are people with the belief, but some lingering sins that they grappled with throughout life. Maybe we need to be sure we're on the same wavelength with "repent." I define it as having remorse for your actions, and confessing it to God, and making an effort to change. Yeah, you should still repent even after you accept salvation. But I believe that we shouldn't get bogged down in the sins we've done, we should strive to do better.:: MikeC

I agree with what you say except I believe that any sin you willingly don't repent of will cause you to go to Hell. The Bible does say that no sin can enter Heaven. Of course, I also see it as you sending yourself to Hell or Heaven by your own actions, not exactly God condemning you. God set up the rules, we just have to decide to obey or not and that itself determines our destination.

Jwb--

I'm curious, how do you reconcile your statement:
I believe that suicide is a sin and due to the fact that death occurs from it, you cannot be forgiven for it so consequently you go to Hell for it. It is the only unforgivable sin. You can't be forgiven, in most sects of Christianity, after you die because life is the time for those things.
with Mark 3:28-30 and Luke 12:10 where Jesus says that the unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? The context makes it clear that he is talking about people who clearly see the Spirit of God working in another person's life and claim that it is the work of a devil.

I believe that by believing Jesus died for our sins and rose again, we are saved. That is basically a clean sweep of our sins away--past, present, and future. We are not condemned anymore if we have truly accepted God. MikeC

That's like saying you can do whatever the hell you want after you are saved from that point on wwithout any consequences from God. I doubt you really meant that. At least, I hope you didn't mean that. Well, I spoke too soon I think. After your second paragraph that appears to be exactly what you think. I can't say I agree. I can't believe that Salvation is like a carte blanche to do what you like. BTW, what do you think happens to people who sin after they are "saved" who sin? You think it is ok and they don't have to repent? You think God says it is ok and they can go to Heaven anyway?

I believe (and from what he's written here I think that mike also so believes) that Salvation is a process whereby we allow the Spirit of God to begin to change our nature. We do not become perfect in this life, but we are transformed. There are still temptations, and we will stumble and fall, but the Spirit of God can use the experience to make us stronger against the next temptation.

Paul, in his letter to the Romans, chapter 6, addresses the "paradox" of the apparent "carte blanche":
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin : but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yeah, that's what I believe, Tom. I think I actually agree with Jwb on most of what he has said. On the matter of losing your salvation, this is a point of debate in our church (we have several pastors--not all of them agree). It's an interesting thing to consider, but when you get down to it, I guess only God knows for sure. All I know is that we are forgiven purely by God's grace yet we have a responsibility. (kind of like the "faith without works is dead"--you don't NEED works to have faith, yet if you don't show works, you're probably without faith--maybe you don't NEED continual repentance to have salvation, yet if you don't repent as a believer, you might not really be one--does that make sense?).

::I'm curious, how do you reconcile your statement:
I believe that suicide is a sin and due to the fact that death occurs from it, you cannot be forgiven for it so consequently you go to Hell for it. It is the only unforgivable sin. You can't be forgiven, in most sects of Christianity, after you die because life is the time for those things.
with Mark 3:28-30 and Luke 12:10 where Jesus says that the unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? The context makes it clear that he is talking about people who clearly see the Spirit of God working in another person's life and claim that it is the work of a devil.:: TomM

Simply because you can't be forgiven for a sin unless you have done it already and the successful suicide causes death and after death there's no room for anymore time for forgiveness. You have to ask for forgiveness and be sorry for what you have done when you sin to be forgiven.

::Paul, in his letter to the Romans, chapter 6, addresses the "paradox" of the apparent "carte blanche"::: TomM

That's why I was calling MikeC on his apparent belief in having a carte blanche.

::All I know is that we are forgiven purely by God's grace yet we have a responsibility. (kind of like the "faith without works is dead"--you don't NEED works to have faith, yet if you don't show works, you're probably without faith--maybe you don't NEED continual repentance to have salvation, yet if you don't repent as a believer, you might not really be one--does that make sense?).:: MikeC

EXACTLY!!

Good, maybe we're in agreement, it's just the syntax element (although I might still have a quibble over the suicide thing that Tom brought up).

Simply because you can't be forgiven for a sin unless you have done it already and the successful suicide causes death and after death there's no room for anymore time for forgiveness.

Why? Since when is God bothered by a piddling thing like time?

Matthew, the Bible says that "man is to die once and then there is judgement." That leaves no space for anything else such as more time for forgiveness.

Time for a couple of hypotheticals:

1) Jane becomes despondent and slits her wrists. As she lies there waiting to die, she repents and asks forgiveness, but she is too weak to save herself. Fortunately her roommate comes home unexpectedly early and finds her. She gets to the hospital and gets a transfusion, and recovers. We both agree that because she repented, she is forgiven.

2) Joe becomes despondent and slits his wrists. As he lies there waiting to die, he repents and asks forgiveness, but he is too weak to save himself. Since he lives alone, no one comes in time to rescue him. Are you claiming that because no one rescued him, his repentance does not count the same as Jane's?

There is almost always time between the act that is the one that causes the sin to be imputed to the sinner and the sinner's death, even in the case of suicide. We do not know if they repented during that time, only God and the sinner knows that.

My point in quoting Paul is that Paul agrees with the fact that the doctrine of Grace does sound like God is giving us permission to ignore His Law, but only if you look at the doctrine from the outside, as someone still under the Law, and see God the way children see Santa Claus, as someone who keeps a huge list of who is "naughty," and who is "nice." As someone under Grace, you no longer are "bound in" by the "rules," but neither are you someone who feels free to run amok. You have the Spirit of God within you helping you to make the right decisions, not because of God's rules, but because of God's nature.

May I remind you of the thief on the cross that while dying, acknowledged Jesus as God, and was told by no one less than Jesus that he would go to paradise?

I would still quibble over suicide as being the unforgiveable sin (like if a believer, in a fit of depression, kills him/herself?), but I agree with Jwb on the regards that life is the time for finding God. After you die, it's too late.

::2) Joe becomes despondent and slits his wrists. As he lies there waiting to die, he repents and asks forgiveness, but he is too weak to save himself. Since he lives alone, no one comes in time to rescue him. Are you claiming that because no one rescued him, his repentance does not count the same as Jane's?:: TomM

Yes, because you can't be forgiven for an act you have done until you have done it. You haven't committed suicide until you are dead. You only attempted it.

::May I remind you of the thief on the cross that while dying, acknowledged Jesus as God, and was told by no one less than Jesus that he would go to paradise?:: MikeC

That's not suicide.

Matthew, the Bible says that "man is to die once and then there is judgement." That leaves no space for anything else such as more time for forgiveness.

I don't think you quite see my point here. Of course no *person* could forgive someone else in advance for something that other person has yet to do. However, by *definition*, God should theoretically be able to do so. Whether he *will* is the question we're trying to answer, but it's fairly obvious that he at least *could*.

So you're saying that Joe would go to Hell? I don't get it. Let's say that Joe is depressed. He stabs himself. While he is dying, he realizes that he needs God, he restores his faith, and he repents and accepts Jesus. Then, he dies. By your logic, Joe would go to Hell. So, if I'm dying, and I accidentally close with a curse word, I'd better hurry up and repent it, else I would go to Hell?

Yeah, I know the thief didn't commit suicide, I was just trying to show that even on death, your eternal state can change (which could also support your point).

*takes a deep breath*

Let's say Chris (I'm not creative when I'm in pain, gimme a break) lived a good life, and they worshipped God, etc., and always asked forgiveness from sin.

For some reason beyond his control, he becomes depressed and despondent. He lost his rationale and his self-control, and kills himself.

Chris had always gone to church, prayed, etc., and led a life virtually sin-free. When he did sin, he asked forgiveness.

Is Chris burning in Hell because of his sheer desperation? Would God not know what was going through his mind, and forgive him? Would He not take into consideration Chris's life, and how he worshipped Him?

::So you're saying that Joe would go to Hell? I don't get it. Let's say that Joe is depressed. He stabs himself. While he is dying, he realizes that he needs God, he restores his faith, and he repents and accepts Jesus. Then, he dies. By your logic, Joe would go to Hell. So, if I'm dying, and I accidentally close with a curse word, I'd better hurry up and repent it, else I would go to Hell?:: MikeC

I am saying that a sin is not committed until it is completed as far as being able to be forgiven for it. You can't be forgiven for something you haven't done because there's no reason to need forgiveness for what you haven't done. Yes, even a Christian would go to Hell for suicide even in that situation.

::For some reason beyond his control, he becomes depressed and despondent. He lost his rationale and his self-control, and kills himself.:: Hannah F.

Unless a person is insane or has some other mental disorder causing them to do this, they would go to Hell. Being sad is not a good enough reason.

I'm ignoring this discussion except for CC's post. My apologies if anyone brought up that Texan in the 60's who climbed the bell tower at some university and started shooting people. (He knew he wouldn't get out alive so ignoring the murder part it is suicide.) An autopsy on him revealed a brain tumor pressing up on some brain lobe. Supposedly he wasn't in control of his actions. (No, I'm not a neurologist and current theory may hold that wasn't true -- I'm remembering a documentary that was in black and white.)

Just curious Jwb52z, if you have a note from the mortician that performed your autopsy, can Jesus forgive you?

::Is Chris burning in Hell because of his sheer desperation? Would God not know what was going through his mind, and forgive him? Would He not take into consideration Chris's life, and how he worshipped Him?:: Hanna F.

With this thinking all a person would have to do is have a greater percentage of good done by that person than bad during life. I don't believe it works that way.

::He knew he wouldn't get out alive so ignoring the murder part it is suicide.:: Blue Berry

Suicide is when you kill yourself. Someone killing you is not suicide. Knowing someone will kill you for what you do and doing it anyway is not suicide.

::Supposedly he wasn't in control of his actions.:: Blue Berry

If that's true, the person can't be held responsible for anything that he has done.

In my hypotheticals, the action that was the sin happened at the time Joe/Jane slashed his/her wrists. Then, later, he/she repented. At that point, everything was exactly the same, and there was nothing Joe/Jane could do to change his/her fate. Are you saying that Jane was forgiven only because her roommate was already coming home? Or that God is going to wait to see if you recover to decide whether it was suicide which He will not forgive, or only attempted suicide, which He will?

::In my hypotheticals, the action that was the sin happened at the time Joe/Jane slashed his/her wrists. Then, later, he/she repented. At that point, everything was exactly the same, and there was nothing Joe/Jane could do to change his/her fate. Are you saying that Jane was forgiven only because her roommate was already coming home? Or that God is going to wait to see if you recover to decide whether it was suicide which He will not forgive, or only attempted suicide, which He will?:: TomM

I consider them 2 different sins. The first was an attempted suicide that failed. She could be forgiven because it didn't result in death. The second person could not because he died. In the second case, the sin was not completed until he died. It wasn't just an attempt. He succeeded in what he wanted to do. I just don't agree that they are the same sin. He could be forgiven for the attempt, but not for the success.

Again, that the two situations had different outcomes was totally beyond the control of the person who sinned. I know that this is not what you mean to say, but you seem to be saying that the only reason Joe is not forgiven is because he did not have a roommate to look out for him, the way that Jane did. Up until Jane's roommate came home, the situations were identical, including the repentance. Both repented and would have done anything to save themselves physically, but it was too late.

Or are you saying that Joe committed two sins, the slitting of his wrists and then the dying? Yes, Joe did die as a result of his own actions, but the actions were (presumably) forgiven when he repented, just as Jane's were, so where was the second sin?

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This is why I quoted Paul above. You seem to still be rooted in God-as-Santa-Claus, placing our name in the "naughty" column when we sin, and returning them to the "nice" column when we repent.

But we are no longer under the Law, but under Grace. Christ died once for all, and all who call upon His name are saved. At the time we were saved, we entered into a different relationship with God. Our salvation no longer depends on our attempts at avoiding sin, and repenting and atoning when we fail (not that it ever did, because by that standard, no one is righteous before God), but on Christ's sacrifice and the working of the Spirit of God in our lives.

You said yourself that "To God, all sin is the same. Man is the one who makes distinctions," and yet you are the one splitting hairsover whether the same action is a pardonable sin or an unpardonable one.

I don’t have much to say about suicide, but the discussion so far has caused me to ponder the nature of repentance quite a bit. One the one hand, we obviously don’t have the capacity to recognize and ask forgiveness for each and every little sin we commit each day (though if we are in tune with the Holy Spirit, we should become progressively more sensitive and aware in that regard). More importantly, we are simply unable to perfectly live all God’s commandments, and naturally cannot be saved on our own merit, which of course makes the Atonement of Christ essential. It is of course his grace that saves us, and not our own works.

But on the other hand, we shouldn’t take things to the other extreme by saying that because Christ paid for our sins, we don’t need to take thought for our sins, or that we can simply coast through life doing whatever we please and make a quick resolution with God minutes before death. Let me make clear that I don’t think anyone here has taken that extreme position, and I’m not any accusations to that effect. If someone did say as much, though, I must have missed it.

I’ve heard it argued that faith is all one needs for Christ’s mercy to take effect, most notably with references to our buddy Paul in Romans 3:28 – "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." That shouldn’t be taken out of context, if that argument is made. Paul says we can’t boast in our works, because it’s not our obedience to the law that saves us. Our obedience to the law is imperfect. No number of "burnt offerings" we may make will change that, so the works alone don’t save us. But the faith in Christ that does save us is of course more than a simple belief in Christ and his sacrifice for us. MikeC appropriately quoted from James chapter 2, that "faith without works is dead." We obviously don’t have much faith in God if we remain unwilling to be obedient to God and do righteous works. True faith is faithfulness, not just confidence and trust in God, but steadfastness, loyalty, reliability. We can’t be perfect, but we are expected to do our best, and that includes repenting of all our sins and trying sincerely not to repeat them. It involves always seeking to do God’s will, so yes, we certainly have to give thought to our sins, and to repentance.

That said, one thing I was pondering was the scenario of the person committing suicide, and then realizing his/her sin before dying and repenting. I won’t claim that’s impossible, as only God would know everything the person is thinking, but I think it’s a mistake to believe that repentance is necessarily something easy, especially in the case of serious sins along the lines of suicide. Decisions to do such a thing don’t generally happen in a second, and I think it takes more than a second to make repentance. Repentance is more than thinking, "Boy, that was dumb of me. I’m sorry I did it." What about restitution? It’s very much an Old Testament concept, but it’s hardly obsolete. What about having "godly sorrow" (2 Cor 7:8-10)? What about the "broken and contrite heart" (Psalms 51:17)? What about bringing forth "fruits meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8) or "works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20)? Say, look at that! Paul’s advocating works! These things take time. Can people about to die from having committed suicide make proper repentance? I don’t know with certainty, but if they can, it can’t be easy. I really don’t see how.

And lastly, if you’ll all permit me an indulgence (though not the 13th-14th century kind of indulgence ):

"I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them." (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4:6-10)

Welcome back, Matt. You've been missed.

What about restitution? It?s very much an Old Testament concept, but it?s hardly obsolete. What about having "godly sorrow" (2 Cor 7:8-10)? What about the "broken and contrite heart" (Psalms 51:17)? What about bringing forth "fruits meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8) or "works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20)? Say, look at that! Paul?s advocating works! [] These things take time. Can people about to die from having committed suicide make proper repentance? I don?t know with certainty, but if they can, it can?t be easy. I really don?t see how.

My examples were, as I said, hypothetical. They were chosen specifically to examine Jwb's contention that suicide is unforgivable. We simply do not know the hearts of other real people well enough to know if they can or did repent, and if they obtained Salvation.

The contrition, restitution, etc that you ask about are, in the normal course of a Christian life essential. They are the manifestation of the Spirit of God working in our lives to change our natures, and as such are just as much fruit of the Spirit as "love, joy, peace, ..., goodness, righteousness and truth." (Galatians 5:22-23 and Ephesians 5:9). And that fruit is made manifest in the Christian's life and can be discerned by others (cf Matt 7:16-20)

I pretty much agree with you on repentance there, Matt.

Jwb52z,

This just arequest of clarification of your views. (Before he gets attacked for his answer please keep in mind he is speaking generally and about his views. Despite what anyone says you are free to believe whatever you want.)

Several Saints were martyred. They were told, "renounce the Jesus thing or we will use you for target practice." It was not unclear that they would die if they continued with their actions. Do you term that suicide?

More currently, I think there was a nun in Austria who helped Jews during the Holocaust. A SS man told her to stop it or be killed. She didn't stop it. They killed her. Was not stoping suicide on her part?

::, but the actions were (presumably) forgiven when he repented:: TomM

You can't repent of a sin until you have done it and you haven't completed suicide until you are dead. After you are dead you can't be forgiven. That's the difference. It's not because he didn't have a roommate, it was because he succeeded. Even if he changed his mind half way through and regretted it, he still did it.

::This is why I quoted Paul above. You seem to still be rooted in God-as-Santa-Claus, placing our name in the "naughty" column when we sin, and returning them to the "nice" column when we repent.:: TomM

I don't believe that you can be right in the eyes of God without following the letter of God's Word.

:: Our salvation no longer depends on our attempts at avoiding sin:: TomM

No sin can enter Heaven so I would say that you are not correct here.

::You said yourself that "To God, all sin is the same. Man is the one who makes distinctions," and yet you are the one splitting hairsover whether the same action is a pardonable sin or an unpardonable one.:: TomM

I was talking about in the sense of punishment God treats all sin the same. I do think He treats all sin the same, but the thing is there are different sins. They are all sin, but they are still different actions. One can't be the others. You can't be forgiven for a sin after death which is why suicide is not forgivable.

::Several Saints were martyred.:: Blue Berry

Just so you know, I, and most sects of Christianity, do not believe in the concept of sainthood.

::It was not unclear that they would die if they continued with their actions. Do you term that suicide?:: Blue BErry

No, that is dying for a cause. You have to do it yourself for it to be suicide. Except in relation to dying to save someone else or for God, I don't like that situation either.

::Was not stoping suicide on her part?:: Blue Berry

No, she died helping others. She was murdered.

Jwb52z,

That is why I used the capital "S" on saints. Of course we know protestants hate When the Saints Go Marching In

So pointing a squirt gun at a cop and yelling "BANG" is not suicide. It is justifiable homicide. (I still don't reccomend pointing gun looking things at armed people.)

:: Our salvation no longer depends on our attempts at avoiding sin:: TomM

No sin can enter Heaven so I would say that you are not correct here. -- Jwb

Then I would submit to you that, if salvation depends on our attempts at avoiding sin (as you seem to be saying by stating that Tom is incorrect), *nobody* is receiving salvation. By our nature, we cannot help but sin.

::Several Saints were martyred.:: Blue Berry

Just so you know, I, and most sects of Christianity, do not believe in the concept of sainthood. -- Jwb

Of course, the sect that *does* believe in the concept of sainthood - namely, Catholicism - also happens to be the *biggest* in the world, with somewhere around one billion members and continually growing.

Anyway, I don't see that it matters if you accept the definition of sainthood or not, for the purposes of this discussion. And that's a different board anyway.

Just so you know, I, and most sects of Christianity, do not believe in the concept of sainthood. Jwb52z

Actually it would be more correct to say that most Protestant sects have a different concept of sainthood from the popular one partially derived from Catholicism. The word "saint" appears several times in the Bible, where it is used to indicate the members of the Church. Most Protestant sects likewise use it to indicate the members of the Church. Biographies of martyrs are often called "Lives of the Saints" as much because of this definition as the "Catholic" one (someone officially recognized by the church as having attained Heaven [and often various specific duties and powers as well]). Besides, it was clear what Berry was asking, and that he was not necessarily requiring that you agree with his understanding of the word "saint."

In any event taking more "time" to quibble with that one word than you took on answering the actual question makes it appear that you are less sure of what you believe about the actual question.

And Berry, I'm not entirely sure that the question was fair (unless you yourself are not sure about the issue, in which case I apologize, and we can discuss it on the Martyrdom board). Neither Jwb nor anyone else has even hinted that facing certain death in a good cause (even when there are ways to escape that are not totally dishonorable) is or can be considered to be suicide Sometimes you have to be true to a higher calling despite the mandate to self-preservation.

So pointing a squirt gun at a cop and yelling "BANG" is not suicide. It is justifiable homicide. [] (I still don't reccomend pointing gun looking things at armed people. [] )

If you can equate martyrdom with this ill-considered plan, then maybe you really don't understand the difference! Then again the smilies might mean that you're just trying to get a rise out of someone, a practice that might be considered to be starting to border on trolling.

::Then I would submit to you that, if salvation depends on our attempts at avoiding sin (as you seem to be saying by stating that Tom is incorrect), *nobody* is receiving salvation. By our nature, we cannot help but sin.:: Matthew Patterson

The thing is that we should ATTEMPT not to as best we can and not do it willingly.

:: Of course, the sect that *does* believe in the concept of sainthood - namely, Catholicism - also happens to be the *biggest* in the world, with somewhere around one billion members and continually growing.:: Matthew Patterson

I could insert here at thsi juncture what alot of sects think of Catholicism, but I won't.

::Besides, it was clear what Berry was asking, and that he was not necessarily requiring that you agree with his understanding of the word "saint.":: TomM

I know that, but I was simply putting it "on record." As for the question, being a martyr is not suicide. It's just letting yourself be killed. Suicide is when you actively kill yourself, or if you're an invalid someone helps you. Also, of course, for it to be suicide instead of just the attempt, you have to die from it.

Waitaminute.

"Suicide is when you actively kill yourself..."

So you're saying that if I find out that I have cancer, that it can be treated with chemotherapy, and that I can live a lot longer than a year or so - and I choose to not undergo the procedure - then it's not suicide? Because I passively let me die?

Am I reading that right?

The thing is that we should ATTEMPT not to as best we can and not do it willingly.

I don't think that anyone's arguing that we shouldn't, but you made it sound as though our success is the key determining factor.

So you're saying that if I find out that I have cancer, that it can be treated with chemotherapy, and that I can live a lot longer than a year or so - and I choose to not undergo the procedure - then it's not suicide? Because I passively let me die? Machiko

Ah! That is one of the points of the "Death with Dignity" debate. Is it suicide to refuse "extraordinary" tratment? and how do you decide what is "extraordinary"? There are Jehovah's Witnesses who will choose to die of blood loss before they accept a transfusion.

Personally, I feel that if basic needs (food and water) are not included in what is withheld, and the patient is the one who requests it, it is between the patient, her doctor and her God, and none of my business unless she specifically asks my advice. It may or may not be suicide, but I have no way of knowing .

(The other point of "Death with Dignity" [overmedication to dangerous/lethal dosages] is quite another matter in my opinion, but not one that it is appropriate to bring up at length in the middle of the current discussion.)

Jwb, lemme see if I understand you correctly on one point: If you attempt suicide but fail, it's not a sin, but you attempt suicide and succeed then it is? Why wouldn't an unsuccessful attempt be considered a sin as well? If you attempt to kill someone else but fail isn't it still as much a sin, in God's eye, as succeeding in doing it? I'm not being facetious or anything. Just trying to see if I understand you corrrectly on this.

Jwb never denied that attempted suicide was a sin. The distinction he makes is that attempted suicide can be forgiven, but "successful" suicide can't. (Even when there is no difference in the performance of the act of the sin or in the repentance, but only in outside intervention!)

Ok. Guess I missed that. Wow, that was fast. I'd just posted it, too!

::So you're saying that if I find out that I have cancer, that it can be treated with chemotherapy, and that I can live a lot longer than a year or so - and I choose to not undergo the procedure - then it's not suicide? Because I passively let me die?

Am I reading that right?:: My Dear Miss M

As far as I'm concerned it has to be an active decision. Letting yourself die is not good, but I would not call it suicide. On the other hand, if you want to die and you do things, even those not self directed, to make it happen, I would probably consider that particular circumstance to be suicide.

::I don't think that anyone's arguing that we shouldn't, but you made it sound as though our success is the key determining factor.:: Matthew Patterson

Not the key thing, no, but I would think that the better we succeed the better it is for us.

::If you attempt suicide but fail, it's not a sin:: MarkN

No, what I said was that you can be forgiven for an attempt that fails because you survive. TomM, the difference comes in the fact that you can't be forgiven for a sin after death and you also can't be forgiven for a sin that has not been totally done yet or one that is not done at all.

...you also can't be forgiven for a sin that has not been totally done yet or one that is not done at all. Jwb

Well, in the case of the person slitting their wrists and bleeding to death, the act of actually cutting the wrists is sinful. Let's say the person is too weak for loss of blood to physically do anything else to save himself/herself, like in Tom's scenario. The person regrets it, and if they had the power they would try to live. I'd say the sin has already been committed, whether or not the person has yet to experience all the consequences of the sin. Wouldn't that make the sin "totally done"? I do agree that you can't repent for a sin you're still in the middle of committing and expect to be forgiven.

TomM, thanks for the welcome back.

::The person regrets it, and if they had the power they would try to live. I'd say the sin has already been committed:: Matt Duke

One sin has been committed, yes. The person could repent of that one, I guess, before he or she died, but the death and success of the suicide is still wrong and a sin in itself.

::I do agree that you can't repent for a sin you're still in the middle of committing and expect to be forgiven.:: Matt Duke

Speaking of that kind of thing, I always laugh when people are about to do something bad and they say, "God forgive me."

---

Quote:

One sin has been committed, yes. The person could repent of that one, I guess, before he or she died, but the death and success of the suicide is still wrong and a sin in itself.

---

One sin has been committed, yes. The person could repent of that one, I guess, before he or she died, but the death and success of the suicide is still wrong and a sin in itself.

We're arguing theology and semantics here now, but I disagree. The sinful act would be the suicide attempt. If you truly repent before you die, the death is no longer a suicide. It's as if some guy shot you, and you're dying. The sinner who tried to kill is not you, as you're forgiven for the suicide attempt. The dying is now a matter of circumstance.

Disclaimer: I don't know Christian theology, and I don't claim to really understand it. But from what little I *do* know, that's my read.

All this talk about sin has prompted me to create a new board for it. Here, it's about sinning by suicide, which of course is fine. The new board is for anything else about sinning in other ways, i.e. murder, theft, adultery, and what have you.

Luigi Novi - thank you for your kind wishes.

I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that I prefer to believe in a merciful God, a God who grants peace to those who are so heavily burdened by their troubles that they make an ultimate gesture. Maybe I'm an idealist here but all this fire and brimstone judgement doesn't seem a part of a God that I want to believe in. My father was a good man, well liked and I want to believe that he would be judged (if he's judged at all) on that rather than on the way in which his life ended.

And I'm sure some of you can quote scripture at me to disprove this idealism but surely if God is infinite he's in no way bound by any interpretation you put on the words.

Del, I'm an idealist at heart, and at times, I have difficulty reconciling the concept of a judgmental God with a loving God. But then, I think, there HAS to be an aspect of judgmental God because if there isn't, you have Hitler and Mother Theresa be-bopping to the same afterlife, and that ain't kosher. Then comes "how does God judge us?" All I know here is what the Scripture says:

John--"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me."--Jesus.

Romans--"If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

What do those verses mean? A lot of Christians have different interpretations. But I look at it like this: If you have faith and really believe in Jesus and what He did and accept it, then you are saved. Your actions cannot negate it (although your actions, I guess, could show you never really accepted it).

Well I've just joined the pantheon of those in the 'attempted/succesful suicide in the family' club. My grandmother is in the hospital after an OD of pills.

::So you can repent and NOT be forgiven? Ya know, I coulda sworn this *entire* time, you'd been saying otherwise: You repent and are saved.:: Hannah F

You have been misunderstanding me. You can attempt to repent and if you really mean it God will forgive you if you have repented properly. The post you quote was saying that you can't be forgiven or repent of a sin until it has been completely done. If you kill yourself, the sin is not over until you have died and then it is too late. The attempt can be forgiven, but not the success. How many times do I have to say this again?

::If you truly repent before you die, the death is no longer a suicide.:: ScottN

That is like saying, "If I repent of murder, it's not murder anymore, the person just died." See how silly that sounds?

::The sinner who tried to kill is not you, as you're forgiven for the suicide attempt.:: ScottN

Again, you're trying to say that it didn't happen, or at least you're not responsible, just because you repent. That's silly.

::an ultimate gesture:: Del

It's as if you see suicide as some glorified thing.

::Your actions cannot negate it.:: MikeC

I don't understand how you can believe that. Just because a person really believes in Christ and his crucifixion doesn't mean that it no longer matters what they do. You can truly believe in certain things being right and still not do them because of the weaknesses of the human spirit and body. You're almost coming out and saying that a true believer never would sin. That's honestly not too bright a thought.

::Your actions cannot negate it.:: MikeC

I don't understand how you can believe that. Just because a person really believes in Christ and his crucifixion doesn't mean that it no longer matters what they do. You can truly believe in certain things being right and still not do them because of the weaknesses of the human spirit and body. You're almost coming out and saying that a true believer never would sin. That's honestly not too bright a thought. -- Jwb

"I am the resurrection and the life," saith the Lord. "He that believeth in me, though he may die, yet shall he live, and he that liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Note that the operative word is "believe" and not "always perform virtuous actions." Of *course* human beings are going to sin. It's in our nature, and that part of us remains unchanged. The *point* of grace is that we are saved in *spite* of our nature. It has *nothing* to do with our deserving it because of our actions, because we simply cannot.

ScottN,

As an alleged, sometimes, almost, maybe Christian (note to someone: Catholics are Christian and the Pope is not the anti-Christ.), that is how I always believed it.

TomM.,

Fencing rods at twenty paces! (For the slow witted a fencing rod will do very little damage at tweny paces.)

I just read this:

If you can equate martyrdom with this ill-considered plan, then maybe you really don't understand the difference! Then again the smilies might mean that you're just trying to get a rise out of someone, a practice that might be considered to be starting to border on trolling. -- TomM

I notice the "" but since the subject is "" perhaps you are seroius. Sometimes when someone says they are joking they are joking. "" means "I'm not serious". If I want to get a rise out of someone it'll be you in a dumpable post. (Why use "" to get a rise out of someone when you can be clear? I'm serious. I assume your post wasn't serious but are you accusing me of something? If you are not joking just come out and say it.)

::Note that the operative word is "believe" and not "always perform virtuous actions." Of *course* human beings are going to sin. It's in our nature, and that part of us remains unchanged. The *point* of grace is that we are saved in *spite* of our nature. It has *nothing* to do with our deserving it because of our actions, because we simply cannot.:: Matthew Patterson

On the other hand, even if you are saved you can't just expect to be able to do what you want and still go to Heaven. I refuse to believe that you can't lose your soul even after you are saved if you do something wrong and don't repent..

Tom M.,

"off topic popouri"

Jwb52z - I don't see suicide as "some glorified thing", I see it as the action of a sick person so please don't start reading your interpretations into my words. And I seriously hope that life never deals you the cards that would shake your holier than thou convictions. I prefer to believe in a living, non-rigid God who doesn't equate suicide with being Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.

Brian Webber - all my sympathies to you at this difficult time.

::please don't start reading your interpretations into my words.:: Del

If I don't do that at all, there's no hope to attempt to understand you.

::And I seriously hope that life never deals you the cards that would shake your holier than thou convictions.:: Del

People actually have killed themselves when they were in a similar situation to mine. If I can stay alive with my problems, I don't think they're too much for anyone else to handle. I know that that may sound bad, but I really do believe peopleare too quick to just give up and do rash things in life just because things get bad.

Del, any time.

Brian, my heart goes out to your family. I hope your grandmother can be consoled and her pain assuaged.

Brian, my thoughts are with you. I sort of know how you feel. Yesterday morning one of my co-workers slit her wrists in an attempted suicide in the restroom at the office. Since then we've all been in shock. It's really freaky. She's the type of person who's always cheery, with a smile on her face & a kind word for everyone. Nobody saw it coming. Thank God she's going to be all right and will be getting the help she really needs. I hope your grandmother gets better and gets the help she needs also.

Brian, allow me to add my thoughts to everyone else's. (I missed your original post in the flamefest).

Thanks. Frnakly I'm surprised it wasnt deleted. I'm banned her now you now. I was just gonna post as Anonymous 37, but I wasn't exactly in the mood.

The sad thing is though, I wasn't upset about the suicide attempt. I was upset that I WASN'T upset about it. Of course, it's hard to feel sympathetic, the woman did threaten toi kill them the day before she did it. And when she was released back home today, and I woke, before I was even awake enough to form vowels, she launched into me in a blatanly personal attack that, as usual, my Dad pretended not to notice, about how I 'was upset she was back' and that I 'wanted her to die.'

I have no sympathy for her, and I doubt I'd try to stop her if she tried it again, because 10 years of her BS is just too much. Look, we're all sorry your father died Jude, but for ••••'s sake he was in his 90s, and he had cancer! Quit taking it out on the rest of us! Ever since he passed on we've all, everyone in the family (exept the snake, Augustus, who I frankly fear for now as well. What if she tried to take him with her? I'm no big fan of snakes, but jeez) had to suffer for it. She takes out her being PO'ed at her father dying on everyone around her, especially me, her favorite 'paranoid little sh*t.'

Sorry, I just, really needed to vent. You know I was planning to see the new Soderbergh movie today. SO far I've been disallowed, but haven't really been given a good reason. Ironmic that the woman who forbid me from visiting her at the hospital (as though this was my fault) seems so dmaned interested in keeping me IN her way, when I'm trying like hell to get out of it.

Rough, Brian. A while back one of my mom's cousins almost shot himself, but the police interceded and he put the gun down. Thankfully, he's gotten treatment, and is better now.

BTW, Brian, forgive me if this sounds really dumb, but are you still in school right now (high school, college?)?

Brian Webber: The sad thing is though, I wasn't upset about the suicide attempt. I was upset that I WASN'T upset about it.
Luigi Novi: Don't worry about it, Brian. It's not unusual for one to be occupied with what appear to be mundane thoughts during times of tragedy. I felt the same odd sensation on September 11th.

I went through a similar thing when my aunt passed away about a decade ago. I didn't understand why I wasn't crying. My sister, who was distraught, noticed, and asked me how I could not cry. I told her I didn't feel anything. She took it to me that I was in shock, but I wasn't. I simply didn't feel anything. I didn't know why.

It was at this time that I came to understand something about myself, and how dispassionate I can be at times, something with at times is a blessing, and at other times makes me feel like the odd one out. It's nothing to be ashamed of, Brian. Human emotions didn't come with a User Guide. The imporant thing is that you simply try to do what you feel is the right thing to do, and to consciously treat people as good as you feel you should. Don't worry about unconscious feelings that you have little or no measure of control over. If you find yourself feeling something unpleasant, just TALK about it. It demystifies the feeling.

I had a similar thing too... Though circumstances were slightly different. When my grandmother died after years of Alzheimer's, I didn't feel upset...

I felt like she had died years before, and what had just ceased to exist was a "thing that used to be her". Luckily, my family understood.

Just wondering... we're wandering a bit far afield here... maybe we should either have a topic for grieving/death-and-dying, etc... or take the grief discussion over to Potpourri?

When my grandfather died, I can remember I didn't feel too much. I felt sad, of course, but he was in poor health, so I knew it was coming. Then, I took a shower, and in it, for some reason, I cried like a baby. I basically talked it over with myself and God, and let it all out. It worked.

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Quote:

It was at this time that I came to understand something about myself, and how dispassionate I can be at times, something with at times is a blessing, and at other times makes me feel like the odd one out. -Luigi

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BTW, J, I do apologize for engaging in a rather repetitive conversation (for you anyway). I was away from NitCentral for a long sabbatical shortly after I resigned as moderator, and missed the long discussion in the Martyrdom section, much of which is rather similar to what we have been saying, so sorry if you had to repeat yourself for my lack of checking up.

Also, I did laugh at the nice slam at me in one of the last posts of the Martyrdom section. I deserved it.

unemotional and stid

Sorry. That should read staid.

•••••• 'insert' key...

unemotional and stid

Sorry. That should read staid.

St*pid 'insert' key...

Scott and everyone else I've now created the new Grief board, as well as a Suicide Part 2 board, since this one's getting up there in size now.