These people from a Baptist church in Kansas travel around the country protesting anyone they see as being pro-homosexuality. (Favorite targets of theirs include theatre groups performing The Laramie Project, the play about the aftermath of Matthew Shepard's murder.) Their latest victim was the subject of a multi-part series about gay teenagers in conservative areas of the country. Based on this media exposure alone, they targeted him and his church.

I suppose it ought to go without saying how sickening I find this practice, but apparently it doesn't, or nobody would engage in it. So, yeah. Sick.

Oh, Phelps. Yeah, the GHF.com group shows religion at its worst, don't they?

The best part about that article was that the community rallied around the kid in the face of those...er, insert appropriate profanity here.

Check out their other affiliated websites: GodHatesAmerica.Com and (to be fair) GodHatesCanada.Com.

Favorite part? The FAQ that says the most moral country in the world to live in in Zimbabawe.

Those Phelpian word-I-Can't-use people were waving their signs at the Columbine Memorial too. My grandmother got so angry she started hyperventilating, and I had to force myself not to look at them because I knew if I did I'd end up doing something felonious. Almost as sick were the Scientologist recruiters in the crowd.

This sort of nazi like behavior is why I find relgion to be so hypocritical. Fundalmental extremists like that are no different than osama and his buddies and deserve to be treated as such. They are part of the Christian Taliban which is going to destroy this country.

A thought I just had. I doubt the founding fathers would be happy with this kind of behavior. Since they were not christians they would probably be quite ashamed and upset at the state of the country now. Especially when hate groups like this hide behind their piousness to spew disgusting crud. But then again that is one of the freedoms that founding fathers wanted to make sure we all can enjoy. I bet the Founding fathers would have sided with the ACLU on many different things.

Note, there are extreme forms of every group that make them look bad. This "church" has only a tenuous connection to Christianity.

Most Christians have only tenuous conenctions to Christianity.

R, I doubt that *any* reasonable person is happy with this behaviour, but it's legally protected. Not much the government can do to stop them. And this is as it should be, because it ensures that when I want to go picket the state capitol for things *I* think are important, I can't be stopped either.

Brian Webber, I *beg* of you not to generalize.

Picketing performances of plays sounds tame compared to their picketing of funerals, for which Phelps is better known. Moreover, Phelps admits on his sight that his motive in doing this is to make the bereaved feel bad, which sounds to me like a admission of intentional affliction of emotional distress, which the First Amendment does not (and should not) cover. It's one of the few things that I believe should not be protected by Free Expression laws.

MikeC: Favorite part? The FAQ that says the most moral country in the world to live in in Zimbabawe.
Luigi Novi: I recall once reading in the FAQ that he showed the flag on his page because it was a "righteous" country, but I don't recall saying it was the most moral. Doing a search on it just now reveals that references to Zimbabwe are no longer on it.

R: This sort of nazi like behavior is why I find relgion to be so hypocritical.
Luigi Novi: People are hypocritical, not religion. Religion itself is inanimate and neutral. For all the majority of people for whom religion is a source of strength, and who do not use it as an excuse to rationalize evil behavior, there are a minority of do like Phelps. It isnt religion, R. It's what you do with it.

R, I doubt that *any* reasonable person is happy with this behaviour, but it's legally protected. Not much the government can do to stop them. And this is as it should be, because it ensures that when I want to go picket the state capitol for things *I* think are important, I can't be stopped either.

Hardly, picketing funerals, for example, amounts to harrassment which is by no means protected. Scum like Phelps should have every law possible thrown against them.

The Zimbabawe reference is actually on GodHatesAmerica.Com's FAQ. Sorry.

The article itself is actually very interesting in its depiction of the community's view of homosexuality. The last quote of the girl saying "Leave our homos alone" is fascinating.

Hardly, picketing funerals, for example, amounts to harrassment which is by no means protected.

Not quite. When they picketed Matthew Shepard's funeral, for instance, they weren't actually *at* the church, but in a public park nearby. There's actually very little you can do to them, legally, if they're not on private property. "Being atavistic on public land" isn't really a criminal offense.

Yeah I found that interesting. Sort of a we can discriminate and hate our people but outsiders can't come in and hate our people. And Luigi I am sorry but too many people I have encountered including my ex friends who recently got infected with religion claim that there is no difference between religion and the person. Either you ARE a christian or you are not and that religion only exists because of the people. Yet they also say that people exist because of religion and you cannot separate the two. And besides religion is hypocritical in that it supposedly teaches love and compassion for all people except for those who disagree with that particular relgion or flavor of christianity. (Which I can attest to from direct expereince and being told as such by a baptist minister)and if its what you do with it then religion is bad and hypocritical because most of the people with relgion I have encountered have used religion as a set of blinders closing their minds to anything that isnt approved and told they can do or think by their churches. Meanwhile the churches and the leaders are out drinking, fornicating and stealing or otherwise sinning. And yes it does sound like he is intentionally inflicting emotional harm and distress (A very christian thing to do don't you think) but his actions while skirting the legality of the issue and being very unethical and immoral are still legal. And so as long as they don't step a toe out of line there is nothign that can be done, legally.

That is distressing, but true "Christianity" is not about declaring things wrong or approving of things but rather a relationship with a Savior, Jesus Christ.

R: Luigi I am sorry but too many people I have encountered including my ex friends who recently got infected with religion claim that there is no difference between religion and the person.
Luigi Novi: Well, they would. And they’re wrong, because not every member of a given religion believes the same thing. I can assure that my parents, for example, who are Christian, would never tolerate Phelps’ activities. Are my parents hypocrites, therefore?

R: And besides religion is hypocritical in that it supposedly teaches love and compassion for all people except for those who disagree with that particular relgion or flavor of christianity.
Luigi Novi: And many people (perhaps most) do not choose to hate those who disagree with it. So obviously, those people choose not to allow religion to turn them into hypocrites.

And besides religion is hypocritical in that it supposedly teaches love and compassion for all people except for those who disagree with that particular relgion or flavor of christianity.

I beg of you, do not generalize. I was *never* taught this in a church, and I grew up in a small Methodist church in Lake Jackson, TX (population approximately 26,000). I spent four and a half years in a church school after moving to Louisiana, and once again, this was *never* preached. And I'm *gay*; you'd think that if anyone would have heard that, it would be me. But no. Your assertion is simply not true in my case, and I would wager that it's similarly false for a great many people.

I also beg of you, think paragraphs. It's very hard to read your posts and reply to them if there's no logical separation of ideas.

Sorry I to both of you Luigi and Matthew Patterson I have just been going off of the general experiences I have directly encountered.

My wife's brother is a minster at a non-denominational church and is such a bigot and his wife is even worse. She feels that sex except for procreation is wrong and will not even sleep in the same bed with her husband because it might provoke impure thoughts. So lets not even go into what she feels about same gender relationships, suffice to say that if she could make it illegal to just be GLBT she would.

I grew up Episcopalean but after a very nice and sweet minister left (She would come visit our grandmother that we where taking care of and talk to me about reincarnation and saw my D*D books sitting out one day and actually talked to me about the game and understood that it was just a game) she was replaced with a person who was only concerned about raising as much money as was possible so that they could beat the catholic church across town.

This led me to try out the various flavors of christianity and a few non-christian faiths. In each of them I was coming in as an outsider and hoping to be welcomed and for the most part none of them did. I wear my hair long and was told that was a sin and wrong at a Baptist church (meanwhile standing in front of a painting of Jesus with the long hippie hair and robes etc..)The ones that seemed to be the best where the Friends church and the Wiccans I met (Sorry I cannot recall their names as this was at college and several years ago.)

So two churches out of too many I came away with some slightly positive reactions/feelings. All the others I was either discoureged by how they reacted to the music I listened to, the politics I speak about or the fact that I didn't contribute money (which I have precious little of myself) to whatever charity of the week the preacher was pushing. Also the various churches sometimes used slightly different versions of the Bible (Ie King James, NIV, RNIV, RSIV etc...) which meant that thigns would sometimes be changed , slightly so but sometimes not. Also I am a student of science and a person who naturally questions things. So when I would questions why god or the church or relgion did things or anything I was basically told it was god's will and to shut up and not ask questions at best or just ignored. (See the Riddle of Epicurus)

I suppose not everyone is brainwashed and programmed to be a hypocrit by religion but religion does put blinders and fetters on a person and for the most part the religions (and their many of their practishioners) I have dealt with may not directly approve of phelps methods but many of the ones I have dealt with would approve of his goals.Which has led to a lot of conflict in my personal life including the loss of two extremly great and wonderful friends (and lover) who where the "aunt" and "uncle" to my kids and the rift between my wife's family and ourselves because she married me and then wouldn't leave me at their behest. I consider myself to be a good, decent, moral, ethical person. Even if I am not a christian or any religion for that matter. The universe does not care what relgion a person is or professes only that they live their life while doing the least harm to themselves and each other.

Sorry about the lack of paragraph's. I write the way i think and sometiems I don't exactly think in paragraphs. :-)

I'm sorry that you have had such negative experiences with Christianity in the past; I had a lot of the similar issues that you did before I was fortunate enough to find a great church environment that really brought me into a meaningful relationship with Jesus.

Well since I don't belive in the divinity of Jesus I doubt there is any church I would find comfortable. And I am not sorry about it as I do not feel the need for religion in my life. And I have to say that I did branch out and consider some non-christian faiths (muslim, buddist, jewish, etc...) but didn't feel at all welcome in most of them or otherwise it didn't fit.

I am saddened by people who think that without religion in their life they are missing somehting. I am missing nothing. (Except the friends I've lost over the years to this disease) and feel that my life is very full and fulfilling and all the other spiritual stuff people say that you can only get through religion. I personally don't need that kind of crut in my life and wish that humanity would outgrow the need for religion.
It (religion) kinda reminds me of Linus and his security blanket.

It is a scary universe and that is why many people run to religion. Fortuantely you can find the same answers, bravery or whatever you want to say inside yourself when you realize that shift happens and there is no real metaphysical reason for it.

Until I became a Christian believer in 1993, I lived in fear, not knowing what comes after death (I had been brought up by the mistaken teaching that if your "goodness" outweighs the "bad things" you've done, you go to heaven, otherwise you go to Hell - so you might live in worry your whole life wondering if you've been "good enough").

Now, every day is joy, with difficulties of living in this fallen, imperfect world. I can take comfort of knowing that even though I am fallen, and prone to commit sin, that I will only have to give an accounting for willful sins, not the ones I commit inadvertently and am consciously unaware of. And, the assurance that the punishment that I deserve has already been suffered by Someone in my place, and on His say so, I will be admitted to Heaven.

We all need what you call a "crutch". If you had a broken leg, would you refuse a crutch if it was the only way to get around? Not likely. Well, we are all broken by the wrongs we have committed and continue to commit against others. We need a "crutch", as you call it, to walk in righteousness because we sure can't do it ourselves. And it is not a "crutch", rather, it is the key that unlocks us from our prison of sin.

If you were locked in a safe in the bank, and only one person knew the combination to unlock it outside office hours, then that one person would be your saviour, the only one able to save you when nobody else could. Jesus, being God's son, unblemished by sin, is the only one holy and pure enough to be pleasing in God's sight, and therefore worthy of being the atoning sacrifice. My best deeds are as filthy rags.

Today, a gunman could come into our house and shoot all of us, but I would not fear it, since I and my wife and our children would awaken in heaven. I anticipate the mourning of our families at our departure, but if any of them receive Christ before their own deaths, we will be reunited with them, forever, NEVER to be separated again.

Terrorists could release anthrax, set off a nuclear bomb, or some unexpected world nuclear war could break out. It would not frighten me today as it did 15 years ago before I was saved in Christ. I know that such an event would not be my eternal death; I know that a happier existence comes after it.

So, why would I stay in this life? To help others also become part of this joyful eternity. There is not a living person today who I would wish Hell upon. Not even mass murderers. The vilest offender who truly believes receives a pardon through Christ. That goes for everyone. I hope Matthew Shepard is in heaven, too. I prayed for Yasser Arafat when he lapsed into a coma, and I can only hope that angels attended him and that he gave himself to Christ and is in Heaven now.

Hmmm. I'm not exactly sure of what to say about your post GCapp. Other than I am not afraid of death. To quote Spock Death is the discontinuation of life with either something or nothing following. It is the great unknown so I don't worry about it. The Universe is more concerned with the conservation of current energies. (Oh and I have been dead before, A heart attack and a stroke (not at the same time) but both times there was no bright light, no heavenly chorus and no deamons with pitchforks. Just LOC and then waking up asking what happened in the back of an ambulance)

As for the person Jesus. I do not believe in the divinty of this person. Why? Where they a great person? Yes. On the order of Martin Luther King Jr or JFK or Winston Churchill. Was he divine? There is doubt in my mind as the only stories and histories to confirm this are found in the christian approved bible. Which has been edited and re-written by humanity and the church over the milennia since it was first laid down by the tribesmen in the desert. Many of these stories involving Jesus where written after his death or by persons who had little dealing with him.

Also about the crutch. Yes I would use a crutch if I had a broken leg. But eventually I would grow strong enough to throw the crutch away. People who are addicted to religion never grow strong enough to throw the crutch away. They continually reinforce the weakness and hide from the universe. And you say you are locked in sin and ned that crutch because you cannot do it alone. Why is that? and what is sin anyhow but the behaviors that the church does not approve of. ( I say the church because the universe does not set rules for sin or not sin only energy balance and imbalance)

Now to the subject of forgiveness. I have heard this cop out many many times from various christians. I may be a sinner but if I ask forgiveness I will be saved and cleansed. Well let me tell you a little story from my experiences. A nice catholic fellow would come over to a girl I knew. She was not married but he was. They would drink and fornicate and basically party for most of the night. He would then on Sunday go and ask forgiveness adn consider himself a good devout Catholic all the rest of the week. Rather hypocritical if you ask me. Also does that mean that when a person gets to heaven they are going to be sharing space with Hitler, Genghis Kahn, and Dahlmer? I mean I bet all these people asked forgiveness if not on their deathbed then by your example after they got to processing and soul sorting. which invalidates the existence of Hell. And what about the vision of heaven. I am sure my vision of what would be heavenly would be quite different from say yous or Luigi's or someone elses.

Now about the happier existence that comes afterwards how do you know it exists? Who told you? The Bible as we've already discussed the bible was written by humans, edited by humans and re-written by humans.

Now let us speak of fear. I was much more fearful when I was a member of a church and had relgion because of the very reason you say. I was told I had to live to a certain minimum behavioral standards otherwise I was goign to hell. It was an all or nothign proposition. The whole concept of forgiveness was never brought into that. NOw without the blinders of religion I realize that as long as a person takes certain precautions (ie no drinking and driving, wear your seatbelt, eat right and exercise, lock your doors at night) you can mitigate certain threats. Other threats you cannot do anythign about other than plan reactions and contingincies in the unfortunate event that they do occur. There is no need for fear in a mature person when dealing with circumstances beyond their control. Shift happens. You deal with it. there is no need to run for the metaphysical "crutch" as it where. Which does bring me to your bank safe example. By my example you would not allow yourself to be locked in the bank safe in the first place. Which if you don't mind comparing life to being locked in a bank vault is a very depressing view of the world.I prefer the view that the world is an open road and you've got a full tank of gas to see what's out there. I am my own savior. I don't need anyone else to fill that position.

As for why I would stay in this life? It is for the exact same reasons. Because I know I can do more good alive and fighting and continuing to help as many people as I can. Not to find a possible afterlife but to enjoy and experience and have a fulfilling current life.

The example you gave was hypocritical; asking forgiveness isn't "every time I screw up, I confess," it's accepting Christ into your life and becoming a new person, being born again. Faux deathbed confessions won't get the job done.

Today, a gunman could come into our house and shoot all of us, but I would not fear it, since I and my wife and our children would awaken in heaven. I anticipate the mourning of our families at our departure, but if any of them receive Christ before their own deaths, we will be reunited with them, forever, NEVER to be separated again.

Oh, I surely hope not. That is, I surely hope you'd fear at least a little bit, and mourn the lost. It is a perfectly human thing to do. My mother died, quite unexpectedly, about a month ago, and I just wanted to smack every single person who assured me we'd eventually be reunited. Yeah, maybe, but I have about sixty years left to live through, and sixty years may be nothing next to eternity, but in my current human state, the sixty years is all I am capable of understanding. And at any rate, what comes after may be good, but what we have *here*, *now*, that is good also. If I died tomorrow, and if I still somehow retained the capacity to reason in a fashion similar to mortal men (okay, big if, but let's go with it), I would still mourn for the loss of the friends I have, and I would be sad that they had lost me, and I would hope that eternal paradise would not so warp me that I couldn't still feel that emotion.

Um, by which I mean, this generalized discussion of "religion is bad for people" versus "people ought to accept the grace of Jesus Christ" is beyond the bounds of this topic, which is specifically about the Westboro Baptist Church, and probably ought to go elsewhere.

Really. I have pointed that out to several chiristians and asked them that. I have received the answer you gave and I have also received the answer that God forgives us all, just as long as we are repentetent and sorry for what we did.

I must confess I am not as well versed in the particulars of confessions as I did not have them at episcopal church and did not make it past the entrance interview to attend catholic church services. (Yes the church I wanted to attend required people wanting to attend services at that time to go through an interview/application process)

But suffice to say who con judge the sincerety of a deathbed confession, or the weekly confession. The whole get out of jail free confessional thing seems a bit of a cop out to me and i will stand by that view until prooven differently.

:-( ... If proof you wait for, rather than believing by faith alone, then ... :-( ... I grieve for you.

Thomas didn't believe Jesus had been resurrected until he saw Jesus for himself. Jesus told him, "You believe because you see. How blessed are those who believe without seeing."

There shall be no tears in Heaven, Matthew.

Yes, this topic may have started about Westboro. Phelps tells lies about Jesus Christ and God, when he says that "God hates (homosexuals)". When he says "Matthew in Hell", how does Phelps know? Has he been there? Can anyone be absolutely certain that as Matthew lay dying, or even in the days or weeks before but not told by him to anyone, he repented and accepted Christ's atonement to cover his sins? I would be pleased to see Matthew in Heaven.

I went to Phelps' website once and examined it. I found a glaring inconsistency and e-mailed him about it. Basically, my point to him was, "you claim only certain people are _pre-destined_ to be saved and go to Heaven, no matter what they do in life, and everyone else is pre-destined to miss out. Yet, you urge people to take up your beliefs. What's the point in those who are pre-destined to go to Hell in taking up your beliefs, and if others are pre-destined to Heaven, why should they bother, since they're already pre-destined to Heaven?"

They never replied. They wouldn't be able to explain such an inconsistency.

Everyone is a sinner, without exception. God loves everyone - He gave His only son to rescue us from our sin, but there are still millions of people who live for self-will and aren't the least bit sorry about their misdeeds.

I don't know Phelps' status as far as salvation is concerned, but if he is saved, he will have a lot to answer for, with all his heartless expressions of hatred, and the heartless way he treated Matthew Shepars's family. Only God knows if he will sit at a higher place than me in Heaven. I would assume, and am ready to be wrong, that I will have a higher place than Clifford Olson and Paul Bernardo... if they ever repent and get to Heaven, that is.

With all respect to the Catholics reading here, I do not understand the value of going to confessional each week or whatever, if you go back and repeat those same sins the next week. The whole thing about salvation is that God begins a major, lifelong renovation project of your spirit, gradually excising the sin from your life.

For example, I stopped buying lottery tickets less than a year after, and about the only ones I've bought were for the rubber duck race... but when I filled out the name, I often put Kris Kringle or something, not my own name, or I put the name of the beneficiary of the race (Line of Life) instead of my own name, so throwing an extra thousand dollars to the beneficiary.

I am trying each day to remember not to speak ill of people. When the thought comes to my mind, I recognize it as a wrong, and put the brakes on it. One day, I want it to be as natural as breathing, but it takes time. People who receive salvation don't become instant paragons of virtue. They've simply recognized their need and most are then open to begin the long climb, only with God's help, to be more obedient of the Great Commandment.

Yes, this topic may have started about Westboro.

And it shall remain so, or at least it ought. We have problems here on RM with topic drift, and I'd like to start trying to correct that, if you don't mind.

my apologies for contributing to the topic drift. I saw a need to address certain issues.

And do not grieve for me for I am a stronger and better person now than I once was when I was infected with religion. I greive for thee for thou art blind to the world around you.

I will now close this with saying that the Westboro Baptist Church does not appear to be a church in any sense of the word. Rather it is a hate group no better than the American Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan. Unfortunately their doctrine appears to be the normal christian belifs taken to the extreme and acted upon.

The Musings boards have always had more topic drift than other boards. Sometimes a remark on one subject strikes a chord with a slightly different subject for another poster, who comments. There have been times that two or three unrelated conversations had their posting interlaced. I (and most of the Musings moderators before me) have been very lenient, allowing the topic to drift back to the one stated in the title naturally.

I was reading some interesting stuff about 'Rev.' Fred Phelps. I mostly just knew him as some nut with an ax to grind against homosexuality. Turns out there's a lot more going on there.

He's a disbarred lawyer who was very active in the early civil rights movement in Kansas, helping black defendants win cases involving racial discrimination. His family was harassed and threatened by local people for aligning themselves with black people who wanted equal rights.

His 'church' has around 70 confirmed members and of those 60 are related to Phelps by blood, marriage or both. Yes both marriage and blood because Phelps did at one point forbid marriage to outsiders, who he felt were a corrupting influence.

He was disbarred for some incredibly inappropriate conduct in court and committing perjury. Several of his kids are also attorneys who also work for his Phelps Family Law Firm. The way his 'church' supports itself and pays for their huge travel budget ($200,000 annually) is by abusing the "Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Award Act of 1976." Basically they defend themselves from times when they were illegally prevented from protesting somewhere, which does crop up as the first amendment does protect much offensive speech. After winning the case they sue under that act and since the attorneys are Phelps Family Law Firm members and Westboro Baptist Church members they can 'charge' whatever they want and claim it as attorneys fees and when they win the suit the award all goes straight back into the Westboro Baptist Church general fund.

He has many kids, and even more grand kids. Two of his sons have left the church and claim that he was an abusive father and that his church is a cult. Basically they charge that he is an authoritarian psycho who is under the delusion that he is the only righteous man on Earth and you must follow him or be doomed to everlasting hellfire. It actually makes him sound like a sociopath who suffers from delusions of persecution. That also explains some of his more offensive acts. The more people oppose him the more it strengthens his delusion that he's being unfairly persecuted by the rest of the world. It really is a shame about his family members who grow up their whole lives being fed this line of brainwashing and cult indoctrination. His church/family live in a compound that's pretty much cut off from the outside world except for when they go out to protest some immorality or the other.