(A Long Post!)

This has been a long process to come about. From my first exposure to the religion, I went to church nearly every Sunday up until a few years ago. I went to Catholic school through the 7th grade, and for various reasons entered public school in 8th grade. I was amazed at the difference, and was pleased at being exposed to a lot of different “types” of kids, rather than the same homogenous group I’d spent the last 7 years with. This was my first exposure to seeing something really “different” in my 13 or so years of life so far.

My mother died in 1999 after a long illness (cancer) when I was about 40. During this time I had ample opportunity to pray and to see my family do the same. None of that worked, she still succumbed and died. No miracles here. Perhaps if there had been a magnificent recovery, I would continue to believe as I had before then.

Sometime in 2000, I was particularly down, and attended my regular Sunday church service, hoping to find something uplifting in the message being sent. The priest chose this week to detail some horrible story about a woman killing another to steal the other woman’s baby. The moral was “See what lengths people will go to to have a baby? Abortion is BAD!” Coming at this particular time (it was only a week after Easter or so), and the total illogic of this conclusion actually made me think of converting to another religion after many decades.

The defining factor was 9/11. I realized that these terrorists believed strongly enough in their God to kill themselves and several thousand people. The God I thought I knew should never have let that happen. Therefore, either their God was stronger (and I refused to believe that – there was only supposed to be ONE), or it was the case of “there is nothing there”.

Around this time I became aware of the phenomenon of John Edward – “medium” and “psychic”. I was fascinated by his performances, which were similar to several other psychics I’d seen on TV. I’ve always had an appreciation for the fantastic, but don’t believe in UFO’s, ghosts, or most of that paranormal phenomena. This guy was amazing though, and I usually agreed with the sitter, wondering how he “always got everything exactly right”. Something led me to investigate further, and I came across the James Randi Educational Foundation, and the JREF forum.

This board was highly influential in my learning about critical thinking. Over the course of several months, I learned about the techniques of cold reading, among other things. As I continued to watch John Edward, I realized this is exactly what he (along with most other psychics) was doing. Instead of “getting it exactly right”, I saw how he fished for information and twisted reponses around to make it seem like he had been right all along.

During this time, there was the revelation of the widespread sexual abuse by priests, and the subsequent cover-up. I was very distressed that in addition to having been fooled by a psychic, even my own religion was capable of deception. Concurrently, I also found out that there was widespread corruption in the national governing body of the taekwondo group I belong to. In both instances, there had been previously been rumors, but once the investigation and revelation had come about, even though it may have been apparent before, was now impossible to ignore. At this time I found it very difficult to put my faith or trust in anything. Certainly my previous beliefs had been shattered.

Improving my critical thinking has been a long road, but I am now comfortable with the world the way it really is, instead of being afraid of being punished by the magical man who lives in the sky, for an eternity, for possibly some minor offense. I no longer believe in life after death, Heaven or Hell, Purgatory or Limbo (those last two have seemed to been “erased” in the last few decades). I would like to believe that the body’s energy goes somewhere after death, even if it’s given back to the universe somehow.

I believe that a Jesus-like man very probably existed, and his ideas have been twisted and formed to fit many religions’ agendas. I don’t deny that there are many good concepts presented by him and in the bible, and most of the ten commandments are still sound knowledge to live by.

Does this leave me sad and depressed? Sometimes. But I now see religion as like a drug (if you’ve ever seen true fundies you know what I mean), and dangerous as an influence in politics. There is a new trend that if you don’t believe in “OUR” God, you are going to be in some big trouble. Sure, most people think it’s great, but only because the people of influence believe in the same God.

You might think – “Well, if you don’t believe in God or sin, what’s to keep you from stealing, murdering, etc.?” It’s because I’m still a good guy, and I have empathy for other people. This is not brought about by religion (although it may have had some influence earlier in my life).

What would make me believe? Oh, perhaps having God or his messenger actually appear, or seeing a true miracle that would be impossible to explain otherwise (even then it would be subject to my critical thinking – magicians do “impossible” things all the time).

I won’t denigrate others for believing – most of my family still does (and doesn’t even know my turnaround yet). But when I went to my goddaughter’s Confirmation, I just felt sad because the ritual reminded me of recruiting into the Hitler youth. “If we can get ‘em young…” It took me several years to see what was real. It would take something extraordinary to convince me now that something is there.

If God was so desperate for me to believe in Him, why would he ever allow me to change my mind after so many years? I see religion as like a drug now – sure I felt better when I had it, but eventually I have to return to reality.

I doubt there’s anything anyone could say that would convince me otherwise now.

Your conversion mirrors my own, Influx, as does your current views of religion and the religious, with the main difference being that none of the tragedies, scandals or paralogia you mentioned were causes of my conversion, since tragic loss, pedophile priests, 9/11, and fake psychics would exist even if there were a God and an afterlife. Those things don't disprove his existence, nor for that matter, does anything.

I came to understand the significance and validity of the Scientific Method and peer review process beginning with reading the works of Michael Shermer, and then with similar works by Bob Park, Robert Youngson, Martin Gardner, but did not apply those ideas to my spiritual beliefs, rationalizing that not all things need be empirical, but after becoming a weekly reader (and sometime contributor) to James Randi's Weekly Commentary, I began to understand that the Scientific Method needed to be applied consistently in order for it to be applied intellectually honestly.

Yes, many of the Bible's ideas are good ones, but many are not, and of the Ten Commandments, I reject the first three, and the last two (in the Catholic version). Religion wasn't even the origin of morality, as some falsely argue; it was merely the first to formally codify it.

However, I do not understand your statement, Influx that the "if you don't beleive in "OUR" God, you are going to be in some big trouble" is somehow a "new" trend, when it's obviously a very old one.

That's odd. There used to be a topic for posts like these. I remember posting the story of my own spiritual journeys there. I know I didn't delete it when I took over RM. It is possible I mis-labelled it. Or maybe it was lost in the Great Topic Meltdown of 199_ (whatever year it was).

I always enjoy learning more about the influences that shaped others philosophies and why they have (as we all do) certain sore points and blind spots. It helps to give a "face" to the name; makes the other person more of a fellow human being and less of a cipher.

Mine was less dramatic. I come from a long line of agnostics and secular humanists, so one of us going "all the way" to the No-God side was a fait accompli relaly. I was just the first. A few of my cousins are also going down that road to atheism, but sadly they fit the Right Wing sterotype of the amoral atheist (I fully expect to see my cousin Matthew end up inspiring an SVU episode in the next 10 years. ), so I naturally don't discuss them much.

Well I already discussed my escape from religion on the religious musings board. I can reiterate it here if anyone is interested. (probably mainly a cut an paste but oh well.) Religion is a drug. And believe me Influx I can fully understand your feeligns about things. My dad died of the same thing in 91 when I was 20 and I had a bit of a bad reaction to that.

Well, I hear a lot of stories like mine now. I wonder if anyone ever goes the other way?

Sure, me, for example.

OK, a couple of short, personal remarks/jabs were made today. While they did not quite rise to the level where I would normally take action, and the comments made concerning them seems to have had a calming effect, the topic of this thread is such that it encourages a deeper level of self-revalation and that adds an extra layer of vulnerability. So consider this the last warning. Attacks, no matter how innocuous will not be tolerated on this board.

I'll ask everyone to remember that. If you feel you must "react" to something that someone reveals here, first be clear in your mind that it is a religious/philosophical issue, and not a personal one, and then go to the board that most relates to that issue and post it there.

(Post was deleted)

MikeC, I'd still like to hear your story. If this thread title bothers you, perhaps you want to start one of your own.

I'm sorry, Influx, your post wasn't up yet when I saw the other posts and decided to delete them. I just deleted all the posts after Mike's.

And thank you Brian, Luigi, and Scott for your concern. I deleted your posts only because they no longer would make sense without the inappropriate ones

Sure, Influx, give me a few days to clarify my thoughts and I'll start a new thread about it.

Well, seeing as how the title changed, I'll just post here.

Cool, but then we lost that nice R.E.M title...

I had a post deleted?

You said "how rude."

However, it wasn't deleted because it was a flame, but simply because of the OT-ness. I expect this whole thread about deleted posts to be deleted as well.

Then we can have a deleted thread about a deleted thread about a deleted thread and we can give the Mod a pounding headache.

Then it would be something like a meta-delete...

Then we can have a meta^*-delete
where * indicates an infinite number of metas!

Okay, now that I'm done (well ALMOST done) with final exams, I have some free time, so here we go:

I grew up not really caring that much about religion. I knew the inkling of the biblical stories, I believed in God, and I said a prayer at night, but it wasn't a big deal. In late grade school, I attended one year of Sunday School. Not my deal.

As I moved into middle and high school, I felt my life was very empty; I didn't think there was a meaning to anything. I had bouts of what I call depression although I was certainly never diagnosed. I felt bad about things in sort of a general way (there was no tragic event or anything, I just felt bad).

Through one of my friends, I began attending a junior high youth group; I found the messages expressed there very interesting. They didn't just rehash old Bible stories--they showed how Christianity is relevant to a person's life and for the first time, I actually clearly heard and understood the Gospel message. There is not one instance where I can point to and say "That is when I became a Christian," but it was a process around this period. I felt a sense of contentment and meaning that had been missing from my life.

Congrats on your exams, Mike. Enjoy your holidays.

Ok I finally found the topic where i discussed partly my decision and escape from religion so I will post it here if no one minds to have it seen in its proper area.

I have directly encountered.

My wife's brother is a minster at a non-denominational church and is such a bigot and his wife is even worse. She feels that sex except for procreation is wrong and will not even sleep in the same bed with her husband because it might provoke impure thoughts. So lets not even go into what she feels about same gender relationships, suffice to say that if she could make it illegal to just be GLBT she would.

I grew up Episcopalean but after a very nice and sweet minister left (She would come visit our grandmother that we where taking care of and talk to me about reincarnation and saw my D*D books sitting out one day and actually talked to me about the game and understood that it was just a game) she was replaced with a person who was only concerned about raising as much money as was possible so that they could beat the catholic church across town.

This led me to try out the various flavors of christianity and a few non-christian faiths. In each of them I was coming in as an outsider and hoping to be welcomed and for the most part none of them did. I wear my hair long and was told that was a sin and wrong at a Baptist church (meanwhile standing in front of a painting of Jesus with the long hippie hair and robes etc..)The ones that seemed to be the best where the Friends church and the Wiccans I met (Sorry I cannot recall their names as this was at college and several years ago.)

So two churches out of too many I came away with some slightly positive reactions/feelings. All the others I was either discoureged by how they reacted to the music I listened to, the politics I speak about or the fact that I didn't contribute money (which I have precious little of myself) to whatever charity of the week the preacher was pushing. Also the various churches sometimes used slightly different versions of the Bible (Ie King James, NIV, RNIV, RSIV etc...) which meant that thigns would sometimes be changed , slightly so but sometimes not. Also I am a student of science and a person who naturally questions things. So when I would questions why god or the church or relgion did things or anything I was basically told it was god's will and to shut up and not ask questions at best or just ignored. (See the Riddle of Epicurus)

I suppose not everyone is brainwashed and programmed to be a hypocrit by religion but religion does put blinders and fetters on a person and for the most part the religions (and their many of their practishioners) I have dealt with may not directly approve of phelps methods but many of the ones I have dealt with would approve of his goals.Which has led to a lot of conflict in my personal life including the loss of two extremly great and wonderful friends (and lover) who where the "aunt" and "uncle" to my kids and the rift between my wife's family and ourselves because she married me and then wouldn't leave me at their behest. I consider myself to be a good, decent, moral, ethical person. Even if I am not a christian or any religion for that matter. The universe does not care what relgion a person is or professes only that they live their life while doing the least harm to themselves and each other.

I had a similar path to MikeC except in reverse: my depression was caused by religion rather than relieved by it.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. I was told from infancy that God existed, the Bible was true, there was a heaven and hell, etc. I sort of believed God existed, but when it came to experiencing God in some personal way, I just could not do it. No matter how many people told me about God, I just didn't see it. I prayed, I got "saved," but it didn't work. I tried to pretend it did, even to myself, but I knew that I really didn't believe it, at least not enough to get to heaven. Sometimes I would be depressed over it and felt that I would end up in a burning lake of fire for eternity because I couldn't believe.

Then a book came out called "88 Reasons Why the Rapture May Occur in 1988." I think the author was Edgar Whisenant. He used mathematics and prophecy to conclude that the Rapture might occur around Rosh Hashanah that year. It was a big topic in church. I thought, "OK, now I have really got to get right with God." I went to revival, prayed for enlightenment, mercy, something. The result: nothing. So I got to the point where I gave up. I said, "If God makes it this hard to avoid eternal torture, then he must not be a loving god. And if he isn't a loving god, then there's no hope for any of us. If he is a loving god, then he knows I try to lead a moral life, I tried to be saved, and that has got to count for something." So after a few weeks of letting that sink in, I stopped going to church and haven't returned. I felt like a burden had been lifted off me (kind of like being "born again"). The dread and futility were gone. I am happier now than I ever was in church trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. My only regret is that it took so long. So my rejection of religion really has nothing to do with critical thinking or logic (except that I realized that just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it true - something I already realized in principle, but didn't apply it to this subject; I was afraid to. Fear of hell can mess up your thinking). I simply did not experience God, no matter how I tried and did what I was supposed to do. That was a sufficient reason.

Welcome, Nove, to a new way of thinking, and I wish you contentment and long life, however you may find it.

Glad to see you feeling much better. Hope you have peace for your life.

Thanks, guys, a little late to welcome me since I got out of the church for good in 1988, but thanks. Just to make clear, I wasn't clinically depressed or suicidal or anything (in case it sounded that way), but I'm certainly glad I escaped. I shudder to think that somehow, I could have been in that mindset to this day.

No doubt, some Christians would say I'm doomed to hell for my decision (although I don't believe I really had any other choice), but their opinion doesn't affect me anymore, except it makes me sad for them.

I decided to continue my thoughts on hell as a punishment from a "loving" god here since the Evolution board on PM seems to have been derailed enough.

This is not directed specifically at MikeC, although he did say he believed in the view of hell as eternal torment. I used to believe that as well, and I think it's relevant on this board because this concept was the main thing that kept me from leaving religion much earlier than I did, and also the main reason I ultimately did leave (that sounds contradictory, but I just changed the way I thought about it in the interim).

I have trouble understanding how anyone could believe that this sort of punishment is anything less than a crime against humanity. And being the Creator doesn't give God license to mistreat us. My conscience (which a Christian, I assume, would say originated with God) tells me this is wrong. Most people would consider this wrong if they didn't feel they have to support anything God does simply because he's God. They should think long and hard about whether a divine being would truly do this, or is this something that more plausibly originated with petty, small-minded humans. And I think instilling this fear in people (especially children) may be a form of abuse, except you have the sticky problem that the people promoting this fear actually believe it. Ask yourself: what purpose does such a punishment serve? Who is helped by it?

Think about it: Once you get to heaven, you might think about the souls in hell and think that they deserve it. They rejected Jesus whereas you didn't. That sense of justice might get you through a thousand years, ten thousand. But then you'd start to think, enough is enough. They've got to have learned their lesson. What's the point of torturing them on and on and on?

Here's how I imagine it:

(Heaven.)
Christian #1: Look at the condemned souls in Hell. Listen to them...They're screaming in pain. Can't we help them?

Christian #2: It's not possible. They belong there.

Christian #1: But...they're screaming for help. They're screaming to us, to God, for even some small relief. I can't just ignore it! Why do they have to suffer like this?

Christian #2: It's not our place to question God.

Christian #1: I know, but...listen to them! Look at them! It would be better for them if they had never been born.

Christian #3 walks up.

Christian #3 (smiles broadly): Brothers...I don't even hear the screams anymore. My wife and children are in there. If I allowed myself...I just think about all the blessings we have here with God, how good He has been to us. His love, His mercy. And that's what you should do. Just walk away.

Christians #1 and #2 walk away as the screams echo and grow fainter, ever fainter...

And still, an infinite amount of time remains.

I can also imagine how a Christian might respond: "Ah, Nove, that's ridiculous. You made that all up out of your imagination. The souls in heaven won't even be able to hear the screams at all..."

An interesting point. This is something that people struggle with. I would respond with:

1. I believe that people in Heaven would not think that way because we will not be thinking on a human scale anymore. I know that sounds vague, maybe even callous, but I think it's hard to comprehend concepts like eternity/being with God on a human scale. On a human scale, it's like, "Wow, eternity would be pretty boring, and would I really want to be with God forever?" I believe once our human selves are changed, as the Bible says, we will understand and be able to comprehend those thoughts.

2. In one of Jesus' stories, Jesus tells the tale of the beggar Lazarus and a rich man; the former goes to "heaven" and the latter to "hell." The story is somewhat vague; we don't know if this really is what we would consider hell to be (from my reading of the Bible, that place hasn't even been "opened" yet), but anyway, Lazarus and Abraham are in heaven and hear the agony of the rich man in hell. In the story anyway, the people in heaven communicate and talk to the people in hell, but can't actually physically interact or intercede. I would guess, however, that the story is probably more of a parable/metaphor than actually something to take theology from. But I don't know.

Hell is a difficult concept. It is hard to understand. Do I really want to think about hell? Of course not. But it is a part of my faith, it is something that I believe in, and sadly, it is something that I believe exists.

Nove,

I quite agree with your thinking about Hell. Did you ever read the Peter DeRosa books, "Vicars of Christ" and "The Great Myth"? (I'm a bit pluggin for them on these boards, because he has more background about catholic history and dogma than I have.) In the first book, he uses the history of catholic church to demonstrate on how many points the dogma/doctrine has changed over the centuries, and why, and how the church has treated things like the truth, or the whole sex issue.
In the second book, he uses the discoveries in biblical science to deconstruct what most christian believe about the Bible and Jesus as figure.

In one (or both) of the books, De Rosa writes that the idea of hell as everlasting fire where most of humanity is headed - including infants not baptized, as was the belief until some centuries ago! - this idea is so abhorrent and against basic humanity (even a guy like Hitler shouldn't be punished like that forever) that it's a duty to oppose that idea and the God who invented it (or rather, the God idol who the ministers created, in order to keep people in line.)

Talking about general ethics, I still think that it's selfish and not the loving principle Jesus preaches that most christians are nice so they can go to heaven and avoid bad things because otherwise they'll end in hell. (Yes, I know, many will say that they'll go to heaven because they believe in Jesus; that good works won't buy you heaven; that we're all destined to hell anyway and can only escape through the grace of Jesus offer etc.; and that once Jesus has entered your heart, you're a nice person all by yourself and act accordingly. But I'm talking about real daily life here.)

If the only reason a child is good is because he gets a cookie, and the only reason he isn't bad because he doesn't want to be spanked - then I don't think he is good and not bad. He's selfish thinking only of himself and reward and punishment. (I know that many parents use this pedagogic approach - but that doesn't make it right, or better.)

A real good person does good and not bad because he knows about other people's feeling and he doesn't want to cause hurt and the like. (The golden rule, if you like to.) Every person can feel in his heart what would be right to do and what not (at least at the beginning - many people learn to ignore their conciousness pretty good by bringing in a variety of excuses, from "the end justifies the means" to "it's a bad world, every man for himself, and since I'm smart, I take first").

So, growing dissatisfied with a system of reward and punishment, and asking intelligent questions about God and religion is to me a necessary part of growing up spiritually. Sadly most people (no personal indication of any posters here intended!!!) never allow themselves to grow up spiritually, they remain on the child-level of their respective faith, until some radical event shakes them off ("How could God allow that bad to happen to me when I went to church every sunday?") or they continue till their death.

If you want to know, my personal faith is protestant, and my attitude has changed a lot since I was confirmed with 14 (like most young people, I took religion very seriously, but I was always interested.)
I was very lucky in having a sensible religion teacher at school, a sensible priestess at church, and no old bigottic fundies in my family, so when my attitude changed, I didn't need to throw all of my faith away because my religion hadn't oppressed me before.

Today, I think of my religion a bit as of my nationality: it's part of my cultural heritage, because I grew up with it. It has good and bad parts, like other religions that contain parts of the trught. And good, exemplary followers and some loonies, things in its history to be proud of and to be ashamed of. I won't discard it for some exotic eastern flavor, because I can find what's necessary there as well. (And not for money reasons, either, as most people do.) But I no longer believe it with the fierceness that comes of youthful naivity.

Thanks, Constanze. I haven't read those books, but they sound interesting. Maybe I gave up religion because it was narrow and oppressive, but that only motivated me to do what I should have done in any case. I just see no reason to believe in Christianity, even in a more benign form.

An interesting thought in Constanze's post that truly good people do good because they care for other people. From MikeC's description, it sounds like the citizens of Heaven will be above things like compassion, so that motivation won't apply any more. The people in Hell will be just abstractions to them (or nonexistent?), even though their suffering will be very real. After all, to Christians, this isn't about fictional characters or environments like Star Trek. To them, this is actually going to happen. That kind of blows my mind, although I wonder sometimes how many Christians really believe it deep down as much as they believe, say, that what they can see with their eyes is real. I suspect there are a lot of doubters out there who are afraid to admit it, even to themselves. After all, they don't want to burn forever. So best not to explore

If God is really that cruel, I can't help thinking none of us are safe. Would I feel safe in Hitler's bunker, even if he promised to take care of me? If he promised to put other people in the gas chambers, but not me?

I also have to point out that, as far as I can recall the Lazarus story, he was never mentioned as accepting Jesus (or God), so that makes me wonder what we're supposed to gather from that story. It sounds like it was more "selfish vs. needy" than "believer vs. non-believer." So what's the lesson?

Lazarus could not have accepted Jesus; Jesus hadn't died at that time yet. He did definitely accept God.

Isn't that the very nature of faith as well to accept God's Word as Truth? God has said what he requires, what he will give, how he will punish. I gave up my feelings of guilt and fear when I accepted Christ; I am confident that He is telling the truth. (Note, This is a personal example, applicable just to me, please don't treat this like I'm trying to scientifically proof God-as-Truth here)

Ok so when we get to heaven we will no longer be human? We will no longer have the very things that drive us and make us human? Very interesting. I don't think I like that either.

As for guilt and fear I gave those up and feel much less guilt about my life and my behavioir than i did when i had religion. religion was a big lie to me and i didn't buy into it and won't buy into with my kids.

Giving up what makes us human sounds puzzling and confounding, but that is precisely because we are human. I would analogize it to if you grew up eating dirt and someone gives you a nice steak. Sounds scary: You've only been used to eating dirt. Dirt tastes great. But steak is even better and once you eat steak, why would you eat dirt again?

Ok I am not sure what else i can add other than to say that I find it to be more mature to be able to step back and look at relgion with a critical eye. I mean I certainly feel better mentally speaking since i left relgion behind almost ten years ago.

As for evolving beyond humanity, yes it does sound confusing because if we are beyond the negative emotions we are also beyond the positive emotions. So whatever we do in heaven or hell will be menaingles as will whatever we did on earth. (except to those we left behind)

As for the steak and dirt analogy any open minded person would try the steak. A person who wanted a broad enough diet or palate or whatever would eat the dirt again.

As for books diane duane's the wounded sky has an interesting take on god that i find funny and scary enough plausible.

And MikeC like I said on the evo vs creat board I do appreciate your being able to discus this ,even if we don't agree, as two adults and not degenerate into the I'm right you're wrong level too many thigns do.

Maybe the dirt analogy is still too even-handed, I guess. Let me try a better one: You live in a relationship where your spouse abuses you. This is the only kind of "love" you know. Now if you are given an actual love, you would NEVER go back to the abusive one, you would never even consider that relationship as preferable again. But it would be difficult to comprehend when still in a state of ignorance. That is what I believe the heaven/human thing to be.

Mike that analogy works exactly from the other point of view, too.

Mike,

that analogy is very problematic. As counselors or people who know those who grew up in abusive relationships will tell you, a person who only knows abuse doesn't simply turn around and "see the light" when in a loving relationship. Quite the contrary, they can't cope with it. They don't know what's expected of them, they can't comprehend that there's another kind of love out there if all they've ever seen is abuse.

That's why in real life, victims (children and women mostly) go back to their abusers or to a similar relationship. They know what to expect. They even may think "Well, it's my fault that he's beating me, because I upset him", thus they delude themselves that they are in control of the situation. In a loving relationship, they don't know the rules.

Also, abuse creates low self-esteem. The victims feel they deserve abuse to some point (just not much). They don't feel they deserve love, because they don't believe themselves to be worthy of it. (Think the famous Groucho Marx line "I would never join a club that would accept somebody like me as a member.")

Human feelings are very complicated and not logical at all.

A better analogy would be that while human, we're blind, but in heaven, we can see. A blind person (from birth) can't imagine color.

Though that's also flawed, as many people will tell you they've experienced perfect moments during their life - of being together with their loved ones; being one with nature; or experiencing a perfect moment of spiritual transcending, as some mystics and saints do.

I wonder how come you are so sure people in heaven will no longer be human, but something else? It's stated much less clear than other things in the Bible.

About the Lazarus story: Jesus told the story not to illustrate how hell was like, or that people in heaven could look down there, but why the rich should care about the needy people.

here is an interesting article how important the poor are in the Bible, and why a rich Christian is really a contradiction in itself. (Jesus did tell the young man to give away all his wealth, because the end of the world was near. He was a bit wrong on that date, which means today, we must interpret his teachings for today's society: Is it okay to keep 3 world countries dependant on us and pay them low wages? Is it okay to scrap minimum wages and social security programs and welfare because a few people abuse it?)

That's a very good example (the blindness one); I apologize for picking a flawed one, I was kind of thinking on the run.

And good insight as to the problems of being rich. As Paul said, money is not the root of evil, the LOVE of money is. Christians do have a social duty that a lot of people forget.

Mike, I don't think that there is a really good analogy for the point you are trying to make -- although I agree that Constanze's blindness analogy comes close. (In a way that sort of is the point of your point -- that we can't imagine what a heavenly existence is like.)

C. S. Lewis, in considering the same issue, compared it to talking about sex to child:

As regards the fast, I think our present outlook might be like that of a small boy who, on being told that the sexual act was the highest bodily pleasure, should immediately ask whether you ate chocolates at the same time. On receiving the answer no, he might regard absence of chocolates as the chief characteristic of sexuality. In vain would you tell him that the reason why lovers in their carnal raptures don't bother about chocolates is that they have something better to think of. The boy knows chocolate: he does not know the positive thing that excludes it. We are in the same position.

mmmm ... chocolate ...

Supposedly, there will be no sadness in heaven. I think if the souls there knew (or cared) what was happening to their former loved ones in the lake of fire, they would be very sad indeed.

Very funny episode of (the show which must not be discussed, unfortunately, but it's right after Malcolm in the Middle) last night, which dealt with this current thread on this very topic.

What was the title of the ep.?

"Thank God It's Doomsday". Of course, the Show-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named rarely displays titles for its eps. Just for the record, there is a nice site that has quite a few good bits of info on the series, as well as a few nits. It can be found here - Springfield Nuclear Power Plant.

Annoyed Grunt (The explanation for that tagline can be found on the website I've linked.)

I didn't mean to repeat myself with that last post about heaven. I meant to add that maybe this is a Biblical answer to my question about what those in Heaven will be feeling about the situation (since the discussion was about perceptions being different there).

Isn't there a site for the show just referenced by Benn that focuses primarily on nits (like this one)?

Like I said, the site I referenced does list many continuity goofs in its episode capsules. Here's a sample page to show you what their episode capsules are like. Unfortunately, the site is not current with this season.

Annoyed Grunt (Sorry for the thread-jacking!)

Some very interesting, compelling stories of all types in this thread. I had hesitated to venture into this Religious Musings threads because of some painful experiences on other sites when the subjects of religion, faith or Christianity came up. But I'll take my chances here - we all seem a bit more civilized than the average Netizens.

I'll post my tale first, and then I'd like to come back and make some observations later, if I might.

I grew up quasi-Irish Catholic. By "quasi-" I mean that my mother and her family were all staunch Irish Catholics (grandparents from Co. Mayo, God help us) but my father and his family were marginally Catholic. Parents both went to parochial schools in west Philadelphia, if that tells you anything.

I remember being forced to go to church as a child, and hating it for the most part, except for the 9:15 folk Mass. I remember people acting pious in worship and being angry, self-centered jerks in the parking lot (it wasn't easy getting in and out of Immaculate Conception's parking lot). As a teen I tried to fit in at the youth group at a new Catholic church my family went to, but wasn't welcomed by the clique in power.

When I was 10, someone gave me one of those Chick Tracts, which scared the hell out of me, if you'll pardon the pun. I spent the better part of a year in fear, abject fear, of God and death and my own sinfulness. For nearly 15 years after that, no one ever explained to me how God becoming human 2,000 years ago and dying and coming back from the dead had any effect on my sin. I lived with doubt, uncertainty, and a weak faith, despite having moved from the Catholic youth group to an Episcopal one that I was invited to by two friends from marching band, and having experienced God's love expressed through others in the group.

In college, when the leaders of a Christian campus group told a friend of mine she had to stop dating her Jewish boyfriend or she'd end up in Hell, I walked away from Christianity, the Church and God, confusing the messenger for the Message, and not wanting anything to do with who I saw as a narrow-minded, hateful deity. I spent most of my college years in the usual parties, weekends at the bars - more than the usual for me because I and my friends were all dee-jays - any trying to pick up women (unsuccessfully).

But I also took a class at the University of Maryland called "Life in the Universe". In this class, we studied a bit of astrophysics, astronomy, nuclear physics, quantum theory, biology, anthropology, and on. For the final exam, the professor suggested a helpful way to study was to write out a timeline from the big bang to the rise of industrial civilization. I did, and in my confrontationalist style, wondered just how badly the Bible's story of creation derivated from the scientific one. I went back to my room, grabbed a Bible I'd been given by that Episcopal youth group when I graduated high school, took it back to where I was studying, and opened it to Genesis 1, and went point-by-point down my timeline.

Imagine my surprise when I realized the Genesis story had the order of creation the same as scientific theory...the only difference was the time involved. I thought, "hmm, maybe there's something to this old book after all." I began a slow journey of careful exploration back to faith in God.

It was not easy. When I dropped out of college for a year and moved in with my parents, I was more than a bit off-put by their very open, evangelical church. "Praise God!" people would say, and I would squirm in my seat. "Let's pray about this" someone would ask, and I would look for the nearest exit. But the junior high youth group needed some hired muscle to sit on the boys from time to time, and my mother is a pit-bull when she gets an idea in her head, so to shut her up, I went to be the hired muscle one night.

Four years later, I had gone from reluctant pew potato to youth leader, Bible study leader, and budding minister. It was not a trip of blind faith - every step of the way I carefully and critically evaluated what I'd been told about God, about faith, about how to live. I didn't accept everything I was told, but I did finally find an explanation for the cruifixion and resurrection that made sense to me, and transformed my understanding of my relationship with God.

Since that time in the late 1980s, I have travelled an even stranger road. When I felt I was being called to youth ministry, friends told me that they had been praying for me and they felt God could use me and teach me some powerful things about youth ministry in Southern California, so without a job, a place to live, never having been there before and not knowing a soul there, I packed up and moved from Pennsylvania to San Clemente, California. From there, to a dance club ministry in Greenwich, Connecticut (whose original d.j. was Moby...yes, THAT Moby), to a few years in furlough working in retail to seminary to becoming an ordained Presbyterian minister now looking to work/teach in college ministry.

I've said God has to have a warped sense of humor if he made me a pastor. He also has to have a sense of humor to deal with some of the other idjits who do stuff in His name, who I will not mention here but suffice to say if you watch cable tee-vee around 6:30 or 7:00 in the morning, you'll catch their infomercials pitching miracle spring water or personally-anointed prayer cloths or personal prophecies.

But overall I would have to say that the amount of evidence I have looked at - historical, philosophical and scientific - has given me reason to believe that God is, that God became human in the form of Jesus of Nazareth, that Jesus claimed to be God, that Jesus was crucified, died and came back from the dead, and that overall this has been a good thing for humanity.

Yeah, the Church has had more than its share of usurpers, charlatans, power-hungry zealots, and other people who have sought to corrupt faith to their own personal ends, but we've also had wonderful people through the centuries like Perpetua and Felicitas, Augustine of Hippo, Theresa of Avila, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Hus, Dietrich Bonhoffer, Mother Theresa, John Stott, not to mention the countless billions of faithful who have lived amazing lives in obscurity, perhaps they and the world never knowing the impact they had on the world.

Me? I'm just a schlub, trying to live out what I believe in the most faithful way possible. Makin' mistakes along the way, and experiencing a lot of grace as a result.

Interesting story, Kyle. And food for thought. Thanks for sharing that.