I have allways wondered what defines evil, and I've come up with several thoughts. First let me give some strongly held beliefs which I won't budge on.

Firstly, Evil is an adjective that can only describe two things. 1. People and 2. People's behavior toward other people.

It's my belief that to be evil is to believe one thing. It's the belief that "I'm more worthy than you not because of your actions but because of something about you and I therefore have the absolute right to do things to you regardless of what anybody else thinks."

So a lot of religion is evil?

Evil isn't so much of a thing, as it is the lack of good. To be dark is to lack light, to be proud is to lack humility, to be decietful is to lack the truth, to be hatefull is to lack compassion, to be violent is to lack restraint, to be cowardly is to lack valor, et cetra. Ultimately, to be evil is to be without virtue, and without God. For if God is all things that are good, merciful, just, veracity, love and the like, then evil exists where God is not present. So the answer of why evil exists in the world? Because the light of God is only partially here.

You can be without god without being evil. That is a common fallacy by christians and others with relgiion that if you do not have god then you must be evil and less worthy than us. That feeling and attitude is evil in and of itself.

I have to agree that evil is an adjective. Although I feel that it describes a person's actions more than the person themselves. A person is neutral generally speaking. Their actions are good or evil.

Your point is reasonable, but I have to take objection when you call Matt's point a "fallacy." This implies that it is logically wrong. However, if you go by the logic of what Matt believes regarding the nature of God, it is completely not a fallacy.

OK tainted logic. As in if you have god then you are good but if you do not ahve god then you are evil. Pesti:Ultimately, to be evil is to be without virtue, and without God. An either/or probability sum.

How about calling it this then. An insult that I have heard (and had levied at me) by christians, that if you do not have god then you are an evil scum sucking piece of trash.

I feel that if you do not have god you are lost. It sounds like most of the christians you know are rather angry types.

Yeah you could say that. AT the best they pity you and the worst they throw you away.

I meant the christians I have encountered. I mena its not like I make a great spectacle out of being an aethiest but neither do i hide it. I think too many people wear their religion on their sleeves because they have to make a big spectacle fanfare out of anythign. I mean people who pray over their food at mcdonalds (which come to think of it might not be a bad idea) is ok but if they do so in a loud boomign voice that can be heard across the store then look at you like you just threw dung on them when you shush them is a bit much. Or all the different bumper stickers. I mean one or two on a car is nice but there is a van around milford that has and i am not lying 20 different religious stickers on the back alone. What is the point of that? Is it to say that look at me i am more religious than you because i display it more?

Same way with all those yellow ribbon magnets and support the troops magnets and pow magnets and pink magnets. Supporting troops etc.. is nice but when does it just become a I'm doing more because i have more magnets on my car than you ego trip?

You didn't really shush somebody who was praying, did you?

Are the angry Christians you encounter that way in general or only with you? Or only with admitted atheists? I haven't seen much of that, but then very few people know my beliefs.

Yes I did. I was over 4 boothes away and I had waited over am inute. Its not like he started in and I shushed him. NO he went on and on and on like it was some kind of service or something and I was not the only person in the place who was bothered by it. I was the only one who had the guts to tell the old fart to please keep it down as he is causing a disturbance in public. He complained to the manager and the manager who was on the other side of the building, in the kitchen, and heard him took my side and told him to either say quick prayer and be done with it or keep it quiet. He swore he was never coming back and everyone else was quite happy. I normally don't shush someone for praying if they just do a quick hail mary or somethign you know. I do try to get along with the religious folk but that was going to far by him. I am not ashamed of what I did and would do so again and be proud of it.

Well I am one of those people for various other reasons who can be difficult to know but that is because i am a bit intense in what i do, regardless of what it is. As for the religion anger I don't know exactly what it is, but there have been instances when I would be getting to know someone either i worked with or was in school with back in college and we would be doing good and thigns would be going great and then either they would ask or somehow it would come out in discussion of subjects that I did not have religion as a part of my life. Then thigns would progress to drift apart or fall to pieces immediately. I mena ranging from a girl going lets just be friends to a guy I was working with telling me I was going to burn in hell forever for being an unrepentant sinner.

During the great same gender marriage ban thign last year there was a church group who was trying to drum up votes outside krogers in milford and they equated homosexuality with godlessness and other evils. (and yes i did complain to the manager at krogers and got them removed from the property.)

For some reason that krogers is a lightning rod for church groups and trouble. Last christmas there was not a bell ringer but a 6 piece band playing their instruments loud enough to be heard from the back of the store. I wasnt the only person who complained that time. And yes they where told to leave.

I do not hide my beliefs but then neither do i go out of my way to advertise them. Most of the time I apear just like any other average person. I even like to occasionally wear a silver celtic cross my wife gave me when we first got together. I actually do like the artistry of religion, but some of what it stands for is what i don't like.

I don't believe all religion is evil. I said, evil can only be used to describe people and their behaviors. I think religion gives evil people an excuse to be evil. They're reason for thinking themselves more worthy is "I'm closer to god than you are therefore I have the absolute right to do this to you." When in fact they go against some of the most basic rules of the religion. Case in point, the spanish inquision, which I feel the church is evil, as they felt they had a right to kill jews. One of the most important of the ten commandments which applies to both Christians and Jews in my opinion is Thou shall not kill. Period. Not "Thou shall not kill other followers of god." Quite frankly I feel the inquistion leaders were as much true christians as Osama bin Laden is a true Muslim.

I'd agree. That is a dangerous route for people to take.

Ok I am not sure where the moderator will want to put this but since I find the priest's behavior to be if not evil at the very least reprehensible I'll put it here.

In Cold Springs Kentucky the Rev. Larry Davis of the First Baptist Church has been indicted on charges ranging from fraud, theft and tax evasion.

From the cincinnati enquirer:
"A seven-count federal indictment returned Wednesday says Davis submitted a false loan application to Fifth Third Bank, evaded federal income taxes for four years, and transferred stolen church money across state lines to buy the Porsche 911 and a minivan."

the amount of money they are talking about is 700,000$

Some more form the enquirer's article:
"Much of the money was diverted from building funds for the once rapidly growing congregation, the indictment says. Fifth Third Bank loaned the congregation $3.5 million in April 2002 to construct a multimillion-dollar sanctuary with a wrap-around balcony, brass chandeliers and flat-screen TVs.

Davis then fired the general contractor and appointed himself to the post.

All the time, he was stealing church money, according to the indictment, by making checks out to himself, writing out checks for cash and withdrawing money from automatic teller machines. Some of those ATM withdrawals were at horse racetracks.

Van Tatenhove, who traveled from Lexington to hold a press conference on the steps of the U.S. Courthouse in Covington, said one of the most outrageous purchases was the Porsche.

Public records show that in 2002 Davis purchased a 1993 or '94 model special edition Porsche 911, called RS America.

By September 2003, the church was running short on money to pay contractors."

Lovely man. What is even sadder is that his congregation has said that he will continue to be their preacher. Of course this church has had a few other problems in the past including being very intolerant of its own members.

Cincinnati Enquierer
"March 17, 2004: The congregation fires anyone holding a position at the church that had attended an alternative worship service, calling their behavior "un-Christian"

I'm going to make a post in PM tomorrow, based on a new book I've been reading this week. Your post will fit in with the theme of that book, and I'll see if Luigi and I can get together to move it there after I make my post, or maybe you can just repost there. (My book review will tie in your criticism with other "church/state" issues that are not what some people assume.)

Cool no problem.

I didn't find anywhere that it really fit and I didn't want to create a whole new conversation for just this so I dropped it here. Sort of a closest fit since theiving is considered to be evil as is abuse of power and trust.

I look forward to what you are talkking about with the book review.

"It's my belief that to be evil is to believe one thing. It's the belief that "I'm more worthy than you not because of your actions but because of something about you and I therefore have the absolute right to do things to you regardless of what anybody else thinks.""-Michael Conlon

See, this is the logical problem with relativism. By that definition, you are evil for beliving that 'evil is believing one thing.'
That's one thing you believe in, therefore you are evil as well.
I know that people don't like to admit it, but there is such a thing as truth, and if there isn't, you's better not try to debate it, or you're guilty of trying to prove that your side is true, anyway.


"So the answer of why evil exists in the world? Because the light of God is only partially here."-Matt Pesti

And we humans are here all the way. :-)
(By the way- well said!)


"I don't believe all religion is evil. I said, evil can only be used to describe people and their behaviors. I think religion gives evil people an excuse to be evil."-Michael Conlon

I would argue that without religion, you can't HAVE evil- Without God, who defines good and evil? If its man that defines it, then isn't evil a relativistic thing, based solely on the beliefs of each individual? If so, doesn't that eventually run into the error described above?
Perhaps, for the sake of argument, it is possible to be evil without God, but without good and evil defined by a higher authority than ourselves, what good is it?

I can't speak for all relgions, of course, but for Christianity we're already evil. Every one who's ever had a selfish thought or told a lie or stolen a penny.
That is due, in large part, to the fact that evil is, essentially, lack of being good. (think of it like a glass- if it's full, it's full, but if there's even a little gap, it's not full. Likewise, no one can be truly good unless they are completely good. We can do good things, but we can never be %100 good if there's any bad.)
So, when there are groups calling you and everyone around you evil (an essential belief, yes, but a tactless way of expressing it that drives me, as a fellow Christian, up the walls as well,) the fact they often neglect to mention is that they believe that they are evil as well, along with everyone on Earth. And it's only by the grace of God ("Yeah, you're evil, but I love ya anyway!") and the forgiveness of that evil that we can be saved. (All of this is a roundabout way, I suppose, of saying "don't take it personally, and try to remember that there are probably some atheists out there with no tact, too. :-) A few hipocrites don't speak for all of us.")


"One of the most important of the ten commandments which applies to both Christians and Jews in my opinion is Thou shall not kill. Period."-Michael Conlon

Just to be technical, it's actually "Thou shalt not murder" literaly. (Which, by the way, I believe that the inquisition WAS.)

R: I did not claim that piety is the line between good and evil, I claimed the divine was. Humanity has been granted an animal body and a divine soul, and the moral law has been written into it's heart (Please replace with cognate concepts concerning divinity and morality, if you choose). This is for humanity in general, not Christians in particular.

(I mean, whats the point of trying to define evil if the definition isn't universal?)

Harming another is evil I will agree with you that that would be a universal definition. That is basically what I am trying to say. Doing harm to another, actual harm not just perceived, is evil. Much of what is called evil is just a relative POV difference between a specific definition of a behavior based on a religion vs the pov based on either another religion or belief system. But since not everyone has the exact same POV even within the same religion or church much of the strife is caused by the clash between the points of view.

For example I am an aethiest. I do not believe in a divine soul. A person is formed from the cells, they are born, they live, and then they die. All with nothing divine about them (as in spiritually divine, i think you see what i am trying to say). Born an animal die an animal to put it into the terms you used. But that does not make a person any less special. In contrast to me life is all that much more special and wonderful because we only get one chance at it and there is no second chances or afterlife to look foreward to. (I may be wrong, if I am then so be it, but as i see it now tahts what i believe)

So some thigns are universal, some things are relative. And humanity continues to exist either way.

A definition of evil as harm? Workable, but riddled with exceptions.

Your point of view argument is flawed. Most cultures have come to similar conclusions on what is wrong. The Ten Commandments, for example, pretty much covers the bases on what humanity, as a whole, considers bad.* The major questions are agreed upon. Sure, there are minor cultural differences, but hardly not the chaos you describe. You make it sound as if the FBI and the Mafia both have equally valid worldviews.

The Soul, in this context, is a metaphyisical idea that predate the Christian era for everything unique about humanity not shared by animals, and includes rationality, spirituality, emotion, and the like. It does not require divine creation or immortality, but those are usually associated with the concept.

Your materialistic worldview doesn't account for meaningless suffering. You may end up with the Dark Willow Theory just as easily. (aka Put humanity out of its misery) But then again, historically speaking, most atheists hail from comfortable times.

*Nice try, but most cultures have rules about not disrespecting the gods, like 1-3.

I DIDN'T SAY TO BELIEVE JUST ONE THING IS EVIL! Jeez, cant you read?

I said that to be evil is to believe that "I'm more worthy than other people, not because of my/their actions, but because of something about me/them, and therefore I have the absolute right to do whatever suits me to them."

I said that to be evil is to believe that "I'm more worthy than other people, not because of my/their actions, but because of something about me/them, and therefore I have the absolute right to do whatever suits me to them."


So when a religious person says "because i am a christian (or other relgion but i am using christian because it is the one i have encountered this the most with)and god has given me the right to tell you how to behave or treat you like you are less worthy or valuable a person than i am if you do not beliueve the way i do" they are evil? I would ahve to agree with that.

I agree that is wrong. But that is not how Christians are commanded to believe.

Yeah, well a lot of todays christians pick and choose which words of the bible they follow. Some of which I have no problem with. If you followed the strict word of the bible, no one can ever get divorced, and some marraiges these days if they don't end in divorce, will most likely end in a gunshot.

Well, then we get into another subject about how marriage is taken way to lightly these days. If divorce wasn't so common place, perhaps people would take greater care into choosing a mate.

I would also have to agree with you that it is wrong to view people as lesser based on just the fact that they are not christian (or of another religion). I don't beleive thats what the bible preaches at all. It commands us to reach out in love. In my opinion, these people who do look down on others just for the simple fact as a different aren't really showing what is right with christianity.

As for a universal definition of evil...it wont happen, since evil is very much based on a point of view, you will always find someone who views somethings as 'Evil', and another who views the same things as 'Not Evil'. For example, i view abortian as very evil, and yet people on these same message boards view the denial of an abortian as evil

Ok I am putting this here because it falls under this category IMO.

Pat robertson on his 700 club program of Monday that the US should assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez because he was going to turn his country into "the launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism".

Forgive me for being confused but I don't know too many muslim communists. Or is he saying that the two groups will play nice with each other in Venezuela? Either way but isnt that such a lovely christian thing for Robertson to say. /sarcasm

Oh well Robertson nothing new for robertson. He seems to be quite adept at putting his foot in his mouth.

I've felt for a long time that Pat was too political for me. At least, unlike his contemporaries Swaggart and Baker, Pat resisted sex scandals or embezzlement schemes.

MikeC, Robertson prefers to keep his money in things like diamond mines in Africa that use slave labor and violence to keep mining the diamonds.