Religious/philosophical debates exist over what the beginning actually is. According to religions such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, the beginning was through supernatural intervention. There of course, are others who say that there is no divine intervention and so forth.

For those who don’t believe that “God” created the cosmos, how was the beginning created? Based on the idea of causality, I’m curious how a beginning could exist without some supernatural intervention. In other words, what got the whole thing going?

Note: Life is not like Star Trek, so no “sorry, telling you would violate the temporal prime directive”

Then who or what created "G-d"?

Well, asking what created God is using non-supernatural logic. That is, trying to use science that is restricted to things that aren't supernatural. In other words, the question is flawed because you're trying to answer something supernatural using guidelines if it were that are don't allow for the supernatural. (Just like how you can't use the same computational analysis techniques that are used to model subsonic fluid flow to model supersonic fluid flow.)

What I was wondering was how do people who don't belive in any supernatural explain the origins of the universe.

And in answer to your question about who or what created G minus d, well I assumed it was Luigi Novi. Either that, or a desire not to type the letter "o" for some reason.

In the beginign there was the giant cosmic hamster who sneezed and the whole universe came about..........

Actually without considering a supernatural being who created the superdense singularity that the entire universe sprang from I have no clue. Looking backwards we have now, we have the past, we have the big crunch where the universe was a hyperdense super singularity and we have ? before that. Until science progresses sufficiently to get to ? we won't know for sure.

Well PV I sincerely doubt LuigiN had anythign to do with god or he with him either.

Unless it's the omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent god that some believe it. Then Luigi (and everyone for that matter) would have everything to do with that god.

Actually, R, it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Arr!

Unless the 'Law of conservation of Matter' somehow gets repealed, the origin of the universe is an impossibility

Under the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, it's not impossible. It's quite possible that the Universe is merely a zero-point quantum fluctuation that got out of hand.

I forgot about that ScottN, but are you sure it wasn't the great golden hamster?. His fur shining of the highest molten brass. From Whom his divine snot formed the burning stars......

Well for being impossible it sure hurts like heck if I drop a rock on my toe.

Without going into vulcan on me ScottN refresh/correct me on the Zero Point flux thing.

Thats where somethign appears from basically nothing because you are pulling matter from a higher( or is it lower) quantum reality but is usually in such small quantities that it is still esentially nothing from a classical POV? If thats it then where did that matter come from to be pulled into this frame of reference?

No, you're a bit mistaken.

This really belongs in Science Nightstand, but what the heck. I'll simplify as best I can.

Everyone (ok, not everyone, but you know what I mean) knows that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (UP) means that you can't measure both the position and momentum of a particle. The product of the uncertainties must always exceed a certain value. This is not a limitation of our observation equipment, but a fundamental result of wave/particle duality.

What most people DON'T know is that the UP doesn't just apply to position and momentum, but also to any "complementary properties". In this particular case, the complementary properties we are interested in are Energy and time.

Now, the energy due to the mass of anything in the universe is positive (E = mc^2). But the gravitational energy generated by that mass is negative, resulting in a net energy near zero. If the energy is known to be near zero, then the uncertainty in time can -- nay, must be -- a very large value, including the present value of the age of the Universe.

Google for Edward Tryon and vacuum fluctuation.

Also, read this.

Actually, R, it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Blasphemy! Everyone knows it was the great Invisible Pink Unicorn (May Her Holy Hooves Never Be Shod)

Under the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, it's not impossible. It's quite possible that the Universe is merely a zero-point quantum fluctuation that got out of hand. - ScottN

Well, maybe there's no beginning.. but something just ended when you said that... Not sure what though... All I heard was a small pop...

In any case... Is not physics, heavy physics that is, actually a religion?

Like religions, it can almost explain the beginning of things, the origins if it were. It describes how things should act and should react. with all those conservation of laws out there... it can even be used as a basis for how things should get along.

No, because it provides testable, falsifiable statements and predictions. Therefore, it's science.

No, because it provides testable, falsifiable statements and predictions. Therefore, it's science. - ScottN

Can't you use that description to define politics too?

No, because physics actually has some correlation to the REAL world.

No it isn't. physics is just an in depth buildup of an interpretation of the way things work in the universe. But it is still just that, an interpretation. In other words, it's peception. Clearly physics is nothing more than a glorified philosophy.

So I assume then that you don't believe in Nuclear energy? Hiroshima, Three-Mile Island and Chernobyl never happened in your world, I guess. Must be a nice comfortable, safe place to live.

Yup, all Eco-terrorist propaganda, curse those hippies!

(for the record, I am kidding)

no, I believe in perfection... you know, that game where the pieces all pop up if you don't put them in time...

Its like a universe in itself... you have control over which pieces live, which pieces die, you have control over which pieces are most important have dominance over the others... heck, there's even a way to control time with "perfection"

and its not eco-terrorism... its the Earth Liberation Front... and lets not forget the chickens... http://www.upc-online.org

Pah, nonsense....
Everyone knows it was the Great Green Arkleseizure from Ventvogel VI that seneezed us into existence....
As for the so called "Pastafarians", they will meet their (truly deserved...?) fate when the Great White Hankerchief approaches....

If what I understand everyone to be saying...

Religion is just a joke...

OWWWWW! ScottN, I asked you not to go into Vulcan on me... ;-) Remember I'm jes a po' ol redneck whose knowledege of physics comes from PBS and the Demolition Derby.

Ok I knew that about the uncertainy principle (From all those years of sci-fi) or at least I think I do I'm not certain.

But if I understand you corectly about the zero point thing (I think) then what was I talking about? I remember there being a show on PBS about something what I was talking about.

IN the end everything is based on your perception of the universe. Do you think so you are or are you there because you think? But science is the closest thing to a universal perception that we have that also just happens to acurately describe how things work.

OWWWWW! ScottN, I asked you not to go into Vulcan on me... ;-) Remember I'm jes a po' ol redneck whose knowledege of physics comes from PBS and the Demolition Derby.

OK, the "non-Vulcan" version (Warning! this is greatly oversimplified, and as such deviates somewhat from a more rigorous accounting.): When you only consider the various conservation laws, the books have to balance when you compare one moment in the Universe to another. You can shift energy around from one part of the universe to another. You can change one form of energy into another (including the compact form known as "mass"), but the total must always be the same.

Heisenberg uncertainty says, however, that it is impossible to know exactly how much energy there is, and the less time you have to consider it, the greater the "fudge factor" you have to work with. The books don't have to balance exactly, you can ignore the pennies.

What Scott said is that there are theories that call for negative energy (or something that can be treated as negative energy) approximately equal to the positive energy of the universe. If this is true, then the total energy of the universe adds to about zero. If this total is low enough, then the Hesenberg uncertainty "fudge factor" will hold for a long time, perhaps even as long as the expected life of the universe.

That in turn means that for that length of time, there would be no essential difference between all the energy in the universe and no energy. During that time, a whole universe could pop out of nowhere or disappear into nothingness and the books would still balance. The Universe is Mother Nature's loose change.

Not bad, Tom. But in general, the energy caused by gravitational attraction winds up being subtracted from the mass/energy of the universe, not just "theories that call for negative energy".

The Universe is Mother Nature's loose change.

I like that one. I'll probably use it somewhere.

So given an infinite amount of time, could a thousand monkeies with a thousand magnifying glasses account for every bit of energy in the universe?

monkeys I mean...

(I love the english language... in addition to making a typo when I decided to make it plural... it doesn't follow the drop the "y" and add "ies" rule.. )

Only after a consonant, Torque.

TomM: The Universe is Mother Nature's loose change.

G-d doesn't play dice with the universe, but he does take it to the coinstar.

(I wish I could take credit for that one).

That's why I love it.

All the exceptions... i before e, but only if you say it when you're crossing your fingers...

...and I'm still looking for the R in the rank colonel. maybe its also the "R" who posts in Nitcentral...

(Yes,I know, that joke was lame...)

Oh ok. I think I understand this now. Sorta.

Basically what may have happened is that the universe did sort of like they did in office space the stuff that normally gets dumped in the rounding errors started collecting and added up to us? Lovely.

If thats the case then what in the name of the 9 hells was I talking about? I swear there was a show on PBS that presented that theory. Unfortuantely thats all I can recall about it.

No I'm not that R. I'm the R that rednecks and appalachians put into words. WaRsh yer windeRs fer ya?

I heard
Jeff Winters thinks that
the Creation did not happen.
What Do you think???