Since abortion is murder, abortion is wrong.
Abortion is the murder of an innocent child....
In your opinion, abortion is murder. Please do not talk in absolute terms like it was given to you in a note signed by God, the President of the United States, and Bill Gates.
Please tell me why abortion isn't murder, then.
And saying, "In your opinion, abortion is
murder" is like saying, "In your opinion, humans
need oxygen to breath".
Because you have to have life for there to be murder. And I do not believe that a fetus, up to a certain point, is life yet.
And saying, "In your opinion, abortion is murder" is like saying, "In your opinion, humans need oxygen to breath".
Once again, this is your opinion. I don't know why you bother to post on this topic if you won't listen to anyone else.
I think there's a bug of some sort on this particular board. Cuz Rene's previous post was originally there three times, then two of them disappeared, then mine doubled without me doing anything.
Matt: Two of them disappeared because I deleted them!
And I also deleted your double post. Hope you guys didn't mind...
How do you feel about the procedure known as "selective reduction"? Many of those new fertility treatments result in multiple pregnancies. While the sight of the Iowa septuplets can be charming, carrying four or more babies is very risky.
So, is it right to terminate some of those fertilized embryos to give the survivors a better chance at life?
I don't have anything wrong with that, as long as the procedure is performed early enough.
However, I do have to wonder why some people will spend tens of thousands of dollars on
fertility drugs and then have seven kids (and it will cost over a million dollars to take care of
those kids to age 18. Heck, it'll cost that much to get them to age 9!) Anyway, the point was
why not just adopt? There are plenty of kids out there who need a home and a loving family,
and I really think that we should deal with the kids that are out there now instead of bringing
more into the world (says the person who can't even drive yet…)
Of course, I can tell you right now what Rene's opinion will be.
line
Being an adopted child, I have a certain soft spot for adoption. I'm not really "in" to fertility treatment, and I'm wondering what's wrong with adoption? It is because "it's not yours". Well, if you have to spend hundreds on fertility treatments, is that any better than helping out a poor kid?
That one point about the four or five kids is tough and chilling. No one WANTS to stop life. There are times in which people state it is the only choice. I don't know. There are times when I feel it is not, but I'm not actually the person involved. God wants a chance for all of us to enjoy a happy life, I know that.
Actually, Adoption was used to combat Abortion by Mother Teresa and is still used by her order, the Missionaries of Charity. As For fertility drugs, they really have to limit those. The "Brood Syndrome" dosen't happen when the drugs are administered by a Doctor. That would make "Selective reduction unnessisary" There is also a waiting list for adoptive parents and we still have 1 million abortions a year.
(In M Jenkin's accusinary tone :-)What's wrong with not driving yet, I'm 18 in a fortnight and I can't drive:-> I think our opinions are very valid
Where do you live that the driving age is 18 or older? In Louisiana they just raised it from 15 to 16 right before I moved here (darn the luck!)
Ohio. the driving age is 15 1/2. If you want around red tape wait till your 18.
Red Tape is:
No driving after dark.
Mandatory insurance.
50 hours of driving with parent and 16 hours with driving instructure.
about 20 hours of Drivers education.
Drivers education
All but mandadory insurance die after after 18. In other words it easyier to married at 14 in Vermont than it is to get a driver's lincense in Ohio.
Regarding adoption, my wife and I have considered that, since I am infertile. However, it is cost prohibitive. In rough numbers it would cost 10 to 20K for the adoption. And in most cases, there are tons of legal hoops to jump through, especially for international adoption. We are trying to conceive now, using a sperm donor. (Without fertility drugs for my wife.)
As to abortion, I have always felt that it should remain legal. But having struggled with trying to create life for almost 3 years, I cannot imagine choosing to destroy a (?potential?) life. To me, life is so special. I would not consider abortion to be murder or a "sin". Mostly it just makes me very sad to think of terminating the chance for a wonderful life.
That's pretty much how I feel too, Cazbah. And adoption is costly (a shame).
Oh, and Matt: I'm in Michigan. Same rules apply, and frankly, I think it's a good idea, due to all the ugly crashes around the state. I just got a permit, and can drive...somewhat.
That's exactly what they said about above 55 miles driving. I think the remedy would be to make adoption cheaper. I mean we subsidize almost anything in this country, I think government subsities (Or tax break) wouldn't be too much to ask.
About those fertility treatments and why people spend thousands and thousands:
I think it is very hard to give up the idea of someday having your own biological child.
I have epilepsy, and the medication that I take for it could be very dangerous to my child if I ever got pregnant. During the time I was trying to get pregnant, I tried other, safer, medications, and they didn't work very well. So I had to go back to square one.
For a while, I was feeling sorry for myself because I probably will never feel a baby kick me, or have "the glow" (of course, I will never know what morning sickness is. But I didn't care about that. After all, I was throwing the Mardi Gras of pity parties! ) . And then I asked myself if I was ready to be a mommy, whether through adoption, or fertility treatment,. The answer was, "not right now."
Cute, Matt Pesti...real cute.
Anyway, back to topic: Again, I agree with Matthew (and so does my brother). We should take care of who's out there first.
My brother and I also have the same opinion: Abortion should be illegal after viability (or at least, tougher to do!), but not before. It's a collection of cells that couldn't possibly survive outside the mother's womb. Unless we start practicing petri dish incubation?
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/abortion_crime990808.html
The above link is a story on one reason why abortion should remain fully legal and is sometimes necessary, and, for what it's worth to Rene, I hope it'll give you something to think about.
As you may guess, I'm prochoice, very much so. I think adoption is a great alternative but unfortunately it seems most everyone only wants beautiful bouncing blonde baby boys (say that five times fast). Of course, that's a bit of an exaggeration but is true to a certain extent. I applaud those brave few who adopt special kids, with mental and/or physical disabilies, and/or that have been thrown from house to house cuz they were too much trouble, too disturbed or what have you.
I wish those who call themselves pro-life (who aren't; they're really pro-death but more on that later) would think of them, and all the other unwanted kids the number in the millions now. Those of us who are prochoice are the true pro-life advocates. Why? Cuz we aren't blinded by misguided religious faith. The religious wrong choose not to see what could happen in the future if you have millions more kids. More people means more crimes (resulting in more prison overcrowding), further depletion of the earth's natural resources, more fighting, more religious fanaticism (gee, I can't wait to see how many people are gonna be disappointed when they don't see jesus returning next year), more unwanted kids from mostly teen moms, with most of them coming dangerously close to dying if they have their kids, that is, if the kids' kids can even survive. Also, anyone who murders abortion doctors or workers or condones those who do are really pro-death themselves, more so than those they themselves accuse of being pro-death. But of course they just say that to deflect their own idiotically wrongful thinking.
To force any female of childbearing age, regardless of her age, to have kids, forces her to endure harsh ridicule from other kids who'd call her all kinds of names. She might even get it from religious folks who'd blame her for her prediciment, even if she was raped by whomever. Again, a bit of a stretch, yes, but it could and does happen sometimes. Wouldn't it already be almost too much for her to bear just being pregnant, and how she got that way to begin with? And if someone were to die giving birth (and who moreso than a pregnant teen or preteen girl--hey, it happens!), then that makes those who mistakenly call themselves pro-life actually pro-death. That, and the fact that any one of those unwanted kids born could one day become killers, which would then be condoned as well. I really wish people would get their heads out of their butts and think about these things but I guess it's too much for them to do.
Why do some people wish to further overpopulate the world, when its population will reach 6 BILLION by year's end, only double what it was 30 or so years ago. The story in the link above tells of one reason why crime and murder is down, due possibly to the lesser amount of teens and 20-somethings that would've done those crimes had they been born. Unfortunately, those Littleton killers weren't aborted when their moms had the chance. Those kids killed the wrong two people last.
I find it constantly amazing at how blinded people want to be cuz of how strongly they believe in whatever faith they choose to follow. Thus, I've got no patience for their BS. Yes, people are blinded by things other than religion, too, I know.
(BTW, whoever rigged these boards to automatically create links that are merely written in, THANK YOU! I tried manually entering one once before and it wouldn't do it, saying I had only one of two arguments. Huh? So, what the ****'s an argument in that context?)
Rodnberry-
I am Pro Choice also, but I disagree with some of your arguments. Sure, abortion will keep some criminals from being born, but it will also keep some inventors, world leaders, doctors, etc. from being born. Perhaps the person who would have found a cure for cancer or AIDS has already been aborted. Only God may know what the future holds for a growing embryo.
Again, I AM Pro Choice, but I think that choice should be considered very very deeply before it is made.
JoHanna,
Your decisions about trying or not trying to get pregnant are a great example of the best way to make abortion a non-issue. Make responsible choices before you act, and the chances are you won't have to make the tough decisions about abortion later. That sounded kind of preachy, didn't it? Sorry. Mostly, I wanted to applaud your courage in making sacrifices regarding your use of meds. That's the type of caring action that would make you a fine parent, should you choose to become one.
Rodnberry-
Wanted to make an issue of "misguided religious faith" but since I actually share the opinion ( we are talking about Jerry Falwell/crazed evangelist types, aren't we?) I don't think it's a big deal.
Rodenbury
It appears you are not being blinded by faith but by your own need of self presevation.
Criminal activity was lowered by tougher law enforcement and a better economy. Plus the report is UNPUBLISHED, meaning it's writters don't have engoth proof.
By your logic, Slaveholders should have called themselves Pro-Negro, because they provided slaves with food, community, housing and work, while abolitionists wanted to dump them in the street with no way to surport themselves.
Overpoupulation? My God! and we're still paying farmers not to produce food! We have plenty of resourses in this world the problems are 1. Distribution and 2. development.
As for Teenage mothers, IF YOU DON'T WANT KIDS, DON'T HAVE SEX. I know this might hard to accept, given the fondation of the pro-choice movement is "F%&@$#g is an entitlement". Death during childbirth is a tradedy, but it happens to women who want their children also. Abortion results in phyical or emotional damage in 91% of women. Some still die in botched abortion, mostly through loss of blood.
Also any wanted children could become blood thristy killers, since evil comes from the human heart. Humans will do evil until Doomsday.
Your're saying abortion should be legal because teenagers might be made fun of ?
You also appear to be blinded by your contempt for organized religion.
Viability, a child also can't exist on their own long after they are born. Should kill infants as well.
And end your silly pro death argument.
"Abortion is greatist destroyer of peace.... If a mother can kill her own child,what is left but for me to kill you and for you to kill me..... I repeat Abortion is murder."
Mother Teresa upon recieving the Noble Peace prize.
Abortion is a very touchy subject, and it would be highly improbable to change anyone's mind on a discussion board like this. Still, I'll throw in my two cents.
I'd like to begin by saying that, as a conservative, funadmentalist Christian, I am zealously pro-life, but I in no way advocate the murder of abortion practicioners. Those are seriously misguided people, and any murder is a brutal and cowardly act.
Also, while Matt Pesti beat me to this, I'd like to expand on it. Yes, people should abstain from sex until marraige. That was God's plan from the start: one man, one woman, for life. Sex is a gift from God, and it is a wonderful thing if used within his rules. They aren't arbitrary laws just to keep us from having fun; they're guidelines which keep us from getting hurt. Also, when a teenage girl turns up pregnant, she shouldn't be immediately alienated by all the Christians around her. They should indeed confront the problem according to Biblical instructions, but grudges shouldn't be held, especially if the person repents.
Also, I do not believe that Jesus is definitely coming in the year 2000. He could, but it wouldn't be just because it's the year 2000. Why in the world would God have to conform to our calendar? Besides, it says in the Bible that only God the Father knows when Jesus is coming back. If these beliefs still make me a "religious fanatic," okay, whatever. Then I'll label you a "secular fanatic." You seem just as zealous about your beliefs as I am about mine.
I seem to have a knack for wordiness in this kind of thing... Okay, on to the subject. I know that I'm never going to convince you from here that a human embryo is alive. Let me use this line of reasoning then: A human embryo, if nurtured within his/her (it does have the XX XY chromosme combination determined at conception) mother's womb and allowed to grow, will become a very living human being, even by your terms. By terminating that "fetal tissue," you are denying that human existance.
You are certainly living now. Let's say I went back in time and convinced your parents to abort you while you were still in your mother's womb. Now I come back to the present, and you are not living anymore. Is this not tantamount to murder? How is doing this any different from having an abortion in the present?
Before you say it, I am not saying that any missed opportunity to create a new human being is the same as abortion. Remember, I said that sex is good within God's guidelines. I would also like to point out that you were needlessly condescending and insulting in your post. This is a place for civil discussion.
You are certainly living now. Let's say I went back in time and convinced your parents to abort you while you were still in your mother's womb. Now I come back to the present, and you are not living anymore. Is this not tantamount to murder? How is doing this any different from having an abortion in the present?
No, it's not the same. You didn't muder me because I never existed. It's like the "grandfather paradox." You kill your grandfather, therefore you never existed, therefore you never went back in time… but you didn't kill yourself because you never existed in the first place. If you think about it, the you that you are now is almost completely different than the you that you were at birth. (Further discussion can be found in the book The Metaphysics of Star Trekby Guild member Dr. Richard Hanley.)
I am pro-choice because in some cases, it is the only way, and the right must be protected for those cases. But I find it a horrible thing to do if you just don't want a kid. If you don't want a kid, don't have sex. It's that simple.
That really wasn't the point I was trying to get across. I guess it comes back to whenever fetal tissue "becomes" a person, if you will. In that respect, we won't get very far, because we won't agree on a common set of terms on which to base our arguments.
But I would have to ask you: In your mind, when does an embryo become a person? Is it arbitrary, or is there some chemical or metaphysical process that occurs? Is there any practical distinguishment between a woman without a fetus and a woman with a fetus in early stages? If so, why?
These are questions you kind of have to answer if you're going to go deeply into this discussion.
Andrew,
I agree that the questions you ask are very important. I think they are the types of questions any person who is contemplating an abortion should consider. After considering such questions and searching their heart and (in my opinion) praying for guidance, that person should then be legally free to choose what is best.
We all pray and live for a world without abortion or a need or a thought to.
In my opinion, these are some things we can do to help this right now.
1. Sex should be for married couples only, as I believe they are the ones who are intended to have children. While I don't agree, if you do have pre-marial sex, use protection and try to wait if possible!
2. If you end up with an unwanted child, consider all possible alternatives. Is it possible for you to have this child? Do you want to? If you don't want to, do you know someone who might want one? How did you end up with this child? If it happened because you made love to twenty guys in a bar, then I'm not exactly sympathetic.
3. The biggest "trouble spots" are cases of rape, incest, and teenage pregnancies. Rape is very troubling, although I understand that if you get to a hospital after rape, they can stop any pregnancies before they advance to the life stage. I don't pretend to know the answers--I know that the Lord wants a world where abortions don't happen, and I think we should try to make this happen in any way possible.
4. The bit about aborting the murderers is irrevelant. Nobody knows their child is going to be a murderer.
Just a reminder that not all women who have abortions are unmarried.
Andrew - That was God's plan from the start: one man, one woman, for life. Sex is a gift from God, and it is a wonderful thing if used within his rules.
Whose god do you refer to? Yours? The rest of the world's? And to be quite frank, I don't think sex is a gift from your god. It's a practical solution to species preservation. (IMO, of course). And yes, I know this is under a religions musings board...I just happen to entirely disagree with you on that point. :)
Matt Pesti - Excuse me? What is an entitlement? Having sex is not an entitlement. It's a responsibility, and should be treated as such. Unfortunately, most teens aren't going to forego their sexual activities as long as they think that they'll be helped if they get themselves into trouble. And there's no reason to insult the entire pro choice side of the argument because you disagree with one member. Keep it limited to that one member, please. I very much dislike getting thrown into the same categories as a few other people, hence my "adversarial" stance (as you called it).
Abortion is murder part: I now ask this. Overpopulating the planet, condemning millions of unwanted children to a life of poverty, THAT'S better than abortion? We should be adding to the population of the planet when we can't take care of what we have? I'd have to say that THAT is what murder is. Why can't we take care of who we have first before trying to add more of who we don't want?
Well, folks, it looks like I've got a lot to reply to so here goes.
Cazbah
Yes, I agree with you that perhaps the person(s) who may one day find the cure for AIDS could've been aborted already, but don't you think that someone else could've already been born who will discover that cure, or for cancer or STD's or whatever? Or that that person will be born very shortly? Why does only one person have to be born to discover cures for whatever viruses, diseases, etc. Why not several? How many other Jonas Salks are out there now, or will be at sometime in the future? Yes, no one knows what a potential pregnancy will result in. No, I doubt very much that anyone's personal "god" knows how anyone would turn out to be, since existence of said "god" first needs to be proven. And yes, choice should be very well thought out first, after considering the 3 choices a female has to make, either on her own, or with her parents, boyfriend, husband, but first and foremost it's her choice to make, no one else's.
Matthew
Thank you. Yes, I was talking along those lines.
Matt Pesti
How am I blinded by my own self-preservation? I'm thinking of the whole world itself, not just me. Do you wish to continually overpopulate the world at an exponentially high rate, and if so, then why? What's the purpose? That would surely destroy us in the long run, but it'd be so far from now that all of us currently living won't be alive then to see that. Do you want future generations to suffer for our arrogance? That's one point that no one now thinks about, the far future, long after all of us present now are gone.
Sure, criminal activity is lowered due to greater law enforcement but why do you doubt that a reduction in population has also contributed to that fact? Don't you think that less people means less chance of there being criminals to commit crimes? There will always be criminals, and any way to lessen their numbers actually means more good people could live.
Why does a report have any less validity just cuz it's unpublished? By what criteria do you base that?
You're totally wrong about my logic. Slavery never should've existed in this country, nor do I think, or ever would, what you accuse me of regarding it.
By resources I meant that the earth has only so much oil, water, trees, and so on and that if we aren't careful it'll be either so greatly reduced that people will fight and kill over for what's left, or that there won't be any of it left. I'm sure we've got plenty of time before we see this but it's still a scary thought of running out of these resources and then seeing how people will react when they've got no trees to build shelter with or food to eat or gas for their cars, or clean water for drinking or bathing. Yeah, ok, so it may be an exaggeration again but we've got to think about these kinds of things and not turn a blind eye to them just cuz they won't happen till long after we're all gone by then.
It's so easy, too easy, in fact, to tell kids not to have sex and then they won't get pregnant. No. That's also too simplistic and unrealistic. You've got to teach kids all about sex from practically birth, taking to care to keep your explanations about it simple to the youngest kids. By telling kids of all ages, espec the younger ones, about sex, you're really helping keep them informed about all the dangers and yes, pleasures, of it so that they can make well-informed choices when/if they do one day choose to engage in sexual activity then they'll know what they're getting themselves into and may choose not to have sex till they're adults or married instead. Can't you see that, or don't you choose to?
Do you really know who dies the most in botched abortions? Those who live in states with the toughest abortion laws, forcing the women or girls have to cross statelines in order to end their pregnancies, which if memory serves, is illegal to do in some states. Also, there are other places where it's still illegal and those women have to risk imprisonment by going to those countries where abortion is legal.
Any child could potentially grow up to become a criminal, not just unwanted ones. Case in point: the Menendez brothers. They came from wealth and look what they did. Ted Bundy came from a pretty nice background and look what he did. Your logic there is so unbelievably flawed.
No, I don't think abortion should be legal just cuz teens (and preteens, I said before) would be made fun of. Where do you get these things from? I just meant that there are some underage girls who would be ridiculed by other kids for being pregnant. You know how mean kids can be.
I'm not blinded by my contempt for religion. I just see more clearly cuz of it. You're obviously religious to whatever extent and are blinded by that. Do you feel yours is the only valid belief and that all other differing ones aren't? That's arrogance on your part. No, I'm not being arrogant by thinking I'm better than anyone else, cuz I'm not and I don't.
I'll never end my very valid pro-death argument while there are those like you who choose to blindly follow mythological fantasies and want to impose their wrongful thinking on those like me who are more openminded than you could ever know, or want to know. You should end your silly pro-death argument. Mine is pro-life but again you choose not to realize that fact, but that's ok. Ignorance is bliss so you must be on cloud nine.
Mother Teresa was a great woman, no doubt, but even she was misguided and blinded in many things, like abortion, due to her religious beliefs.
One last thing: Please learn to spell better or at least use the spellchecker, ok?
Andrew
I'm very happy that you're one of the many christians that don't condone murdering abortion doctors or workers. I know the majority of you don't; it's just the few vocal ones that make it appear that all of you are.
However, I disagree that people should be married only in order to have sex. Sex is a private, personal thing between any two or more people, and nobody else's business. Why should only two small, expensive, round pieces of metal and a scrap of paper legalize sex between partners? That's so wrong. We all have a sex drive and it's up to us to choose what to do with it. When good, it's very good but when wrong, well, then there's certainly a price to pay, isn't there? But sex wasn't given to us by some unseen, unproven god, I have to disagree there with you, but you choose to believe as you wish and that's fine with me. I won't knock you for it, I'll just disagree. BTW, what biblical instructions? Why do you believe that just cuz a girl's pregnant, it's cuz it's her fault for having sex? You're assuming that she intentionally had sex without knowing if she did or not. She could've been raped or incested but was too embarassed or afraid to admit that. Too often people (and mostly men, it seems) are too quick to blame the female for her pregnancy, with no regards towards the potential father-to-be, or the true circumstances under which she got pregnant.
If jesus did come back, who would know? People might look at him and say, "Yeah, right," since so many people aren't of quite right in the head and would think anyone calling themself jesus is just nuts. Also, if he did exist before, too, he most likely would've been black or much darker skinned that a Caucasian person would be, considering where in the world he lived. To think he was white shows white arrogance, and/or ignorance. Of course, if one's brought up that way, it's easy to just go with the flow of believing that.
Yes, I'll go along with being a "secular fanatic."
Terminating "fetal tissue" is preventing a potential human existance, not an actual one, since it's not to that point yet. Nor do I know exactly when that point is but certainly not as fetal tissue.
Did you personally feel condescended to, and insulted by my last post? If so, then you, and anyone else feeling likewise, only chose to be. I didn't make you feel that way. It wasn't my intention but just me voicing my opinion. I do admit that maybe I can go overboard sometimes, so I hope that accounts for something.
And as for being wordy, well, just look at how long this one is. I'll try to keep them shorter from now on. I just wanted to be sure to reply to some of the major points brought up.
MikeC
Actually, Mike, I do wish we had no need for abortion but for obvious reasons I won't pray for it never to be ever again.
Like I told Andrew, I don't believe we should be married only in order to have or enjoy sex, and yes, contraception should definitely be used. But no matter how careful people are to use it, if pregnancy results then the female can choose one of 3 options and it should be her choice only! She can consult the potential father, of course, but he has no say in the end what she can or should do with her body.
Like you, I've got no sympathy for a female who sleeps around a lot and gets pregnant as a result. She really has no one to blame but herself but she should still consider her actions leading up to it and do what she feels best for herself.
If the lord wanted a world without abortion wouldn't we all be so sex-positive and teach our young everything about sex from day one, in order to not have many or any abortions or the need for them?
J Goettsche
Very true!
M. Jenkins
Very true, part deux!
The problem is that some people think that talking about things like sex, drugs, and rock and roll will only encourage kids to go out and do it now that they know about it. (I call this the "advertising argument" since it works on the same principle: The more you see it, the more likely you are to buy it.) The problem is, the results are almost the exact opposite. But nothing really exists to inform people of this fact.
Personally, I think that mandatory parenting classes should be given to anyone that is or is considering having a baby. (And yes, I know this is pretty much impossible, but still a nice idea.) My mother is a social worker (along with journalist, PR person, etc…) and she has so many horror stories to tell… ugh. Maybe if people learned to raise their kids right, all the various problems, not just an overabundance of abortions and teen pregnancies, would be reduced. (I'm not so optimistic as to think that we can stamp them out totally.) I know the politicians don't want to admit it, but some problems will take a while to solve. At least we could try to make things better for the next generation (or, at the rate things are going now, the generation after that one.)
According to biblical belief, God did indeed ordain sex. And it is different from mating. Animals mate just to pass on their genes and further the population of their species. They don't enjoy the romantic love that humans can. Of course, sex is indeed a very intimate and private thing. That's why it should only be shared with the one person with which you're spending the rest of your life. If you engage in premarital sex, are you really doing it because you love that person, or because you want to have sex? To go through the romantic processes only because you want someone's body is very insulting. What if you truly love someone? In that case you should be able to wait to protect that person in case you find that you aren't going to get married. Once you have gotten married, to sleep with another person is an act of great betrayal. I'm sure that you're not going to agree with most of this, but people have found throughout the ages that when sex is used outside the parameters found in the Bible, people invariably get hurt.
Marriage used to be more than two expensive pieces of metal and a scrap of paper. It was one of the most solemn vows a human ever could make. Now it seems that, instead of "Until death do us part," people are saying "Until we get tired of each other do us part." Marriage should be a bond stronger than lust.
Also, the sole purpose of marriage isn't sex. Sex is a part of marriage, not the other way around. I have read in a Christian devotional book where the writer says that, if he were forced to choose between never having sexual intercourse with his wife and never having the loving interactions he has every day with her, he would keep the interaction. Sex is a way of enjoying love with your spouse, not an end unto itself.
Don't worry-- when Jesus comes back, you'll know it. (Read the book of Revelation if you want to find out how.) Yeah, I know you don't believe that he ever will, but if you're going to argue with me about my own beliefs, I get to use my own terms.
When did I say I thought Jesus was a white with brown hair and blue eyes? Well, he sure would have stood out in the Jerusalem marketplace. Of course he was a Jew.
I was just using a girl who turns up pregnant as an example. I could have said a guy who has been sleeping around. Sorry, I didn't mean to seem sexist or anything.
Well, as for our abortion debate, it seems that we still won't agree on any terms, so, unless one of us can come up with some terms we will agree on, argument would be largely pointless.
"Why does a report have any less validity just cuz it's unpublished? By what criteria do you base that?"
It is only when a scientific report is submitted for publication that it is reviewed and critiqued by the scientific community at large, who decide whether the science done is good and valid. If I write a paper that said the moon is made of green cheese, is it valid? No.
Your overpopulation arguments have been used by many people for hundreds of years, and the dire predictions still haven't come true.
Let me state my beliefs simply. Abortion is murder. Murder in a very few situations (like self defense) is not wrong. Abortion in a very few situations (like when the mother's life is at risk) is not wrong. Adoption is the best alternative in cases of rape, incest, or other forms of unwanted pregnancy.
Rodnberry: I understand that not everyone thinks that pre-marital sex is wrong. However, I believe if you are going to do that, please use protection so we do not have to worry about abortion in the first place. I think that you are stating this too. I also believe that we should talk to our kids about sex and what the Lord wants, so we don't have to worry about it also.
Frankly, I doubt that Jesus was a Caucasian, since he was born in the Middle East. I'm not Caucasian anyway. I realize you were not talking to me, but I believe that Jesus is commonly painted as white is because the original artist said he received divine guidance. Also, I believe he is featured as completely white and glowing to show his "holy" nature clearly. This is rather moot, as it doesn't matter what Jesus looks like, rather his message of salvation.
Sex is a beautiful thing. It's a private thing, as well. I believe it's even more beautiful, though, when used between two married people, rather than used all over or anywhere. A lot of people claim that Christians are anti-sex: This is a silly statement--how do you explain children?
Regarding, people becoming killers, I believe your statement about Harris and Klebold is ironic--as they both came from upper-class, well-adjusted families, like Ted Bundy and the Menendez brothers.
As For my spelling FOUR WORDS-
"BITE ME! IT'S FUN" :-) Crow T. Robot
As for your energy argument
Early humanity hunted for food, when they took up farming the pouplation increased. With every advancement in Agriculture and technology, the pouplulation increased. Cure for a plauge found, pouplulation increase. Industrial revoultion, pouplutation increase. Fertilizers, pouplulation increase. The poupulation was decreased by war, diseaese and famine. In the 20th century, we used high yeilding grains, Fertilizers, high rise cities, Highly effective Fossil Fuels and Atomic Fission, and have retarded war, lowered famine, and found the prevention and cure of major plauges. Thus the pouplulation is increasing. The world of tommarow will have Fusion and solar power, highest yeilding crops that can grow in the desert, better alloys and contruction martieals , terraforming and Space travel. Thus they should handell a extremly large pouplulation.
Population and Crime
So we should get rid of social ills by killing them. Criminals shouldn't get to live. Are You familer with a concept called "Natural rights of man".
I belive I read someones calculations the for every saved victem of a murder, 1,091 infants had to die. Such a deal. Also if we killed all poor people poverty would be non existant, If we killed all Drug addicts Drug addiction would be gone, If we kill all Jews, Homosexuals and other undisireables, they will no longer polute the master race. I think you get the point.
You seemed to think
"Any child could potentially grow up to become a criminal, not just unwanted ones. Case in point: the Menendez brothers. They came from wealth and look what they did. Ted Bundy came from a pretty nice background and look what he did. Your logic there is so unbelievably flawed."
My statement was"Also any wanted children could become blood thristy killers, since evil comes from the human heart. Humans will do evil until Doomsday. "
Please explain why this is flawed? Yours is more baffaling.
So your calling me arrogrant after calling my Faith"Supersition, Ignorant and blinding". If I didn't belive my faith was the best way, WHY WOULD I BELIVE IN IT.
Finally, YOU CAN'T PROVE OR DISPROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD, only science demands proof, metaphyics does not and religion does not. They must be acepted by Faith. If you still want proof here's. If he doesn't exist why have athiests not destoryed faith.
M. Jenkins-
It's cute, but not too cute is it, and whitch is my best side.
note signed by God, the President of the United States, and Bill Gates.
If Bill Gates signed it then how long until it crashed?
Seriously though if people are so worried about wether or not to have an abortion of they end up in a situation where they may have to decide, then simply avoid that situation by not having sex, simple as that. If someone has unprotected sex and gets pregnant then they must be responsible for their actions.
Consensual sex can be avoided; all it takes is self-control and/or a cold shower. What happens when the sex is not consensual?
Here's a question I'm sure has already been asked but I don't have enough time to read all the postings, why are some the most adament so-called Pro-Lifers so supportive of the death penalty, and advocate killing abortion doctors?
I think in their minds, the abortion doctors deserve to die, and people who do stuff bad enough to get the death penalty deserve it. (Just for the record, I'm for the death penalty.)
"...why are some the most adament so-called Pro-Lifers so supportive of the death penalty,and advocate killing abortion doctors?"
On the first point, there's a big difference between killing the guilty and killing the innocent.
On the second, the only people who advocate murder are kooks looking for any cause in which to do evil. They don't really believe in the agenda they're spouting.
I don't advocate killing abortion doctors. Why? Some people say they are sinners. Well, we all are sinners. Some people say they are murderers. Well, we all are murderers, as we all killed Jesus. The point is "When you point a finger at someone, you've got three fingers pointed back at you, and a thumb up to God."
Other people say they are "doing God's work by sending sinners to hell". That is bunk, as according to the Bible, God DOESN'T want people in Hell--if you wanted to do his work, how about trying to convert them, not kill them?
It's John Brown syndrome. Take away the legal means for someone to protest, and treat them as the bad guy and they will take their part and throw away civil disobediance, and just get violent.
What do you mean, taking away the legal means to protest? I see lots of people writing letters and expressing their distate with words instead of homicide. And I think that, on the whole, pro-lifers have gotten a bad rap. Yes, a few of them do kill abortion doctors. But saying that all of them are nuts is like saying that everyone who plays Doom will go on a shooting rampage at their school.
BTW, what did you think of those types of sites that list *home* addresses and names of abortion providers? Right after one doctor on that list was murdered, his name was crossed out.
Creating a web site like that ("OK, here is John Smith, MD, this is where he works, where he lives, the names of his kids...") is simply vile, dishonorable... but tragically enough, effective. If I was an abortion provider and my family kept getting harassed and threatened for what I do , for how long could I continue providing my services? There are no merits to accomplishing the goal of stopping abortions if fear of death is the instrument.
Sigh... why can't the nutty ones (and yes, these ARE the minority in the Pro-Life movement) just abstain from having abortions if an unwanted pregnancy comes their way and leave it like that? Or, say, work at changing the conditions that make abortion seem like the right solution to an unwanted pregnancy?
P.S. Is using the "morning-after" pill (emergency contraception) the same as having an abortion? Personally, I don't.
That should have been, "Personally, I don't think so."
Why is it that most of the people who are antichoice are men? Has anyone ever noticed this?
(MikeC, please don't delete this next item.)
George Carlin has a joke: "Why is it that the people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't want to f--k in the first place?" I love his way with words. He's an artist with them.
If everyone who's ever been against abortion were aborted in the first place then there wouldn't be any opposition to abortion, wouldn't there?
Psst... Rodnberry, there is this group called Feminists for life
In their own words:
Quote:We oppose all forms of violence, including abortion, euthanasia and capital punishment, as they are inconsistent with the core feminist principles of justice, non-violence and non-discrimination. Our efforts focus on education, outreach and advocacy, as well as facilitating practical resources and support for women in need.
Actually More Men are Pro-choice than are women. The Reason, Men have no reproductive rights. So they have a choice between Child Surrport (whitch they are forced to pay by courts) or Abortion which frees men from all responability.
"If everyone who's ever been against abortion were aborted in
the first place then there wouldn't be any opposition to
abortion, wouldn't there?"
Ah But protesters can only protest at area's that mean nonthing and Pro-life organization are being broken under RACKATERRING laws
Morning After Pill. If it Kills spearm or retards fertilization. That's Okay. If it kills the Zygote, that would be wrong since the Zygote is a Seperate Human while the Spearm are just "Body Fuild".
Your're bleeping insane!
You do realize the Social Security Crisis is caused by a lowering of workers to Elderly a shortage that can be attributed to Abortion.
Your're Quoting George Carlin. You do realize the 80's are over do you :-)
Here's an explanation of how the morning-after pill works, given by Jason Estes on Friday, December 11, 1998 - 01:03 am: (taken from the Kitchen Sink's 1998 archives!)
Quote:[...]Matthew Patterson had mentioned the 'morning-after' pill: this is a real form of _post_ intercourse contraception. A specific type of birth control pill (there are many types, with different hormone formulations) is taken at a higher-than-normal dose for a day or two within 72 hours of intercourse. The big estrogen peak that you get makes the uterus unreceptive to an egg. It does not prevent fertilization. If there was an egg around, fertilized or not, it passes through the uterus and is lost. Whether or not this constitutes 'abortion' is a moral decision that I feel is best left to individuals.[...]
30 minutes of catching up...yeesh.
Rodnberry: Thank you, thank you...
Matt Pesti: I shall decline to answer your question.
Just a general question: Why is it wrong for people to make their own decisions? Please don't go off on the abortion is murder route; I know the POVs about that. But it seems like if people want to make a choice of their own, everyone and their dead ancestors criticise them for it, but don't offer solutions that could be accepted by the one being criticised.
An alternative to abortion: Have the kid and hand it over to the state. Abort a nonviable zygote, or have a kid born who might get lucky and wind up in a good home. What's another alternative to abortion? We all know about tossing the kid to the state (not much different from an abortion, IMO), and the prevention measures during sex. What else?
Another thing kinda sorta along the same topic: What are the views on surrogate mothers? Who gets the rights?
Sorry about that Insanity remark. It took me two hours to figure out it was a joke. My humor index is a little off due to it being late August. For all of you not headed for the retirement home I think you know what I'm talking about.
My apologyies.
Matt, I'll grant you that about the reason why possibly more men are prochoice than women (though I'm really not sure about that) but like I said, there are many more than women that are antichoice.
The Carlin quote was from his 1990's HBO specials, not the 1980's. He last did that joke to open his special two years ago. He's been doing comedy for 40 years now and just keeps getting better, cuz he tells it like it is. Well, ok, with some exaggeration, but that's the nature of comedy. Take the ridiculous and embellish on it.
Antichoice protesters are, and should be, justifiably dealt with by Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Acts (RICO) laws, cuz they get what they deserve, since they make their own choices of how to act towards others, right? If they protested quietly then I'd have no problem with it, and certainly many do protest quietly. It's just the more vocal ones that upset those of us on the right side of the abortion issue. Not that I could convince anyone else (or expect to) that the view I share with most others is the right one but that's ok. Here's a page I found while looking up RICO Laws. It deals with all aspects of the abortion issue, including using RICO laws to fight antiabortion protesters.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm
One last thing: Apology accepted.
M. Jenkins: You're welcome but for what exactly? What I said about most antichoice people being men?
BTW, I hope the above link helps many antichoice people to rethink their views. I don't expect many or any to change theirs at all, though that would be nice, but at least please open your minds a bit, ok?
I strongly recommend reading the When does LIFE become HUMAN LIFE? section.
OK, I visited the page. How was it supposed to help me rethink my views? All I saw was it stating both side of the issue pretty fairly. I laughed at how the liberal NOWers bypassed the first amendment to keep abortion protestors away, though I've no doubt they support pornography on the internet by trumpeting the same amendment. Wasn't it the NOW that opposed a 24 hour waiting period before a woman can have an abortion, in which time she is required to fully inform herself about what she's going to do? I've always thought of the NOW as abortion loving extremists that give pro-choicers a bad name.
Waitaminute: Antichoice PROTESTORS should be arrested? Protesting, if done in a legal, safe manner, is (or should be) legal in the United States, which prides itself as a "free country" with "free speech".
MikeC, I've no problem with antichoice protesters doing so quietly but they don't have the right to block entrance to clinics, or shout insults and their religious views at those trying to get into clinics. Yes, protesting is a First Amendment right but they do it from a religious standpoint, and I'll tell you that one's First Amendment right to freedom of religion ends when it interferes with another's freedom from religion. Unfortunately, those who choose to be extremely radical in their religion very conveniently forget about that right, since they think they're justifiable in forcing their BS on others that don't want it.
Regarding protesters, my experience is that I learn more from people who tell me their experience than from people who tell me what to do. That is why I try never to say, "You should do ..." Instead I try to say, "This is what I did, and here's what happened..." I think if I were trying to decide about an abortion, I would listen more to someone who had faced the decision than to someone who never had a pregnancy.
Does anyone out there have some real experience to share on this topic? The closest I come to that is that I dated a woman 16 years ago who had had an abortion. I know she carried around a great deal of guilt about that. I think the fact that it didn't change the way I felt about her helped her to get past some of the shame, but it is still something that will be with her forever. I believe that the circumstances around her abortion made it the right choice for her. Even so, it weighed heavily on her heart.
I also know a woman who I met in AA who had several abortions before she got sober. In her case, she basically used abortion as her method of birth control. Clearly, her decisions were impaired by her disease, but she had a lot of work to do to learn how to forgive herself for her past actions.
Who else has experience to share?
Since we're on this subject
http://www.nationalreview.com/25mar96/feature.html
Well, I have never been pregnant.(This is off-topic, but if you know somebody who is trying to conceive, PLEASE don't tell them that trying is half the fun. While sex is enjoyable, unsuccessful attempts to conceive can be very stressful.) And I don't know of anybody who has had an abortion.
I don't know if this is the safest place to post about personal experiences with abortion. Could somebody do so without getting ripped to shreds? For the sake of learning more, if somebody does, let's be nice. What do you say?
Rodnberry: I don't remember anymore...trying to scroll through 125k of posts on a pitiful 14.4 isn't fun.
J.G. - I think we should, and we can. If we're willing to listen.
I think I said this before, but a woman I know had an abortion (her boyfriend's baby, in fact), and despite the fact that she and the father didn't plan it, talked it over and decided to go that route, and did it, she was upset afterwards. She called me the same day and told me what she did and how she wished she could reverse it. And that she'd never do it again. And because they want to avoid it, they're very careful about pregnancy now.
Moderater (MikeC?) - Can we get a new board going? A wait as long as I have is giving me headaches! ;)
I think it is very important to talk about the emotional repercussions of having an abortion. Again, I believe that the decision should be left to the individual, not the state. However, if one chooses abortion, the limited experience I have tells me that the aftermath can be devastating to the survivors. This is one area that I think anyone can be helpful, by being compassionate to the woman who has had an abortion. Once the procedure is done, what good is it to heap shame on the woman? Even if I disagree with the choice she has made, I can still be kind to her. She will be going through enough emotional pain without me adding to it.