Why do so many people equate Wicca with Satanism? And why do those same people refuse to be educated on the difference? I'd love to hear opinions.
Some do so because they've never heard differently. Others (like me) do so because they believe every power not from God is from Satan.
They do so because they hear that Wiccans basically are "witches". They don't think of New Age Wiccan Witches, but sinister Dark Ages devil-worshippers. Just a matter of word assocation.
Like when people hear "Christian", they think "old Bible-thumping jerk".
That is a joke, not an insult.
Just clarifying, as I AM a Christian.
Jennifer: You said, "any power not from God is from Satan." Hate to pee on your parade there, but nothing in this universe is cut-and-dry, black-and-white.
In your opinion =)
Well, I can think of at least one thing, but you'll just argue with me.
I believe Jennifer said "I believe", meaning she was stating an opinion, inasuch should come under Radetsky's Law of Opinions, meaning that every opinion should at least be considered openly.
Why Satan, Jennifer? And, in your opinion, does this make me a satanist?
Matthew - You can think of at least one thing about what? And who would argue with you?
Sorry about that. That post was in response to Brian Webber'. I tend to frget when there are posts in between the one I'm responding to. I meant to say that I can think of at least one thing that is black and wite, but he'd just argue.
Oh? What's the black and white thing? I'm quite curious now.
Well, it's rather obvious, but it exists. The black and white issue is: the colors black and white. Everyone will agree that this is a totally cut-and-dried, black-and-white example. (And the ones who don't usually die in zebra accidents.) This is why we compare other examples to it. It is the only one I can think of, but it exists nonetheless!
Hmmm, well it could the use of a PENTAGRAM, last time I checked that is a common satinist symbol. Actually Satan would make a great disscussion board. Remind me to remind the moderater.
But we all know Weird Al blew the lid off satanism in UHF.
Oh and the witchs, incantations, et alt, aren't good either.
Matt Pesti: A symbol doesn't make a religion. Satanists use inverted pentagrams. Wiccans don't. The top point represents the Spirit. The other four lower points correspond to the elements of nature: Fire, Earth, Water, Air. Simple enough. Besides, Wiccans don't believe in the Devil/Satan/etc.
And how do you figure witches and spells aren't good? Do you have personal experience with them? Or is that statement born of fear of the Wicked Witch of the West in Wizard of Oz? (I used to think that when I was a little girl, but now I know better.)
"Why Satan, Jennifer? And, in your opinion, does this make me a satanist?"
Why Satan? Because in my belief system: there are only two supernatural beings giving out power to others, God (to angels and humans) and Satan (to demons and humans). God gives His power through the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him, when they pray and He deems it proper that they have it. Any power not received in this way and by this kind of person is from the 'dark side' - and nothing the 'dark side' is sponsoring will lead to ultimate good.
Does this make you a Satanist? Satanists worship Satan; I don't think you do (knowingly), so according to my beliefs, you are a dupe. Strange - I'm so used to being called a dupe myself, I feel like I've joined the atheists! =)
Black and white is black and white for everybody except blind people and color-blind!
Can't color-blind people tell the difference between black and white? If they can't, I think they'd be just blind =)
I think that colorblind people mostly have problems with just that: colors. Black and white vision is an entirely separate thing. As for blind people, well, nothing ever works for everyone.
What's the difference between satanists and christians? Satanists admit to worshipping satan.
By that, I mean simply that hardcore religious fanatics are full of hatred, bigotry, intolerance, ignorance and so many other negative emotions and energies and that they try forcing their views and ways on others. Not every single person calling themselves christian, of course but quite a few.
The hardcore ones hate you if you're gay, atheist, prochoice, against school prayer and for whatever other things they want to hate you for. They yell obscenities at you at abortion clinics, right there in front of their kids. They tell you you're going to hell if you go thru with the operation. They'll kill you in some cases, or condone those who would, and justitfy it in the name of god. Actally, they'll justify the worst atrocities one human can do to another, and it's not just stuff that's happened in the past, either, cuz that still happens today.
They supposedly believe that to kill is wrong but that there are certain times when it's ok, like abortion workers, or whatever other reason they want to kill you for. Self-defense is really the only reason one person should kill another but that's for another board.
Hardcore fanatics are so full of negative energy. If they truly believed in a loving god then they'd be full of love for others, right? But no. If satan truly exists then he plants all these negative emotions in others to see what they'll produce, and how people will act on them. Then, if they do really bad things to others then they're just feeding satan with what he gave them to start with, only a whole lot more of it, and ol' satan, well, he's just such a really big, hungry glutton, ain't he? With me, so far? Now, you may laugh and scoff at this but hey, satan's a lyer, right? So he'll try to keep you from seeing the truth, so you'll think your thoughts are your own, when in fact they're just what he's planted inside of you so that you'll do his bidding without knowing you are. See, it's his way of getting back at god for throwing him out of heaven. Jeez, you'd think he'd let go of that old grudge by now, wouldn't you?
All of this is total hogwash, of course cuz satan doesn't exist. The only evil is that which exists within us all, and isn't personified by some redskinned, pointed-tailed, pitchfork-carrying, horned-forehead maniac living in perpetual fires and torturing souls for all eternity. Satan is just an excuse for some people to blame something else for their actions, instead of taking responsibility like they should. Saying "satan made me do it" just doesn't wash anymore in these enlightened times.
First of all, Satan is not redskinned, pointed-tailed, pitchfork-carrying, horned-forehead, and he does not torture souls for all eternity. That is incredibly unbiblical. Satan is a temptor.
For instance, remember the story about Jesus being tempted by Satan? Satan did not mind-control Jesus, he tempted him. In today's world, Satan probably tempts people through other forms, although you have complete control over other actions.
If we're playing stereotypes, I'd like to point out the majority of atheists I seem to meet seem to enjoy putting Christians down, poking fun at their beliefs, and responding with "Sorry but your deluded fantasies are wrong." Doesn't mean they all are, it's just that a lot of them seem to be.
"Hardcore" Christians, in my opinion, are those that work really hard at church at being a pastor, a daycare operator, etc., and still write scripts for Christmas pageants. Those people you described are not hardcore Christians. They are ••••••. The Bible does not condone any of those actions, and I for one, do not do them.
According to the Bible and most theories, Satan was an angel who rebelled against God with a squadron of other angels. These angels were cast out of Heaven--and cannot come back. Satan either before or after tempted Adam and Eve, and set off the Fall. God told Satan that sooner or later, the Son of Man (Jesus) would kill Satan. Satan resolved to get him first, first by temptation, later by death. And he's still trying to ruin any plans for "salvation". But mankind has control over their actions.
Isn't "The Cage" completely black and white:-)
Actually I was thinking of the Witch King of Morgul, Lord of the Nazgul. After all no man can slay him ;-) But the Wicked witch of the east, you just have to toss water on her.
Witches, spells, etc have always been associated with the Devil. That is what I meant.
No, no no... You drop a house on the WW of the East. You throw water on the WW of the WEST.
Witches, spells, etc have always been associated with the Devil. That is what I meant.
I suspect this association came about because early missionaries wanted to bring down local wiccan/goddess religions, and prevent the (not-so) faithful converts from reverting.
If we're going to start throwing around stereotypes, I could give you megabytes about bigoted, angry, spiteful, hate filled atheists, with Rodnberry's post as exhibit A. But that's not what Christians do!!
Calm down, calm down! Believers and non-believers alike.
Many people are hateful, spiteful, and cruel.
All Christians are people.
Thus some Christians can be hateful, spiteful, and cruel.
(Some Christians will accuse other Jesus-worshippers of not being true Christians because they are hateful, spiteful, and cruel.)
Both religion and cynicism can be used to justify anything. You can talk to a kind, merciful Christian who loves every one of God's creatuers, and he or she will tell the hateful, spiteful, cruel Christian where to get off. You can talk to a moral, good atheist who gives everybody the benefit of the doubt and he or she will tell the hateful, spiteful, cruel atheist where to get off. No kind of belief or disbelief can make you "good" in the end.
Regarding the witchcraft and spells issue, I think the explanation could be even simpler. Early missionaries who encountered such practices saw supernatual occurances which no one claimed came from "Jesus," or even a monotheistic Trinity like theirs except in name; given their assumption that the absence of Jesus equals the presence of the devil, they decried local practices as devil-worship.
Oh sure, Christians can be evil. Everyone can and is evil at some point in their life. I just wasn't fond of the way Rodnberry hinted that Christians were ALWAYS evil, and nothing but.
Exactly. I get a little unhappy when I'm told that most of my family, my friends, my fellow church members, and my Christian heroes are "...full of hatred, bigotry, intolerance, ignorance and so many other negative emotions and energies and that they try forcing their views and ways on others," and that they will "...hate you if you're gay, atheist, prochoice, against school prayer and for whatever other things they want to hate you for... kill you in some cases, or condone those who would, and justitfy it in the name of god....justify the worst atrocities one human can do to another..."
"No, no no... You drop a house on the WW of the East. You
throw water on the WW of the WEST."
So.....
WW of the East- Drop a house
WW of the West- Water
Koume-Fire
Kotake-Ice
Witch-King- A Hobbit and a Woman of the Mark.
The Witch in the Haunted castle- One of Fred's and Velma's tricks.
Gingerbread house Witch- Shove her in a furnance.
Blair witch- DON'T GO INTO THE WOODS
Witch from Sleeping beauty- Find a sword of truth
That is all.
Hey, Matt, I was just nitpicking you! :-)
M. Jenkins, are you a Wiccan? If so, inform us! What do you believe?
Why? So you can inform her that she's a Satanist?
*LOL* Protector has a point there, Jennifer...but I'll answer anyway. I call myself a nonpracticing Wiccan (well, actually polytheistic), only because I don't do the spells and rituals. Part of it is out of respect for my brother, whom I live with, part is because I'm still studying the religion to make sure this is what I believe. And no, I sure as heck don't worship any Devil/Satan, because I don't believe in one.
And yes, I did try my hand at several religions that believe in God. It didn't suit me however, for a lot of personal reasons. And I tried my hand at Shintoism and Buddhism too, since that's part of my family's religion as well. It still didn't quite work out. A couple of people I met online mentioned Wicca, and one suggested that might be for me. I took his unspoken challenge and began to study, and found out that this is the closest one yet.
The reason I asked is because a woman I used to work with was appalled when I mentioned I was studying the religion to see if it was for me, because she equated it with Satanism. I handed her some texts on it, and she changed her views after reading it, and even encouraged it. So did my stepfather. Well, not the encouraging, but the view changing. That's why I'm curious as heck.
Geez, you guys are suspicious. I seriously am just curious about Wiccans! There aren't many up in my neck of the woods. In fact, the place I first heard about them was on-line. Didn't I already say I didn't think she was a Satanist, BTW? =)
Don't feel bad, Jennifer. I hadn't heard of Wicca until I got online too. Then I found out there were quite a few, and got interested in it myself.
And I'm not a satanist! :(
No one here is saying you are!
Are there any sites you've found that you could share with us?
2+2=4
so does 6-2
and 2*2, and 8/2, and 64/16, and 3*1 1/3, and 10-6, and 1.6*2.5. So what's you're point?
That should be "your point." Careless typo. Fingers play tricks on me sometimes.
Ummm...Matt Pesti...I'm sure we're all glad that you can do basic addition and subtraction. Thank you so much for showing off your extraordinary math skills.
And while I'm thinking of it, you mentioned the Wicked Witch of the East and West from Oz. You forgot the Good Witch of the North, Glenda (gave Dot her ruby slippers). And you said that Sleeping Beauty's adversary was a witch. She was, in fact, a fairy. Not invited because the king and queen were short one gold plate. But if you say she was an evil witch, then Beauty's 3 guardians had to be the good witches. Right?
Jennifer - You sure as heck implied it in your 1st and 3rd posts here! I had some sites, but I had to redo my bookmarks and lost 'em all and never felt the urge to go find them again. I'll go dig 'em up, provided they're still around, and post 'em here. If you want a book or something, I hear Scott Cunningham is good (never read him, though). I also recommend Silver RavenWolf's "To Ride A Silver Broomstick: New Generation Witchcraft."
Matthew - You forgot about 4*1 and 4/1 and 16/4 and 20/5 and 8-4...;)
I'm off to go find those sites...
Some starters, Jennifer and others:
Wicca: What It Is and Is Not
Gweneviere's Grove
Lady Heather's Solitary Grove of the Goddess
Sun Dragon
Open Sesame
Amberwood
Janus Gate
RavensWing's Wiccan Page
Wiccan's World of Witchcraft
The Goddess's Hideout
Yahoo! is good for finding sites...try any search engine...
Why does the "Goth Talk" Skit on SNL come to mind?
Because it's pretty funny. (In fact, I can do a flawless imitation of Azrael Abyss, the Prince of Sorrow. Or Sam. Whichever.)
Does anyone else think "Practical Magic" was a occult film:-)
I actually avoid movies like "The Craft" and "Practical Magic" and "Blair Witch" because, from the response I get from those who HAVE seen those types, witchcraft gets a negative portrayal. I have no desire to see that. I find it's useless, it's stereotypical of those who don't want to understand, and it's just plain ridiculous.
It was a joke.
It's like calling "Small Soldiers" a war film. Or "Men in Tights" the most accurate Robin Hood film ever. Hyperbole
You have a grasp of basic math and hyperbole. I'm happy for you. I, however, did not find your joke very funny, for reasons I've already stated and will not restate. I'm glad you got a few laughs, though.
"Men in Tights" wasn't an accurate Robin Hood film????? You mean that Rabbi Tuckman didn't really go around Sherwood Forest giving out free Bris'es? Darn [grin]!
Sorry 'bout that last off-topic post, things were getting a bit heavy and [somewhat] personal... I thought lightening things up a touch would help.
OK, I'm starting to understand. I am a little confused about one thing. The sites mention a God and Goddess, but then talk about one Creator. Are the God and Goddess the most important of the Creator's aspects?
Let me clarify my position again. I *do not* believe you are a Satanist, especially as you don't believe in a Satan. I believe you are a non-practicing Wiccan. That doesn't mean I believe you're not worshipping Satan, I just think you're doing it indirectly. Is that clearer? And please understand that I don't think you're evil, malicious, or that you should be burned at the stake!
In other words, anyone who doesn't worship as you do is indirectly worshipping Satan (consciously or not)?
Wait, I get it. I was thinking of Wiccan as a semi-organized religion, with set beliefs. Now I'm realising that there are very few views which every Wiccan firmly holds. M. Jenkins, what are your views? How did you come to them? It looks like it'd be nearly impossible to sort through them all!
ScottN: yes, I believe anyone who doesn't worship as the Bible lays out (whether OT or NT) is working for the enemy - not necessarily worshipping him, though.
That would probably be very interesting news to the half of the world's population that lives in Asia and follows non Judeo-Christian religions...
ScottN, why just Asia? I would go on the record as saying that at least one third to half of the American population is not Christian. They may claim to be, but...
Oh yes, light-placed humor is never out of place. O.K. Maybe if in "Schindler's List", Oskar Schindler suddenly started to say: "Did you ever notice those Nazis are killing people? I don't get that." That would be out of place. Humour isn't.
That's the problem I see from a Christian perspective; most people don't know whose ends they're serving with the absolute best of intentions. It's hard to see a peaceful, kind, loving, helpful Hindu as working for Satan, however indirectly.
Why do you play a bipolar zero-sum game? i.e. "If you ain't wit' me, you're agin' me." The world is not bipolar (i.e. there are people out there who don't give a d*mn about EITHER Jesus or Satan), and it's probably not zero-sum either (i.e. Jesus and Satan aren't the only games in town).
Whoops! I screwed up my second example - that was another bipolarism example. The world is probably not zero-sum either (i.e. Jesus can gain points without Satan losing some).
Well, how? It seems to me that if someone makes choices that lead to good instead of evil, this would be exactly what Jesus wants, and exactly what Satan hates. Wouldn't one gain and the other lose?
Here's my theory
1. Religion is the Search for truth. Definition
2. There is only one truth. Proof. 1+1 always=2. Every Scientific Law has been proven by multiple experaments all with the same conclusion. Also if there is One God that would mean one Truth and one Provindence.
3. Objective truth is universal. That's why religions have developed similer concepts, beliefs and rituals. Example Good Works exists in all religions. As are candels, sacerfice, and other stuff. This also explains why most religions evoleved in thought from magic and mythology, to theology and scripture.
4. Revealed Truth is what man cannot find without the help of it. The existance of God is a revealed truth. Jesus is the Ultimate revealed truth. That is why a Christ-like figure exists in almost every religion. Christ's teachings adressed what Budda and Confucius addressed centuries before couldn't get to.
Now how does this apply to Topic. Well since all religions should have similer traits, reasons and concepts. In other words they are trying reach God. But ther're Salvation Equasion is missing the "x" factor. However Wiccanism (From this disscusion and others) seems to be concerned with magic, or temporal power, a female deity and moral relevenism. This is why Wiccanism points as being Satanic.
My apologies for the length of this post.
Where is the Christ-like figure in Judaism?
The Messiah. Most of these figure match the second coming of Christ.
Jennifer - I'm glad I shouldn't be burned at the stake...it'd be pretty unpleasant. ;) And actually, it'd be best to NOT ask my views...I'm still sorting them out. Specific questions might be a better way to go. About the Creator aspect, I'll have to go see how those sites word things to be able to answer it. I'll get back to you on that...
Matt Pesti - Wiccanism? What religion is that? Surely you're not referring to mine, since the practicer is Wiccan, and the religion is Wicca.
Let me ask this: Every religion that has a goddess is pointed to as Satanic? So this means that the ancient Greeks and Romans and Norse and Egyptians all were Satanic? You can't forget about Hera, or Diana, or Freya, or Bast, ya know.
I also don't see what difference it makes for a religion to have magick in it or not. I could very well say that Christ rising from the dead was a magickal event. Or that the deal with Daniel and his friends was magickal. We just used a word other than faith.
So how else does my religion point to Satanism?
I'll now go tell my mother she's an alleged Satanist, since she's Shinto and they have goddesses.
I'm back! :)
Ok, Jennifer, I got an answer to your question that articulates it much better than I ever could. The Creator is the universal cosmic power that exists. The Triple Goddess and the God are representations of the female and male aspects of the Creator. (Amberwood is where I got the simple, straight to the point answer that I couldn't give.)
In case you're wondering, the Triple Goddess has three forms? phases? aspects? which gives her the 'Triple' part: Maiden, Mother, and Crone.
Did you ever notice how, no matter what the topic is, it always turns into a free-for-all? No one is discussing Evolution vs. Creation on that board anymore...
MikeC, the problem is that to have a discussion about a specific topic, there generally has to be some sort of agreement to the basic definitions to be used, and to what the standard of proof is. EvsC is currently debating what the standard of proof is, i.e. "I believe it so it must be true" and "Your belief doesn't make it true", and all those miscellaneous variants, not to mention petty debates about semantics (and I'm as guilty as the next person, there).
"Why do you play a bipolar zero-sum game?"
Well, I guess sometimes that's just how I see things. Satan is powerful and determined; if someone doesn't direct their actions according to God's will, Satan will step in. And yeah, Mike, I've noticed the second law of thermodynamics taking affect =)
But what happens if someone DOESN'T believe in Satan? Where does the zero-sum game lead to there?
Just because you don't belive in something doesn't mean it's not there. I don't believe in Windows, but it's still there (unless my letter to the Office of Universal Alterations is received favorably.)
Conversely, just because you DO believe in something doesn't mean it's there. My kids believe in the Tooth Fairy, but she's not there.
Wow… your kids are really gullible. I never believed in the Tooth Fairy, or Santa, or the Easter Bunny, or any of that stuff…
Matthew - But the Christian Satan is not nearly as tangible as Windows is. I personally believe he is also a Christian deity, on par with the Christian God, and that he was created as a way for people to project all their "evil" intentions onto someone, rather than taking the blame themselves. Wicca, on the other hand, has no Devil/Satan to blame for being evil or what have you. Wiccans take responsibility for their own actions, biding by the Threefold Rule. Wiccans don't say that Satan made them do anything; they say that they made themselves do something...of course, the original idea of Satan has changed over the years...
I personally am not a fan of the whole Satan theory either… I heard tha the Pope even said that he was basically just made up by the Church sometime in the Middle Ages and the only true evil is that which exists within us, which makes more sense to me. Except if that's true, the you have to wonder what was with the serpent in the garden… if there is no Satan, then who was influencing it, etc. etc. Satan has no power over me anyway (if he exists), so it really makes no difference either way.
Matthew - As I understand it, Satan was created in the Middle Ages as a way to combat the pagan god. There's a pretty neat explanation in Silver RavenWolf's book. As for the garden snake, maybe it's simply supposed to be symbolic of the temptation to disobey?
Jennifer - You say if someone doesn't direct their actions toward God's will, Satan will step in. So how do you explain the agnostics of society? You know, the people who ask for proof before they'll believe in ANY supreme being, good OR evil? Surely someone can not be part of a 'bi-polar zero-sum game' if they don't put their faith in either of the contestants (i.e. God and Satan) playing this game? You assume there's only people in the world who believe in a religion, any given religion. Your beliefs, as far as I can tell from your posts, do not account for people who are not religious and/or do not worship any deity. Would you mind explaining about it? I'm sure I am not the only one interested in hearing how you can link them to being satanists.
Satan was origanally God's high Archangel. His Sin was of Pride and he and his followers, about 1/3 of Heaven's angels. They becames Demons. Satan is the Prince of Lies. He lied to Eve about the Tree. Eve belived him over God, who always tells the Truth, and was cast from Eden. But he is under God's control and can do nonthing without his consent. The example of this was when he allowed him to take all Job had, to see if he would still remain faithful. (Read the book of Job some time, it's better written than Shakespeare and it deals with the most advanced theological topics ever.)
Humanity can resist his lies, as Jesus showed in the wilderness.
Satan doesn't want you to think he exists, it makes his job easyier. And he won't tell you he exists since he is a liar. And ultimately sin because no one is forceing you to sin.
The problem with denying Satan is the question "Who is this Satan fellow all through the New Testament?" Is it some strange chap who pops up at the end?
How do I explain agnostics? I don't understand what you're asking. Whether someone believes in Satan, doesn't believe in Satan, or isn't sure about Satan, I believe Satan will still use them if he can. Also, 'the devil made me do it' is a copout; Satan tempts us, and if we succumb it's *our* fault.
Matt Pesti - I thought Jesus wasn't human. He'd either be a deity, or a demi deity, IMO. That's like saying Hercules was human...he was a demigod.
MikeC - The New Testament? Believe it or not, I have one, but I can't stand it. It's too verbose and beats around the bush in saying things...so I have no idea who the strange chap is who pops in and out.
Jennifer - If Satan is supposed to be a temptor, and he rules in Arizona...I mean, Hell...then what's so bad about winding up there? People make it out to be a place where they'll wind up getting burned and tortured (think Hades) just 'cause they weren't good girls or boys. But if he's a temptor and not a torturer...what gives?
Actually, Hades wasn't just a bad place. I seem to recall from the little bit of mythological teaching I've had that really evil people went to Tartarus, the place of torture, so-so people went to Acheron, which wasn't too great either way, and really great people went to the Elysian Fields, which were a paradise. Also five rivers figure into the thing somehow. Don't ask me, I haven't done any of this since sixth grade.
Ooops...I meant Tartarus...Hades encompassed the entire underworld. But my query stands.
Jennifer - But if someone doesn't believe in Satan to begin with, how can Satan use that person to his do his will for him? I know you could argue that just because I don't believe there is a Satan, that doesn't mean he doesn't exist, and my counterargument to that is just because you think there is, doesn't make it so. Just because The Bible which says the devil exists, it doesn't make it fact. You're saying that everyone in society either follows God or Satan, which just isn't true. As I stated before, I still see no allowance in your views for the people who follow no type of God. Since there are agnostics and athiests in society, neither of whom believe in any deities, how can Satan lead them into temptation, as they don't believe he exists in the first place?
I. Ecordiay, that's exactly what I've been trying to tell Jennifer several times now, and any others who cared. I don't believe in satan, just the evil that's within us all. We make our own decisions on what to do for, or to, ourselves, or others. Any temptation is our own, not subtlely placed into our minds by some nonexistent evil entity that wants us to do its bidding. I doubt satan exists, therefore he doesn't affect my thoughts, decisions or actions. I do.
Here's another thought. Let's say god and satan do exist for the sake of argument. Satan wasn't always here, like god, right? God intentionally created satan, knowing full well what satan would do and be like, and all the trouble satan would wreak, therefore the fault lies in the manufacturer. But, hey, I guess that's been part of god's master plan all along and who are we to argue that, right? We really have no choice but to deal with it as best as we can.
I can perfectly understand that if you don't believe in God, you don't believe in Satan.
Yet, if you profess to believe in the New Testament, then there's Satan, big as life. You can argue his position, but you can't argue that he's not there.
M. Jenkins- Christ's nature is unquiqe in religion and is hard to understand even for lifelong Christians. Christ is 100% human. He is 100% God. This concept is the Hypostactic Union. He is not a demigod, or a god in human clothing. He was Sinless and Holy as God was. But he was also human and had all the problems we had. When he returned from the dead, he was like as mankind will become after the Last Day. Find a copy of the Creeds at http//www.lcms.org that should help you understand.
Ohhhh...paradoxical situations give me headaches!
The Langoliers! AAAAAGH!
Um, Matt Pesti, how could he be sinless and yet have all the problems we mere mortals have? Wouldn't he have to at some time or other do sinful things to fight his problems? Paradoxical situations, indeed. No flaming, just wondering.
I thought it was Mary who was born without Original Sin (that's why *SHE*, not Jesus was the Immaculate Conception).
I'm not entirely sure on the Catholic Church's stance, but MY stance says "No way". Mary was a human, not a sinless person.
Jesus faced the troubles and tribulations of humans, yet he never sinned. "But that sounds impossible!" Yes, it is...except for Jesus is perfect.
My understanding is that she was conceived without Original Sin so that she COULD bear Jesus.
I guess you could say that, but I haven't found anything to support that in the Bible. Where did you find that?
I. Ecordiay, we're not understanding each other. I *know* some people don't believe in Satan. That does not affect my belief that there is a Satan. If someone believes the sun goes around the Earth, does that change anything? No.
I believe that whether people believe in Satan or not, he can use them. If their actions are not being guided by God, they are open to doing things which benefit Satan. Their beliefs don't matter. I'm not saying Satan directly controls anyone or that anyone who isn't Christian is conscously serving Satan, just that when you don't let God control your actions for good then Satan will use them for evil. OK?
Jennifer, I think the problem is that you have stated your opinions as axiom, and that everyone has to agree with that as a starting point for debate.
We still haven't all agreed on the axioms for this discussion. Is the world in fact a bipolar zero-sum game between G-d and Satan (assuming for the sake of debate that they do exist, Rodnberry[grin])? If so, then Jennifer's axiom does exists. Do we in fact have any common ground here (besides the fact that none of us are actually discussing Wicca [grin again])?
My next comment is for the Moderator...
Perhaps we should split the G-d/Satan discussion off into its own board? Also, though not a Wiccan myself, I do object to the lumping of Wicca with the New Agers. Wicca has a long and distinguished history. The "New Age" faiths are not on the same ground, IMO. Maybe we should split them off too?
ScottN: I thought about that a little bit myself when I put the topic up, as I wondered if Wiccans would be concerned. I believe M. Jenkins is a Wiccan: Do you agree with Scott?
The Satan discussion should be moved to the "current discussion" board, not given its own topic, as I feel that miscellaneous topics like that should be discussed on the basic board.
The bible never stated that Mary was perfect...she
was an imperfectt human. God was able to protect
Jesus in the womb so that Mary would not pass on
imperfect to her child.
Why do people call Mary a virgin anyway? She did
have children with Joseph after Christ was born.
Christ did have half-brothers and half-sisters.
Because Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus.
I know that...but some people act like she
continued to be a virgin after Jesus was born.
I never said Mary was perfect. I said that she was born without Original Sin.
And.....the difference would be?
Would the discussion of Mary's virginity be more appropriate for the Christian issues board?
J.G.: Yep, although I'm a flexible guy--the specific topic gets the ball rolling, and we improv from there.
Rene: Where do they mention Jesus' brothers? I remember that, but I forgot where.
I want to know about Jesus' siblings also. I had asked this question on a previous board. In the Catholic mass, there is the phrase "I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angles and saints..." I took issue with the "ever virgin" part. Perhaps the Catholics do not recognize that Mary had other children?
If I did believe in Satan, I would agree with Rene's logic that Satan could adversely influence the actions of a person who had no belief in God. On the other hand, that same person could be positively influenced by God, and God is more powerful than Satan. I know that while I was getting drunk on regular basis, I was doing things that would have made this Satan guy very happy. On the other hand, I also did things that were kind and loving and probably inspired by God, even though I did not believe in God at the time.
Jesus had siblings? That's news to me. I thought he was an only child. Maybe I should check my NIV bible about that.
WHAT???!!! Rodnberry has a bible? Oh, my gawd!!! Of all people!!! Quick! Stop the presses! This is front page news!
("Hello. My name is Rodnberry and I'm....a closet bible owner." Boo hoo, weep, weep, sniffle, applause applause!)
Yes, I do, given to me as a gift at xmas '97 by my sister. Ok, there, I admit it. It wasn't easy but I figured it was about time. What a relief. I keep meaning to read it but don't anyone hold out any hope on that. Not that I'm not interested, I am, but I'm also lazy, and I've got tons of novels (mostly ST and SW ones) to read anyway. Oh, and it's not the first one I've ever had. That would be the old children's bible I had as, of course, a kid. Before getting the NIV one (which totally blew me away, I'll tell ya!) I'd made the mistake of telling my sister that on a whim I ordered a KJV one from a Mormon tv ad. I've since given it to my bro-in-law cuz he reads that version (and it's kinda too hard for me to understand anyway) and my sister the NIV one.
Ok, I'm gonna stop now before y'all start liking me too much and expect me to be totally nice and softened from my sudden admission from now on. haha!
Damnn! Now I've really gone and done it, haven't I? I must be slipping.
Pay no attention to the man behind that last post!
Oh, well. If you can't laugh at others, then laugh at yourself.
Cazbah: Agree with you that of course, God and Jesus are a better message to most people, than Satan.
Mike,
Yeah. Focus on the problem, and the problem gets bigger. Focus on the solution, and the solution gets bigger. Why spend my time worrying about Satan when I can be expressing gratitude to God for all the gifts that have been given to me?
The word in Greek could mean Cousins or Brothers or a mix of both. When Jesus is spoke of.
Also I think the name of this site would be better as Neopagan/New Age. Wicca may be based off of the Mother goddess cult of ancient Europe, but some other ones are rather goofy.
2 days gone...and now I'm back...
Mike - My personal preference is for New Age faith to get their own board. New Age, to me, sounds like a trendy fad of the moment. Wicca is not such, as it predates Christianity (if I remember history right).
Jennifer and Rene and whoever - Maybe Satan exists (not that I believe it), but I'd think that in order for him to use you, you have to believe in him. Power of suggestion there.
Matt Pesti - Wicca is NOT a cult. It's a religion, earth based and with a female deity. You wouldn't much appreciate me calling your religion a cult, would you?
No, Wicca is not a cult, and I agree with you there. When I update, I will add New Age religion to their own section...unless no one really is excited about that?
"...I'd think that in order for him to use you, you have to believe in him."
Hypothetical situation here: Satan wants an attractive woman to cheat on her husband. He knows all her weaknesses, and he plays on them to get her into the vicinity of a handsome, lonely atheist. They strike up an aquaintance, but she doesn't tell him she's married. Unwittingly, the atheist serves Satan's ends by becoming romantically involved with the woman.
Belief in Satan is not required to be used by Him, only a disbelief in or distrust of God. If either of these two had acted in accordance with His will, Satan would not have succeeded. Does that explain my belief?
Matthew: Please forgive my late reply, but your black and white thing, black is in actuallity a complete LACK of color. So there is no difference between the two colors, as one isn't a color, and did that sentence make any sense?
However, white isn't a color either, as it is all colors added together. Therefore, they are diametrically opposed. And if you're trying to prove that black is white, better be careful at the next zebra crossing…
I'll check this definition thing out later.
I said the Mother Goddess Cult in ancient Europe was a cult. Wicca is based off it. Hera and Hecate are versions of it in Greek mythlogy. Hera means the lady, and Hecate was a 3 headed goddess of witchcraft. And most new age religions are based off Hinduism which is far more ancient than most other religions.
There's really no difference at all between religions and cults. They're just two words for the exact same thing, which is that one day one person, more often than not a male, has some ideas that he goes out and teaches to others, getting some followers, then before long they declare themselves a religious group. The only difference between the two terms is that cults are most often considered to be evil, or at least, odd, offshoots of longtime established religions, which themselves are most often thought of as more benign, or at least not as bad as the cults, except, of course, by people like me.
Either way, they're both groups that worship a central entity that they mold in their own ways, with the personalities that they wish to have to fit their own agendas.
Then all Lutherans are cultists, right Matt Pesti? No? Then since it's a branch of Christianity, Christianity must be a cult. No? Then the Crusades were Christians praciting cult stuff. Still no? You don't like it? Didn't think so. Wicca is not a cult. It is not based off a cult. It was, is, and will always be an earth based religion.
MJ, if I ever did want to fully get into any religion, I think that it'd have to be yours, since it seems to make the most sense to me cuz you all worship nature, which is as I think it should be. If we all did then there'd be very little, or no, pollution in this world. We wouldn't've invented anything to hurt nature, or at least not to the extent that we have. No gas guzzlling cars, bulldozing down of tropical rainforests, nuclear power plants, etc. There also might be a lot less of us, too. Or would there be much more? Who knows? Anyway, the only reason I don't get into it is just that I'm too lazy. Sorry ass excuse, I know, but it's true.
If I ever saw you walking down the street, regardless of what the usual Wiccan wear is, I wouldn't give you a wide berth out of fear. I'd come right up to you full of curious questions, if you had the time. Hell, I'd probably want to hug you in full support of your pantheistic faith!
Now, this isn't kissing up to you, either, cuz I hate asskissers. It's just how I really feel. About ten years ago, before getting interested in computers and email, I used to snailmail penpals and one of them turned out to be a Wiccan, but she accidently told me, thinking she was telling another friend about it. I asked her about it in I think the next 2 or 3 letters but she didn't like to talk about it and stopped writing me cuz she thought it was all I wanted to talk about, which it wasn't. I even apologized to her but it didn't work. Some people may find it ironic that I'm more supportive of your faith than the so-called established ones but oh, well. I guess it's cuz you don't have all these preconceived notions about others, and fantasies that you all live by, although those who are closeminded and don't wish to know the truth about your faith would think otherwise, but again, oh, well.
I'm getting sick of this argument. I did not come up with Mother goddess cult. It what it is called in the greek Myths volume 1 and 2. All I am trying to say that Comparing Hare Krishna with The great astrogeger Slyvia and call it New age religion. Then you should be able to group Wicca with the worship of Pan and call it Neo Pagan.
And when I say based off, I mean no one has been actiliy practicing or promoting this (I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU CALL IT) for about 1000 years. Thus most ritiuls, practices would be lost. Plus if I recall Galic Wars correctly, Human sacerfice was a big part of most Northren European religions. Then it would have to "based" off it. Also I doubt you really belive the north wind is responable for pregancy.
I may have to start going as Armus Darthinosly at this board.
CULT--deft. in Webster's
1. A system of religious worship
2. Admiration of, or devotion to, a person or thing, especially as a form of intellectual snobbery
3. A passing craze or fashion
4. A creed or sect
Using the first and fourth definitions, it could be applied to Christianity or Wicca. 3 is out, and 2 is debatable.
Well, I think all four definitions could, and do, really apply to all religions/cults.
1. True for all faiths, big or small.
2. True (though misplaced; just look at the followers of D. Koresh, Manson, Jim Jones, et al.)
3. True for some, since so many come and go all the time.
4. Repeat of #1.
Yes, but Christianity, despite whatever faults you might apply is not a "passing craze". Neither is Judaism, Wicca, etc.
Christianity, Wicca, Judaism might also be used for the purposes of intellectual snobbery, but that is not their main purpose.
Maybe christianity, and all current major religions, may one day just be passing footnotes in human history, but that's just speculation, of course....and perhaps a bit of wishful thinking on my part but I'm a realist and don't see it happening anytime soon, if at all, really.
As for the second statement, I do agree with you, as it can also pertain to any religion, large or small. Actually, it really wouldn't be the religion so much as some of the individuals within it.
Rodnberry - Thank you! Well, thank Diana and Aradia, actually...:)
Matt Pesti - I KNOW what you were saying. Your connotative use of 'cult' leaves much to be desired, though.
MikeC - *Mock bow* I surrender to the moderator...;)
Jennifer - Hypothetical situation here: Satan wants an attractive woman to cheat on her husband. He knows all her weaknesses, and he plays on them to get her into the vicinity of a handsome, lonely atheist. They strike up an aquaintance, but she doesn't tell him she's married. Unwittingly, the atheist serves Satan's ends by becoming romantically involved with the woman.
WHAT?! How the HECK do you figure THAT?! The hypocritical...I mean, hypothetical woman was "serving Satan's ends" by being stup¡d enough to think that she should cheat on her husband! Here's a hypothetical situation along the same route:
I work for a small corporation who makes defense weapons...wait, think Eraser. Was Lee Cullen serving Satan's ends by working for Cyrez? Or was she an innocent victim? Same thing with said atheist! Was he really serving Satan's ends, or was he an innocent victim?
NONONO!! The man is innocent (not that I believe in innocence either)! The woman should burn in AZ or hell or whatever you call it...though I'd hope no Wiccan would do that (Threefold Rule here).
I think (although it was a bit unclear) she meant that the man was unwittingly perpretrating Satan's plans, i.e.--the destruction of marriage, rampart adultery, sin. The "atheist" character was unecessary--any one: Christian, atheist, Muslim can unwittingly perpetrate evil.