Since when do we actually stay on topic?
Here's a subject that hasn't come up lately. How does anyone feel about it?
My view is that there shouldn't be any laws against it. Why should someone be forced to live the rest of their lives in excruciating pain, especially if they're unable to express their feelings on what they want done? It's completely inhumane to force someone to live like that. The best thing to do is to let the person's doctor or family give the ok to pull the plug, if the person him/herself is unable to. Otherwise, there's no compassion for the person who's suffering. I know I'd hate to be in that situation.
I'm sorry, I have no idea how the Create New Conversation button got here. Would you mind, Rodnberry, if I moved this to the Specific Debate board?
Not at all. Thanks for asking first.
Doesn't anybody else wanna post their opinions here?
O.K. I don't like it.
I'm not against it, but we must be careful that the person would really want it and they're not just trying to save bed space. Compassion, yes, but don't be too eager to pull the plug. And don't kill someone who's a) not going to die because of their condition, b) is not is any significant pain, and c) can still function. Basically this eliminates whining paraplegics/quadriplegics. Sorry if that sounded callous, but I simply cannot understand why someone would give up on life just because they couldn't walk.
You Asked, Frankenberry
It's wrong. It's murder, We can't make life we can't take it. Once life devaules to the point were comfort is the only issue we are in trouble. Life and death are God's domain.
So Pesti, since I have it written into my living will that I want to die if the doctors believe I'll be on life support the rest of my life, is that still murder? Even if it's what I want? And I am perfectly healthy and am pretty stable in my mentality.
You see...I don't want people spending money to keep me breathing just because I'd be a vegetable. It's MY choice to make, no one else's. And it's not your right to be calling it murder. Especially if it's what I want.
Sorry if that sounded callous, but I simply cannot understand why someone would give up on life just because they couldn't walk.
It is more complicated than the inability to walk. It has more to do with the perceived quality of life. There are plenty of people with severe disabilities who would not call the next Dr. Kevorkian. Why? Because they perceive their lives as worth living.
Are those paraplegics and quads being treated as anybody else who wants to kill themselves? I mean, I am capable of walking unassisted. If I said, "Life stinks and I want to kill myself," I would have scores of people telling me how much I have going for me. If I insisted, I would probably be forced to undergo counseling, be committed, get pumped full of Prozac. Now, let's say that I get a spinal injury and need a wheelchair to get around. Are the same number of people going to try to stop me if I wanted to end my life?
J: I would say, probably about as many people would try to stop you. Especially anyone you know that has to use a wheelchair.
Speaking of wheelchairs, in a way, does anyone know if a private school can be sued under the Americans With Disabilities Act? My school is SO non-compliant, it's not even funny. No elevators, no ramps, no handicapped bathrooms, narrow doors… it's a wonder they haven't been sued already. Of course, they just make up an excuse to turn away all handicapped students, but what if a teacher had a spinal injury but was still able to function and wanted to come back and teach?
Well, that was pretty off-topic, but I've been thinking about it in the last few days. Add that to my list of crusades, along with reforming the band program, which is basically because of jealousy and a sense of injustice. My friends back home get to use their talents in a rigorous program designed to improve them and push them to their limit. Why then can I not do it when I know I am just as talented as the rest of them, and more than some? Also, trying to improve the cafeteria food, schedules, and the Internet Acceptable Use Policy. Basically I'm working for the school now, although they don't know it and I'm not getting paid.
That was even MORE off-topic, but I just got up and am preparing to write an outline of a paper about these very things. I probably won't be around as much for a while.
I believe so. It applies to businesses with X number of employees. A private school is a business, but they may fall UNDER the employee threshold.
People want suicide, yet it is illegal in this country. Isn't assisted suicide a similar thing?
Of course, I do think that our country tries to keep too many alive against all odds. I think there comes a point when we should be worrying about keeping the person comfortable, rather than healing them. I think we should be able to reject forms of healing or surgery, but I am not sure on taking the extra mile of ending your life.
People want suicide, yet it is illegal in this country.
Just out of curiousity, how would you prosecute someone for a successful suicide? And would the penalty be death?
You know...I always thought the illegal suicide law was comical. Say Joe blows his brains out. What're they gonna do, put his corpse in jail? Put his corpse on trial and sentence him? Stick him in the penitentiary to rot? Gimme a break...
No, there is no penalty if you successfully complete the suicide. The penalty is if you try and fail. The reason it is outlawed is because they know that most people who commit suicide are not in the right mind or condition.
The reason it is outlawed is because they know that most people who commit suicide are not in the right mind or condition.
But then, the verdict at the trial for attempted suicide should always be "Not Guilty by reason of Insanity".
So what, outlawing suicide is gonna stop people from trying? They're obviously already feeling like they hit rock bottom anyway...if they're that depressed that they don't care about their lives, what idiot thought that they'd care about the law?
I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want with their lives. If they want Euthanasia why should they be denied?
It is THEIR LIFE, the government, the church, no one but the individual has a true right to say it is right or wrong. The government or church has no right to tell me mercy killing is wrong or suicide is wrong. If someone wants to kill themselves then people should talk to them first...if counseling does not work then they should be allowed to commit suicide. I have one $hitty life. And people tell me that what I am upset about is nothing. How do they know??? If I want to end it all I shall do so.
Anon - I agree that it's no one's business to tell anyone else that suicide is wrong, or mercy killing is wrong. But I'd lay odds that no country (or church) wants to claim that they're number 1 in suicide ratings. Hence, the illegality of it.
I happen to know that Japan is #1 in teen suicide rates… something to do with the immense pressure they put on kids to succeed in school and the enormous shame that gets dumped on them if they fail. At certain points, they have tests to measure your progress. Pass, and you get to keep going to school. Fail, and you get kicked out and go to a trade school or hope that people that pass by your shopping cart are generous.
And a "Not Guilty by reason of Insanity" verdict would get you promptly slapped into a sanitarium, which is probably the best place for someone wanting to commit suicide.
I don't think the church wishes to have anyone kill themselves because (1) C'mon! Does anyone really WANT to see anyone blow a hole in their head? and (2) Suicide is forbidden in many religions.
Ok, here's one.
How does Martyrdom differ from suicide? Is it the motive? I mean, let's face it, many martyrs went into their situations KNOWING they'd be killed. Isn't that tantamount to suicide?
MikeC:
And a "Not Guilty by reason of Insanity" verdict would get you promptly slapped into a sanitarium, which is probably the best place for someone wanting to commit suicide.
Maybe for that person. But what about society? Anti-suicide laws are by their very nature unenforceable, and, for failed suicide attempts, unwinnable cases (see above argument about NGI...). Does having such a law on the books really benefit society? Or does it harm society by eroding respect for the Law by having such stoopid-a** laws on the books?
MARTYRS VS. SUICIDE
Well, then, that would make all soldiers guilty of suicide, as the odds are likely they are going to die in battle...
ANTI-SUICIDE LAWS
I don't get the problem of having anti-suicide laws. Infringement on their rights? Well, by golly, let's stop forcing people to wear seatbelts or not use illegal narcotics!
Mike, the problem with an anti-suicide law is that it is unenforceable. If the actual act of suicide is illegal, it is impossible to punish the offender. If attempted suicide is illegal, pretty much any offender should be not guilty by reason of insanity. What is the point of having completely unenforceable (as opposed to laws that for some reason or other society has chosen not to enforce) laws on the books. It has nothing to do with rights. Laws that are impossible to enforce lead to contempt for other laws.
Matthew -
It also has to do with personal and family honor. Dishonor is a fate worse than death, and many believe that the only way to reclaim lost honor is to commit ritualistic suicide.
Which was true in Japan centuries ago, and still is to a certain extent today, right, MJ? It's called seppuku. Maybe that's where the term, "Dying of embarassment" originated from.
Very good, Mark. And on a side note, I suppose I should add that I believe in honor, and if I choose to commit suicide to regain lost honor, well...it's no one's problem but mine. Or solution to a problem, as the case may be.
And anyway, why does the US even care whether or not someone commits suicide? The antisuicide law is a silly measure, and it wasted resources in getting it passed. Personally, I think they should have used it to decrease the deficit. (Of course...if we didn't have such a huge deficit, we wouldn't be the US.)
Wasted resources? You mean the ink used to put it in the law books?
Anti-suicide laws may sound silly, but having an uncle once on the verge of suicide, it does work, albeit in a roundabout way. If it were not illegal, then there would be no reason to have police standoffs with suicidal people.
If it were not illegal, then there would be no reason to have police standoffs with suicidal people.
No. Suicide and public suicide are two different things. If I want to go home and blow my head off, so be it. If I want to go jump off the Empire State Building, I am creating a public hazard.
And the money that was used in creating the thing w/o loopholes, and getting it on the agenda, and promoting a yes vote on it, and getting it onto the floor, and getting it okayed w/o a veto, Mike. Yeah, and the ink too.
Again, Mike, my complaint about anti-suicide laws is that they are inherently unenforceable. Nobody who attempts suicide is really in their right mind. They obviously can't prosecute successful suicde attempts, and should never be able to get a conviction in unsuccessful attempts. My point is that because this kind of law is unenforceable (and really does nothing except say "we think suicide is wrong"), it generates contempt for the Law in general, and as such should be taken off the books. If a legislature wishes to say that they think suicide is wrong, let them pass a resolution (no teeth required) saying so.
Actually, Scott, I could take offense to your statement that "nobody who attempts suicide is really in their right mind." ;) But I won't. I think I know what you mean anyway (most people do it 'cause they're screwed in the head). But then, that leads me to wonder: What do we classify as "right mind"? If I want to go slit my wrists because my boytoy dumped me for a stripper, am I in my "right mind"? What about if I decide to follow my ancestors' footsteps, and commit suicide to regain what I perceive is my lost honor? Or what if I beg my imaginary friend to help me kill myself? Or if I want to hire Kevorkian?
Now, IMO, scenario 1 is what I call "extreme." Scenario 2 is my ancestral right. Scenario 3 is me either a) being silly and no one got it b)I've gone off the deep end. Scenario 4 is again, my right.
Scenario 4 would in fact, allow for a conviction. I stand corrected. Though I suspect TPTB would go after Kevorkian rather than you... Though they might go after you for contract murder (your own!)?!?!
What about when a person signs a "Do Not Resucitate(sp?)" order? Is that the same thing? Some people don't want to be kept alive only by machines, with no hope of improving.
Scott - *LOL* I'll hire assassins to take ME out!
Margie - That's the living will. Which I have (just need signed and notarised). But yeah, I know what you mean.
I think (in my opinion) that it is rather callous for the police to do nothing when it comes to suicide. Let's see that Mr. Jones down the block decides he wants to blow his brains out with a shotgun. Are people supposed to do nothing? Maybe Mr. Jones isn't right in the mind. Maybe he's had too much to drink. Shouldn't we at least try to prevent people from throwing their life away? I know my uncle did not really want to shoot himself--thank God that the police did come and take him away temporarily.
I have no problem with society in general trying to discourage suicide (i.e. the police, etc...) What I have a problem with is the law making suicide (or attempted suicide) illegal. A law against suicide is by definition unenforceable (the perp is dead). A law against attempted suicide is pretty futile, since it would be almost impossible to get a conviction.
How about using the death penalty for attempted suicide :-)
Mike - I have to agree with Scott. There's nothing wrong with society trying to discourage suicide. But to force a person to live a life they're obviously unhappy with...that, IMO, is tantamount to forcing people to be indentured servants. Well, no, that's not quite right...but it's the best I can do. Mr Jones gets stopped by the cops, and he's sober, and just is REALLY unhappy. Shall we continue to force him to try and be a "productive" member of society? Remember...Big Brother is watching!
2+2=5, of course.
Why is Mr. Jones unhappy? Don't you think we should try solving his problems before letting him blow his head off?
My views on suicide are probably a little more extreme than most, since I feel that individual is depriving himself of a chance for a good life and a personal relationship with God.
I think (in my opinion) that it is rather callous for the police to do nothing when it comes to suicide
I tend to avoid these boards due to the controversial issue but if I am not mistaken police DO show up if you call them and someone is trying to kill themselves. Not because of any legal issues but because the police's duty is to maintain order, save lives, and to HELP! So police do try and help suicidal people, unless I am mistaken but I don't believe so...
Dan R.--They do. I'm just saying that they should continue to do so.
Mike, we're not arguing with that. At least I'm not. My argument is that it is pointless to make (attempted) suicide illegal. Dan's point is completely well taken, and I think that ethical considerations would have them come, even if there isn't an anti-suicide statute. I assume that some states don't have anti-suicide laws, and that the cops still come.
On a larger view, do unenforceable laws in actuality lead to contempt for the Law in general?
Mike -
Why are we butting into Mr Jones' personal problems again? Did he say, "Hey Mike, I want to blow my head off 'cause I'm having marital problems and I got laid off at work and I just found out I'm at high risk for prostrate cancer. Can you help me first, though?"? Or did he just decide to take care of matters himself?
My view is this - If Mr Jones asks for help outright, then give it. If not, don't try to play mommy and force him to take it three times a day, once with each meal. He certainly has a right to deal with matters as he sees fit. Certainly, an offer of help should be made, but it should not be forced. And I'm not a great believer in the power of Prozac as an antidepressant. It just brainwashes you into agreeing with the psychoshrinks.
(On a mild side note, which I probably shouldn't mention but will - I myself have been in a suicidal stage before. And if someone had meddled in my affairs, because I was extremely unhappy, I probably would have killed myself a lot faster. As it is, I avoid the psychoshrinks and the brainwashing drugs, and I'm quite through that stage.)
I'm not an advocate of psychoshrinks by any means. What I do endorse is good old honest care and love. As you said, we should offer help (and definitely show care). I guess, like you said, that if they don't want to hear it, they would kill themselves anyway.
I think why most people despise the Law is because it is getting so that nearly every law is unenforceable in this day of high-priced lawyers.
M: The drugs really do work. People's brain chemistry can get quite out of whack. Prozac and other antidepressants simply restore the balance. That's all. They don't brainwash anyone.
Matthew - Maybe, maybe not. But I also find it a rather convenient excuse for people to say "Oh, well, her brain is screwed up. Drugs will solve everything!". Why in the world are so many people depressed if it's a matter of brain chemistry?
And I still refuse to take antidepressants (much to my mother's dismay). Big Brother comes in the form of psychoshrinks, IMO.
M. Jenkins wrote:
(On a mild side note, which I probably shouldn't mention but will - I myself have been in a suicidal stage before. And if someone had meddled in my affairs, because I was extremely unhappy, I probably would have killed myself a lot faster. As it is, I avoid the psychoshrinks and the brainwashing drugs, and I'm quite through that stage.)
You too, eh? Same here. I've been through plenty of suicidal stages (and a girl I used to work with has too, much to my surprise) and never realy told anyone but that girl and I knew I could tell her and she would keep it quiet. I knew that if she said anything to anyone it would just help me along faster to kill myself.
Some people are just screwed up and it's all in their heads. But some people DO suffer from chemical imbalances that cause them to behave in such a manner. They are who the drugs are meant to help.
Yes, some people do need drugs to help them. They're not miracle cures--but they can and do work.
But Matthew and Mike, my gripe about the psychoshrinks is this: They're too Prozac happy! They're too eager to write people off as having chemical imbalances and prescribe drugs that's worse than being on a maryjane high! I once told my college counselor that I had had mild depression, and that I knew the cause of it, and she, without further ado, pronounced I had a chemical imbalance and should see a psychiatrist to get prescribed Prozac. Needless to say, I never talked to her again.
That's my problem. I'm quite adept at psychoanalysing myself, and I know what my problem is. And I won't see a headshrinker, 'cause it's none of their business. It's mine, and I'll deal with it myself.
Dan - *Nods* Yeah, I know that feeling. Almost like people don't understand that some of us are better served by leaving us alone than by being overly solicitous and nauseatingly pampering us.
M. Jenkins wrote:
That's my problem. I'm quite adept at psychoanalysing myself, and I know what my problem is. And I won't see a headshrinker, 'cause it's none of their business. It's mine, and I'll deal with it myself.
Whoa! Same here! Great minds think alike! :-) I am interested in psychology a little bit and I like to analize myself too. I know what my problems are, and I know what is best for myself. If that means I think suicide is best for me, so be it. No one in this universe can actually tell you what is wrong with you and what the solution is. The girl that I am close to, knows me the best. But she wouldn't know what the right thing for me is. And I wouldn't know whats best for her either.
Dan - *Nods* Yeah, I know that feeling. Almost like people don't understand that some of us are better served by leaving us alone than by being overly solicitous and nauseatingly pampering us.
Thats right. Sometimes I like nothing more than to shut my door, put on my head phone and listen to my favorite singer Mariah Carey. Her music soothes me, cheers me up, or mellows me out...its just what I need sometimes. Sometimes I only want to be left alone. Other times I want to be with my friends to cheer up. But I could never, NEVER go to a psychologst to get help. I can help myself in different ways. And if I run out of ways and feel that life is no longer worth living, then I shall end it all. But I will never see a shrink and NEVER take prozac or anything LIKE prozac!
For God's (or, for M., Goddess') sakes! Listen to yourselves! I may not have the answers. But there's one thing I know that's an absolute, unalterable, truth. If you're dead, there is a 0% chance that things will ever improve for you. Period. This is why I will never even consider suicide, no matter how bad things become for me. (Also I believe that suicides go to Hell, but that's just me.) And I find this blanket condemnation of Prozac and psychotherapists rather odd and irrational as well. They are here to help, you know! Maybe if you'd actually go see a SERIOUS one NOT connected with a school of any sort (they mostly exist to be extra administrators), you'd find this out! And Prozac does help people! My own mother suffers from one of the myriad forms of depression. It IS caused by imbalances in her brain, and Prozac helps her trmendously! Don't condemn something for everyone just because you think you're too good for it! And I need to go to bed because at this point, I don't know what I'm saying and I'm just ranting! But you people need to get a grip on yourselves!
Matthew -
*LOL* Honestly, I'm not laughing at you or your post. But I simply MUST beg to differ. And I must also point out that I said I HAD gone through a suicidal stage. I never said I was still in it. If I were, I doubt I'd be here saying that I had gone through suicidal ages.
Ok, point number 1 - If I'm dead, what makes you think things won't improve? Remember, I do believe in suicide as a way to regain lost honor. It's a cultural thing, and I won't shun my culture summarily. If I've ever done anything to dishonor myself or my family (an example might be a hit-and-run), I would seriously consider ritualistic suicide. Maybe that's not what YOU perceive as right, but it is to me.
Point number 2 - I did go see a "serious" shrink. Granted, I went once, in fifth grade, when I was forced to go. It produced nothing but 2 hours' worth of blank stares towards madame shrink. And just recently, I found out exactly why I was forced to go. Basically, my school admin, my fifth grade teacher, and even a Superior Court judge felt I needed it. 1 week after the last custody battle my parents had, I might add. And they didn't know what sort of long term effects I might have had, either.
Well, I can tell you what sort of long term effects that had - my "odd and irrational" hatred of shrinks. And my "odd and irrational" hatred of people interfering in my life. And my "odd and irrational" blanket condemnation of both drugs and shrinks. Hell, I know someone who's studying to be a therapist. He's a great guy, but he knows not to try any sort of psychoanalysing of me. I can't stand it.
Point number 3 - I'm sorry about your mother, but I do not suffer from imbalance induced depression. And even if I did go see a shrink that ordered me on it, I wouldn't take it. I dislike taking drugs for any reason other than for chemical reasons...if I'm not imbalanced, then the only effect I see Prozac as having is to give me a maryjane type high. Did I mention I hate being high? Or, on a better note, it'd have no effect. So, for me, it's pointless. It's not a matter of me thinking I'm "too good for it". If I honestly thought it'd help, I'd happily go to a shrink to get it shoved down my throat.
Point number 4 - The "here to help" bit. Again, as I was forced to go, "for my own good", I (obviously) don't believe they're here to help. I believe they're here to make money by telling me something I already know. If I didn't know what was wrong with me, fine, I'd go. But I do know. So I also don't need to "go see a serious one"...it'd be a waste of money I don't have and time I don't care to give.
Point number 5 - I have quite a grip on myself, thankyouverymuch. I don't condemn you for having different beliefs than me. I'll thank you to not do the same.
Point number 1- Well, you won't be around on Earth to MAKE them improve, will you? No. I don't see why giving up on everything is a way to regain lost honor, it seems rather stupˇd to me.
Point number 2- Have you ever gone voluntarily? Have you ever actually felt you needed help? Have you ever actually said anything to said shrink? (My parents made me go for the stupidest reason ever. It was a month and a half after we moved. They said I "wasn't adjusting well enough to the new situation." Let's see… everyone I know might as well have died, I live in a house that was decorated by someone whose tastes are exactly the opposite of mine, my school is one of the most repressed on Earth… I think that's an adjustment that would take rather more than six weeks or so to make! I jsut steered the conversation to anything but what the parents wanted. And that woman makes a killing, too! $100 an hour! If I thought I could stand listening to people ••••• about their lives, I'd go in to psychiatry!)
Point number 3- Are you sure? I mean, do you have proof?
Point number 4- Seeing as how you were forced into going, I don't think you can automatically assume that none of them are there to help. (Really, forcing people to go is counter-productive. You have to be willing to be helped.)
Point number 5- Again, you sure? Seems to me that you have quite an irrational dislike of something that MAY actually be able to help if you would just give it a chance.
I find it a bit odd that I'm arguing about this and defending the psychiatrists. As I mentioned before, my parents forced me into going as well. I've always thought that there are very few problems in my own mind that God and I cannot solve without help from some shrink. If I ever had a problem that we couldn't, I'd consider the shrink. I really don't think it's as bad as you say. Believe it or not, SOME people actually care. Yes, even in the twilight of the Second Millennium (which is entirely arbitrary, and it's time we admitted that and moved on.)
Matthew, you said you'd never consider suicide, no matter how bad things got? Well, believe me, you would, under the right circumstances. Now, I don't presume to speak for you, of course. I'm just saying that unless you've been there you probably can't say with any certainty just what you'd do in that situation.
Not to get on the bandwagon here, but I've had 3 times I thought I'd suicide. Looking back, the first two I know I'd've wimped out on cuz it wasn't really that bad then, but the third time I felt the strongest that I could and possibly would do it. I know, cuz I believed it so strongly that a very intense calmness overcome me, since I believed I'd actually do it. The one thing that saved me that night was when I called my sister to tell her goodbye without telling her goodbye so as to not arouse suspicion, but I guess I gave myself away with my voice cuz she picked up on my mood (she's kinda a bit psychic) and asked me if I wanted to do that. I tell ya, when she asked me that I couldn't say anything for a long time. Then she started begging me not to do it, then she cried, then I cried. I finally didn't do it of course, otherwise all of you wouldn't've had the pleasure of all of my various posts. I told her not to tell our brother, other sister, mom or definitely not our dad, who was in very bad health at that time (he died Feb 1998). Well, long story short (if that's even possible at this point), she called our sister who lives in town, and she came over that night with her husband, bringing some food (don't ask, I dunno why) and we talked a bit. They're the ones who gave me my niv bible 2 xmases ago. I don't even remember what I was depressed about but it was very strong, and thankfully I've not felt that bad since. The whole thing was very embarassing, cuz our younger sister called everyone that I didn't want her to, except Dad. Our mom and brother called me, then the older sis came over. I still know that I could do it someday, but whether or not I actually ever will remains to be seen.
My point is that you may know right now that you'd not do it at this time, but you never know what you'll be like in the future, or if the situation would ever come up that you'd actually consider, let alone attempt, suicide. You seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders so I don't believe you'd do it, but really, anyone could do it under the right (or is that wrong?) circumstances, no matter how strongly they may believe otherwise.
Matt wrote:
If you're dead, there is a 0% chance that things will ever improve for you. Period.
Well, one thing, look at M's response. I agree with her on that point. and 2, there are some points when suicide feels like it would be an improvement itself!
We're not condemning prozac or anything Matt. It's just that some shrinks are all to anxious to prescribe it. Instead of actually TRYING to help the patient, they prescribe prozac and think everything will be all fine and dandy. Like I said, I don't need anyone to help me but myself, but if I went to a shrink I would be looking for some help, not some drugs. I live in DC, if I wish to buy drugs I will walk down the street. But I do not like a whole bunch of chemicals in my body. The only chemical like thing I do let in is nicotine.
point 3- I don't suffer from an imbalance either. My problems are all real, and have nothing to do with imbalances in the brain.
and point 5 - I do have a grip on myself, thanks for asking.
And I agree with Mark, matt. If you have suffered through some things that I have...could you really say you wouldn't commit suicide? There are some things so bad in this life that would make you change your thinking. I hope you never have to face horrible things that would actually do that, but I am just saying there are somethings.
Mark - thats too bad that your sister went and told everyone when you didn't want her to. I don't know if I could have dealt with that. The 2 friends that I have told I was suicidal sometimes know me enough that it would be worse to tell others. Plus both of them know that they have confided and trusted me with personal info on them and know that the least they can do is show the same respect and keep things secret, as I have done for them.
could you really say you wouldn't commit suicide?
Yes, I can! It doesn't matter what is happening. I face my problems, and I overcome them. With God's help, I can work through anything that happens to me. I fear nothing. I will never give up. Oblivion is not the answer.
Meanwhile, Dan, you might find that at least SOME shrinks care about helping people and not the drug companies. All you have to do is see one that can't prescribe drugs, nd that solves that right there.
And I just have to laugh about the nicotine. That is FAR more detrimental to your health than Prozac or anything else could ever be.
I second both Dan and Mark, Matthew. I'm not really so much depressed anymore (contrary to my mother's belief), but I've gone and...what'd she call it? "Closed myself off from human emotions" I think it was. And as I think that's pretty self explanatory, I shan't add to it.
And yes, part of that is because of my parents' long and drawn out custody battle that spanned five or six years and three states. But the other part, I pray to the Lady that neither you nor your friends ever experience what I did. And no, I'm not going to say what it was, either.
Ok, that was point 3. Lemme back track here:
Point 1 - Thankyousoverymuch for insulting my beliefs. I'm certainly glad to hear you've apparently been raised as what I perceive a "true American" would be like. And that you act like one too.
Point 2 - Why would I go voluntarily? Like I said, I already know what the root of my problem is. There'd be no point in me going. Unless maybe it's to babble on how my life sux, or to go into a disgustingly emotional bout of tears which is supposed to act as a catharsis of sorts (but rarely does that for me). Or maybe to hear how I've got so much going for me and so many people who love me and care for me, etc. If that's the reason, I'd really rather not go. That's just as nauseatingly disgusting (to me) as the emotional bout of tears.
Point 3 - refer to the very top.
Point 4 - I'll grant you that. Maybe I should say that I don't want any of them to try and be my personal cheerleader. I'd sooner take chemisty and physics and all sorts of math classes first (and that's my personal hell, let me tell you). And my mother and stepfather are off on this kick of getting me back into therapy *sighs*. I, however, almost did ask to be put into it. Until I realised it'd be a waste of my time. I'd do the same thing I did last time (stare at the shrink till s/he got tired of trying).
Point 5 - Yes, I'm quite sure. And yes, it MAY help. The chances of that happening, however, are...one in one hundred trillion.
Maybe some people care. Maybe not. I, however, won't believe that some random stranger who's been trained to be patronising and coddly really would care. And to be quite frank, I don't think your constant advertising of them will help, either. I have an inherent mistrust of people, and psychoshrinks are at the top of the list.
Dan - Thank you...for at least not calling my cultural beliefs stupˇd simply because you don't believe the same.
Mark - Glad you're still here with us!
Wow! I think that's my longest rant yet!
We've kind of moved from debating the purely logical aspects of suicide to the religious aspects of it. Which gives us this question:
"Suicide is approved by various religions. Does this mean that banning it would be interfering with religion?"
Of course, murder is allowed by various religions, and we don't allow that.
That's because murder is frowned upon by Judeo-Christianity, which is one of the largest religions in the world. And since all these other "various religions" have been destroyed or beaten down by Judeo-Christianity (lacking any other term), it stands to reason that their beliefs would be destroyed or beaten down too.
Culture generally determines religion. Wiccan doesn't approve of suicide (Wiccan Rede), but my culture does. So banning it would not only interfere with religion, it would interfere with cultural beliefs. And as suicide only affects the suicidee, it's also a senseless ban. IMO, of course.
Meanwhile, Dan, you might find that at least SOME shrinks care about helping people and not the drug companies. All you have to do is see one that can't prescribe drugs, nd that solves that right there.
I forget which one it is...I THINK it's psychatrists...that can always prescribe medicine, I think the psychologists are the only ones who can't prescribe drugs and thats really the only difference between the 2...but I am not too sure and I think most shrinks now a days are psychatrists so they can make more money by prescribing the drugs.
And I just have to laugh about the nicotine. That is FAR more detrimental to your health than Prozac or anything else could ever be.
But Nicotine does not alter your state of mind. It helps soothe you, or calm you down but that is temporary. Prozac mellows you out and alters your brain chemistry. The difference is dependence. I have not smoked since Friday night and I am fine. Can you do that with prozac? I think not. You have to take it all the time...and YOU can't decide to stop. The shrink makes that decision for you. Again that is what I am arguing about. I can't have my decision made for me!
Actually, you can do that with Prozac. I see people do it all the time. Eventually it sort of builds up in your tissues, to where you can go off for a few days without noticing anything at all. And sometimes your chemistry will go back to normal by itself, and you don't have to take it. Finally, it IS your decision to stop it. The shrink can't stop you. If you're really that desperate not to take it, just flush the pills down the toilet or something!
BTW, you just contradicted yourself when you said that nicotine doesn't alter your state of mind… but then you go on to say that it does, temporarily. And it has other effects that are a lot worse than affecting your state of mind. Especially when you get it by smoking.
Well yes I suppose you could flush the pills, but if you are that against prozac you should say so to the shrink and see what dangers there are to suddenly stopping a medication.
Yes it was a contradiction. But nicotine doesn't give you a drugged out look when you use it. I've seen prozac users look like your average drug users: staring off into space because the drug numbs you down enough where you think everything is picture perfect. Nicotine simply calms you down for a while. And by the time the nicotine effect wears off, whatever is causing you stress is probably gone or solved back then. Prozac you have to take on a schedule. You have to take it at certain times. You can't get upset over something and then pop the pill and then decided to stop.
And it has other effects that are a lot worse than affecting your state of mind. Especially when you get it by smoking.
LOL, trust me Matt, my weight problem will probably kill me before any lung cancer even begins to show up.
Smoking kills my appetite and helps me lose weight. When I get skinny enough, THEN I shall worry about any effect of smoking.
And I'VE seen Prozac users who were previously unable to function lead normal lives because of the stuff! You can't argue that something is bad for everyone when it REALLY DOES help people!
When I get skinny enough, THEN I shall worry about any effect of smoking.
So, you're replacing one health problem with another. It might start out with only a few per day and "I can quit any time I want to," but it would not end that way. My grandfather had a heart attack and bypass surgery directly caused by his smoking. He was so hooked on the things that he kept on smoking, in secret, for about five years after that! It took ANOTHER heart attack and bypass for him to finally quit. But the smoking thing is an issue best left for the Brady Bunch…
Sure it helps some people but I am talking about how the shrinks seem to want to put EVERYONE on it.
And it might be just "replacing one health problem with another" too you, but I have been fat all my life, and would like to look good for once in my life.
Mark - thats too bad that your sister went and told everyone when you didn't want her to. I don't know if I could have dealt with that.
Thanks, but she did it out of love, the best reason one family member could do something for another, so I've always forgiven her for it. I don't really think about it too much anymore, anyway, simply cuz there's really no point in it.
I've seen prozac users look like your average drug users: staring off into space because the drug numbs you down...
Like having Schlotzky's on the brains? :^)
Mark - thats too bad that your sister went and told everyone when you didn't want her to. I don't know if I could have dealt with that.
Thanks, but she did it out of love, the best reason one family member could do something for another, so I've always forgiven her for it. I don't really think about it too much anymore, anyway, simply cuz there's really no point in it.
Thats good. I know if the girl I told told someone it would be out of love too but the thing is I don't like having everyone know about it. My family has never really been close, and sometimes they are just plain $tupid. If she told them I think the only thing they would do is commit me.
I've seen prozac users look like your average drug users: staring off into space because the drug numbs you down...
Like having Schlotzky's on the brains? :^)
Or drinking to many Barq's....you know how the foam goes straight to your brain...;-)
M. Jenkins: So your culture allows suicide, but your religion doesn't? That's interesting.
Pretty odd. Is there anything in Christianity that specifically forbids suicide? I don't see it anywhere in the concordance/dictionary/index of my Bible, but then I think that was mainly a publishers' afterthought because it has never helped me find anything useful.
As for suicide, can someone tell me why it's acceptable in some cultures to commit suicide to regain lost honor? It would seem that those who chose suicide would be remembered for giving up or failing, not "doing something bad, but regaining some honor at the end." Or maybe I just don't know enough about the situation?
Mike - *Drily* Interesting isn't quite the word here...But that's the basic gist of it.
Matthew - Have you ever read the book "The General's Daughter" by Nelson DeMille? In it, Cynthia Sunhill is telling Paul Brenner a quote that a rape victim told her (Sunhill is a rape counselor). That's the basic belief of commiting suicide to regain lost honor.
"Compared to shame, death is nothing."
Some people are so cowardly that even after they've dishonored themselves, they won't go about seeking death to rectify it. So they'll forever live with that blot on their code of honor. Others believe that by embracing a dagger, they've proven they don't fear death and any punishment that may come from the gods...that they acknowledge what they did, and accept whatever the gods dole out as punishment. And by admitting THAT, they're believed to regain, in death, the honor they lost in life. To err is human...to acknowledge an error is honorable.
NOTE: The topic at the end (about D. Stuart) has been deleted, mainly because it was off-topic and even offensive to the man at times.
Is that why in the Specific Topics this board's latest date is November 7 but when I came here the last one was dated October 26?
Yes.
Just continuing so that MarkN doesn't feel unloved... Yes, I know, his heart is taken by M.J.
I already told my little anecdote about receiving medical care I did not want or need, and how I was not listened to. (I am boycotting that airline. Considering I never travel, that's very easy! ;-) ) Why wasn't I listened to? To be honest, I have no idea. Was I mentally capable of understanding my decision to refuse treatment? I think so, but the people in charge obviously disagreed.
This does not bode well for the future.
That's because everyone thinks that they know what's best for Joe Blow down the street. Humans are incredibly arrogant and have a superiority complex that makes Q look humble. Humans look at how the world is, then try to run it as they think it should be, ignoring all other beliefs and POVs. And anything that doesn't fit into a nice neat compartment of their life, they rail and rage and whine, and sue everyone because they want instant gratification and can't have it. Pesti and Vargo think they know what's best for everyone, so they rail and rage and scream at us that follow a different path. I think I know what's best for everyone, so I get sarcastic and cynical. MarkN thinks he knows what's best for everyone, so he goes off into 12k rants. Am I "slamming" anyone over it? Obviously not, since I included myself into this categorisation. Humans have this weird idea that if they interfere in the life of Sally Ann next door, they'll be doing her a favor, whether or not it really is in the best intentions. Case in point would be that 14 year old girl here who turned into a national scandal because she wanted a late term abortion and the judge granted it. There's another case like that here where the public thinks its interference is best.
Quick summarisation: James Hamm, a convicted murderer, has served his 25 year sentence and now wants to become an attorney. He's taken all the courses, passed his bar exam, and is waiting for word from the State Bar. Most conservatives are screaming for his blood. One radio talk show used the analogy that letting Hamm practice law is like letting a hijacker be a commercial pilot or letting a child abuser run a daycare center (I corrected the analogy with Crisa by saying it'd be like letting Hamm become a health care professional).
Back onto topic (kinda)...if a person wishes to refuse treatment, so be it. It's not any one person's place to ignore that person's wishes. They should be respected and fulfilled. Otherwise, it leads to resentment and hatred and anger, and any potential good will have been negated.
JG, there's more than enough of me to go around but after seeing MJ's pic I'm totally smitten by her for sure now! Of course, if she doesn't mind sharing.....
MJ, I don't think I know what's best for everyone, although perhaps I come across as seeming to sometimes. At least I hope I don't. But you're right about my long rants, which I try to keep shorter but well, sometimes it's hard not to, ya know?
Now, that said, on to the topic of this board. Despite what some people think, due to their religion, it's totally wrong to deny medical treatment to save someone's life. They say it's god's will that the person should live or die but of course that's completely bogus. They choose not to think (for whatever reasons) that perhaps god gave us all enough intelligence to create ways to help the sick and to heal them and help prolong their lives instead of just letting them die needlessly, that god's doing his work thru medical personal, if not all of us at some time or other. Now, if they think that then they're denying god, and if they deny god then they're really atheists, right? Anyone agree? I mean, how can someone not want to think that god heals us thru some of us? Why does he have to point his finger, or even with a mere thought, do his will, whatever it may be? They're welcome to believe that but it's really rather ridiculous. Of course, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong (but I don't think so).
Ok, so then, on the other hand, if someone wishes to die instead of living the rest of their life bedridden, and/or in great pain which no one else could truly feel, then it's wrong to force someone to live how many more months or years like that. If we could all feel, even for a few seconds, just how bad the person's pain is, and how much they want to die, then euthanasia wouldn't be argued over at all and in fact could possibly be almost mandatory. I doubt it, but who knows, since we're not able to mindmeld with anyone else and feel their pain.
Ok, that's all. Don't wanna have another 12K rant here. (smiles, blows kiss to MJ)
>Despite what some people think, due to their religion, it's totally wrong to deny medical treatment to save someone's life. <
I don't agree with that. What if the treatment will save the person's life, but leave them a vegetable, or severely disabled? Shouldn't the person have a right to go quickly, rather than live a long life of pain?
They choose not to think (for whatever reasons) that perhaps god gave us all enough intelligence to create ways to help the sick and to heal them
Old story...
A man is caught in a flood. He sits on his roof saying "G-d will save me." A boat comes by, and offers to rescue him. He says, "No, G-d will save me." Of course, he falls off and drowns. When he gets to heaven, he asks G-d, "How come you didn't save me?" G-d replies, "Who do you think sent the boat?"
Or, to translate, to those who insist that G-d will heal them... Who do you think sent the doctor?
JG, there's more than enough of me to go around but after seeing MJ's pic I'm totally smitten by her for sure now! Of course, if she doesn't mind sharing.....
I'd rather not stand in the way of two people in love ;-)
Back to the topic... some time ago, I was reading a magazine (I am trying to remember if it was New Mobility or Mainstream) featuring an article about two young men with muscular distrophy. As you may know, muscular distrophy is a progressive disease. Both guys were getting close to that point where they would need a respirator to go on living.
One chose to not use the respirator and died. The other went on assisted ventilator. With the support of his family, he managed to cope with the practical aspects of the ventilator and so forth.
Margie, you're right. I should've realized that at the time I wrote it and amended it. I know I'd hate to have my life be forcibly saved if it meant my living in torture for years to come, especially if I was unable to voice my concerns to the contrary.
JG, MJ's not in love with me yet, but I'm working on it.
And actually the word is "dystrophy." Sorry, it's a bad habit to correct people. It comes from having a mom who does the same thing cuz she used to teach English. No offense meant.
None taken.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
*Drops a pin, outruns the reverberating echo, and goes to the next target*
huff! puff!
MJ, please! I can't take much more of this running around after you! I'd rather run around with you but you'll just have to wait on that, but it will happen, rest assured. (Barely cracks a smile, he's so winded.)
Further proof that I could wander down to the depths of Hell, and Mark would follow me.
Let's see what else I can do with that info...
But of course, Machiko. I'd follow you anywhere!
Wow! A whole year and no one's posted here in all that time! I can't believe that it's been well over a year since I suggested it, too.
Heh... you were in love with MJ since then! But that was before Mark Morgan stepped in and calmly announced his romance with Machiko as you and Jwb were fighting over her.
It's interesting looking over the old days, Pesti and MJ's rivalish banter, MarkN's shameless compliments and Religion-bashing... with Peter gone, a third era has begun...
It was the dawn of the third age of Religious Musings; ten days after the liberal/Peter war. The euthanasia board was a dream given form. It's goal: to prevent another flame war by creating a place where MarkN and Padawan could reminisce about old times peacefully. It's a port of call; home away from home for flamers, lurkers, flooders...and wanderers. MarkN and Padawan wrapped in about 100K of spinning web space, all alone in the night. It can be a dangerous place, but it's our last, best hope for peace.
This is the story of the first of the euthanasia boards. The year is 2001, the place is Euthanasia 1.
Ahh, shut up.
And so, the plan for peace ended before it had totally begun, not in a web of peace, but in the ashes of despair.
*Very wicked grin*
Morgan gave me a ring for my birthday. After the vendor (the clone of the first vendor, actually) insisted that he needed to buy a pretty ring for his wife.
Now that's what I call a trip...
And there shall be no more fighting over me, Mark2 and J (now that Padawan's mentioned it). No more. Ever.
Got it? Good.
Wow! Thanks, guys. I didn't expect anyone to bother looking at this board anymore, let alone to say anything right after I did again.
Well, in just the last month or so, I've since graciously conceeded losing MJ to Mark Morgan. He had the chance to go meet her in person (I don't), and besides he's better looking than me (gosh, that is sooo hard for me to admit!), so it was really no contest. I knew the best man would win, and he did. I knew nothing ever would develop beyond an online friendship between MJ and I, anyways. I never really was in love with her. It was just my flirtatiousness, as I've told her before. I'm very flirtatious, but only with the ones I can't have. Besides, there are three other beautiful lasses I flirt with at a buffet I frequent, and I even get a nice hug from them sometimes.
Padawan what's your real name, and do you post under any others? Just curious.
Jeffrey, that sounds a little like the opening to Battlestar Galactica, or at least reminds me of it. Not that I remember from way back when but only a few weeks ago when I taped some eps on Sci_fi. Man, why did I ever think that was a good show? I taped five eps but could only watch one and part an the next but they sucked so badly that I couldn't bear to watch anymore. The SPFX sucked, the acting sucked, the sets sucked. What was I smoking, thinking that I thought it was any good in my younger days?
Oh, and MJ and Mark, if you ever want to get married (and I'm not saying you are, but just in case), then just read these wise words from the mouth of babes. Mom emailed me this (formatting and [] mine), and yes, I know it belongs on the Humor board but oh, well.
HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHOM TO MARRY?
You got to find somebody who likes the same stuff. Like, if you like sports, she should like it that you like sports, and she should keep the chips and dip coming.
Alan, age 10
No person really decides before they grow up who they're going to marry. God decides it all way before, and you get to find out later who you're stuck with.
Kirsten, age 10
WHAT IS THE RIGHT AGE TO GET MARRIED?
Twenty-three is the best age because you know the person FOREVER by then. [Hmm, let's see. MJ's either almost 22, or is by now, so...]
Camille, age 10
HOW CAN A STRANGER TELL IF TWO PEOPLE ARE MARRIED?
You might have to guess, based on whether they seem to be yelling at the same kids.
Derrick, age 8
WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR MOM AND DAD HAVE IN COMMON?
Both don't want any more kids.
Lori, age 8
WHAT DO MOST PEOPLE DO ON A DATE?
Dates are for having fun, and people should use them to get to know each other. Even boys have something to say if you listen long enough.
Lynnette, age 8
On the first date, they just tell each other lies, and that usually gets them interested enough to go for a second date.
Martin, age 10
WHAT WOULD YOU DO ON A FIRST DATE THAT WAS TURNING SOUR?
I'd run home and play dead. The next day I would call all the newspapers and make sure they wrote about me in all the dead columns.
Craig, age 9
WHEN IS IT OKAY TO KISS SOMEONE?
When they're rich.
Pam, age 7
The law says you have to be eighteen, so I wouldn't want to mess with that.
Curt, age 6
The rule goes like this: If you kiss someone, then you should marry them and have kids with them. It's the right thing to do.
Howard, age 8
IS IT BETTER TO BE SINGLE OR MARRIED?
It's better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need someone to clean up after them.
Anita, age 9
HOW WOULD THE WORLD BE DIFFERENT IF PEOPLE DIDN'T GET MARRIED?
There sure would be a lot of kids to explain, wouldn't there?
Kelvin, age 9
HOW WOULD YOU MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK?
Tell your wife that she looks pretty even if she looks like a truck. [Of course, MJ will always be beautiful, so this one would never apply to her.]
Ricky, age 10
Mark, it was probably a takeoff on Babylon 5, not Battlestar Galactica, and Padawan is Johnny Veitch, IIRC.
MarkN, it sounds like your mom has been talking to Art Linkletter.
Apparently some people here have never watched Babylon 5. Now's as good a time as any to get into it (with the new pilot movie and series coming up and all). Scifi @ 7 pm weekdays eastern.
You know, ScottN, it really isn't nice to give other people's anmes on the Internet. I won't say if Scott were right or not, but ScottN, when you are sure of my name, don't post it. If I want everyone to know my real name, I'll tell it.
I am, however, male, MarkN. I occasionally use another name - I have several roles on the NitCentral RPGs, and sometimes post as The Spectre elsewhere.
Padawan, I would appreciate it if you would ask before using my name to post something.
Padawan, I'm sorry, I thought you had posted it on several other boards, when you first started using "Padawan Nitpicker". My apologies.
Otherwise, I'd never have posted (what I believed to be) your name.
Criminy, Mark2, you sure know how to inflate a girl's ego. You were never in love with me?
Nice to know I've been so loved in my life.
I'm osrry, but what does this love-fest have to do with the topic at hand? And isn't about time we had a second chapter here?
Oh, come on, MJ. You knew it all along. I've told you over the phone. Ok, I did have a mild crush on you (you wouldn't believe how many crushes on beautiful women such as yourself I've had), but that was it. Besides, do you honestly think it would've worked out between us had I been able to come see you, maybe move close to you and take you out on occasion, even though your Wicca was absolutely a non-issue to me? No, but it sure would've been nice to find out otherwise if there was any chance. BTW, the other day I saw a bumper that said, "Goddess Bless" (or maybe "Blessed") in white letters over a black background, and I thought of you.
>I'm osrry, but what does this love-fest have to do with the topic at hand? <
Since when do we actually stay on topic?
So... what is going to happen with Mark Morgan and Machiko? I would like to know,a nd I'm sure everyone else would, too.
Shut up, Brian. The on-topic discussion is OVER, we're using this board for other stuff now.
MarkN, I have a feeling you and I are going to get along very well.
Define "what is going to happen" if you please, Padawan.
Oh... never mind... I just wanted to know if and how it were going to continue. I'm just curious.
Well................................
I suppose that's for us to know, and you to ponder ceaselessly...
I'm so cruel.
Yes, you are. Look, MarkN and I are just interested, and you suddenly become all "Mind yer own business." MarkN and I can sit around and grumble.
Hey, at least what I said is nicer than what Morgan said when I first told him.
Gotta give me points for that.
Told him what? What did Morgan say?
Heh.
I can't repeat it, for one reason.
I am a lady, and a lady never curses.
Thank you, folks, you may now stop the sideline snickering.
I know I am joining this discussion late and perhaps some of you have already expressed these ideas, but here is my take on the subject.
Who the hell knows the future? Who knows whether or not a life is worth continuing at any point in time? Certainly not I. Sometimes I get so lonely and depressed because I have no one to call my own that all I can see is my life extending into old age and being all alone. Yes, I have been suicidal before. Suicidal people aren't the best persons to tell you what the future holds because all you can think about is the pain that you are in right now. But with time, and love, and perhaps therapy and medicine, people in severe emotional pain can recover and find some joy again.
So, how about people who are in severe physical pain or very disabled? Well, I am not one to say that they don't suffer, but even they have something to contribute to the world and to others. Maybe it is their wisdom, poetry, kindness, strength, knowledge, courage, example. And who are they to say that just because they are suffering they should get an easy out? I know that sounds harsh, but suffering is part of life and even though some people suffer more than others, it's not an excuse to quit.
What about people who have terminal illnesses? I don't know. I believe, and much of what I have read, seems to indicate that people with terminal illnesses kill themselves out of depression and from having to endure the pain. And that doctors should do more to relieve the pain. But I still don't believe in euthanasia. I know this might sound silly, but even the terminal ill have something to contribute, even if it is only to continue on with the message that life is worth fighting for. I think that is different than allowing people to die without medical intervention when it is clear that the end is near. That's different to me than actively killing someone who still has life in them.
I think that the whole thing, euthanasia, cheapens the value that we place on life. We lessen life when we say that some people;s lives just aren't worth living and it's better to be dead. From what I've read of the practice in the Netherlands, where doctor assisted suicide is legal, the practice is badly carried out. Doctors sometimes practice euthanasia to hurry an old person along so that they can have the hospital bed. I know that's a pretty shocking accusation, so I'll try to find the source, it was in Reader's Digest I think.
Anyway, I don't mean to sound glib or be a Pollyanna. I don't want to discount the suffering that some people do experiance. But one of the three things that abideth is hope.
And when we start saying that some people's lives aren't worth living, where do we draw the line?
Merry
no one can be safe from the government.
What are you talking about? The government doesn't decide to euthanise people. Such decisions are made by the person, or their family.
Politicians support whatever is popular with the constiuents. If painting yourself green and neon blue and dancing to the Macarena was popularized tomorrow, they'd support it.
Bloody foolish lot, they are.
idly wondering what Peter's doing back on RM, after being banned from it, but in too good of a mood to make a big deal out of it.
MarkN, I have a feeling you and I are going to get along very well.
Oh, you think so, eh? Well, let me tell you something, Mr. Presumptuous.... you're absolutely right! I mean I guess so. Oh, why not? I could always use more friends. All the ones I've already used have wised up to me and deserted me so now I need more to use. You can email MJ and ask her for my ICQ number and/or email address if you want to talk more than just here, but ICQ's your better bet cuz I hardly check my emails and take forever to reply to them.
And Paddy, I'm not really interested where MJ and MarkM are headed in their relationship, so you'll just have to grumble in solitude. In fact, I'm very happy for them and from the first time she joked about him stealing her away from me, I guess over a year ago now, I just knew they'd get together sooner or later, and then when he went to visit her I knew that cinched it. They make a great pair. A pair of what, I dunno, but I know it's a great pair, nonetheless. *S*
http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/interrogatory032801.shtml
Intresting article on topic from a liberal viewpoint agaist the topic at hand.
*Rolls her eyes* Are we all done attempting to dissect and predict the direction that the relationship between MJ and Morgan is headed? 'Cause I think that that direction is something that should remain between her and him. Not her and him..........and the rest of the peanut gallery.
Just my 2¢.
::You might as well say it is not the government's fault that millions of abortions occur every year when they legalised it, or not the government's fault that executions go on, when they allowed it too.:: Peter
That is the same kind of argument people use about God and evil existing, and it doesn't work with God or that either.
::They pay less and less attention to the people all the time.:: Peter
If they don't listen in America, to the people, they don't get elected again.
BTW, Machiko dear, there are those of us who care what happens to you.
Peter, Mark doesn't have to be a serial killer for people to worry about Machiko. You see crimes and suffering in quite a different way than the goverment does, I hope you realize. Therein lies the difference.
::They could not justify allowing people to die from abortions or euthanasia in order to give them more freedom.:: Peter
Oh, but they do justify it. The reasons themselves are up for debate, but the fact is that it can be justified.
Jwb, I assure you, there's absolutely no reason to worry about Machiko. I'd go on at length as to why this is so, or you can just take my word for it.
We're just interested, we like to know about people we communicate with daily, particularly if it involves a thread that's been going on for a long time.
Thank you, Padawan.
You're welcome, my enemy/friend.
Oh, I'm touched...you all care what happens to me.
And no one's worried about what I might do to Morgan. I'm sure he'll feel all macho after I call him tonight.
In case anyone's interested, I've been giving him summaries of this discussion. Most of it he just laughs at (and then tells me I'm a mouthy brat).
As crotchety and energy sucking as Morgan is, he's gonna be fine. We don't need to worry about him. We know you're not as bad as you say you are. I can feel it, myself. Remember?
"Crotchety and energy sucking"?
Excuse me. My mind went gutter bound. Must find it. I will return when I have restored it to its former pristine glory.
Not really. Let's just say there were some unintentional double entendres.
I don't know about the unintentional part. I think J did it just to make me go find my pure and innocent mind somewhere in the dregs of the gutter.
I will spend a month in the same state as each one of you
A state of sanity? I would welcome that.
Come on over, Peter. I'd like to introduce you to the guys I work with...most of whom not only sling dozens of tires around daily, but most of whom also like me.
And I refuse to explain. So nyah nyah nyah...
If you could stomach my state's politics for a month without going insane, you deserve to live here.
What part of the U.S. are you visiting, Peter?
Merry
Okay, Peter, I'll be nice. To a point. All I'll tell you is that the key words are "crotch" and "sucking". If you can't figure out the rest, you really are naive. (I'd've thought the double entedres would've been just as self-evident in Britain, as they are here in the States.)
You'll be happy to know Machiko that I have it's "a none of my business" attitude about what goes on 'twixt you and Mark M. Your lives are your lives. (Gotta admit though, this has made for interesting reading. )
Boy! You are naive!
Scott N: I may have an answer for an earlier post of yours (that's may). To refresh your memory
The reason it is outlawed is because they know that most people who commit suicide are not in the right mind or condition.
But then, the verdict at the trial for attempted suicide should always be "Not Guilty by reason of Insanity".
(sorry I haven't discovered how to italicizes and change colors of quotes.) The reason, I think, is to allow good Samaritans to Pull despondent people off of bridges and such because they are preventing a crime. I'm not sure, but it seems to make sense to me. Yeah, if the attempted suicide person is jailed I think it would be committed, not jailed.
Peter who?, What are the last posts talking about?
Peter Jennings.
William, what I asked was "How do you prosecute someone for a successful suicide attempt?" (or something to that effect.
The point is that making suicide illegal is dumb. If the person fails, then there's no crime. If the person succeeds, there's no criminal to prosecute. Attempted suicide is another matter, and as you pointed out, the correct verdict should always be "Not guilty by reason of insanity", which makes laws against attempted suicide dumb too.
When you have unenforceable laws, or laws that by definition will never result in a conviction, it leads to contempt for the law.
Oh, and we should probably follow up on Chapter III. Moderator, maybe you should remove the post buttons on Chapter I and II?
Maybe there should be a law that forces competency tests upon attempted suicides?
What, you can't try to commit suicide unless you're sane?
"Sorry dude, you're crazy. Can't try to kill yourself. You, on the other hand are normal. Have fun, but we'll bust you if you fail!"
Yeah Scott like in Catch 22. You get a license to commit suicide if you can prove your sane (of course applying for the license means your crazy and the application is denied, but you could if you were sane )
My point was any law against suicide is not to deter people committing suicide, but to aid the person who thinks Billy-Joe is going for a swim in the Tallahassee River . [Old song reference from back in the day {unlike the eternal night}, Billy-Joe commits suicide by jumping off the Tallahassee bridge.]
Yeah, I know that is silly and I reaching, but your too right for a coherent point. We don't have laws to protect pedestrians who hold everybody back while the red hand is glowing.
P.S. (Do I use to many [It's a pity I think like this {when I think at all}] parenthesis.)
The problem with competency tests is that, by the time a person who attempted suicide but didn't accomplish it (I refuse to use the word "succeed" because it makes it sound like something positive) recovers they may have reconsidered and there would be nothing for any such test to discover. I do know this from personal experience. Depression also might be difficult to uncover in a mental competency test, since many depressed people can force themselves to function normally.
William Berry:sorry I haven't discovered how to italicizes and change colors of quotes.
Type a backslash: \
Type the word "red" : red
Type the open bracket: {
Type the text you want to be red: Your text.
Type the closing bracket: }
Instead of "red", type "b" for boldface.
Type "i" for italics
Type "u" for underline.
Type "-1" to make the text one grade smaller.
Type "-2" to make the text two grades smaller.
Type "green", "blue", etc. for different colors.
Also, the site won’t recognize paragraph indentations; it just aligns everything to the left. To indent paragraphs, I type three dashes before the text (like this: ---- ), and format them in WHITE. That makes them invisible on the white background.
You can use multiple format tags. Simply put all the opening tags together at the beginning, and the appropriate number of closing brackets at the end.
For example, when I write the humorous headings to my nits, I make them red, bold, and 2 sizes smaller.
So in order to make "I like the writing on Voyager" into
I like the writing on Voyager,
Type \, then b, then {
Then \, then red, then {
Then \b, then –2, then {
Then type "I like the writing on Voyager"
Then type }}}
You can even give a small piece of the text a tag that the rest of it doesn’t have.
In the above example, type , then i, then { before the word "writing", then the closing bracket after the word, and you get
I like the writing on Voyager,
For more info on formatting, William, click the "formatting" link in the lefthand column under "Documentation", and cut and paste that page into your harddrive.
You like the writing on "Voyager?"
LOL, Mike. The example I used was meant to be ironic.
::but to aid the person who thinks Billy-Joe is going for a swim in the Tallahassee River:: William Barry
Billy Joe McCallister jumped off the Talahatchie Bridge if I am hearing the song right.
Yup, that's right...it was...
the day that my mother socked it to the Harper Valley, P.T.A....
No, that's not it...it was...
the day the music dieeeeeed...
No, that's not it either...it was...
the day that Billy Joe McCallister jumped off the Talahatchie Bridge!
Luigi, could you run that by us again, please? You went a little too fast for me to catch it all.
No, no, Mike, it's
"...the day that Bil-ly Joe McCallister jumped ah-off the Talahatchie Bri-idge!
Ya gotta get the inflections right, dude! And remember that "Talahatchie bridge" is sung in a deeper voice. Gosh, dude, get with the program. Sheesh!
Mea culpa. I I have to go listen to Clarence Clearwater's There's a bathroom on the right.
As Jimmy Hendrix said excuse me, while I kiss this guy.
By the way Jwb, that is Berry, as in straw, blue, or dingle.
I'm sorry. Spank me.
NO-NO! STOP--AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Why, Mike, I never thought of you as one who likes to be spanked...hmmm....a note to pass onto your future lady or ladies...
(Sorry, I just have a really dirty mind in the mornings...)
Tell me more about those unhealthy images of Mark Morgan, Miss Jenkins...
Me have unhealthy images of Morgan?
What hole did you crawl out of?
I haven't imagined him in the state of supreme unhealth (death), though I can imagine why you'd think so, with this board topic.
Unless you're wanting other details? I don't kiss and tell.
Sorry.
Could we please just let this subject die.
I will try not to assume you meant another little double-entendre there.
Peter.
Waitaminute...suicide is wrong, doctor assisted suicide is wrong...but you, Anon, are advocating that we just stand back and let the thread die painfully, without the painlessness that euthanasia would provide?
You should be shot!
Hmph...;)
Sorry, Mike. You'll just have to find someone else with which to satiate your perverted proclivities.
I don't think he ever looked to you for it, Mark.
Peter.
Gosh, I hope not, but I ain't worried. That's why I was joking about it.
Don't worry, Mark. If I decide to dabble in the perverted arts, I'll find someone else.