Anyone else just as absolutely confused about Samantha and her abduction as I am? Oh, well, thirty more minutes to see if there is any real "closure".

IMO, the best episode since "Duane Barry". No nits, but man, what an episode.

So what happened to all the "Samantha clones"? And that woman CSM brought to Mulder that night in the coffee shop? And how come Jeffrey didn't remember his "sister"?

Like they'll ever tell us....

Seven fricking years and it turned out to be sky spirits. Darn those tattoed freaks to heck and Prince Phil. So who were the Bee people, the daughter, the first bounty hunter, it was just some spirits who take children and put them in wood nympth land! Well, I guess we know what religion Mulder isn't now. Unless atheist jews regularly talk about an afterlife, God during mistywoods sermons.

Mulder says that the starlight is billions of years old by the time it reaches Earth, but there are no stars that are billions of light years away that you can see with the naked eye. Also, Samantha's diary uses the word "lay" instead of "lie" (a pet peeve of mine).

Thank you Mandy for bringing up that woman who was brought to Maulder that night at the coffee shop! I thought SHE was Samatha!!! And by the way, what episode and season was that? I always thought that she was actually found.
Also, I can't believe that all those children are dead, yet no bodies are found. I mean what killed them, and why are they really there??? And why were they taken? Was it mentioned. I'm still trying to fiqure out why Amber Lyn Lampiere was taken. Just so they didn't become victim to that Santa Claus maniac. Yet, they are still dead? this doesn't make sense!

It made no sense to me, either, but I thought that was because I was attempting to write out a warm-up routine for percussion at the time.

I liked CSM's referring to an operation ... continuity to "Two Fathers-One Son." I also liked what Scully did with her tongue when CSM said Samantha's dead. Turns out he wasn't lying after all eh. So Mulder is just going to accept that she's in a better place ... what now for his quest of "The Truth is Out There"?

In "Two Fathers", Cassandra tells Scully that the woman Mulder met in "Redux" (in the coffee shop) wasn't Samantha. ("That wasn't her," she said, although she also said Samantha was still out there. Whatever...I guess from her perspective -- and anyone except Mulder's at this point -- she would still be "out there", having disappeared from a mental hospital. IF Cassandra even knew that much.)

As for the clones, there's no reason to think CGB & Friends couldn't still have had Samantha's DNA on file from the tests mentioned here. And there is some reason to think they would, given the records about her in "Paper Clip".

Incidentally, I should clarify what I said earlier about this being TXF's best episode since "Duane Barry". It was probably one of the most involving and moving episodes since that earlier one, imo, but "best" is obviously a loaded statement, given the diversity of TXF episodes. It probably wasn't better than, say, "Clyde Bruckman", in a lot of ways. Still, as much as I've liked a great many mytharc episodes (as I consider this one to be), this one has got to be near the top. The final act was utterly fantastic, and I've never been as moved by TXF (and rarely by a TV show) before.

To be fair, it owed a lot to movies like "The Sixth Sense" (and earlier films as well), but I liked "Closure" a great deal.

And S. Wong -- the episode continued to refer to Samantha's abduction as unknown in origin. (Remember, Mulder said she was returned to CGB Spender "after" the abduction.) Who did the actual abduction (the military, aliens, etc) wasn't confronted in this episode. So, hey, the Truth is still out there.

Oh, and Slinky Frog, Mulder refers to the "picnic" area as being a better place. Better than being returned to CGB, better than being killed by that maniac in a field -- sure, they're dead, but it could still be "better". After all, it was an innocents' paradise. I found the entire sequence flawless.

And the idea of Samantha being in paradise, free of paranoia and the hurtfulness of the world, but still desiring to see the brother she may not have even remembered (and certainly didn't when the starlight took her)...for some reason, that really hits me on some level. I can see a lot of people really hating this episode, especially if *they* were hoping for an explanation. But I wasn't necessarily, and I've rarely seen better: it was a true standout.

Oh, and anyone have any idea about that music of the picnic sequence? What was it?

Hm. I still think there's something wrong here. If Mulder has closure on Samantha, what's left to reveal at the end of this season (likely the end of the show)? And how are they going to make any more movies? This has got to be a false alarm. What Mulder saw probably doesn't mean what he think it did.

But maybe I'm just being too cynical.

One last thing, I swear (and I should've noticed this sooner). S.Wong: CSM/CGB wasn't referring to "Two Fathers/One Son" when he spoke of his operation, he was talking about the procedure we saw him undergo in "Amor Fati", the final part of the season premiere, where he got Super Powers from Mulder. At least, assuming he didn't undergo any other surgery in the interim.

And...uh, I liked this episode.

Chris Ashley: assuming a finale or movie doesn't go the standalone route (the finale won't, but Carter's saying another movie might), there's still plenty to do with the alien invasion/civil war, Krycek's hold over Skinner and growth of power, CGB's mental powers from "Amor Fati", the New Consortium, and the unresolved questions about Samantha's abduction (e.g. what happened in between Samantha being taken from the Stratego game and being "returned" to CGB Spender's family?) An end to the "where is Samantha now?" question doesn't mean a necessary end to the series. But I do hope that this *is* the end. It would rob much of this episode's considerable power as well as cause much grumbling in fandom ("Samantha AGAIN?" -- which a lot of people said to this episode) if they decide to re-raise the issue.

That said, I do think the show could do much worse than have "Closure" as a finale. Although it wouldn't work quite as well in that regard: it doesn't really tie up *any* of the above threads. It just ties up one, in a powerful way. OK, I'll try to stop replying now...it's just hard to contain my enthusiasm about this episode! (As I've probably shown in my recent "Voyager" board postings, that doesn't happen too often.)

I loved this episode. I was moved when Mulder met Samantha's ghost and finally had his closure about what happened to her. I was wondering why he could see that psychic's kid (I forget the psychic's name at the moment,) but the psychic couldn't, but then later I figured maybe it was cuz he was going thru what Mulder did earlier, not being able to let his kid's memory go and still thinking he's alive somewhere. But if Mulder could see the boy's ghost and Sam's, then the father should've been able to see him, too. That was the psychic's kid's ghost who led Mulder to Sam's diary and the gathering place of the kids' ghosts, wasn't it? Anyway, great episode all around. Definitely ranks right up there in anyone's Top Ten Favorite X-Files eps, or should.

"The Forget-Me-Knot" was a horrible episode of "The Avengers", filled with lame direction and lazy writing. But since it was the first Tara King, and the last Mrs. Peel, it was IMPORTANT.

That's what this episode was. A horrible one. The direction, though, was fine. The writing was horrible--remember when "The X-Files" was a real, crisp show? Why do I now dread any episode written by Chris Carter?

Things I Liked
*CSM (even if it wasn't near his best)
*Jeffrey (made me hope that Chris Owens would pop up--"Agent Mulder, stay away from my mother! Whoops, she's dead! J-just get away from me!"
*Pillar (who I thought was a major con man for two-thirds of the show) being revealed as an extension of Mulder.

But what the heck happened to continuity? Why are the spirits forcing the parents to write incriminating letters? Why do they write "No one shoots at Santa Claus"? Just where the heck are the kids?! Has the rest of the seasons about aliens been all a dream? Why did numerous bit players say that Mulder's sister was still alive?

BG: Thanks for answering about the woman brought to Maulder at the coffee shop. Now, my question, who exactly is she? Could she be a Samatha Clone? Why was she brought to Maulder? To keep him off the case?
I also understand for your enthusiasm for the episode, BG. I too, was rivited! I love the way you described your review of it.

Though I agree, that since tests were still done on Samatha, there is the possibility that her clones were still out there.

But MikeC. brought up a good point. Why were the spirits making them write those "No one shoots at Santa Claus" and write those letters. And why bring up the Santa Claus guy, when he had nothing to do with Amber, Samatha, or where they are? In fact, why did Amber come to her mother to say 74, so to lead Maulder and Scully to the Santa Claus guy and the other buried children, yet it didn't find Amber, the prison women's son, or Samatha?
And how is it that buriel ground has some kind of connection to Amber's disappearance, Samatha's disappearance, when to me the children killed by the Santa Claus man, and the children with no bodies found seems to different things all together.
And I also asked the question, where are they? And why?

I also still feel, this is not the end of the Samatha thing. Yet, Maulder does feel closure finally, and I feel for him, but he seems to be in a drugged state, and for some reason, I think there are outside influences driving him to it. To keep him, STILL, from investigating further.
Why take these children, and not leave bodies? How can they be dead, with their bodies with them, if you know what I'm asking here?
What connection does Amber, The psychic's and the prison lady's sons have to do with Samatha's disappearane?

I must admit, I haven't been able to watch any of last season's episodes, so I am lost of what happen, to each character, but just these two episodes still don't ring right with me.

Also, what exactly did Maulder's Mother's spirit whisper to him, while he was sleeping? I didn't get an answer in the rest of the episode. All I saw, was that he overslept, and his mother whispering in his ear, was the reason?

Where was Skinner? Mitch Pelogi was listed in the credits.

Awful episode! Since when has X-Files swallowed this new age-y starlight ••••?

I understand that maybe Mulder believes that the "Samantha" he met was not the genuine article, but don't you think a reference to her (and to the other clones) was in order?

During his opening narration, Mulder reflects that "The eyes of the dead were closed" in Santa's Field O'Bodies. Thing is, the dead were decomposed down to skeletons. They had no eyes left to close.

Did the TV in Mulder's hotel room just fade out quietly? I didn't see Mulder or Piller move to shut it off; I didn't hear a 'click'.

During the 'seance' in Samantha's old house, the light streaming through the windows seems awfully bright for the dead of night in an abandoned military base.

The entries in Samantha's diary are all undated, but Fox somehow knows that a specific one was written in 1979.

You know, I hate to ask, but don't Mulder and Scully have some actual work to do? (This nit could be applied to dozens of episodes.)

As for a critical appraisal of this episode ... don't ask.

[[Did the TV in Mulder's hotel room just fade out quietly? I didn't see Mulder or Piller move to shut it off; I didn't hear a 'click'. ]] Shane: I had my tv's closed captioning going during this scene, and it was wierd, but the closed captioning was also showing quotes by those on the tv, and then the captioning mentions 'Maulder clicks off tv'. With that knowledgeable note, I thought I did hear a click. Now, without the captioning, you would think Maulder and Pillar walked by the tv and did nothing, while all of a sudden, there is no more noise coming from the tv set.

Would a tv station or cable channel be airing "Planet of the Apes" at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning?

I don't know what to make of this episode.
Re: the "Samantha" at the coffee shop--
Clones are unique individuals. They don't inherit the memories of the one they are cloned from, and yet this "Samantha" remembered her life with Fox and her mother. I know they've tried to dismiss her as just a clone, but I'm not so sure I buy it. Either that or it's just been poorly handled.

This episode was not "closure" for me.

Hans,

Actually about 2 weeks ago TNT showed Planet of the Apes at starting at 1am. It would be to about that point at 3 something in the morning. I noticed that when I was watching it last night and had to laugh. Score one for the creators, I guess.

Did you notice the street name where Samantha and Spender's handprints were discovered? Albatross. Subtle.

Is it me, or are they having a lot more California stories ever since they moved production to CA in season 6?

-12-

The "Planet of the Apes" thing was fine...but it could have been done a lot more subtly.

I believe Pileggi appears in the "Previously on the X-Files" montage.

Say, just who was that guy talking to Scully about Mulder, and why wasn't he consulted...oh, about seven years ago!

BG. You're right ... sorry for the error. I meant that episode when Mulder was in the dream-land and Fowley died.

BG. You're right ... sorry for the error. I meant that episode when Mulder was in the dream-land and Fowley died.

I was mildly disappointed.

When Piller said there was a connection between Amber-Lynn and Samantha, and then S's diary revealed she had lost her memory, I thought maybe Samantha was Amber-Lynn's mother. No such luck, I guess.

The bit with Mulder in ghost-land was nice, though. My brother died suddenly, and when I dream of him that's what it's like.

I don't know that I like the idea of Samantha being Amber-Lynn's mother; I don't think it worked all that well with Melissa and Dana a few years ago.

As for the concerns MikeC brings up...yeah, the episode didn't tie up exactly what happened in Part 1 with the mysterious writing angle. It bothered me a little last night and bothers me a lot more today. I can't fault what I felt was a powerful episode for leaving some loopholes, but admittedly, this is a pretty big loose end. (I suspect some of the original story was scrapped.)

(As for "Santa" being unnecessary: I'm sure we were meant to assume from his watching her that he *would* have abducted Amber Lynn like he did the other girls, and would've killed her, as her father saw. The spirits came in and transformed her into starlight to prevent this from occurring.)

But what I don't buy is people hating the episode because it was too new age-y, or the idea of good spirits doesn't feel X-Files-ish. I just don't think that's a valid criticism; certainly if there's one thing episodes like "Sanguinarium" have done, it's opened me up to the idea that TXF need not be "just" aliens and conspiracies. And I have to admire the inherent beauty of the whole idea of the spirits saving the doomed children from horrible fates, transforming them into eternal children, with their hopes and dreams apparently still living (as Samantha hugging Mulder showed). There's a bittersweetness to it that totally blew me as a viewer away. And Mulder realizing this, is able to walk away from this powerful visage, away from his sister's arms, and back into the "real world" -- new Agey? Perhaps. But one of the most powerful hours of television I've ever had the pleasure to watch.

...oh, and I think Mrs. Mulder was still saying "April Base" to Mulder in his sleep. She was saying April something, in any event.

What's Mulder's motivation now?

((I will not read any posts, until I have watched the episode, which I have taped, and can not watch, until I have a day off))
ARG.

This may be a bit of an injoke, given Mulder's love of porn, but the little girl's name, Amber Lynn, is also the name of a porn star.

I found watching this episode difficult due to Anthony Healed(sp?). I like the actor, but just last week he played a real a-hole judge on The Practice, my favorite show (X-Files is my 2nd fave) so I found it hard to sympathize.

Brian Webber: ahhh, so THAT'S where I remembered him from! I KNEW I had seen that guy not long ago, and I found it VERY distracting. Oh MAN, thank you.

I don't necessarily mind the New Age stuff (maybe it's to make up for "Signs and Wonders", tilting the balance, perhaps?). What I do mind is bait-and-switch.

1. Aliens kidnap Samantha Mulder (standard party line)
2. No wait--there are no aliens! Government conspiracy! (fifth season revision)
3. Or is it the work of a serial killer? (brief fourth season thought)
4. Maybe she's alive. (numerous tidbits)
5. Maybe she's grown-up, being raised by the CSM. (a recent idea)
6. Wait--she's dead...or is she? (what the creators call "closure")

Note, these are the same creators that took great pains to show us:

*The Cigarette-Smoking Man died in "Redux"
*Alex Krycek died in "Terma"
*Mulder died in "Gethsemane"
*Mulder's sister lived ("Colony")
Etc., Etc., Etc.

My last comment: In "Herrenvolk", the CSM has the Bounty Hunter heal Mrs. Mulder, as Mulder is so valuable to the equation. Now, she's dead, and no one seems to bat an eye. Does this mean that her purpose is done or that Mulder's purpose is done?

MikeC: haha, true. And Mulder's vision in "The Blessing Way" STRONGLY suggested that Samantha was still alive. I still find myself able to forgive this episode for these admittedly strong faults, but I'm less able to forgive the creators for seven years of misguidance. Would it really have been *that* hard to pick a fate for Samantha (to be revealed later on) once the running storyline started?

Ah well, if the only way to get across the inherent beauty of this ending was to violate continuity, I can on this occasion (and ONLY because it was this good) forgive it. Let's hope they can piece the fragmented mytharc back together at least somewhat before the end, though, eh?

(Also to MikeG: I thought CSM has a line in "Amor Fati" that suggested that Mulder's long alluded-to purpose was coming to fruition there. That is to say, maybe the whole operation deal *was* the purpose? Or maybe Chris Carter forgot?)

IMHO, I think we are still supose to wonder if Samantha is alive or dead. We may never know if this is really what happened to her, or any of the half a dozen possible soulutions to the Samantha mystery. Perhaps the "spirits" just implied that she is in "heaven" just to make Mulder feel better. She could be working as an actress in Hollywood for all we know.

Perhaps she got married and moved to Kentucky. If that was the case, it would explain why Mulder avoids Kentucky like the plauge. (The 30ish Samantha from Redux looked a bit like an older version of someone I went to high school with. You don't think...Nahhh. It's too out there for the X-Files.)

BG, the music to this episode is Moby's "My Weakness." The band Moby also did the theme to Tomorrow Never Dies and has recently had their song "Porcelain" slightly used in the trailer for The Beach. Speaking of music to The X-Files, the music from episodes "Redux I" and "Musings of the Cigarette-Smoking Man," as well as Millennium's various overtures and interludes, are ones of personal covetousness. Are there any means of acquiring these scores? I am fully aware that they were composed and conducted by Mark Snow. Thank you.

My comments are as numerically proceeds:
1) When I pressed the info button on my remote controller during this episode, it read, "As Mulder continues to hunt for clues to his sister's disappearance, he finds himself in an urgent race against time to discover her ultimate fate." Those last three words tend to promote a continuation.
2) Is Special Agent Dana Scully affiliated with a cult? She is always wearing attire that is all-black or a majority thereof.
3) The semi-psychic/clairvoyant man refusing to accept his son's "death" could always return by the conclusion of the series with startling information regarding Fox's sister. This is facetiously intended, but I once perused a one-page comic strip in a previous TV guide that provided a conclusion to the series that killed two birds with one stone in that the sexual tension between the protagonists and Samantha's abduction. The solution: Special Agent Dana Scully is Fox's sister. Someone get out the banjo (:

I realize this may be off-topic, but I have no doubt a number of you have noticed that I have not been actively contributing to NitCentral.Com, particularly for a moderator of four separate message boards. Free time is a luxury not in my possession. I sporadically add nitpicks and comments to sub-sections, such as Console Games. However, there shall definitely be a prolific compendium of nitpicks and comments scattered throughout this forum emanating from me in a short time.

I don't know if any of you have figured this out yet, but the series is OVER. From here on out, there is nothing but fun stories, leftovers, etc. BTW, I loved the episode and have closure.

Just for a second, let's accept the entire premise of the episode (I know, I was chanting "willing suspension of disbelief" through the entire ep. too.).

But IF the entire premise is given (never mind the fact that it runs entirely contrary to the religious truth known by millions of people, and the laws of physics known by even more people), I still have difficulty buying the fact that it extends to Samantha. These "spirits" have been "rescuing" innocent children from being horribly killed. Accepted. However, Samantha Mulder was fourteen. No longer a child. And, after everything that was done to her, no longer innocent. Mulder's "vision" bears this out. He's in a field, inhabited entirely by children who were what, six, seven? Maybe eight at the most? And then out of no-where comes his teen-aged sister?

If they're going to destroy continuity, at least they might do it in a manner which is consistant with itself.

Incidently, there's absolutlely no way that the girl who hugged Mulder would have grown up to look like the actress who plays the Samantha clones.

Mabey the Big Mushroom at Brown Mountain in getting really desperate to make Mulder relax so he can be digested?

Why have all these people said that Samantha was alive. C.G.B., Cassandra Spender. Where exactly did the feds get that tissue sample in "Paper Clip"? And why did Mr Alien-I-can't-be-killed-even-with-a-sharp-thing-in-my-neck Bounty Hunter say that Samantha was still alive? Did he lie to Mulder? Does he have no respect for little human Mulder or something? Why tell him that she's still alive.

I SEE DEAD PEOPLE!!

Scully finds the burnt document in the rubbish bin. Don't you think the previous investigation (just after Mrs M died) would have turned that up?

Maybe I missed something important from a previous episode, or from this one, but the big question left in my mind at the end was: WHY did Mulder's mother kill herself?

Did anyone else besides me keep hearing "Anne Boleyn" instead of "Amber Lynn"?!

Scully really came across as a scientist to me in this episode. I almost started a count of how many times she said, "your sister" instead of "Samantha". My boyfriend, a design engineer, is just the same - always refers to "my daughter," "my son," "my brother," (he has two, and it drives me mad trying to work out which one he's talking about!) instead of using their names. Is this a scientist thing?

And I echo a comment made earlier: where did the bodies of the children taken by the sky spirits go? Why would spirits take a body?

Why did numerous bit players say that Mulder's sister was still alive?

Exactly! Let's see:

"End Game" - The bounty hunter tells Mulder than Samantha is still alive.

"The Blessing Way" - As I recall, Bill Mulder tells Mulder in the dream sequence that his sister isn't "here" (meaning dead)

Fight the Future: The WMM discloses a great deal yet never hints that Samantha is dead

"One Son" - CSM suggests that Mulder will see Samantha if he joins the Syndicate at El Rico Air Force Base in WV

Why would so many varied members of the conspiracy lead Mulder on? All that has done is fuel him to continue his search for the truth. And lest you think that any of that •••• Chris Carter writes about "Mulder being important to the equation" is actually valid, this is the same conspiracy that (1) connived to have the X-Files shut down in "The Erlenmeyer Flask", (2) tried to frame Mulder for the murder of his father ("Anasazi"), (3) was willing to kill M & S outright ("Paper Clip"), tried to shut down his work by discrediting him ("Gethsemane"), (4) tried to finger him as a mole in the FBI before they settled for Skinner ("Redux"/"Redux II"), (5) connived *again* to get the X-Files shut down ("The End"), and (6) abducted Scully to demoralize Mulder (Fight the Future). The point is, they've tried numerous times to stop Mulder's work. Conceivably, their best tool would have been to convince him that Samantha is dead! (Esp. after two attempts to show him a clone version of her failed to convince him.) Yet they never use this tool; instead, they go 180 degrees opposite and TELL HIM a LIE, namely, that she LIVES, which fuels his quest for EIGHT YEARS! WHY????? (This is what frustrates me so much about this series. In the short term, it's unbeatable, with great writing, character development, cinematography, etc. Yet Chris Carter and Frank Spotnitz have shown themselves unable to write a cohesive, long-term story arc without creating numerous contradictions, inconsistencies, and illogical reversals.)

Esp. after two attempts to show him a clone version of her failed to convince him.

He seemed pretty ready to believe it was her in Redux.

Okay-- so the general impressions we had of Mulder's mother and Samantha are the following--

1. Mulder's mother had a "Sophie's Choice" type of moment once upon a time and chose Samantha to be experimented upon.
2. She's had an affair with the CSM.
3. Samantha later escaped the military base, checked in at a hospital and disappeared right before the CSM and the "goons" arrived.

Given that, what did Mulder's mother know about that development, if at all (was she told that Samantha escaped and then disappeared) and how would she know this would be in relation to the current girl's disappearance?

Mulder's mother chooses to burn all of the Samantha pictures--why?

Did Mulder's mother know that the adult Samantha that visited then was a clone? Did she or did she not?

There's just so many questions that beg to ask why did this happen except maybe Chris Carter (and maybe the big wigs at Fox) wanted the Samantha story wrapped up. It's oddly juxtaposed and seems to contradict what many non-CSM lying people told Mulder that Samantha was still alive (well except as one of many clones of course, working on the corn, etc.)