100 Heroes...100 Villains.

First of all, I thought the special itself was rock-solid. Lots of classy people (not just your Star of the Week Talking Head)--guys like Frank Langella, Robert Englund, Celeste Holm, Kirk Douglas, Christopher Reeve. Beautiful.

Now for the list.

50. Maximus, "Gladiator." Call me crazy, but when Maximus makes the list and not Judah Ben-Hur, I'm annoyed.
50. Alonzo Harris, "Training Day." I'm always against having recent films make the list, just because posterity will decide the answer.
49. Andrew Beckett, "Philadelphia." The first of (too many) real folks making the list, Beckett sort of deserves it, I guess.
49. Auric Goldfinger, "Goldfinger." Now we're talking! The first REAL pick.
48. Terminator, "Terminator II." Shoulda just went for the real first Terminator.
48. Verbal Kint, "The Usual Suspects." This is just a tribute to Keyser Soze, isn't it?
47. Karen Silkwood, "Silkwood." Say it with me, movie fans: "HUH?!"
47. Tony Camonte, "Scarface." Decent pick, but why did they have to pick all 3 '30s gangsters?
46. Batman. Good, solid, unspectacular pick. Just like Michael Keaton himself.
46. Hans Gruber, "Die Hard." I like this pick, but the child in me likes Alan Rickman in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves" better.
45. Zorro. Zorro is a pretty cool guy, but I think his image comes from TV. It's a pity that "The Mask of Zorro II" was never made.
45. The Joker, "Batman." Certainly a great villain, but a great MOVIE villain?
44. Popeye Doyle, "The French Connection." I kinda want Bullitt instead. Good pick.
44. Baby Jane, "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" I'll take it.
43. Moses, "The Ten Commandments." It's kind of tacky to have Moses as a Great Movie Hero. I'd take Judah Ben-Hur.
43. Regina Giddens, "The Little Foxes." On 3, 1-2-3: "HUH?!"
42. Father Flanagan, "Boys Town." Nice pick.
42. Tom Powers, "Public Enemy." Good pick, probably the best of the '30s gangsters (but Cody Jarrett tops them all).
41. Mr. Chips, "Goodbye Mr. Chips." Robert Donat won an Oscar for this over Gable and Jimmy Stewart.
41. Joan Crawford, "Mommie Dearest." I don't like giving a hatchet-job like Mommie Dearest respect. Nasty slam at Joan Crawford too.
40. Serpico, "Serpico." Eh. The real Frank Serpico was a courageous guy to be sure, but as I've said, this is a MOVIE HERO List.
40. Freddy Krueger, "A Nightmare on Elm Street." Yep. Now, if Michael Myers just made the list...
39. Lassie. Excellent pick, but Lassie is more of a TV star. I'd consider Old Yeller.
39. Cruella de Ville, "101 Dalmatians." Good pick. I think Disney villains were used just right in this list.
38. The Tramp. Um, does Chaplin have to make every list?
38. Little Caesar, "Little Caesar." I would have taken Johnny Rocco instead from "Key Largo."
37. Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Star Wars." Too many Star Wars characters, but they made the right choices I guess.
37. Harry Lime, "The Third Man." Good.
36. Rooster Cogburn, "True Grit." Standing in for John Wayne...I would have considered Books from "The Shootist," Sergeant Stryker from "The Sands of Iwo Jima," or Tom from "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" as well.
36. Frank Booth, "Blue Velvet." Does the average moviegoer light up when they hear the name of the classic villain Frank Booth?
35. Sergeant York, "Sergeant York." See comments on Serpico. Next.
35. J.J. Hunsecker, "Sweet Smell of Success." I want to see this film. But it is obviously not one of the Great Scren Villains (this is the rare list that SHOULD be a popularity contest).
34. Tarzan. Obvious pick. And good one.
34. Dr. Szell, "Marathon Man." I'll give it because a lot of people DO remember "Is it safe?"
33. Marge Gunderson, "Fargo." Hey, AFI, it's Great Heroes, not Great Movies!
33. Count Dracula. Now we're talking. And by the way, it's a pity Frank Langella never really got that meaty role he deserved (Skeletor doesn't count).
32. Philip Marlowe. Hey, AFI, what about Mitchum, Montgomery, and Powell?
32. Bonnie and Clyde, "Bonnie and Clyde." Eh. Not really villains, I guess. Bad pick.
31. Erin Brockovich, "Erin Brockovich." Reasonable pick. One of the better real-life heroes selected.
31. Mrs. Danvers, "Rebecca." Decent pick.
30. Cool Hand Luke, "Cool Hand Luke." A great pick--I would like to see The Great Escape (a similar part) up there as well.
30. Travis Bickle, "Taxi Driver." Is he really a villain?
29. General Patton, "Patton." I'm skeptical on this one. Again, we're not honoring real people and we're not honoring great performances.
29. Rev. Harry Powell, "The Night of the Hunter." A pick that MUST be on there. "DIE BART DIE!"
28. Juror #8, "12 Angry Men." A classic of American film. I'm tempted to bump Tom Joad and let this be the Henry Fonda performance (and he does have a name, I can't remember it).
28. Max Cady, "Cape Fear." I actually like this one better than "Night of the Hunter." And Gregory Peck should join Gary Cooper as Guys That Are Heroes Just Standing There.
27. Woodward and Bernstein, "All the President's Men." STOP PICKING REAL PEOPLE!
27. Martians. You ever seen "War of the Worlds?" It's a darned cool film, probably worthy of a remake.
26. Superman. That was so poignant when Christopher Reeve talked about Superman. A seminal pick to be sure, way better than the Batman films.
26. Cody Jarrett, "White Heat." When someone asks where the line "Top of the world, ma!" came from, it's this film. Easy pick.
25. Lou Gehrig, "The Pride of the Yankees." I like this film a lot, but since we have too many real people, I'd prefer Roy Hobbs, "The Natural."
25. Jack Torrance, "The Shining." Good pick.
24. Thelma and Louise, "Thelma and Louise." I'm tempted to laugh out loud at this pick, but it is a good one, I'm just getting disillusioned by what I thought the list was going to be about.
24. Gordon Gekko, "Wall Street." Huh? Did AFI just pick these suggestions by asking each star they ran into what their favorite part was?
23. Terry Malloy, "On the Waterfront." Hey, how come Stanley Kowalski isn't on the villains list?
23. Eve Harrington, "All About Eve." In the words of my friend, Justin Waller, "How about--NO?" This is not Great Performance Theater. This is Greatest Villains. This is Jaws. This is "I expect you to die!" This is not Eve Harrington. Sorry.
22. Spartacus, "Spartacus." Ah, we've found a real pick. "I'm Spartacus!"
22. Terminator, "The Terminator." Good pick.
21. Gandhi, "Gandhi." Is it just me or is the picking of real people just absurd after a while? Hey, let's pick Abe Lincoln. He was in a movie!
21. Mrs. John Iselin, "The Manchurian Candidate." Haunting villain to be sure. I'll reluctantly take it.
20. Butch and Sundance, "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid." Fine, I guess.
20. Man, "Bambi." A sort of pretentious pick. Man isn't really villainous, just ignorant and misguided. I'd kind of like Stromboli from "Pinocchio" or something.
19. Virgil Tibbs, "In the Heat of the Night." THEY CALL ME MISTER TIBBS!
19. Captain Bligh, "Mutiny on the Bounty." Bligh is just sort of a prig and a meanie, not really a villain per se.
18. Robin Hood. Yup. Although all others step aside--Errol Flynn is Hood.
18. The Shark, "Jaws." YEAH!
17. Harry Callahan, "Dirty Harry" series. Now we're talking.
17. Annie Wilkes, "Misery." Reasonable pick.
16. Shane, "Shane." I adore this film, although the cynic in me would take Jack Palance over Alan Ladd.
16. Noah Cross, "Chinatown." Eh.
15. Norma Rae Webster, "Norma Rae." Solid pick.
15. Amon Goeth, "Schindler's List." I would have just taken Goeth, not Schindler.
14. Han Solo. Yup. If he's not here, the list is useless.
14. Alien. Another seminal pick.
13. Oskar Schindler, "Schindler's List." See Goeth above.
13. Hal 9000, "2001: A Space Odyssey." Classic pick.
12. Tom Joad, "The Grapes of Wrath." He'll be there.
12. Alex DeLarge, "A Clockwork Orange." Yeah.
11. Jefferson Smith, "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." A must have pick.
11. Michael Coreleone, "The Godfather" series. I guess ya gots to have yer Godfather, although it's tough to place him.
10. T.E. Lawrence, "Lawrence of Arabia." One of the few historical picks that seems right.
10. Queen, "Snow White and the 7 Dwarves." Of course.
9. George Bailey, "It's a Wonderful Life." Yeah.
9. Regan MacNeill, "The Exorcist." Actually, that would be Pazuzu. But it has to be here.
8. Ellen Ripley, "Alien" series. Of course.
8. Phyllis Dietrichson, "Double Indemnity." Keep her but she shouldn't be this high.
7. Rocky Balboa, "Rocky" series. Obviously, yeah, but WHERE IN HECK IS RAMBO?! NOOOOO!
7. Alex Forrest, "Fatal Attraction." Same as above--keep her but move her down.
6. Clarice Starling, "The Silence of the Lambs." Move her way down and on a good day, I'll take her.
6. Mr. Potter, "It's a Wonderful Life." Yup.
5. Will Kane, "High Noon." Just to be a cynic, but I wouldn't have minded to see "For Whom the Bell Tolls."
5. Nurse Ratched, "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest." The villains list has sort of run out of steam. Good pick but LOWER, EEGAH, LOWER!
4. Rick Blaine, "Casablanca." Lower.
4. Wicked Witch, "The Wizard of Oz." Arguably, this would be Number One or Two.
3. James Bond. This should really be Number One or Two.
3. Darth Vader, "Star Wars" series. Was there any doubt?
2. Indiana Jones. To me, this is number one, but I see what they were trying to do and I do admire it.
2. Norman Bates, "Psycho." Yeah.
1. Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird." At first glance this seems silly, but I adore this film and a lot of other people do. They should just call it the Gregory Peck Award or something.
1. Hannibal Lecter, "The Silence of the Lambs" series. Of course.

This list seems largely as stupid as the Oscars. I have to seriously wonder what the criteria are to appear on this list. Characters that were memorable? Frightening? That embodied an era or archetype? Why does Obi-Wan Kenobi rate on the list? He was never more than a supporting character in the first trilogy, and neither he nor any of the characters in the current would rate a blip.
---It also feels odd to lump together real-life heroes like Norma Rae, Mohandas Gandhi, Moses and Woodward and Bernstein with fictional characters like Batman or Rocky. It just seems, I dunno, somewhat trivializing to refer to Gandhi or Oskar Schindler, or Woodward/Bernstein as memorable “movie characters.”
---Some of the choices just perplex me. Why are Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid considered heroes, but Bonnie & Clyde considered villains? Weren’t they all villians? Mike Cassidy and Robert Leroy Parker were thieves and bank robbers. What’s heroic about this? What, just because they were the main characters makes them the good guys? Perhaps it’s because of this, that the former were depicted as protagonists, and the latter as antagonists, but then if that’s the thinking, why is Michael Corleone or Travis Bickle listed as villains? Weren’t all of these people criminals?
---Even dumber, why are Thelma and Louise listed as heroes? What did they do that was heroic? After shooting Thelma’s would-be rapist in the head (after he had already released Thelma), they robbed convenience stores and held a highway policeman at gunpoint. How was Andrew Becket a “hero”? How was George Bailey a “hero”? What did either do that was “heroic”? What, dying of AIDS makes you a “hero”? Wallowing in self-pity until an angel shows you why you shouldn’t makes you a “hero”? When I read stuff like this, it seems to me that he lists are not so much about memorable “heroes” and “villains,” but memorable characters, and which list a character ends up on seems largely arbitrary and trivial.

#45 Joker: I've heard that a lot of people loved Nicholson's performance as the Joker. apparently, he may be one of, if not the best batman villain

#32: Didn't they kill people?

I admit that I'm a bias Trek fan, but shouldn't Kirk & Khan be in the top 50? Granted, they originated from a TV show, but Kirk was in 7 movies!

The listing of Man from Bambi bothered me. I'm not a hunter, but I know some. They want to shoot bucks, not does, and it's not because they're villains.

I don't have a problem w/ real people on the list as long as they are on the list due to their portrayal in the movie. I don't know if Saleri from Amadeus was real, but he should have made the list.

I agreed with what you said, Luigi, until your final paragraph.

Andrew Beckett was a hero because he launched a lawsuit to show the hypocrisy of corporations that fired him because he had AIDS and was gay.

George Bailey was a hero because he gave up his whole life to help the people of Bedford Falls.

I don't see Andrew Becket as being a really memorable movie character, nor do I see what he did as that heroic. He was acting on self-interest. He didn't choose to sacrifice anything or risk his life the way a firefighter or solider did.

Anonymous: I admit that I'm a bias Trek fan, but shouldn't Kirk & Khan be in the top 50? Granted, they originated from a TV show...
Luigi Novi: Many on the list originated from other media: Batman & the Joker, Regan MacNeill, Clarice Starling & Hannibal Lecter, James Bond, Juror #8, Robin Hood, Tarzan, Atticus Finch, the Wicked Witch, Norman Bates, Superman, the Martians, Jack Torrance, Hans Gruber, HAL9000, etc.

Interesting that characters both of the two films that were inspired or based on the crimes of serial killer Ed Gein got on the list.

Luigi, I think he is heroic in the sense of overcoming-adversity. I think he was picked for the list for the same reason that Thelma and Louise are on there.

Other Heroes and Villains Overlooked (some are mentioned above)

HEROES
*Nick and Nora Charles, The Thin Man Series
*Beau Geste (although this has lost its impact over the years)
*Judah Ben-Hur (why wasn't he on?)
*Axel Foley, Beverly Hills Cop
*Bulldog Drummond
*Bullitt (at least one Steve McQueen character--The Great Escape else)
*Captain Blood (although Robin Hood is about the same)
*Sherlock FREAKIN' Holmes (this is a disgrace)
*J.J. Gittes, Chinatown (not really a hero)
*Jack Ryan, various films
*Crocodile Dundee (definitely a great hero)
*John McLane, Die Hard
*The Dirty Dozen
*The Ghostbusters
*The 54th Massachusetts Regiment, Glory
*Almost any John Wayne role (in particular J.B. Books from The Shootist, Hondo, Sean Thornton from The Quiet Man, Tom Donaphan from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Ringo Kid from Stagecoach, and Sgt. Stryker from The Sands of Iwo Jima)
*Quasimodo, The Hunchback of Notre Dame
*The Man With No Name, The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly
*Daniel-San, The Karate Kid
*Murtaugh and Riggs, Lethal Weapon
*The Magnificent Seven
*Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon
*Kris Kringle, Miracle on 34th Street
*Annie Sullivan, The Miracle Worker
*Roy Hobbs, The Natural
*Henri Charriere, Papillon
*Inspector Clouseau, The Pink Panther
*Wesley, The Princess Bride
*John Rambo
*Robocop
*Kathleen Turner's novelist character, Romancing the Stone
*SHAFT!
*Maria Von Trapp, The Sound of Music
*Jaime Escalante, Stand and Deliver
*Captain James Tiberius Kirk, Star Trek Series
*Elliot Ness, The Untouchables
*Willow (don't laugh)

VILLAINS
*Salieri, Amadeus
*Colonel Kurtz, Apocalypse Now
*The Birds, The Birds
*The Frankenstein Monster (although is he hero or villain?)
*Carrie's Mother, Carrie
*Jackal, The Day of the Jackal
*The Mountain Men, Deliverance
*Mr. Hyde
*General Jack D. Ripper (or Dr. Strangelove), from Dr. Strangelove
*Tchernaborg, Fantasia (the big demon)
*Id Monster, Forbidden Planet
*The Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, Ghostbusters
*Mrs. Robinson, The Graduate
*Professor Fate, The Great Race (just a personal fave)
*Captain Hook, Peter Pan
*The Invisible Man (a mind-boggling omission)
*Shere Khan, The Jungle Book
*Johnny Rocco, Key Largo
*King Kong (but where he would go?)
*Tommy Udo, Kiss of Death
*Audrey Jr., Little Shop of Horrors
*The Fat Man, The Maltese Falcon (an odd omission)
*Liberty Valance
*Michael Myers, Halloween
*Jason Vorhees, Friday the 13th (for sheer continuing-in-the-face-of-death), maybe Leatherface from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre to make it 3 Ed Gein characters
*The Phantom of the Opera
*Stromboli and Monstro, Pinocchio
*The Predator
*Claus Von Bulow, Reversal of Fortune
*The Satan Worshippers, Rosemary's Baby
*Uncle Charley, Shadow of a Doubt (a personal fave)
*Maleficent, Sleeping Beauty
*Oddjob from Goldfinger and Jaws from The Spy Who Loved Me (not Moonraker, please)
*KAAAAAAHHHHHHNNNNNNNN!
*Bruno Anthony, Strangers on a Train (a puzzling omission)
*Stanley Kowalski, A Streetcar Named Desire
*Fred C. Dobbs, The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
*Roat, Wait Until Dark
*Scary Judge Doom, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

KAAAAAAHHHHHHNNNNNNNN!

No, it's

KHHHHHHAAAAAANNNNNNNN!

Verbally, they sound about the same.

Yeah, but one's a nice Jewish boy, and the other's a Sikh megalomaniac.

Paul Winfield has been killed by Khan (through himself), the Terminator (implied), and the Martians in "Mars Attacks!" Good for him.

I don't see Andrew Becket as being a really memorable movie character... - Luigi

To each his/her own.

...nor do I see what he did as that heroic. He was acting on self-interest. - Luigi

Granted, I haven't seen this film in a long time. But what self-interest? Yes, he was suing the firm that fired him. But he was hardly in a condition to benefit from that suit.

I find a person who stands up to face injustice... facing personal humiliation (remember the mirror thing?) and discomfort, despite his illness and condition to be heroic.


He didn't choose to sacrifice anything or risk his life the way a firefighter or solider did. - Luigi

So teachers aren't heroes to you?

Doctors?

We all have varying definitions of what makes a hero... not all of them involve running into a burning building.

Personally, I don't define a hero as someone who sacrifices or risks his/her life for another. To me a hero is someone who distinguishes himself through an act of courage or a nobility of purpose.

For another forgotten hero, how about THX-1138 from the film of the same name? (I know, too obscure.)

MikeC: *LOL* When my family and I were wtahcing Jame Patterson's 1st To Die TV movie, and Gil Bellows died, yet again, I suggested he could do a movie with Winfield, Sean Bean, and Jurgen Prochnow (my grandmother with her perverse sense of humour calls him "the late Jurgen Prochnow") and you could call it EVERYBODY Dies.

Some Others

HEROES
*William Wallace, Braveheart
*Neo, The Matrix
*Austin Powers
*Lieutenant Frank Drebin
*Jackie Chan Character (they're all the same)

VILLAINS
*Agent Smith, The Matrix
*Orson Welles' Pudgy Cop, Touch of Evil
*"these guys," Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
*Body Snatchers, Invasion of the Body Snatchers
*Scorpio, Dirty Harry
*Dr. Evil, Austin Powers
*Bill the Butcher, Gangs of New York

Darth Sarcasm: But he was hardly in a condition to benefit from that suit.
Luigi Novi: Sure he was, if he won.

Darth Sarcasm: I find a person who stands up to face injustice... facing personal humiliation (remember the mirror thing?) and discomfort, despite his illness and condition to be heroic.
Luigi Novi: Maybe it’s just my impression, but when a person is wrongfully attacked or abused, fights back, and survives/wins, that to me seems more like a survivor than a “hero.”

Darth Sarcasm: So teachers aren't heroes to you? Doctors?
Luigi Novi: Depends. Some are, some are not. Not in the same way as firefighters or soldiers, and only if they go into teaching or medicine for noble reasons.

My newspaper had some interesting suggestions. Among them was Dr. Evil. I have to agree with that one.

It also pondered how Kenobi could make the list but neither of the Skywalker kids.

It also noted the lack of female presence in the top 50 and believed that Sarah Connor would've been a good pick.

Initially I disagreed with Mike about inlcuding actual people on this list, but the more I think the more I realize that he's absolutely right. This gives me an idea for what the next AFI list should be though. 100 True Stories!

P.S. I disagree about Training Day.

Josh, good point on Sarah Connor--how about bumping the good Terminator with Sarah?

Brian, disagree how? With me or with the list? If it's with me, I want to clarify that I've never seen it, but I'm just a little unsure about putting such recent films on the list. For all I know, it is extremely worthy.

BTW, Luigi, are ALL firefighters noble merely because they risk their lives? Why include the caveat for teachers/doctors but not for policemen or firefighters?

Mike: With you. I have seen Trainging Day and IMHO Denzel made a GREAT villian. Best dirty-cop role I've seen in years by any actor.

Sounds all right. I guess what really irked me was that the first two movies on the list were "Gladiator" and "Training Day." You could be right about Training Day, but I saw Gladiator. Fine movie, but one of the greatest heroes ever? No.

Sure he was, if he won. - Luigi

As anyone who has won major lawsuits will tell you... winning a major lawsuit doesn't make you an instant millionaire. Chances are great that the case continues into appeals for years, and Becket would be long dead before it is ultimately settled. So, no, chances are he still won't benefit from it.


Maybe it’s just my impression, but when a person is wrongfully attacked or abused, fights back, and survives/wins, that to me seems more like a survivor than a “hero.” - Luigi

One doesn't negate the other. You can be both:

So if Martin Luther King, Jr. hadn't been assasinated he wouldn't be a hero to you?

Gandhi?

Hellen Keller?

The list of people who simply faced and fought back injustices are still considered heroes.


Depends. Some are, some are not. Not in the same way as firefighters or soldiers, and only if they go into teaching or medicine for noble reasons. - Luigi

No one said Andrew Beckett's heroism was the same kind as firefighters or soldiers. People simply said that Beckett is considered a hero.

This is why I defined a hero as a person who distinguishes himself through a nobility of purpose as well as an act of courage (which doesn't always have to be life-threatening) rather than just a person who is willing to give his life for another.

By your standards, I shouldn't consider my dad a true hero, which is a rather limiting view, IMHO.

NOTE: In rereading my post, I realize it implies that Hellen Keller was assassinated. She was not, obviously. I meant to portray her simply as someone whose courage in the face of adversity and injustice is considered a hero.

Sorry for the confusion.

Not assassinated?

LOL!

Darth Sarcasm: As anyone who has won major lawsuits will tell you... winning a major lawsuit doesn't make you an instant millionaire.
Luigi Novi: I didn’t say it did.

Darth Sarcasm: One doesn't negate the other. You can be both:
Luigi Novi: True, but in Andrew Beckett’s case, I didn’t see him as being the other. Only the one.

Darth Sarcasm: So if Martin Luther King, Jr. hadn't been assasinated he wouldn't be a hero to you? Gandhi?
Luigi Novi: Yes, because he was knowingly willing to sacrifice his freedom and his life for his cause to help millions of other people, regardless of whether he ended up doing so.

Darth Sarcasm: Hellen Keller?
Luigi Novi: Merely for overcoming adversity? No. And in what way did she overcome injustice? By being a proponent of radical socialism? I doubt it. By promoting women’s suffrage or helping to found the ACLU? Lots of people did that whose names you and I don’t know, and don’t who don’t have entire books, plays and movies devoted to them.

Darth Sarcasm: The list of people who simply faced and fought back injustices are still considered heroes.
Luigi Novi: In and of itself, I don’t.

Darth Sarcasm: So teachers aren't heroes to you? Doctors?

Luigi Novi: Depends. Some are, some are not. Not in the same way as firefighters or soldiers, and only if they go into teaching or medicine for noble reasons.

Darth Sarcasm: No one said Andrew Beckett's heroism was the same kind as firefighters or soldiers. People simply said that Beckett is considered a hero.
Luigi Novi: I didn’t say they did. The question you asked that I answered with the above quote was whether I considered teachers to be heroes.

Darth Sarcasm: By your standards, I shouldn't consider my dad a true hero, which is a rather limiting view, IMHO.
Luigi Novi: By my standards, I myself consider certain people heroesm, and others, not necessarily so. I made no statements about whether other people “should” or “shouldn’t.”

Luigi Novi: By my standards, I myself consider certain people heroesm, and others, not necessarily so. I made no statements about whether other people “should” or “shouldn’t.”

Fair enough but I agree with Darth. Your defintion of hero is far too narrow.

Lots of people did that whose names you and I don’t know, and don’t who don’t have entire books, plays and movies devoted to them. - Luigi

I don't understand how not knowing the names of others who may have done the same things makes her a non-hero in your eyes. And why apply this to Keller and not to firefighters and soldiers (or do you know the names of every one who sacrificed their lives).


I didn’t say they did. The question you asked that I answered with the above quote was whether I considered teachers to be heroes. - Luigi

Right. And my question was in response to your statement that you don't consider Beckett a hero because "he didn't choose to sacrifice anything or risk his life the way a firefighter or solider did." The point being that there are TONS of people who don't risk their lives but are still considered heroes (even by you).

Brian Webber: Fair enough but I agree with Darth. Your defintion of hero is far too narrow.
Luigi Novi: To each his own.

Darth Sarcasm: I don't understand how not knowing the names of others who may have done the same things makes her a non-hero in your eyes.
Luigi Novi: It doesn’t, and I didn’t say it did. Not having done anything I see as heroic does that.

Darth Sarcasm: And why apply this to Keller and not to firefighters and soldiers (or do you know the names of every one who sacrificed their lives).
Luigi Novi: Firefighters and soldiers put their lives on the line for total strangers. Helen Keller did not.

Darth Sarcasm: Right. And my question was in response to your statement that you don't consider Beckett a hero because "he didn't choose to sacrifice anything or risk his life the way a firefighter or solider did." The point being that there are TONS of people who don't risk their lives but are still considered heroes (even by you).
Luigi Novi: Only if they do something heroic. But that’s just me. Agree to disagree, brother.

Boy, it's like trying to figure out a Moebus strip...

I don't have a problem with disagreeing. I also don't have a problem with who you, personally, consider a hero and who you don't.

This debate started because you said that you didn't feel Beckett did anything heroic because you felt he was acting on self-interest (which I dispute) and because he didn't sacrifice anything (which I also disputed) or risk his life like a firefighter or soldier. And I think I missed a distinction you may have been making... I thought the prepositional phrase "like a firefighter or soldier" was meant to modify "risk" and "sacrifice," whereas now I suspect you only intended it to modify "risk." This is important as it opens up your criteria for what constitues a hero to you.

I think I'm just confused because you seem to apply a reasoning for your selection, when it's really just a matter of your personal preference.

I'm sorry, but deep down, everything we do is in self-interest in one way or another.

Maybe that's to philosophical but that's what I believe.

Darth Sarcasm: Boy, it's like trying to figure out a Moebus strip...
Luigi Novi: That’s what you get for trying to debate me after I spent all night going through several books on M.C. Escher.

Darth Sarcasm: I don't have a problem with disagreeing. I also don't have a problem with who you, personally, consider a hero and who you don't.
Luigi Novi: I know. I wasn’t you did.

Darth Sarcasm: This debate started because you said that you didn't feel Beckett did anything heroic because you felt he was acting on self-interest
Luigi Novi: That I didn’t see anything heroic on his part is mutually exclusive from my opinion of the act on his part that you offered.

Darth Sarcasm: And I think I missed a distinction you may have been making... I thought the prepositional phrase "like a firefighter or soldier" was meant to modify "risk" and "sacrifice," whereas now I suspect you only intended it to modify "risk." This is important as it opens up your criteria for what constitues a hero to you.
Luigi Novi: I meant it for both. They do risk their lives, and sometimes, they end up sacrificing them.

Darth Sarcasm: I think I'm just confused because you seem to apply a reasoning for your selection, when it's really just a matter of your personal preference.
Luigi Novi: What’s the difference? Of course it’s a matter of opinion. The reasoning is what I offer to explain it.

I'm sorry, but deep down, everything we do is in self-interest in one way or another.

How about sacrificing yourself to save someone else's life if you have no belief in an afterlife? :-)

It is still self-interest because you wanted to do it or felt obligated to do it. What of it? Self-interest really isn't the enemy of doing good.

Benn is going to have a field day with this one!!!

Nominees for AFI's Top 100 Movie Quotes

(Note, this is a PDF file that may take a while to download.)

Oh yeah. I'm looking forward to it. And the best thing is, I'm off work tonight! Yay!

I think these AFI lists are interesting. However, it seems like they're close to the end of interesting list topics. Will we soon see a list of the "100 Greatest Movie Costumes"?

I'd still like to see a list covering movie "scores" (e.g. music for "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark", composed by John Williams in both cases) as opposed to "soundtracks".

Additionally, one thing that might be done at some point, especially with the "100 Greatest Movies" list, is to revisit past lists after a decade. It's getting close to 10 years since that "greatest movies" list came out, and I'm sure that a list compiled in 2007 is going to be different in some significant ways than the one compiled in 1997. As far as this list goes, I think that the "influence" component of consideration should probably be removed, because "influence" and "greatness" aren't necessarily related. For example, I've seen "The Birth of a Nation", number 44 on the AFI's list. I'll grant that it was highly influential from a technical standpoint. But a great movie? Forget the controversy, and just consider the quality of storytelling. The movie drags significantly, mostly during the Civil War portion, which is most of the first half of a 3 hours and 7 minutes movie. If for a significant portion of a movie, I'm sitting there thinking, "Enough already!", it's not a great movie, no matter how influential it ultimately was.

I watched a hour of the quotes special before switching to watch my Pistons; I tried taping it, but after checking my tape at halftime, I've found it was defective (d'oh!), so I'll have to wait for a repeat performance.

From what I saw, it was typical AFI--some great picks, some wonky, but entertaining. This special tended, at least in the first hour, to turn into "AFI Presents I Love the Movies!" with more jokes and impressions than actual analysis (part of it may be that AFI gathered mostly comics that had nothing really to do with the film--Dennis Miller, Ray Romano, Penn and Teller, Fred Willard, D.L. Hughley).

Someone said it early in the special--the mark of a great quote is the ability to repeat it yourself, imitate it.

The list has been published on the AFI web site, but it's too busy at the moment to get in.

I haven't reviewed the entire nomination list yet, but an online article listed some of the chosen lines. I have a quibble about attributing the Star Wars line "May the Force be with you" to Harrison Ford, when it was first uttered by Alec Guinness. (or was it? Now they got me second-guessing myself.)

Browsing the rest of the nominations list, I find it interesting that they label the lines from TESB as "Star Wars V: The Empire Strikes Back", and the lines from SW as simply "Star Wars" (no bloody "IV" or subtitle).

Another mark of a great quote is if it has been used on MST3K (like "You can't handle the truth!" from A Few Good Men, which I believe was 29 on the list).

Regarding 100 Quotes:
There was no Trek!
Trek wasn't even nominatined in the list of 400.
No Kkkkaaaaahhhhhnnnnn!

Also, I like the 'other' line said by Dirty Harry in Magnum Force (I believe): "Nobody eats ketchup on a hot-dog."

Don't remember... was "Now the question you've got to be asking yourself is... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?" on the list

Well, it looks like AFI's next list will cover movie scores, and AFI's website has a list of its 250 nominees for the big final list reveal on September 23, 2005. Some omissions from the list, which I disagree with are:

The Empire Strikes Back (1980) - composer John Williams

Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan (1982) - composer James Horner

Beverly Hills Cop (1984) - composer Harold Faltermeyer

The Terminator (1984) - composer Brad Fiedel

Back To The Future (1985) - composer Alan Silvestri

Platoon (1986) - composer Georges Delerue

Top Gun (1986) - composer Harold Faltermeyer

Mississippi Burning (1988) - composer Trevor Jones

Born on the Fourth of July (1989) - composer John Williams

JFK (1991) - composer John Williams

Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story (1993) - composer Randy Edelman

I believe, though, that this is a different sort of list than the previous ones--it's a smaller overall list and the "winners" will be shown off at a concert where the scores will be played.

Re: The Andrew Beckett (Philadelphia - 1993) discussion from earlier on this board

If my memory is correct, Andrew Beckett was fired from the law firm which employed him on the basis of him having AIDS. However, Beckett's AIDS wasn't the law firm's official reason for firing him. The law firm's official reason for firing Beckett was "Beckett's incompetence". Bear in mind that Beckett was supposed to have been a top flight lawyer for this firm (and in fact he was until he was fired). So Beckett had more to gain with his lawsuit than just money. He also stood to have the record set straight about his own reputation as a lawyer.

As for the question of whether or not Andrew Beckett was a hero, I think his actions were heroic in some respects, but not most. As such, I think his inclusion on the AFI list of Heroes & Villains is probably misplaced.

Going back to the AFI Heroes & Villains list, I just watched "Thelma & Louise" for the first time since 1992, and as stated previously, the inclusion of Thelma Dickerson and Louise Sawyer on this list is rediculous. It's rediculous beyond the ranking. The two characters don't even fit the definition of heroes. Including these characters on this list is like including the 1971-72 Los Angeles Lakers on a list of top Major League Baseball teams of all-time.