Other than the bugs, it was a pretty good episode.
Somehow Mutiny doesn't strike me as a believable plot-line. T'pol even says she won't! (yes yes, I know, PAL)
LAME PUN OF THE WEEK:
Something about this episode really bugged me! (Ba dum bum!)
DESERVING DRESS DOWN OF THE WEEK:
I can't say I completely disagree with Archer's anger with Reed on the bridge. If Archer was on board, Reed's FIRST action should have been to call Archer to the bridge. Reed's only a lieutenant. He shouldn't have the authority to blow up ships.
LAME THREAT OF THE WEEK:
When Tucker goes to talk with T'Pol, Corporal Chang stops him. Tucker tells Chang that he's there under Phlox's orders. Then to sweeten the argument, he says, "You don't want me drag Phlox all the way down here do you?" What kind of threat is that? Ooooohhh! Dr. Phlox!! I'm trembling! (Although given some of the Denobulan's behavior last week, maybe he is concerned)
TECHNOLOGY REMEMBERANCE OF THE WEEK:
Stun Grenade!! Who'da thunk it?
UNSURPRISING PLOT TWIST OF THE WEEK:
For the second week in a row I saw the "plot twist" coming a mile away. They don't just have people get sprayed with strange goo for no good reason.
Although, in their defense, they did a good job of making me question whether the goo was responsible. That story about Archer's great-grandfather being in the Eugenics Wars (that was worthy of a good chuckle) was especially convincing.
OVERALL OPINION OF THE WEEK:
Pretty good. Kept me a lot more interested than last week's episode. Not as good as Stratagem or Proving Ground though. Grade B.
TUE
Captain, there is a multileged creature on your shoulder.
Well, we've finally had Enterprise's mutiny episode, and I think it didn't go that badly. It was exceptionally clear to me that the goo was responsible- a normal Archer probably would have given up when it came time to transfer the antimatter. Anyway, I want to preface my comments by saying that I missed the teaser, so if I pick on something that was explained then, well, that's why. Onward!
Three things I liked about this episode:
1) Eugenics War shout-out! Although it was a little lame the way they went out of their way to not actually specify where the story with Archer's Granddad took place.
2) I hope the effects people had fun getting the reflection of the Xindi Insectoid on Phlox's faceplate in sickbay.
3) Travis finally got to do something! Something important! Sweet!
Three things I didn't like about this episode:
1) Trip says the Xindi ship lost much of its antimatter in the crash. How did this happen? Did it evaporate somehow? Did it leak? If so, shouldn't that have put a sizable hole in the ship?
2) When Trip and co. enter the hatchery for the first time, the atmosphere starts to repressurize. First of all, when was the ship planning on bringing back the atmosphere in the first place? Wouldn't the Xindilets need that when they hatched? Anyway, as said atmosphere comes back, Trip doesn't mention anything about the air returning to the rest of the ship. This makes sense given the level of concern given over to the hatchery- you want to protect it first and foremost. However, when Archer enters the room, there's no indication that the pressurized air in the hatchery escapes into the rest of the ship, and then for some reason the rest of the ship gets its atmosphere back, as people start walking around it without suits on.
3) So, after having not seen the ship ballcaps since early in the first season, it's mighty convenient that they managed to drag one out for T'Pol to wear in order to fool the MACOs in the Armory!
Other notes
Reed indicates that the antimatter from the ship's reserves is used for the torpedoes. It's the very same antimatter? When does the antimatter get to the torpedoes? Is there a separate spout running from the engine to the armory? Does that seem overly complicated to anyone else? Should I stop asking questions now?
Um... that's all I've got. No doubt someone else will find everything I've missed. Final Grade: B. Next week: ...looks pretty interesting! I have to say, this is the first time I've been as intrigued by an upcoming ep since... well, probably since "What You Leave Behind." Props to the promo-monkeys.
Anyone else notice the Eugenics War being mentioned?
Trip gives Archer the "don't tell the captain, keep the audience in suspence" kind of remark in the beginning
The Insect Xindi apparently also work for Future Guy
The hatchways in the Xindi ship look to be of the same design as the Sulabon from the episodoe "Shockwave" Part II
The controls for the xindi shuttle appear to have been created by the Ferangi
Eugenics War did happen, Enterprise (series) confirms it in this episode.
Apparently the Enterprise still uses the old fashion torpedos. When the Major and Reed are discussing the battle simulation, you can see two of them on the launch racks.
I forgot a nit:
Archer makes a big deal about the Xindi-Insectoid babies needing antimatter from Enterprise in order to survive. At the end of the episode, the Insectoids are born and we find out that they will survive until the next ship arrives. But if I'm not mistaken, Trip got to Archer in time to retrieve the antimatter. So how come the babies didn't die?
TUE
Heh-heh. This episode has a production number of 069.
69. Heheheheheheheh.
You're on an enemy alien ship, an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere starts filling up the room and then you open your helmet. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB, DUMB!
Writer: But, duhhhhh, without it we wouldn't have a plot.
At the end Archer says, "Don't want another mutiny on my hands." Isn't it called Barratry when it involves the ship's officers?
---Critique:
---As “crewman acts nuts” episodes go, this one was okay, and like Strange New World, helped by some nice character interaction, moral arguments that helped serve as misdirection, and even some patches of subtlety.
---I got it by the end of Act 2. If I were the kind of person who tended to figure out plot points ahead of time like other people, I might’ve gotten it sooner, but only after watching Act 2 twice (I sometimes have trouble with the Act-to-Act transitions when editing the episodes onto permanent tapes with commercials), did I make the connection with the neurotoxin, and was all ready to declare that Archer had lost his friggin’ mind, and had actually made a worse command decision than Janeway did at the end of Spirit Folk(VOY). At this point, I thought it might have been something designed to cause the victim to imprint upon the eggs to care for them. But then another revelation occurred after Archer rebuked Reed for destroying the attacking Insectoid vessel. What if it wasn’t designed to cause the victim to imprint upon the eggs, but merely something to cause passersby to soften up? Something to suppress their natural instinct to defend themselves, which is why Archer was so averse to destroying the attacking ship, and that this was designed so that the victim would actually fall prey to the hatchlings, rather than (or in addition) to care for them? (I was thinking of female praying mantises, who mate with males before eating them.) I was wrong on this second part, but I was glad that the episode held back enough to keep me guessing a bit.
---What was impressive was that they peppered Archer’s paranoia with bits of behavior that actually sounded reasonable, like when he used the example about his great grandfather to explain the need for rules in war to Trip in the opening scene of Act 3, or when he actually expressed interest in being able to save the eggs without having to use their antimatter when rebuking Reed near the end of the same Act 3.
---Notes:
---Reed mentions in the beginning of Act 1 that his father is fascinated by insects, and is always filling up the house with bugs he brings home, which drives his mom crazy.
---Monday night is Movie Night, as Reed tells Hayes in the shuttlepod when returning to the Enterprise in Act 1.
---Phlox tells Archer in the second scene of Act 2 that Xindi Insectoids are genderless, and that he estimates that they live about 12 Earth years.
---Archer tells Trip in the opening scene of Act 3 that his great grandfather was a military man in Africa during the Eugenics Wars.
---Hayes indicates in the second-to-last scene of Act 4 that he (and possibly the MACOS) were trained at West Point.
---Continuity Nods:
Archer tells Trip in the opening scene of Act 3 that his great grandfather served in North Africa during the Eugenics Wars.
---Terms:
Xindi Insectoid Shuttle Small vessel equipped with half a dozen particle cannons and photon torpedoes, that Archer surmises is an assault vessel, as he tells Hayes when first examining it in Act 1. Travis speculates that it could probably fly into a gas giant, as he tells Trip in the opening scene of Act 2.
Starfleet Order 104, Section C Starfleet Protocol that allows a Chief Medical Officer to relieve the captain of command for medical reasons, which Phlox cites to Archer in the Launch Bay in Act 3.
Ensign Welsh One of Reed’s men, whom he tells T’Pol is stationed in the Armory when he releases T’Pol fromher quarters in the opening scene of Act 4.
West Point U.S. Military Academy founded in 1802 in New York State, whose graduates include Ulysses S. Grant, Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur, George Patton, Dwight Eisenhower and Norman Schwarzkopf, where Hayes indicates he was trained in the second-to-last scene of Act 4.
It was the editor’s way of saying he wishes he was watching a better episode
In the recap in the teaser, one clip shows a battle between the Enterprise and the Insectoid ships, with an off-camera Reed telling a grayed Trip that one was damaged, and Trip, in command, ordering to target the other one. That scene was from Act 4 of Twilight, in a future that in all probability was undone by the end of that episode. Why did they show this in the recap?
Yeah, it might’ve caused even more bizarre behavior on his part. He might’ve given Travis more to do.
Once again, we see why away teams should not only wear EV suits, but keep them on until they’ve secured the area and discovered everything they can about anything in the area that could prove dangerous. First, when Reed and Trip enter the inner part of the ship leading to the hatchery in Act 1, the door seals shut, and the area pressurizes with an atmosphere. Reed then removes his helmet. Why does he do this? If the door is programmed to close in order to keep the atmosphere in, doesn’t it stand to reason that opening the door might cause the atmosphere to first be removed? What happens if another member of the away team tries to come through that door from the other side, and the atmosphere evacuates? Second, Archer’s face is sprayed by a Xindi Insectoid egg with a neurotoxin that almost caused him to compromise the entire mission, and which could’ve been something far worse.
Except for the scene where Archer came out of the shower half naked. That should’ve been Hoshi.
When Trip tells Archer in Act 1 that the hatchery’s biosystem in is failing, Archer asks him if he can repair it. Trip responds that he wouldn’t even know where to start. This coming from the guy who repaired an alien ship’s engines in Unexpected, aliens whose technology was more sophisticated than his own, and who now says this without even taking a good look at the biosystem? On a similar note, Travis guesses in the opening scene of Act 2 that an icon on the Xindi command panel might represent the impulse manifolds, and incorrectly, when he seemed to imply that he knew how to fly the Suliban cell ship soon after it was captured in Act 6 of Broken Bow. (Personally, I find the scenes in this episode to be the correct way to depict such things.)
They purchased it from All Your Eggs in One Basket Power Systems Inc.
Another example of futuristic technology that favors centralization instead of decentralization: In the second-to-last scene of Act 2, Trip tells T’Pol that the Insectoid ship is totally integrated to the extent that powering the hatchery’s biosystem would mean powering up the whole thing.
Did T’Pol get a shot of that neurotoxin herself?
When T’Pol tries to convince Archer in the closing scene of Act 2 that it’ll take a third of their antimatter to repair the hatchery, Archer says they’ll still have plenty of fuel to get to Azati Prime, and T’Pol says they don’t know for certain if the weapon is in that system. Didn’t Degra clearly indicate in Act 4 of Stratagem that it was?
..--.._.-----_._ _--_ _ _ --.._-----_._.--._--_.-----....--.--._--._.-----_--....--..--…-----_ _--.--...--...--._--_ _.--.
._--._.--_._.--....--.--._.-----....--._--...-----_--_ _ _--_--._--._..--._..--_._ _-----.._.--.._--_._.--_._--..--_.--_ _.-----._..--_ _ _--...--_-----..--_
Under nits for the previous episode, I pointed out that Phlox is writing a letter to Dr. Lucas, and apologizing for not writing sooner, despite the lack of any communication seen between Archer and Admiral Forrest, or any indication that the Enterprise has been deploying subspace amplifiers. In this episode, it happens again. When Archer threatens to charge T’Pol with insubordination at the end of Act 2, she suggests that he contact Starfleet and discuss it with Admiral Forrest.
Well, it is Reed we’re talking about, isn’t it?
If Reed just wants to disable the attacking Insectoid ship’s impulse manifolds near the end of Act 3, why does he order the torpedoes to be fired at maximum yield?
To badly edit where no one has badly edited before
It appears that T’Pol’s acting captain’s starlog at the end of Act 4 may have been written after the second scene that follows it was filmed. She says in that log that they have resumed their course for Azati Prime, and that Hayes and his men have been temporarily relieved of duty. The scene that immediately follows this log shows Hayes being brought to sickbay, where Phlox explains the Insectoid neurochemical effects on Archer to him, T’Pol, Reed, and Trip. T’Pol tells Hayes in this scene that she’s restoring him and his men to duty. This means some time must’ve passed since she wrote that starlog. But then, in the next scene, the last of the episode, Trip goes to Archer’s quarters, where he tells him that they “just recovered” the last of their antimatter reserves (when this scene must have taken place at least several hours after they did so), and right before he leaves, Archer tells him to have Travis set course for Azati Prime at maximum warp, when they’re already on a course for Azati Prime.
Oh, and one thing I forgot about that last nit: Phlox tells Hayes that Archer will be available to speak to him when he wakes up in "a few hours." If Trip followed this order by Phlox, then the last scene with him and Archer must be at least a few hours after the sickbay scene right before it.
What was impressive was that they peppered Archer’s paranoia with bits of behavior that actually sounded reasonable,- Luigi Novi
Exactly! That's what made the ep work for me. I saw it as more of a 'chain of command' ep more than a 'crewman goes nuts' ep and the ambiguity of whether to follow orders or not was done nicely, as was the way that the senior officer's interpretation of events was played against the MACOs. Either that or it was about strawberries.
It seems like they tried to ratchet up the tension as the ep went on, but they didn't quite have me on the edge of my seat. Too bad because it could've been a classic ep. Still, I'd give it a solid B+.
Luigi--I'm getting my Morse back on. Decoded enough from memory to understand, except for the third-to-last word. Let's see--two letters from the UFVGQZ group and two from the NDBKYXC group. Don't tell me. I want to do it myself.
Keith--Mutiny is an offense against the master; barratry is an offense against the owner (typically by the master, diverting the vessel to his/her own purposes).
What happened to the shtrawberriesh?
I guess Spock must have overlooked the incident in this episode when he said in The Tholian Web there had never been a mutiny on a starship before.
TUE: I can't say I completely disagree with Archer's anger with Reed on the bridge. If Archer was on board, Reed's FIRST action should have been to call Archer to the bridge. Reed's only a lieutenant. He shouldn't have the authority to blow up ships.
But Reed was left in command of the ship. When the captain leaves the bridge and gives someone "the conn," then until the captain returns that person is in command. Now, Reed did call Archer to the bridge, but until Archer steps out of the turbolift and assumes command, Reed has a right to take whatever action he feels is necessary in accordance with the mission objectives and Starfleet regulations.
And yes, KAM, rebellious misconduct by a ship's officers is correctly termed barratry. Mutiny is when the enlisted crew rebels against the authority of the officers.
Well, KAM, I guess I was WRONG. I looked up barratry and mutiny in the dictionary, and it appears that TJFleming is correct. Barratry is defined as "an unlawful breach of duty on the part of a ship's master or crew resulting in injury to the ship's owner," whereas mutiny is defined as "open rebellion against constituted authority, especially rebellion of sailors against superior officers." Technically, then, lower-ranking officers can mutiny against senior officers, and enlisted crew can commit barratry. Of course, I doubt that the actions of the crew would really be classified as mutiny, since Archer at this point was on the verge of barratry (I guess) by openly disregarding his mission directives and jeopardizing the safety of Earth. The crew had an obligation to relieve Archer, but he had taken steps (posting MACOs everywhere and putting Major Hayes in command) to prevent them from simply relieving him of duty.
Luigi Novi: Archer tells Trip in the opening scene of Act 3 that his great grandfather served in North Africa during the Eugenics Wars.
So, anybody have any thoughts as to what this means in terms of Star Trek as a whole? In "Space Seed," when discussing the Eugenics Wars, Spock says that they were "the last of your [humans'] so-called world wars," and that they took place in the early 1990s. Khan confirms this in STII when he says that his ship was adrift in space since the "year 1996," his exile being the concluding act of the Eugenics Wars.
"Encounter at Farpoint" talked about a period known as "the post-atomic horror," and Q set a tribunal from that period in the year 2079, suggesting that there had been some type of nuclear conflict in the mid-21st century. However, nothing directly conflicted with Spock's assessment of WWIII as being in the 1990s until First Contact. In that film, right after the Enterprise exits the chronometric vortex, Data states that astrometrics readings put the ship somewhere in the 21st century. He then says, "Based on the level of radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere, I would estimate that we have arrived approximately ten (10) years after the third world war." The date later given, if I'm not mistaken, is April 5, 2063. So, WWIII occurred, not as the Eugenics Wars in the late 1990s, but as a massive nuclear conflict somewhere in the 2040-2050s.
When I heard this, I always assumed that TPTB were quietly backing off from the Eugenics Wars. After all, we can hardly as an audience accept Star Trek if it requires us to believe that, ten years ago, we experienced a massive shift in governmental structure as genetically engineered supermen seized power. This dialogue, coupled with the efforts to write the Eugenics Wars into actual late-20th-century history as done in the "Eugenics Wars" series of novels (noncannon, of course, but still approved by TPTB) indicated to me that there was some revisionism at work, and that these Eugenics Wars were being altered from a world war-size conflict to a quiet behind-the-scenes power struggle that would result in Khan's being secretly exiled (after all, records were scanty, as Spock claimed).
But Archer's reference to the Eugenics Wars seems to indicate that the war was really a war. However, the date seems a little off. If it's 2153 or so in Archer's day, is it possible that his grandfather served in a war that, according to the original estimates, took place 160 years earlier (1993 to 2153)? Or are they trying to say that the Eugenics Wars was the WWIII alluded to in First Contact, which would have only been a hundred years earlier?
I've only seen the first half of the episode, so coming from that perspective...
The conversation between Reed and Hayes seemed interesting... then it descended into petty bickering again. *sigh* Didn't we already do this?
Either Reed is a pretty lousy tactition when it comes to preparedness or he so dislikes Hayes that he'll go against anything he says, whether it's reasonable or not. Either way, he's seeming pretty petty.
Also, is it just me, or does the crew start second guessing the captain WAY too fast?
It seems ironic that when "Gul Archer" finally starts displaying some starfleet behavior, the crew decides to mutiny. It's almost like TPTB are trying to make these characters as unlikeable as possible.
Finally, it seems strange that once the htachery pressureizes, everyone is walking around the whole ship without EV suits on. Just how much of the ship pressureized anyway?
When Trip tells Archer in Act 1 that the hatchery’s biosystem in is failing, Archer asks him if he can repair it. Trip responds that he wouldn’t even know where to start. This coming from the guy who repaired an alien ship’s engines in Unexpected, aliens whose technology was more sophisticated than his own, and who now says this without even taking a good look at the biosystem... - Luigi
I think a key difference might be that in Unexpected he could speak with people who were familiar with those particular engines... he had no such advantage here. Also, it's possible that while Xyrillian technology is generally more advanced, there are enough similarities to Starfleet technology to be of assistance. Perhaps the Xindi Insectoid technology is simply that different.
On a similar note, Travis guesses in the opening scene of Act 2 that an icon on the Xindi command panel might represent the impulse manifolds, and incorrectly, when he seemed to imply that he knew how to fly the Suliban cell ship soon after it was captured in Act 6 of Broken Bow. - Luigi
Again, it's possible that Insectoid technology and language is simply more different than Suliban technology. Remember that the Suliban were familiar to T'Pol, so it's possible -- even likely -- that information on their technology was available in the Vulcan database.
Didn’t Degra clearly indicate in Act 4 of Stratagem that it was? - Luigi
Not really. Degra gave them an indication that something of importance was in that system. But he didn't say the weapon was there... at least not to my recollection.
I guess Spock must have overlooked the incident in this episode when he said in The Tholian Web there had never been a mutiny on a starship before. - Hans Thielman
While in a technical, dictionary-defined sense it is a mutiny, perhaps this incident wasn't categorized as one in an official sense... for instance, no one was charged.
Think of Roman Polanski, who drugged and forced a teenage girl to have sex with him. While in a technical, dictionary-defined sense, this was rape, he was only charged with having sex with a minor. To the point where this is what people remember today.
$u(k$ to be Captain Quantum-Boy, doesn't it?
Commander Jack@$$ gets to make the sign of the Double Diamondbacked LeMatya with Subcommander Kes-With-Hooters - and the Captain ends up godmother to a nest of Insectoids.
Thank you, O Killer B's.
And that's all I got to say about that.
This episode gave me the creeps. Why? Because creepy crawly insects give me the creeps! I had to close my eyes when those babies were crawling around and on Archer. Of course, my boyfriend decided to run his fingers across my shoulder at that point, and I almost hit the ceiling! Some people have no respect for others' phobias!
Other than the bugs, it was a pretty good episode.
Margie: Check out (or maybe you shouldn't) an episode of the original (not the '90's version} of The Outer Limits called "The Zanti Misfits." It concerned giant ants, the size of cats, who were exiled to Earth from the planet Zanti. If the Xindi insectoids from "Hatchery" gave you the willies...
They purchased it from All Your Eggs in One Basket Power Systems Inc.
-- LUIGI NOVI
But they bought their computers from Distributed Networking LLC.
T'Pol stated their command and control systems to be almost completely decentralized. Interesting contrast.
The goo made Archer act like somekinda Captain Janeway. One more dose and he would have taken the Rug-Bugs back to Enterprise and made them members of the crew.
To Jesse: re: Eugenics Wars/WWIII
"Space Seed" indeed indicates the Eugenics Wars occured in the early 1990s and ended around '96. Spock admitted that records of that period were "fragmentary", thus allowing Kirk and Spock to be ignorant of Khan's true identity.
Spock mentions WWIII in "Bread and Circuses" when he quotes casualty figures to McCoy. However, to the best of my recollection, there are no direct statements in TOS saying that the EW was WWIII. Without any evidence to the contrary, some fans probably assumed EW was WWIII and didn't think about it any further. Then, Roddenberry writes TNG and sets a scene in "the post-atomic horror" of 2079. Also, Data mentions a "United Earth" government of 2032 in the same scene. Q replies that by 2079 "that United Earth nonsense" had been forgotten. So now we have the EW in the 1990s era and an "atomic horror" (nuclear war) sometime between 2032-2079. This is what the writers of First Contact had in mind when they put their conflict circa 2053. (Data says, when they arrive in 2063 that the residual radiation has decayed roughly "ten years")(I'm paraphrasing here)
So, we have two separate conflicts. Eugenics Wars in 1900s and World War III around 2053.
As to the episode: Terrific! Absolutely loved it! And I saw the plot coming a mile away! Even so, it was a vast improvement over recent episodes. Now I'm depressed. What does it tell you when a fan gets excited about mediocrity?
Ingredients: One part Alien/ One part Enemy Mine/ Sprinkle with Mutiny on the Bounty/Turnabout Intruder and shoot in seven days. Serve on Wednesday nights.
Is it stated for certain that WWIII and the "atomic horror" are one and the same? Maybe the horror is a Chernobyl/Three Mile Island event of major proportions with widespread environmental damage or a series of terrorist-type nuclear strikes at populous areas. WWIII could be an entirely separate event.
Captain Dunsel: However, to the best of my recollection, there are no direct statements in TOS saying that the EW was WWIII.
Actually, there was a statement. Let me recap the conversation for you, which occurs in Act 1.
Spock: "The hull is pitted with meteor scars. But scanners were able to make out a name: SS Botany Bay."
Kirk: "Then you can check the registry."
Spock: "No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The 1990s were the period of your so-called last world war."
[Dramatic horn music.]
McCoy: "The Eugenics Wars."
So, then, this dialog DIRECTLY EQUATES the 1990s Eugenics Wars as being the LAST WORLD WAR. This directly conflicts with First Contact's statement that World War III occurs in the 2150s.
Oops. Can anyone say "retcon"?
Personally, I think the Eugenics Wars/WWIII nit should be placed under nits for ST First Contact, because that would seem to be (I think) the first indicator of when WWIII “really” was, creating the contradiction with Space Seed.
The Undesirable Element: I can't say I completely disagree with Archer's anger with Reed on the bridge. If Archer was on board, Reed's FIRST action should have been to call Archer to the bridge.
Luigi Novi: It was Reed’s first action. The only thing he did prior to it was call for Tactical Alert.
The Undesirable Element: Reed's only a lieutenant. He shouldn't have the authority to blow up ships.
Luigi Novi: TUE, are you sure you didn’t get a shot of that neurochemical yourself? The Insectoid ship fired on the Enterprise, that have proven deadly in the past, and Reed was in command. He had EVERY authority to destroy it. My only problem is that he supposedly wanted to disable their impulse manifolds.
The Undesirable Element: Then to sweeten the argument, he says, "You don't want me drag Phlox all the way down here do you?" What kind of threat is that?
Luigi Novi: I took this as Trip’s way of saying, “Do I really have to drag Phlox down here to prove to you that I’m here on his orders?”
Sparrow47: Trip says the Xindi ship lost much of its antimatter in the crash. How did this happen? Did it evaporate somehow? Did it leak? If so, shouldn't that have put a sizable hole in the ship?
Luigi Novi: There were holes in the ship. The first time T’Pol visits Archer in the hatchery in Act 2, he tells her that there were breaches in the outer hull. That kinda happens when you make an emergency landing on a planet after one of your nacelles fractures (as Trip tells Archer in the closing scene of Act 2).
Sparrow47: When Trip and co. enter the hatchery for the first time, the atmosphere starts to repressurize. First of all, when was the ship planning on bringing back the atmosphere in the first place?
Luigi Novi: Did the Insectoid adults who sacrificed themselves perhaps program the atmosphere to return when the ship’s internal sensors sensed adult lifeforms, hoping that the first ones to do so would be fellow Insectoids?
Sparrow47: Wouldn't the Xindilets need that when they hatched?
Luigi Novi: Actually, this is something I forgot to mention in my first post: Wouldn’t the eggs need then before they hatch? If the Insectoids evolved on the same homeworld as the Primates, Arboreals, Reptilians, Amphibians and Avians, then shouldn’t the eggs need an atmosphere? It’s not like the Insectoids evolved in an atmosphere, did they?
Sparrow47: Reed indicates that the antimatter from the ship's reserves is used for the torpedoes. It's the very same antimatter? When does the antimatter get to the torpedoes? Is there a separate spout running from the engine to the armory?
Luigi Novi: Maybe the reserves aren’t in the engine, but in a container that can be fed to both the engine and the torpedoes.
Torque, Son of Keplar: The hatchways in the Xindi ship look to be of the same design as the Sulabon from the episodoe "Shockwave" Part II
Luigi Novi: I reviewed both that episode and the last couple of Acts of Broken Bow and didn’t see any such hatchways in either episode.
Torque, Son of Keplar:Apparently the Enterprise still uses the old fashion torpedos. When the Major and Reed are discussing the battle simulation, you can see two of them on the launch racks.
Luigi Novi: We’ve seen their torpedoes in many episodes before, such as and Fight or Flight and Acquisition. In the former, we actually saw the automatic loading of the torpedoes in the tube prior to firing.
The Undesirable Element: Archer makes a big deal about the Xindi-Insectoid babies needing antimatter from Enterprise in order to survive. But if I'm not mistaken, Trip got to Archer in time to retrieve the antimatter. So how come the babies didn't die?
Luigi Novi: Was Archer simply exaggerating their need for it because of his affliction? (Then again, Trip merely said, “Chances are” that they’ll survive.)
Keith Alan Morgan: You're on an enemy alien ship, an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere starts filling up the room and then you open your helmet. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB, DUMB.
Luigi Novi: Why is this bad, Keith? Does this cause the bends?
Keith Alan Morgan: At the end Archer says, "Don't want another mutiny on my hands." Isn't it called Barratry when it involves the ship's officers?
Luigi Novi: The words seem somewhat interchangeable, particular when you look at their secondary meanings. The secondary meaning of “mutiny,” for example, is “a rebellion against legal authority,” which means Archer’s use of it is acceptable.
TJFleming: Luigi--I'm getting my Morse back on. Decoded enough from memory to understand, except for the third-to-last word. Let's see--two letters from the UFVGQZ group and two from the NDBKYXC group. Don't tell me. I want to do it myself.
Luigi Novi: I have no intention of telling you what it is. But don’t tell Richie what it is. He might not like it.
Jesse: So, anybody have any thoughts as to what this means in terms of Star Trek as a whole?
Luigi Novi: I never thought the creators were trying to distance themselves from the Eugenics wars, but I think it would be easier to simply write off Spock’s one comment in Space Seed that they were the “last world war” as a mistake on his part. He made on in the teaser of that episode about the possibility of any Earth ships being in that sector, didn’t he?
Darth Sarcasm: Perhaps the Xindi Insectoid technology is simply that different.
Luigi Novi: And yet isn’t Archer able to fix it?
Darth Sarcasm: Remember that the Suliban were familiar to T'Pol, so it's possible -- even likely -- that information on their technology was available in the Vulcan database.
Luigi Novi: And that enabled him to instantly decipher the controls to the point that he was able to tutor Trip on how to pilot it to the Helix, and without Hoshi or T’Pol there to help him?
Darth Sarcasm: Not really. Degra gave them an indication that something of importance was in that system. But he didn't say the weapon was there... at least not to my recollection.
Luigi Novi: Review the end of Act 4. After being put back in the brig after seeing through the ruse, Degra told Archer that the only thing there is an Insectoid deuterium facility, that he told Archer was Archer thought he wanted him to tell him, and goaded Archer into proceeding thera at max warp. During the second ruse, they dragged Degra to the bridge, and when Degra saw the red giant on the main viewer, he totally lost it, screaming that they’ll never get close to the weapon, and that their defense perimeter will destroy them.
Unless Degra is a good actor, and was simply continuing his own attempt at a ruse—not to mention his going apesh*t at seeing the star and his bewildered look at being told it was another ruse—and Azati Prime really isn’t the location of the Weapon (and this is a BIG if, particularly considering the cleverness of the Killer B’s writing), it seems pretty clear. We might turn out to be fooled by the next episode, but even so, Archer’s decision to go there is hardly as illogical as T’Pol seems to imply. Moreover, when Archer first told her and Trip of his plan in the ready room in the closing scene of Act 1, she said, “What about Azati Prime?” Now she’s arguing that it might be the wrong place? She should be focusing on Archer’s compromised judgment, not his choice of destination. Her comment is totally beside the point.
Darth Sarcasm: Think of Roman Polanski, who drugged and forced a teenage girl to have sex with him. While in a technical, dictionary-defined sense, this was rape, he was only charged with having sex with a minor. To the point where this is what people remember today.
Luigi Novi: I agree with the main part of your anti-nit, but don’t think Polanski is the best example to illustrate it, because while some people may not know that the sex was forced, many others like myself do.
Summerfield: T'Pol stated their command and control systems to be almost completely decentralized. Interesting contrast.
Luigi Novi: Which Act or scene was this? I looked for it but couldn’t find it at all.
Luigi Novi: Personally, I think the Eugenics Wars/WWIII nit should be placed under nits for ST First Contact, because that would seem to be (I think) the first indicator of when WWIII “really” was, creating the contradiction with Space Seed.
Luigi Novi: I never thought the creators were trying to distance themselves from the Eugenics wars, but I think it would be easier to simply write off Spock’s one comment in Space Seed that they were the “last world war” as a mistake on his part. He made on in the teaser of that episode about the possibility of any Earth ships being in that sector, didn’t he?
I don't know if Spock said it in the teaser or not, b/c I just re-watched Act 1, right after the opening credits. He may have said it there too.
I have no concrete basis to say that TPTB are trying to distance themselves from the Eugenics Wars. However, there are a few interesting clues that lead me to believe that the Eugenics Wars is not what it once was trumped up to be.
1. In Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, the crew heads to 1986 Earth. Nothing seems to indicate that there is a major war and political upheaval in the offing. The American personnel who detain Chekov think he's a Soviet (well, his accent causes that). Now, that's hardly conclusive, since maybe the Eugenics Wars descended suddenly upon Earth, say, in 1989, with little or no warning. But still....
2. In the VOY episode "Future's End," the Voyager crew lands in California in 1996. Did anyone see any evidence that a viscious war, "the last of our so-called world wars," had just been concluded? Did Janeway or any of her crew talk about it, saying things like "Gee, sure looks pretty good, considering that the Eugenics Wars just ended"? According to Trek chronology, Khan and his men should just have been ousted at this point.
3. The Eugenics Wars novel series has been published, written by (I believe) Greg Cox. I haven't read them, but they are an attempt to explain how there could have been a Eugenics War with little or no public knowledge (if I understand them). In other words, they are attempting to harmonize Trek chronology with human history. Now, I know that novels are not cannon in the slightest, but they do require TPTB's approval. (If you don't believe me, Garfield and Judith Reeves-Stevens stated in the preface to their novel Federation that their request to publish had been denied by the higher-ups at Star Trek, presumably because TPTB were planning a Kirk-Picard crossover and didn't want a novel to jump the gun.) This means that a novel that does not at least agree with TPTB's general creative intent will not be published. If TPTB didn't approve of the Eugenics Wars being explained away, they never would have cleared the books to be published.
Most of all, the concept of alternate history is something that I don't think Star Trek has ever purported to do. Some may disagree with me, but I think I'm correct in stating that Star Trek has always portrayed itself, in accordance with Roddenberry's initial concept, as a possible positive future for mankind. Therefore, despite frequent trips into our past, the Trek universe's ancient history has matched exactly with ours; the divergence always lays in the future, with the message that we as a race need to choose the good, not the bad, to have a peaceful, prosperous future.
The Eugenics Wars creates a unique problem for Star Trek. It was TOS's first attempt to describe the near future in great detail, with times and events. Now, at the time, no one could have forseen that Trek would remain for 30 more years; therefore, the selection of 1996 wouldn't be problematic. However, now it puts Star Trek in the position of being, not a possible future, but an alternate universe. It would have nothing to do with our universe whatsoever, and I think that would cause Trek to have less meaning. It would also open the door to further divergence, with writers having room to eliminate and create past events at will. I don't think the TPTB wants this, so I have to conclude that backing away from the Eugenics Wars is their best option.
As to whether or not this board is the right forum, the precise argument I'm making causes it to be the right one. I'm arguing that I think that TPTB have been distancing themselves from the EW, and this particular episode contradicts that perception.
Luigi Novi: "It was Reed’s first action. The only thing he did prior to it was call for Tactical Alert."
Memory lapse on my part. I'd like to promise it won't happen again, but I forget a lot.
Luigi Novi: TUE, are you sure you didn’t get a shot of that neurochemical yourself? The Insectoid ship fired on the Enterprise, that have proven deadly in the past, and Reed was in command. He had EVERY authority to destroy it. My only problem is that he supposedly wanted to disable their impulse manifolds.
I question whether "taking the conn" really gives the person the full authority of the captain if the captain can still be contacted. I could understand if the ship were in IMMEDIATE danger, and Reed had to take action, but the Insectoid ship was in retreat. I would think that destroying an alien ship should be something that the captain should decide. As you say, Reed should have disabled the ship. That would have been acceptable.
I've always assumed that "taking the conn" was akin to saying "just watch the bridge to make sure nothing happens while I'm gone." There are numerous examples in other series of captains beaming somewhere and the person on the bridge calling the captain for instructions.
TUE
Luigi Novi: I think it would be easier to simply write off Spock’s one comment in Space Seed that they were the “last world war” as a mistake on his part. He made on in the teaser of that episode about the possibility of any Earth ships being in that sector, didn’t he?
Jesse: I don't know if Spock said it in the teaser or not, b/c I just re-watched Act 1, right after the opening credits. He may have said it there too.
Luigi Novi: Actually, I mistyped. That should be “he made one in the teaser of that episode.” What I was trying to say, Jesse, was that the comment about the last World War could be a mistake because Spock made another mistake in the teaser when he said that there couldn’t be any Earth ships in that sector. Kirk then smirked when the Botany Bay showed up on the viewer, and Spock asked him why he took such pleasure in him being wrong.
Jesse: 2. In the VOY episode "Future's End," the Voyager crew lands in California in 1996. Did anyone see any evidence that a viscious war, "the last of our so-called world wars," had just been concluded? Did Janeway or any of her crew talk about it, saying things like "Gee, sure looks pretty good, considering that the Eugenics Wars just ended"? According to Trek chronology, Khan and his men should just have been ousted at this point.
Luigi Novi: The most commonly promoted explanation for this—which is perfectly reasonable in my opinion—is that the changes wrought on the timeline by Starling’s acquisition of the Aeon precluded the Eugenics Wars. We know, for example, that his procurement of the Aeon caused him to become the creator of the barcode scanner, the Internet, etc. which we know is a change in the timeline, so maybe the negation of the EW were another.
The Undesirable Element: I could understand if the ship were in IMMEDIATE danger, and Reed had to take action, but the Insectoid ship was in retreat.
Luigi Novi: Which means they could’ve given away the Enterprise’s position, and threatened to bring reinforcements. They were about to open a subspace vortex, so waiting for the Captain just wasn’t practical.
Luigi: My only problem is that he supposedly wanted to disable their impulse manifolds.
No, he was trying to disable their warp engines, as per his conversation with Hayes. Unfortunately, he destroyed the ship instead.
From the It's-about-time Department
Nice use of the Vulcan Nerve Pinch during the mutiny.
NANJAQ
What and How did Hayes' video games (sorry... Simulations) show the weakness?
Did the major try attacking the computer enemy ship over and over again and seeing what did the most damage? I am a bit confused on the reasoning for this. In order for the computer to calculate if a couple of torpedos would do the trick, the computer would have had the specs on the ship which should show that the areas would be able to be damaged without the need for Hayes' video game in the first place.
Possible Nit
Look out Archer! It's Luigi's Nit Formatting Goo!!
Did the goo that gets Archer in the side of his head go all the way down his cheek that the red swelled up spot showed?
At last the answers to who was behind the conspiracy in the TNG episode "Conspiracy"
Also, maybe the dead insects I have seen aren't big enough, but it looks like the insectoid that Phlox tries to save is rubber or plastic. It just looked too stiff when being handled. If I bend the leg of a dead spider (yes, I know, not an insect), or a fly or such, the leg would be stay bent because I basically broke it. The toy bug that Phlox holds looks like a toy bug.
Luigi: My only problem is that he supposedly wanted to disable their impulse manifolds.
ScottN: No, he was trying to disable their warp engines, as per his conversation with Hayes. Unfortunately, he destroyed the ship instead.
Luigi Novi: His conversation with Hayes concerned the shields and the impulse engines, not the warp engines. Reed told him he wanted him to look for weaknesses in their shields, not play more games, and Hayes responded that the simulation was not exactly a game, that it showed that the Insectoid ships have minimum shields around their impulse manifolds, and that a pair of torpedoes should be enough to take out the engines.
Torque, Son of Keplar: What and How did Hayes' video games show the weakness? Did the major try attacking the computer enemy ship over and over again and seeing what did the most damage? I am a bit confused on the reasoning for this. In order for the computer to calculate if a couple of torpedos would do the trick, the computer would have had the specs on the ship which should show that the areas would be able to be damaged without the need for Hayes' video game in the first place.
Luigi Novi: The Enterprise’s scans of the Xindi ships during their previous encounters with them may have yielded the knowledge that the shields in that area were minimal. The simulation simply provides a visual explanation of this to Reed.
Torque: Look out Archer! It's Luigi's Nit Formatting Goo!!
Luigi Novi: Torque, maybe you can be the keeper of the funny heading torch in April. There’s two new episodes being shown that month (on the 21st and the 28th), and since I won’t be around here, you can fill the void.
Torque: Did the goo that gets Archer in the side of his head go all the way down his cheek that the red swelled up spot showed?
Luigi Novi: That’s area that got sprayed, and he may have smeared it more when he instinctively put his hand there. Besides, irritation can spread to other areas.
Torque: Also, maybe the dead insects I have seen aren't big enough, but it looks like the insectoid that Phlox tries to save is rubber or plastic. It just looked too stiff when being handled. If I bend the leg of a dead spider (yes, I know, not an insect), or a fly or such, the leg would be stay bent because I basically broke it. The toy bug that Phlox holds looks like a toy bug.
Luigi Novi: Could be rigor mortis. Who knows how different an alien anatomy might be?
Sparrow47 - Trip says the Xindi ship lost much of its antimatter in the crash. How did this happen? Did it evaporate somehow? Did it leak? If so, shouldn't that have put a sizable hole in the ship?
In a DS9 episode (Battlelines?) a runabout is crashing so they eject the anti-matter so the containment unit won't rupture in the crash and blow them to smithereens. Maybe the Xindi do the same thing when crashing?
The Man From Space - One more dose and he would have taken the Rug-Bugs back to Enterprise and made them members of the crew.
Now that might have been an interesting story. Why did 'Mother' Archer insist on leaving the Xindi hachlings on a ship that could have been a death trap? Why not evacuate them to a working vessel? Then we could have worked in how the crew feels about having these potentially dangerous Xindi on the ship itself and the possible danger they might pose as they get older.
Luigi - If the Insectoids evolved on the same homeworld as the Primates, Arboreals, Reptilians, Amphibians and Avians, then shouldn’t the eggs need an atmosphere? It’s not like the Insectoids evolved in an atmosphere, did they?
errrrr, I think you miswrote that last line.
Keith Alan Morgan: You're on an enemy alien ship, an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere starts filling up the room and then you open your helmet. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB, DUMB.
Luigi Novi: Why is this bad, Keith? Does this cause the bends?
Only if the pressure outside the suits is much lower than the pressure inside the suits.
However I was looking at it from the standpoint of someone who has watched & read many stories where people in an alien or unknown environment remove their main sources of protection because then something nasty can, & usually does, happen to them.
For instance. If Archer was still wearing his helmet then the Xindi goo never would have affected him and the story would be entirely different.
TJ, Jesse & Luigi. Thanks for correcting me on Mutiny vs. Barratry.
There were holes in the ship. The first time T’Pol visits Archer in the hatchery in Act 2, he tells her that there were breaches in the outer hull. That kinda happens when you make an emergency landing on a planet after one of your nacelles fractures (as Trip tells Archer in the closing scene of Act 2). Luigi Novi
Holes incured by damage are slightly different from holes incured by matter/anti-matter reactions, as the latter tend to not leave your ship intact so much.
Maybe the reserves aren’t in the engine, but in a container that can be fed to both the engine and the torpedoes. Luigi Novi
That's possible, although it still strikes me as being overly complicated.
In a DS9 episode (Battlelines?) a runabout is crashing so they eject the anti-matter so the containment unit won't rupture in the crash and blow them to smithereens. Maybe the Xindi do the same thing when crashing? KAM
First, "Battlelines" is correct. Second, that's a good explanation. Hoever, if the antimatter was ejected, it stands to reason that it should be floating around somewhere. If so, it would have been nice to have a line about why it couldn't have been found and restored without using the Enterprise's reserves.
Trip says the Xindi ship lost much of its antimatter in the crash. How did this happen? Did it evaporate somehow? Did it leak? If so, shouldn't that have put a sizable hole in the ship? - Sparrow47
There were holes in the ship... - Luigi
I think what Sparrow meant is that this was antimatter that was lost. Shouldn't one particle coming in contact with regular matter cause a huge explosion? Unless, as someone postulated, the antimatter was ejected in its container at some point.
We’ve seen their torpedoes in many episodes before, such as and Fight or Flight and Acquisition. In the former, we actually saw the automatic loading of the torpedoes in the tube prior to firing. - Luigi
But these episodes were before Enterprise was armed with photonic torpedoes in The Expanse, which I think was Torque's point. However, I see no reason Enterprise can't be armed with both kinds.
During the second ruse, they dragged Degra to the bridge, and when Degra saw the red giant on the main viewer, he totally lost it, screaming that they’ll never get close to the weapon, and that their defense perimeter will destroy them. - Luigi
I recall Degra's comment about the defense perimeter, but I don't recall him saying anything specifically about the weapon, though I could be mistaken. Also, the Captain's Log near the end has Archer saying that "hopefully the journey to Azati Prime will be the final leg in [their] search for the Xindi weapon." To me this indicates that while there's a good indication that the weapon is there, they can't be certain.
Moreover, when Archer first told her and Trip of his plan in the ready room in the closing scene of Act 1, she said, “What about Azati Prime?” Now she’s arguing that it might be the wrong place? She should be focusing on Archer’s compromised judgment, not his choice of destination. Her comment is totally beside the point. - Luigi
This is all well and good... but this wasn't the issue that I was responding to. You asked, "Didn’t Degra clearly indicate in Act 4 of Stratagem that [the weapon] was [at Azati prime]?" I responded that he didn't "clearly indicate" anything (though he certainly raised their suspicions enough to warrant a search). These latest comments about T'Pol's waffling on the issue wasn't what I was commenting on (because you didn't bring it up until now)... nor is it something I will comment on because I agree with you. However, I don't agree that Degra "clearly indicated" the location of the Xindi weapon.
I agree with the main part of your anti-nit, but don’t think Polanski is the best example to illustrate it, because while some people may not know that the sex was forced, many others like myself do. - Luigi
Just as I'm sure many people in the 23rd century were probably aware of the technical "mutiny" aboard NX-01, even if it wasn't officially categorized as one.
It seemed odd to me that when Archer told Trip to see that the hatchery was repaired, Trip and T'Pol immediately started questioning him. He had a good argument about letting the Xindi know that humans aren't as bad as they think. That could potentially pay huge dividends down the road and aid their mission. Why couldn't Trip and T'Pol see this? (and depleting the Enterprise antimatter hadn't even been brought up yet)
I started to think that maybe some alien influence was affecting the crew and the goo made Archer immune from it. He (at that point) certainly sounded more reasonable than they did. I was kind of disappointed to see that their reaction was genuine. Is the crew really so lacking in compassion and long-range thinking?
Also note that when Archer asked Trip whether he would feel the same if they were primates, Trip seemed stuck for an answer. I'd like to hear the answer.
I liked the fact that Archer wasn't possessed in the usual way. He used his own values, beliefs and experiences to justify protecting the embryos and evidently discarded any contrary values, etc.
If Phlox has the authority under Starfleet regulations to relieve the captain, shouldn't the MACOs be obeying him? If he had pressed the issue and ordered the MACOs to take the captain to sickbay, I think he could have succeeded. The MACOs follow the chain of command.
Summerfield: T'Pol stated their command and control systems to be almost completely decentralized. Interesting contrast.
Luigi Novi: Which Act or scene was this? I looked for it but couldn’t find it at all.
Just as Archer is about to get hit with the goo, T'Pol says something to the effect of there being no bridge aboard the ship and the functions being spread around the entire ship. I can't remember the exact wording. This may be what Summerfield was referring to.
Luigi Novi: There were holes in the ship. The first time T’Pol visits Archer in the hatchery in Act 2, he tells her that there were breaches in the outer hull. That kinda happens when you make an emergency landing on a planet after one of your nacelles fractures (as Trip tells Archer in the closing scene of Act 2).
Sparrow47: Holes incured by damage are slightly different from holes incured by matter/anti-matter reactions, as the latter tend to not leave your ship intact so much.
Luigi Novi: No one said anything about matter/antimatter reactions. They said one of their nacelles fractured and that they crash landed.
Sparrow47: That's possible, although it still strikes me as being overly complicated.
Luigi Novi: I dunno, I think it kinda makes sense to me, because keeping a full compliment of torpedoes, each already filled with antimatter, might be more dangerous. You can eject one antimatter storage container (or two, if you want to eject that which is in the warp core—as when you eject the core itself), but ejecting all torpedoes might be a bit difficult.
Darth Sarcasm: I think what Sparrow meant is that this was antimatter that was lost. Shouldn't one particle coming in contact with regular matter cause a huge explosion? Unless, as someone postulated, the antimatter was ejected in its container at some point.
Luigi Novi: Or ejected into the vacuum of space.
Darth Sarcasm: But these episodes were before Enterprise was armed with photonic torpedoes in The Expanse, which I think was Torque's point.
Luigi Novi: Oh yeah. Have we never seen torpedoes in the Armory during the third season prior to this episode?
Luigi Novi: During the second ruse, they dragged Degra to the bridge, and when Degra saw the red giant on the main viewer, he totally lost it, screaming that they’ll never get close to the weapon, and that their defense perimeter will destroy them.
Darth Sarcasm: I recall Degra's comment about the defense perimeter, but I don't recall him saying anything specifically about the weapon, though I could be mistaken.
Luigi Novi: I reviewed it when writing the above response, Darth. He said what I wrote above.
Nove Rockhoomer: Just as Archer is about to get hit with the goo, T'Pol says something to the effect of there being no bridge aboard the ship and the functions being spread around the entire ship. I can't remember the exact wording. This may be what Summerfield was referring to.
Luigi Novi: Got it, thanks.
Archer: “Did you find their bridge?”
T’Pol: “I’m not certain there is one. Their command functions appear to be distributed throughout various…”
Egg: “Squirt!”
TUE: I've always assumed that "taking the conn" was akin to saying "just watch the bridge to make sure nothing happens while I'm gone." There are numerous examples in other series of captains beaming somewhere and the person on the bridge calling the captain for instructions.
I think each situation varies. As long as the captain can be reached and it's not a critical situation, perhaps etiquette or regulations require that the officer of the watch seek the captain's direction. However, in this case, the entire mission would have been jeopardized if Reed had failed to act. When the captain wasn't immediately available, Reed acted on his judgement.
Sparrow47: So, after having not seen the ship ballcaps since early in the first season, it's mighty convenient that they managed to drag one out for T'Pol to wear in order to fool the MACOs in the Armory!
Luigi Novi: Yeah, really. Usually when the creators write contrived scenes with T’Pol, it involves her taking clothing off.
TUE: Archer makes a big deal about the Xindi-Insectoid babies needing antimatter from Enterprise in order to survive…
Luigi Novi: Thank god they didn’t use the original script, where he suggested breast feeding them after they hatched.
Luigi Novi: The most commonly promoted explanation for this—which is perfectly reasonable in my opinion—is that the changes wrought on the timeline by Starling’s acquisition of the Aeon precluded the Eugenics Wars. We know, for example, that his procurement of the Aeon caused him to become the creator of the barcode scanner, the Internet, etc. which we know is a change in the timeline, so maybe the negation of the EW were another.
I suppose...your explanation actually makes perfect sense, in the context of what "Future's End" was about. Also, since I believe that even minute changes in the present would cause massive changes in the future (that's chaos theory for you), I would have to say that Starling's changes could have averted the EW.
Alright, I give up. I can't prove that the creators are trying to distance themselves from the EW. However, my other premise remains solid: if the creators still believe that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the early 1990s, we are now talking about the Trek Universe being an alternate universe. As far as I'm aware, that's a viewpoint that TPTB have never advanced--in fact, I submit that such a viewpoint would fundamentally change what Star Trek is all about.
No one said anything about matter/antimatter reactions. They said one of their nacelles fractured and that they crash landed. - Luigi
Here is what Sparrow initially wrote:"Trip says the Xindi ship lost much of its antimatter in the crash. How did this happen? Did it evaporate somehow? Did it leak? If so, shouldn't that have put a sizable hole in the ship?"
According to Trip, they lost the antimatter "in the crash." He doesn't say they must have ejected it before the crash or anything like that. So Sparrow's next point was to question how they lost that antimatter... if it leaked somehow, then there would have been considerably more damage ("a sizable hole") than we saw.
I reviewed it when writing the above response, Darth. He said what I wrote above. - Luigi
I acknowledged that my memory may be fuzzy.
In any case, for all they know the weapon was there, but isn't there any longer, which could be T'Pol's point. Presumably the weapon is somewhat easy to move (since they have to get it to Earth quick enough that it won't be destroyed enroute). T'Pol could merely have been telling Archer, "Yes, we may have enough antimatter to reach Azati Prime, but what if the weapon is no longer there, and we need to chase a new lead? What will we do then?"
Jesse - However, my other premise remains solid: if the creators still believe that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the early 1990s, we are now talking about the Trek Universe being an alternate universe. As far as I'm aware, that's a viewpoint that TPTB have never advanced--in fact, I submit that such a viewpoint would fundamentally change what Star Trek is all about.
As Phil pointed out in the Classic Guide Khan appeared to be about 30, so if he was 30 in 1996 then he would have been born in 1966 & the genetic engineering would have had to been going on at around the time that Star Trek was being made. Therefore, since at least Space Seed, Star Trek has taken place in an alternate universe.
At one point, Hayes addressed Archer by his surname ("Archer, you better take a look at this.") I would have thought that Hayes, who is a sub-ordinate, would have addressed Archer as "Captain" or "Sir".
KAM: As Phil pointed out in the Classic Guide Khan appeared to be about 30, so if he was 30 in 1996 then he would have been born in 1966 & the genetic engineering would have had to been going on at around the time that Star Trek was being made. Therefore, since at least Space Seed, Star Trek has taken place in an alternate universe.
Phil didn't say that Khan was engineered in the 1960s. Phil pointed out that (a) Khan appeared to be about 35 and that (b) there was no mention of Khan and his followers aging rapidly as part of their genetic engineering. On the basis of these two assumptions, Phil pointed out a good nit, namely, that Khan would have to have been engineered in the 1960s if both suppositions were true.
However, Phil was merely speculating as to Khan's age. He (Khan) could have been in his early twenties at the time of "Space Seed," but due to some quirk not understood by 20th-century genetic scientists he rapidly ages. (I believe that Dolly, the cloned sheep, aged faster than a "natural" sheep. Correct me if I'm wrong.) Or perhaps his creators, eager to tap his potential, designed him to age rapidly so they didn't have to wait for years and years for him to mature. So setting his birthdate in the 1960s is pure conjecture.
Also, for all we know, based on Star Trek's famous concept of "switch the DNA and watch the person change," perhaps Khan was born as a normal child and then, maybe in his teens, was subjected to some radical kind of gene therapy that enhanced his strength and mind. In other words, he wasn't genetically engineered from scratch. So it's possible then that he was born in the 1960s but the genetic procedures didn't occur until much later, maybe in the late 1970s or early 80s.
Therefore, this nit in Phil's guide does NOT prove that Star Trek was taking place in an alternate universe since the 1960s. Even if we were to say that Khan was genetically engineered in the 1960s, the creators need only add the disclaimer that the entire "superman" program took place in absolute secrecy with no public knowledge and the alternate-universe necessity goes right out the window. But, when we start talking about a global war, then we can no longer believe that we're in the same universe, unless some serious revision takes place.
Good point, though. :-)
When Tucker goes to talk with T'Pol, Corporal Chang stops him. Tucker tells Chang that he's there under Phlox's orders. ...
I like Daniel Dae Kim in all the roles he plays, and he's played enough military types that I suspect he hated this scene. One of the standard, General Orders should be "To contact the authority in charge in any case not covered by instruction." I can't believe a guard would not communicate to his boss this unusual situation.
Margie: Check out (or maybe you shouldn't) an episode of the original (not the '90's version) of The Outer Limits called "The Zanti Misfits." It concerned giant ants, the size of cats, who were exiled to Earth from the planet Zanti. If the Xindi insectoids from "Hatchery" gave you the willies...
For some reason, I bought a life-size version of one of those. I keep it in the box because it is the creepiest thing I've ever seen. Those bug eyes, the face, the bee body, the spider legs, and a beard!! It is awesome!
Yuck! No thanks!
I find it appaling that after visiting an crashed alien ship on an unexplored world with one's EV helmet off, no one mentions decontamination procedures.
And Phlox really should've done a more through analysis of the goo that hit Archer. I know hindsight's 20/20, but still.
Archer leaving Hayes in command of the ship while he's on the planet's surface deserves some scrutiny. I realize that Archer, at this stage in the episode, feels that Hayes is the only officer he can trust. Leaving him in command of the ship, however, is just another example of poor judgement on Archer's part. Hayes is a MACO officer, not a Starfleet officer!! He has not had any training in Starship Command or Operations (at least none that has been either directly mentioned, or implied, in any episode.) Does it seem wise to leave someone in command who is not a qualified bridge officer? What happens if a Xindi ship pops up? Picture the following scenario:
Mayweather: Major, Xindi vessel closing in on us! Awaiting orders!
Hayes: Ahhh, helm, turn the ship left, yeah, thats it, and start zigzagging it around a little. Tactical officer, better shoot some torpedoes as well, use those dispersal patterns that Reed likes using, ah, you know the proper code names right? Just fire them the way Reed does! Oh yeah, raise shi-(at this point, the Xindi fire on and destroy Enterprise!)
The point I'm trying to make is that neither Hayes or any of his MACOs are qualified to operate on the bridge of a Starship, and should not be running the bridge, period! Archer would have been wiser to leave Mayweather in command, at least he's a qualified bridge officer (then again, if he had, Mayweather probably would have yeilded to T'Pol and Reed, and there would have been no dramatic bridge takeover scene!)
How do we know they're not qualified to run starships? Besides, you don't have to tell the helm which direction to go. Captains often just say, "Evasive maneuvers!"
Its never been stated that they have had training in bridge operations. If they had, you would think the writers would give a line or two in script indicating they had such qualifications. To use a real life example, U.S. Marines serve aboard Navy vessels, but they are not trained in how to run a ship. They are assigned there primarily for provost duties. Same for the MACO's. They provide assistence during away missions or possibly on board invasions, but little else.
Its never been stated that they have had training in bridge operations. - Justin ODonnell
Heck, judging by the fact that it was several months before they even met the Communications Officer, I'd say they might not even have been to the Bridge, much less been trained on it.
Justin O'Donnell: To use a real life example, U.S. Marines serve aboard Navy vessels, but they are not trained in how to run a ship. They are assigned there primarily for provost duties. Same for the MACO's.
Luigi Novi: Again, how do you know this?
Luigi, is your question how do you know this for the marines or for the MACOs?
Maybe justin could answer you better if that is clarified.
I have a relative who is a Marine, and he assured me that they DO NOT receive training in terms or navigation, engineering, piloting. etc. They function as Military Police for the ship, and that's it!
My question is, how does Justin know that this fact about the Marines also holds true for the MACOs? He says no indication was given that they have this training. But doesn't this episode serve as that indication?
I think Justin is making a presumption based on his understanding of current military training, and anything beyond that is a nit. Kinda like when you questioned why Degra would be in charge of the design and testing of the weapon as well as in command of his ship.
You're right, we should assume that the fact that we see these things in the episodes should serve as evidence that they simply operate things differently than organizations in the 21st century. It's when its an internal inconsistency that it should be nitted and questioned.
I disagree. I think it serves as evidence that the writers can't be bothered with the details that make a scenario credible. And to me, that's just as much a nit as internal inconsistencies.
Just because the writers choose not to portray a situation, hierarchy or procedure identically to the way its done in the current American military doesn't necessarily mean they "can't be bothered with the details that make a scenario credible."
Perhaps in the writers' minds, training Marine-type operatives in the skills of starship command makes sense.
I think "why?" is a legitimate question, and the writers' "ipse dixit" doesn't cut it. Why train the grunt to a level second only to the Captain when you have a whole complement of bridge officers? Why are guys like Travis even there?
Oh, wait . . .
I would hardly qualify a Major as a "grunt."
OK, then, a "ground-pounder" instead of a "grunt".
How about a "housecarl?"
I liked this episode and I think it did better than most 'captain goes crazy' episodes like e.g. "Lonely Among Us" (TNG) because Archer actually gave plausible reasons for his actions - at least at first.
About the Eugenics Wars: I found it interesting that the creators decided to put Archer's great-grandfather in North Africa, given that "Space Seed" described the genetic supermen to have taken over Asia (of course, this doesn't preclude a battleground in North Africa, but still...) I wonder if this was originally intended to be the North Africa campaign from WW2, until they realised that then it would be Archer's great-great-great-great-great grandfather, which isn't as snappy...
Good continuity though. (Did I actually say that about an Enterprise episode?!)
Not a bad episode. Kind of reminded me of Conspiracy (TNG) at the end, and any episode of Voyager where Janeway acted irrational. Was that ever ep? Anyway, it was okay, but it didn't seem to move events anywhere. Just a story about the captain going a little wild and the crew taking over. I guess the big story is the next ep.
Was there atmosphere in that room connecting to the hatchery before Reed, Trip, and T'Pol went in? If there was, why didn't they detect it? And if there wasn't, why would is pressurize once they went in?
When Reed, Trip, and T'Pol take the Armory, the just stun the MACOs and start handing out weapons. Wouldn't it be a good idea to explain to Reed's men what exactly they're doing?
Hey, Travis actually did something. Go Mayweather!
TUE: Archer makes a big deal about the Xindi-Insectoid babies needing antimatter from Enterprise in order to survive. At the end of the episode, the Insectoids are born and we find out that they will survive until the next ship arrives. But if I'm not mistaken, Trip got to Archer in time to retrieve the antimatter. So how come the babies didn't die?
I was under the impression that they needed the antimatter to get the ship up and running again, not necessarily to keep the Insectoids alive.
Luigi Novi: In the recap in the teaser, one clip shows a battle between the Enterprise and the Insectoid ships, with an off-camera Reed telling a grayed Trip that one was damaged, and Trip, in command, ordering to target the other one. That scene was from Act 4 of Twilight, in a future that in all probability was undone by the end of that episode. Why did they show this in the recap?
Help remind us that the Insectoids are bad guys.
Luigi Novi: Under nits for the previous episode, I pointed out that Phlox is writing a letter to Dr. Lucas, and apologizing for not writing sooner, despite the lack of any communication seen between Archer and Admiral Forrest, or any indication that the Enterprise has been deploying subspace amplifiers. In this episode, it happens again. When Archer threatens to charge T’Pol with insubordination at the end of Act 2, she suggests that he contact Starfleet and discuss it with Admiral Forrest.
They could do it in Twilight.
Luigi Novi: If Reed just wants to disable the attacking Insectoid ship’s impulse manifolds near the end of Act 3, why does he order the torpedoes to be fired at maximum yield?
I don't think he wanted to take the chance of the Xindi ship escaping.
Torque, Son of Keplar:Apparently the Enterprise still uses the old fashion torpedos. When the Major and Reed are discussing the battle simulation, you can see two of them on the launch racks.
Luigi Novi: We’ve seen their torpedoes in many episodes before, such as and Fight or Flight and Acquisition. In the former, we actually saw the automatic loading of the torpedoes in the tube prior to firing.
I think he meant since the photonic torpedoes arrived. Though I know we see some of the older more conventional torpedoes in Sacred Realm.
Sparrow47: So, after having not seen the ship ballcaps since early in the first season, it's mighty convenient that they managed to drag one out for T'Pol to wear in order to fool the MACOs in the Armory!
What, you think the jettisoned all of the caps out into space or something? Resequenced them? Why wouldn't the caps still be on the ship?
I mean Chosen Realm
JoshM: They could do it in Twilight.
Luigi Novi: They spoke to Starfleet from the Enterprise in the Expanse? And where was Starfleet, given that Earth was destroyed?
Earth wasn't destroyed, yet. Admiral Forrest contacts Enterprise shortly after Archer's injury, relieving him of command.